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afk314
02-27-2010, 09:37 PM
Hi all,

I know this is really bushing the limits of this forum (in terms of equipment if not general newbness) but bare with me if possible.

I am shooting a 10/22 with a Kidd Innovative trigger (in the range of 10 oz) with a Tactical Solutions barrel. I'm trying to determine what the weakness is - my skill or the gun. I've been shooting many different ammos - with Eley Team and Wolf Match Extra as the best of what I've used. Out of five shots, I'll generally have 1-2 in the X and the rest in the 9 ring. It seems like I could theoretically be shooting a single-hole at 50 yards, but its close to an inch. I know it is impossible for anyone to say anything without shooting it - but what would your experience say? Are dime-sized 50y 5-shot groups possible with gear at this level?

I'm loving shooting from the bench, and may get more involved with a proper .22 bench gun, but not totally sure yet. Nobody at my local range is much of a bench .22 shooter so I can't just have them shoot the gun and give me more data points..

All info is 50y - 5 shot groups using sandbags at front and back,

Don't even know if this is a reasonable question, but..

-Adam

Bill Wynne
02-27-2010, 10:24 PM
Adam,

A tricked out 10/22 like you have will shoot very good compared to most 22 rifles. Please understand, it is not in the same class as a tricked out custom bolt action benchrest rifle.

A 10/22 on a good day will shoot 3/4 inch at 50 yards and maybe just a little better on its' best day. Whereas a good 22 bolt action benchrest rifle with a custom barrel would be able to shoot less than 1/2 that.

We have been working on the FUN-fire target for rifles just like yours. Many of us have a favorite factory rifle that could shoot that target well.

That 10/22 can teach you a lot about benchrest shooting. You can learn things about the wind and how to hold your rifle. I have a CZ 452 that got me into shooting rimfire benchrest.

Concho Bill

TangoTwo
02-28-2010, 06:36 AM
Adam,

Not really familiar with a tricked out 10-22, but like Bill said, it won't compete with bench rifle. You may get better groups with a higher grade ammo, or not. Are you using flags? A bullet will move a long ways with just a little help from the wind. Without flags you will never know how well the rifle is shooting. Most guys use a 1/4" group as the maximum size acceptable to be competitive.

Where are you located? There may be a range near you or an established shooter you could use for a mentor. Get to a match and ask questions. Don't buy anything until you've been to a match to see what is being used.

Welcome to the forum. Don't be discouraged when somebody tells you that you can't compete with a 10-22 or Remchester, and they will tell you.;)

Ken Henderson

Picher
02-28-2010, 07:06 AM
I've had more than a bit of experience with 10-22s and have several how-to-accurize articles on them at RimfireCentral.com - Tips and Tricks Forum.

Buying a great barrel and trigger will help, but there's still a lot needed to achieve top accuracy from a 10-22. Glassbedding helps if done right, but probably the most difficult action to bed. The rifle has only one action screw, so it needs a good pressure point in the forend that provides about 8 lbs of uplift.

Other necessary work includes headspacing the bolt to .40"; altering the firing pin nose to provide better ignition; pinning or otherwise staking the firing pin to minimize upward movement at impact; and tuning the extractor to hold rims firmly in the bolt recess.

If that is done and the barrel is good, you just need to find ammo the rifle likes and practice your benchrest skills. A properly tuned 10-22 should make most groups under 1/2" unless the action accumulates too much gunk. Keep it clean and use dry lubes only. The most critical areas to clean are the bolt face and breech.

Picher

David Valdina
02-28-2010, 07:53 AM
RimfireCentral.com has a lot of info on the Ruger 10/22 rifles. That site has many thousand members and most are pretty helpful.

HuskerP7M8
02-28-2010, 10:24 AM
Adam,

After reading your post I gathered the data I have available over the last two years involving 10/22ís. I could have gone back further but figured I could make some general observations based on the 1,500 or so rounds of testing with the 10/22 platform during that time period.

