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Mike-T
02-23-2010, 12:56 AM
With all the slow motion films of every conceivable object being shot, or slow motion bullets, why is there no slow motion film of a 22 rifle being shot? It might be interesting to see the "vibration" of the barrel in action. There's one of an air rifle, but it's not that good.

martin hammond
02-23-2010, 08:44 AM
mike:) in this wonderful world of engineering and science we no longer have to actually see stars and other formations to know they exist. there are scientific and engineering models that do the same for rifles and barrel vibrations. unfortunately in 2010 many prefer the old wives method over science. however with several 2500's being shot recently I have a sneaky suspicion that is changing.

martin hammond
02-23-2010, 09:13 AM
mike, want to add this, even if their was high speed filming of a barrel vibrating it would be meaningless, as no two vibrate exactly the same.

TangoTwo
02-23-2010, 09:22 AM
mike, want to add this, even if their was high speed filming of a barrel vibrating it would be meaningless, as no two vibrate exactly the same.

Martin,

Wouldn't that knid of negate the engineering models too? If no two barrels are alike, you would have to set up a model for each. Not saying it would not hold true in general, just that the same generality can be applied to a moving picture.

Ken

404tbang
02-23-2010, 06:02 PM
mike:) in this wonderful world of engineering and science we no longer have to actually see stars and other formations to know they exist. there are scientific and engineering models that do the same for rifles and barrel vibrations. unfortunately in 2010 many prefer the old wives method over science. however with several 2500's being shot recently I have a sneaky suspicion that is changing.

Howdy Martin!
The science and engineering models generally work as well as the input of accurate information will allow. This is where the problem is. Sometimes completely brilliant scientists and engineers miss key details in programming computer models. I am not slamming them. It happens. Part of being human.

The need for testing will always exist. Sometimes, to the chagrin of some, old wives methods actually work because they were tested in the real world instead of a computer. The computer certainly makes it easier, if it is programmed with ALL of the correct info.

I can't TELL you how many times I have seen engineers scratch their heads and say with sincere puzzlement, "It works on paper!".

What this usually means at my job, is that the team members will bust themselves making something that won't work correctly get the job done until the engineers or one of us "hillbilly engineers" figure out a better way!

The comical thing is when one of the engineers looks at a simple solution to a problem that they approached with a complex solution. Eventually, as they mature in their profession, they appreciate that simple, works!

Greg

martin hammond
02-23-2010, 10:24 PM
Martin,

Wouldn't that knid of negate the engineering models too? If no two barrels are alike, you would have to set up a model for each. Not saying it would not hold true in general, just that the same generality can be applied to a moving picture.

Ken

if the barrel's and rifles were clones 250's 24x's and 2500's would be common. when trying to figure on a harrell's tuner what the impact of setting a tuner at 200 and determing the weight of adjusting it to 500 all depends on the contour. on a reverse taper depending on the length moving the tuner that distance can have the affect of 1/2 oz. on a 1" straight of the same length it can be a fraction of that. some contours what happens the last 2" to 4" determines the range of fps available to tune. some contours the entire barrel determines the same.

Mike-T
02-24-2010, 12:30 AM
I believe the earth is round, and I don't even need to see films from space, but it is interesting when I do see them. I'm just surprised that no one has filmed a vibrating 22 LR it yet.

katokoch
02-24-2010, 01:20 AM
I believe the earth is round, and I don't even need to see films from space, but it is interesting when I do see them. I'm just surprised that no one has filmed a vibrating 22 LR it yet.

Would the vibration be significant enough to be picked up even with the fastest of the fast cameras?

mr. nobody
02-26-2010, 09:58 PM
Would the vibration be significant enough to be picked up even with the fastest of the fast cameras?

yes it would. then comes the no two barrels are the exact same intoi the effect. you can put one barrel into the comoputer and get the info, but i doesn't mean it will be the same for each barrel. impurities in the medal will throw it of, bore diameter will throw it off, the amount of pressure holding the barrel to the action will throw it off.

i know on my suhl the 3 and 5 oz wieghts made it shoot the very best set at 275. i can turn it down to 260 and up to 290 and the groups don't grow that much. very very little at all. i had found other sweat spots but the groups started to grow as soon as i turned just 5 point on the tuner.

some say i need to remove the 5 oz wieght, but when i do the groups go to crap. then when i use the 3 oz wieght only they go to crap. use the 3 and 5 oz weight and it shoots spot on groups.

i'll retest it this spring and see wha it does. testing in winter will show a large difference in summer. the medal is different in the winter than in the summer.

the scientific appraoch is the molecules are closer together in the winter and when the rifle warms up the molecules are further apart in the summer. how do i know? in the winter when they put in new rail our trains ride on it is fine until summer them it expands and they have to cut out parts of it and the rail they put in in the summer will shrink and brake in the winter.

think about it. weather does make tuning different from hot to cold. anybody who says it doesn't is wrong on a scientific level.

katokoch
02-26-2010, 10:28 PM
yes it would. then comes the no two barrels are the exact same intoi the effect. you can put one barrel into the comoputer and get the info, but i doesn't mean it will be the same for each barrel. impurities in the medal will throw it of, bore diameter will throw it off, the amount of pressure holding the barrel to the action will throw it off.


Nah I mean visually. Could you visually see the barrel physically vibrating? I think you would need a very high speed, high resolution camera to pull this off.

karls42
02-26-2010, 11:42 PM
Want to see barrels vibrating? Turn to page 72 and73 in Harold Vaughn's book.
Actually a whole chapter, 48 pages of proof and measurements.