This testing included 4 10/22ís, 1 Volquartsen Cheetah, and 1 Ruger Charger with none of them having any mods done to the receiver or bolt, other than a couple where I staked the firing pin or modified the extractor.
A modified Kidd trigger set at 4 or 6 ozís was exchanged between all of them except the Cheetah.
None of them were bedded but I did tinker with some of them by using a pressure pad in the barrel channel.
The scopes used were a Weaver T-36, Leupold 24X, Leupold 40X, and a cheap 3x9 Variable in a couple of instances.
The barrels included 4 Volquartsens (2 LW Tensioned & 2 SS Match), 1 Lilja, and 1 Kidd. Iím familiar with your Tac-Sol barrel but have never shot one. Based on what Iíve read about it and doing my best to separate fact from fiction....I donít feel itís as good as what Iíve used, but thatís my opinion only.

Almost all of the testing was conducted indoors at 25yds or 50yds and the last time I fired a 10/22 was in my new tunnel while calibrating my 2 chronographs. http://www.benchrest.com/forums/blog.php?b=71

Thus far Iíve never had a 10/22 that wouldnít shoot in the low .4 to .5 range with minimal work, custom barrel, and mid to match grade ammo. The best accuracy Iíve ever achieved is in the low .3ís with higher grades of match ammo and the worst was with trash like ďGolden BulletsĒ or ďThunderboltsĒ which Iíve never got below .9Ē.

Your 10/22 should be shooting better and the two most obvious sources of error in your case are probably barrel or wind related in my opinion, but it could be any number of other things too. Iíve found it to be almost impossible to diagnose from afar.

I donít know if itís possible to approach the .25Ē range or even get below .3Ē because Iím not going to devote the time or money to try. I am going to mount one in a rail gun in the near future to see what happens though.

BTW I donít think your questions are unreasonable. Youíll be using many of the same principles used in tuning dedicated Bench guns trying to find more accuracy and developing some of the same skills. As Bill and Ken said, donít be discouraged if someone eventually tells you to go away. In my case, Iíd rather answer questions like yours than some of the others Iíve seen posted. I donít care if you have a Daisy Red Ryder or an $11,000 Calfee.....accuracy is accuracy and itís just a range of scale dependent on the firearm. Have fun and progress at your own pace!

Going back to lurking now. Good Luck!

Landy

ifldned
02-28-2010, 05:08 PM
Adam, is your rifle a new rifle with the new components added or a used rifle?
And, what power scope are you shooting and the brand? I think you rifle is capable of 5 shot .5 inch groups with the right ammo and set up correctly.
ifldned

tim
02-28-2010, 05:49 PM
Adam, I kind of play with a 10/22T but shoot a fair amount of BR. The 10/22 platform is still at the mercy[compared to a bolt type BR gun] of a so so bbl mounting system, a trigger that is a tough one to work around, bedding that you can only do so much with, and a chamber and lockup system that won't match a quality bolt action. Those are some pretty big obstacles but these guns can get to 1/2" 50yard levels with some smaller groups on occaision, so they're pretty good but this is a very diffacult discipline, translation, OK for club stuff but it's gonna fall of against the German bolt guns or purpose built stuff.

Stryker60
02-28-2010, 05:49 PM
Hi all,

I know this is really bushing the limits of this forum (in terms of equipment if not general newbness) but bare with me if possible.

I am shooting a 10/22 with a Kidd Innovative trigger (in the range of 10 oz) with a Tactical Solutions barrel. I'm trying to determine what the weakness is - my skill or the gun. I've been shooting many different ammos - with Eley Team and Wolf Match Extra as the best of what I've used. Out of five shots, I'll generally have 1-2 in the X and the rest in the 9 ring. It seems like I could theoretically be shooting a single-hole at 50 yards, but its close to an inch. I know it is impossible for anyone to say anything without shooting it - but what would your experience say? Are dime-sized 50y 5-shot groups possible with gear at this level?

I'm loving shooting from the bench, and may get more involved with a proper .22 bench gun, but not totally sure yet. Nobody at my local range is much of a bench .22 shooter so I can't just have them shoot the gun and give me more data points..

All info is 50y - 5 shot groups using sandbags at front and back,

Don't even know if this is a reasonable question, but..

-Adam

No offense meant here, but have you been able to shoot better groups with another rifle? If so, it may be your barrel. TacSol barrels have been the subject of many posts over on Rimfire Central. Their primary claim to fame is being one of the first lightweight aftermarket barrels offering a threaded muzzle for suppressors. Many purchased them and expected perfect functioning with ALL ammo, something all but impossible with anything approaching a match chamber. A recent post on RFC reported that the later barrels (after 2008) featured a "proprietary" chamber, larger than a Bentz but smaller than a sporting chamber. Not a good situation for accuracy, but better for functioning with any ammo carried by Walmart.

As others have said, check RFC (especially Picher's posts) to see what you can do to maximize your efforts with your barrel. If that does not meet your expectations, maybe a different barrel is in order.

Stryker60

afk314
03-01-2010, 06:05 PM
I love forums like these, so many great people willing to share info. Much appreciated!

Here is a little more background. The 10/22 has had many thousands of rounds through it before the new barrel. I don't do a good job of cleaning the action, but I will finally dig in and really do that in the next few days. Out of irritation, I ordered a Kidd 20" barrel yesterday, it shipped today, and I guess I will be learning something soon - don't know exactly what I'll be learning, but..

Today I went to the range again and shot 5-shot groups on bags. I had my tightest group today - about .5" - one rather ragged hole. Again at 50y. However, that was one group out of about 20. Nothing else was nearly this good - some 1.5" or more! When I was talking to the range master, he thought that if the barrel could do .5" even once - then it'll shoot a .5" group every time if all the other variables are aligned. My gut feeling was this happened to be a lucky cluster. Nothing I shot afterwards looked much like it - with a number of rounds through the 5 or 6 ring (!!). I'm really enjoying shooting and though I'm at the range, my state of mind is closer to doing yoga or meditating - just massive amounts of concentration and attention to detail. I'm not popping off shots and wondering why they are all over the place - I'm dissecting the bulls-eye through the cross hair, shooting between heart beats, and staying in the flow... Do you agree with the range master? If it'll shoot a .5" on 1/100 targets then in the right hands, it'll do it every time (or at least 80% of the time)?

Again, the Ruger is just a stock model with a Kidd Trigger and a Hogue stock. Nothing else has been done (except a bolt buffer). I'll clean it thoroughly before I mount the Kidd and will report back what happens either way. I'd love to have the rifle modified by someone who knows what they are doing if it isn't too expensive. But I also want a Anschutz 64 - just so I can begin to getting back to technique rather than focusing on tools. Sadly though - I can my need for accuracy is going to push me down some rabbit holes that I'm not too excited about. I like the Zen of this. I'm an engineer and don't want to take all that analytical stuff with me to the range. But I think I am headed there anyway!

TangoTwo
03-01-2010, 06:24 PM
Adam,

With a factory barrel and the groups you desribe that .5" doesn't sound like it will be the norm. A new barrel should help. A model 54 Anschutz or a Suhl would serve you better for bench shooting than a 64.

Are you using flags?

Ken

HuskerP7M8
03-01-2010, 07:04 PM
Do you agree with the range master? If it'll shoot a .5" on 1/100 targets then in the right hands, it'll do it every time (or at least 80% of the time)?

Adam,

IMHO Your range master better stick to those duties he knows something about!
Even the most accurate rifles in the world shot in tunnels by the most experienced shooters will exhibit a variation in group size and since youíre an engineer you should know that those group size measurements will form a bell curve with the rare small and large groups at the 2 to 3 sigma limits.

This is a naturally occurring phenomenon that far too many shooters want to think is somehow controllable , but itís literally impossible to control every variable (known & unknown) while testing. You can decrease the width of the bell curve by eliminating or managing some variables, but it will still always be a curve.

Landy

Travelor
03-02-2010, 08:35 AM
Tactical Solutions barrels do not have match chambers. Change to a Green Mountain (cheaper) or KIDD barrel ( I really like the 18" fluted stainless barrels), bed your action/barrel per the instructions on Rimfire Central and you will be much happier.

Also, get a CPC bolt ( http://community-2.webtv.net/RandyAtCPC/CPC1022BoltRework/ ) or KIDD bolt and drill your receiver to allow cleaning from the breech end.

I would also change stocks as the rubbebrized stock just does not lend itself to bedding. I am partial to Yukon Extreme stocks as I shoot offhand a lot ( http://shootersdiscount.com/cart/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=50 )Bedding was probably the single most important improvement I found. http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231522&highlight=bedding USE EXAMPLE #2


Been there and done that - you do know this is going to be a money pit don't you?
:)

oldguy
03-02-2010, 08:51 AM
My setup has a Butler creek .920 18inch barrel, trigger and bolt work @CPC, Boyd stock, it will shoot a consistent .500 or under at 50 yards using subsonic or match ammo seems to prefer the Aguila brand. I believe with a more skilled shooter it would produce better groups.

The bolt work by Randy @CPC makes the 10/22 super smooth simply a joy to shoot.

pacecil
03-04-2010, 02:37 PM
"Even the most accurate rifles in the world shot in tunnels by the most experienced shooters will exhibit a variation in group size"

Bite your tongue! Haven't you been reading these posts? Don't you know that what a tuner does is narrow that bell curve down. No more variation in groups - just one constant small group size. That's when your rifle is "tuned"!

Picher
03-04-2010, 03:03 PM
I don't think that tuners have much to work with on an 18" fat barrel, especially with a pressure point in the forend. Tuners are probably a waste of money on them, but they look cool.

HuskerP7M8
03-04-2010, 05:57 PM
"Even the most accurate rifles in the world shot in tunnels by the most experienced shooters will exhibit a variation in group size"

Bite your tongue! Haven't you been reading these posts? Don't you know that what a tuner does is narrow that bell curve down. No more variation in groups - just one constant small group size. That's when your rifle is "tuned"!

I posted that statement three days ago and I have difficulty even remembering what I was doing before I took my afternoon nap a couple of hours ago....so I decided to take a look at my diary to understand how I could have made such an outrageous claim.

I came up with these possible answers:

A. I drank two cold beers before supper that night instead of my usual one and I was without doubt....mentally impaired!

B. My bi-polar alter ego Mr. Hyde once again rose to the forefront and tried to discredit my usually well thought out responses on this forum.

C. I totally and inexcusably forgot that rimfires arenít governed by Newtonís laws, nor do they ever demonstrate the randomness present in the rest of nature and science. (I sure hope itís not this one as I would be utterly shamed at having forgotten the number one guiding principle in smallbore accuracy.)

D. All of the above.

Blessed are you all that Iím primarily a lurker. Look what happens when I lose control! :eek:

Landy

afk314
03-06-2010, 09:16 PM
Hi all,

Again, much thanks for your time and energy. I really appreciate it.

I don't remember if I mentioned that I took the Tac Sol barrel back to the gun store where I bought it. They weren't pleased to see me returning it, but they agreed to "shoot it" in back. So they did, at 10 yards, they were seeing at least .3 (no calipers here, this is a straight-forward store) and they eventually saw my point. The barrel was a mess. Don't know if this was just a bad barrel, but I'd be weary of them in the future.

I replaced the barrel last night. I put a 20" Kidd barrel on it. The workmanship on the Kidd is absolutely astonishing. Although it was only $30 more - it is night and day. Of course, the Tac Sol is meant to be low-weight and the Kidd is a heavy match barrel so this is a bit apples to oranges. But I was seriously impressed with the Kidd.

I shot it today with Wolf Match, Eley Club Match, and CCI mini-mag. I didn't see too much of a difference in group size from ammo to ammo - but I assume that is because I am the limiting factor at this point. Out of many targets (25?) my average five-shot group was a .509". This strikes me as about right. I had some low .4's but never had a .3. I had some nasty .7's in there two so the good groups got cancelled out. I was really excited to shoot the new barrel and try the Eley (which is new to me) so my ability to really focus on the shooting was not grade A. I'm also shooting from sand bags but NOT free recoil. Although I might start doing some free-recoil, it makes me feel disconnected from the actual shooting. I'm a little more interested to see what I CAN DO given these constraints. I'm starting to think prone will be the next move for me. I'm talking to a friend about a Feinwerkbau rifle as well as thinking about various 54 action Anschutz rifles.

Anyway, thanks for your help!
Adam

Picher
03-07-2010, 07:12 AM
You should really have an adequate (6-8 lbs) pressure point in the forend, if you don't have one already. It's needed to keep back end of the receiver tightly in the bedding.

Also, 10-22s need to be held fairly tightly against the shoulder when bench shooting. Some folks even hold the forend down; it helps when shooting groups, but not always when shooting matches because it can cause variations in POI from bull to bull.

ifldned
03-14-2010, 05:23 AM
My friend has a 10/22 that regularly shoots 3/16 inch groups at 50 yards,5 shots. It has a shilen barrel and I don't know what else but it is most likely maxed out. He tests it indoors with electronic target system so the accuracy is confirmed. Oh, 3/16 inch = .187 inch.
ifldned

dpapadimitrio@g
03-14-2010, 11:32 AM
Adam,

You mentioned a Hogue stock. These area nice stocks, and great for off hand shooting or plinking. Do to construction, think you can see some flexing if shot from a front rest or sandbags as you've mentioned.

Rather than the sandbags, you may want to try a heavy front rest. If using the Hogue, you may want to place the stock onto the rest closer to the front of the receiver to minimize the flexing that can occur. Would suggest picking up a more "bench rest" suitable stock, or one that tracks better in the bags and try that. Think you will pick up an improvement in group size or at least consistency in group size.

There is also a book on rimfire ammunition out there, "The Rifleman's Guide To Rimfire Ammunition." In the case of the 10/22, think you'll find it interesting reading, to set expectations with the 10/22 and its autoloading variants.

Travelor
03-15-2010, 08:30 AM
Get a wood or composite stock and bed it. Your groups should shrink.

As I said before: Bedding was probably the single most important improvement I found. http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums...hlight=bedding USE EXAMPLE #2

George

W337
03-16-2010, 09:00 PM
For any kind of bench type shooting for accuracy, I would definitely lose the flexible Hogue stock. They are fine for off-hand hunting and 'tacticool' rifles (I own one, on a 'black rifle' build)..... but you need a good wood or fiberglas stock. I would also avoid a laminated stock in the 10/22 format, I can't understand why Ruger makes their 10/22T model with one.

Walnut (DSM) stock or even a Boyds would give you much more consistent bedding of the action. Like Travelor said, If you use a pressure pad under the barrel near the action.....this will help, given how these barrels are mounted.

You're already getting much better groups with the Kidd bbl, so now it's a matter of finding the 'right' ammo, and the small variables that you CAN control.

Definitely get a couple of inexpensive wind flags, and learn to 'read' them. You may be very surprised at what's possible.

Good luck!

mr. nobody
03-18-2010, 01:24 AM
for bench rest shooting i'd get rid of the 10/22 and start over with a great bolt action.

i have a hard time believing anybody has a 10/22 type actioned rifle that will shoot in the .1's regularly!!!!!! .3's are a strectch!!!!! and i mean regularly!!! they may have a dozen pieces of 1000 taqrgets that measure the .1's!!! not ganna do it regularly!!!! sorry. it aint happening. maybe at 25 yards yep!! 50 yards no way in hell!!!!

ifldned
03-18-2010, 02:34 AM
Mr. Nobody, I know it's hard for you to believe that a 10/22 can shoot .187 inch groups. When Ervin told me this I thought he meant at 100 yards. You don't know Ervin. He owns a first class rifle and pistol range and is a mutiple time state champion in many shooting disciplines. I haven't seen him in many years but he promised me he would let me shoot my custom 52 Winchester and 54 Anshutz rifles in the 100 yard wind tunnel he had built with electronic target set up like they use in the olympics. When money and time are not limiting factors I think .187 inch for five shoots at fifty yards isn't even that impressive. A first class benchrest rifle, which my
Winchester is, can shoot half that and my 54 Anshutz, a silhouette rifle has had bench days where I never shot over .187 inch and that's outdoors.
I can't wait to shoot in a tunnel with electronic scoring targets. The only reason I have continued to shoot firearms is because I forever am amazed at what a first class shooter can do in always raising the bar. ifldned

Joe Maisto
03-18-2010, 09:30 AM
I simply use my Canadien Centennial 10/22 with a thumbhole stock, 1x4 scope, Kidd trigger with Eley 10x for squirrels, and am more than happy with that.

oldguy
03-18-2010, 10:04 AM
Butler creek bull barrel, Boyd laminated stock, trigger and bolt work by Randy @CPC. Shoots consistent half inch groups at 50 yards with Aguila match, subsonic or Wolf match. The big difference came with the bolt work, polished and pinned firing pin.

Douglas
03-19-2010, 06:03 AM
At one of our IR50/50 matches we only had 3 shooters show up, need 4 for a sanctioned match. There was a club member shooting on an ajacent range he had a tricked out 10/22, I had seen him and shot next to him in practice many times so I knew he had a pretty decent shooting rifle. We asked him to shoot IR50/50 with us, begged him, told him he could shoot for free. The guy wouldn't have any part of it, never could figure out why. Thanks, Douglas

hulk
03-19-2010, 08:26 AM
Gee, I bet I can answer this riddle.

ifldned
03-19-2010, 04:22 PM
Douglas, I don't know the shooter you had your experience with. I've competed in many sports in my life time and as one progresses up to sports that involve life and death consequences,...." I've raced cars and motorcyles that top out and over 193 mph", as well as being a first class rifle a pistol shooter when I was younger. The trophies and accolades most shooters are competing for don't mean much. Let's face it, there are hardly any professional shooters that make a livelihood out of the sport, let alone shooters who compete on a life and death situation. People that push themselves in sports where life and death are concerned shoot rifles and pistols as a way to relax and for recreation. Maybe your shooting friend was one of these people?
ifldned

Locoweed
03-20-2010, 07:59 AM
I took my Ruger 10-22T and replaced the action with an Anschutz model 54. Then I replaced the barrel with an Anschutz with a Hoehn tuner. Then I replaced the stock with a Kelbly BR stock. Then I mounted a Weaver 36X scope to it. It shoots okay now.

Kirk Ethridge
03-22-2010, 11:54 PM
I've shot a 10/22 in a 50/50 match before... I shot a bit over 240 with only 3 misses,,ie the ones that missed, missed quite far. This was more than 10 yrs ago, but a gunsmith named Voelker (please excuse the spelling) back then shot many 250's with a 10/22 and when Remington came out with that repeater that would remind you of the ruger, he built rifles on that action that shot 250's.

surely somebody remembers him,, he may still be active,

I had won a shilen barrel at a bench shoot back in the 90's and chose the 10/22 drop in they build.. Even put a jewell trigger on it..(Jewell didn't make triggers very long for this action)..the rifle shoots very well, but not competitve. they are fun to shoot though..

just thought you would be interested..

Kirk