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abintx
02-18-2010, 05:25 PM
My trip to the range will never be the same ... at least for the next year or so.

If you've been watching CNN, FOX News, etc., you've probably seen the news of a plane hitting a building in Austin, TX.

I live in Northwest Austin and drive within 25 paces of the crash site every time I head for the Austin Rifle Club. In fact, I drove by it yesterday on my way to the range. I would never have thought yesterday a troubled individual would deliberately fly a plane into a building I pass by almost every other day.

Apparently, Joe Stack, the pilot, felt he was entitled to a free ride when it came to paying his taxes and was disgruntled because he was being asked to pay his fair share. This is a great country with many types of infrastructure, infrastructure that makes our lives comfortable. It's a shame that one individual would put so many lives at risk because he didn't want to share the costs of comfort with the rest of us.

What is it that Forrest Gump said? "Mama always said life is like a box of chocolates ... you never know what you're going to get." My piece of chocolate, for the immediate future, is going to be a momentary look at an improbable crash and reconstruction site, every time I make my way to the range. :(

jackie schmidt
02-18-2010, 06:11 PM
The sad thing is that many will actually see this indivudules vile act as some sort of heroic jester. If he wanted to end it all because he screwed his lfe up, then go eat a shotgun barrel. Don't take innocent people with you.........jackie

Paul Fielder
02-18-2010, 06:21 PM
sorry amigo...he was simply a nutcase. Here's something that will make your head hurt from his blog:



If you’re reading this, you’re no doubt asking yourself, “Why did this have to happen?” The simple truth is that it is complicated and has been coming for a long time. The writing process, started many months ago, was intended to be therapy in the face of the looming realization that there isn’t enough therapy in the world that can fix what is really broken. Needless to say, this rant could fill volumes with example after example if I would let it. I find the process of writing it frustrating, tedious, and probably pointless… especially given my gross inability to gracefully articulate my thoughts in light of the storm raging in my head. Exactly what is therapeutic about that I’m not sure, but desperate times call for desperate measures.
We are all taught as children that without laws there would be no society, only anarchy. Sadly, starting at early ages we in this country have been brainwashed to believe that, in return for our dedication and service, our government stands for justice for all. We are further brainwashed to believe that there is freedom in this place, and that we should be ready to lay our lives down for the noble principals represented by its founding fathers. Remember? One of these was “no taxation without representation”. I have spent the total years of my adulthood unlearning that crap from only a few years of my childhood. These days anyone who really stands up for that principal is promptly labeled a “crackpot”, traitor and worse.
While very few working people would say they haven’t had their fair share of taxes (as can I), in my lifetime I can say with a great degree of certainty that there has never been a politician cast a vote on any matter with the likes of me or my interests in mind. Nor, for that matter, are they the least bit interested in me or anything I have to say.
Why is it that a handful of thugs and plunderers can commit unthinkable atrocities (and in the case of the GM executives, for scores of years) and when it’s time for their gravy train to crash under the weight of their gluttony and overwhelming stupidity, the force of the full federal government has no difficulty coming to their aid within days if not hours? Yet at the same time, the joke we call the American medical system, including the drug and insurance companies, are murdering tens of thousands of people a year and stealing from the corpses and victims they cripple, and this country’s leaders don’t see this as important as bailing out a few of their vile, rich cronies. Yet, the political “representatives” (thieves, liars, and self-serving scumbags is far more accurate) have endless time to sit around for year after year and debate the state of the “terrible health care problem”. It’s clear they see no crisis as long as the dead people don’t get in the way of their corporate profits rolling in.
And justice? You’ve got to be kidding!
How can any rational individual explain that white elephant conundrum in the middle of our tax system and, indeed, our entire legal system? Here we have a system that is, by far, too complicated for the brightest of the master scholars to understand. Yet, it mercilessly “holds accountable” its victims, claiming that they’re responsible for fully complying with laws not even the experts understand. The law “requires” a signature on the bottom of a tax filing; yet no one can say truthfully that they understand what they are signing; if that’s not “duress” than what is. If this is not the measure of a totalitarian regime, nothing is.
How did I get here?
My introduction to the real American nightmare starts back in the early ‘80s. Unfortunately after more than 16 years of school, somewhere along the line I picked up the absurd, pompous notion that I could read and understand plain English. Some friends introduced me to a group of people who were having ‘tax code’ readings and discussions. In particular, zeroed in on a section relating to the wonderful “exemptions” that make institutions like the vulgar, corrupt Catholic Church so incredibly wealthy. We carefully studied the law (with the help of some of the “best”, high-paid, experienced tax lawyers in the business), and then began to do exactly what the “big boys” were doing (except that we weren’t steeling from our congregation or lying to the government about our massive profits in the name of God). We took a great deal of care to make it all visible, following all of the rules, exactly the way the law said it was to be done.
The intent of this exercise and our efforts was to bring about a much-needed re-evaluation of the laws that allow the monsters of organized religion to make such a mockery of people who earn an honest living. However, this is where I learned that there are two “interpretations” for every law; one for the very rich, and one for the rest of us… Oh, and the monsters are the very ones making and enforcing the laws; the inquisition is still alive and well today in this country.
That little lesson in patriotism cost me $40,000+, 10 years of my life, and set my retirement plans back to 0. It made me realize for the first time that I live in a country with an ideology that is based on a total and complete lie. It also made me realize, not only how naive I had been, but also the incredible stupidity of the American public; that they buy, hook, line, and sinker, the crap about their “freedom”… and that they continue to do so with eyes closed in the face of overwhelming evidence and all that keeps happening in front of them.
Before even having to make a shaky recovery from the sting of the first lesson on what justice really means in this country (around 1984 after making my way through engineering school and still another five years of “paying my dues”), I felt I finally had to take a chance of launching my dream of becoming an independent engineer.
On the subjects of engineers and dreams of independence, I should digress somewhat to say that I’m sure that I inherited the fascination for creative problem solving from my father. I realized this at a very young age.
The significance of independence, however, came much later during my early years of college; at the age of 18 or 19 when I was living on my own as student in an apartment in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. My neighbor was an elderly retired woman (80+ seemed ancient to me at that age) who was the widowed wife of a retired steel worker. Her husband had worked all his life in the steel mills of central Pennsylvania with promises from big business and the union that, for his 30 years of service, he would have a pension and medical care to look forward to in his retirement. Instead he was one of the thousands who got nothing because the incompetent mill management and corrupt union (not to mention the government) raided their pension funds and stole their retirement. All she had was social security to live on.
In retrospect, the situation was laughable because here I was living on peanut butter and bread (or Ritz crackers when I could afford to splurge) for months at a time. When I got to know this poor figure and heard her story I felt worse for her plight than for my own (I, after all, I thought I had everything to in front of me). I was genuinely appalled at one point, as we exchanged stories and commiserated with each other over our situations, when she in her grandmotherly fashion tried to convince me that I would be “healthier” eating cat food (like her) rather than trying to get all my substance from peanut butter and bread. I couldn’t quite go there, but the impression was made. I decided that I didn’t trust big business to take care of me, and that I would take responsibility for my own future and myself.
Return to the early ‘80s, and here I was off to a terrifying start as a ‘wet-behind-the-ears’ contract software engineer... and two years later, thanks to the fine backroom, midnight effort by the sleazy executives of Arthur Andersen (the very same folks who later brought us Enron and other such calamities) and an equally sleazy New York Senator (Patrick Moynihan), we saw the passage of 1986 tax reform act with its section 1706.
For you who are unfamiliar, here is the core text of the IRS Section 1706, defining the treatment of workers (such as contract engineers) for tax purposes. Visit this link for a conference committee report (http://www.synergistech.com/1706.sht...ommitteeReport) regarding the intended interpretation of Section 1706 and the relevant parts of Section 530, as amended. For information on how these laws affect technical services workers and their clients, read our discussion here (http://www.synergistech.com/ic-taxlaw.shtml).
SEC. 1706. TREATMENT OF CERTAIN TECHNICAL PERSONNEL.
(a) IN GENERAL - Section 530 of the Revenue Act of 1978 is amended by adding at the end thereof the following new subsection:
(d) EXCEPTION. - This section shall not apply in the case of an individual who pursuant to an arrangement between the taxpayer and another person, provides services for such other person as an engineer, designer, drafter, computer programmer, systems analyst, or other similarly skilled worker engaged in a similar line of work.
(b) EFFECTIVE DATE. - The amendment made by this section shall apply to remuneration paid and services rendered after December 31, 1986.
Note:
• "another person" is the client in the traditional job-shop relationship.
• "taxpayer" is the recruiter, broker, agency, or job shop.
• "individual", "employee", or "worker" is you.

Admittedly, you need to read the treatment to understand what it is saying but it’s not very complicated. The bottom line is that they may as well have put my name right in the text of section (d). Moreover, they could only have been more blunt if they would have came out and directly declared me a criminal and non-citizen slave. Twenty years later, I still can’t believe my eyes.
During 1987, I spent close to $5000 of my ‘pocket change’, and at least 1000 hours of my time writing, printing, and mailing to any senator, congressman, governor, or slug that might listen; none did, and they universally treated me as if I was wasting their time. I spent countless hours on the L.A. freeways driving to meetings and any and all of the disorganized professional groups who were attempting to mount a campaign against this atrocity. This, only to discover that our efforts were being easily derailed by a few moles from the brokers who were just beginning to enjoy the windfall from the new declaration of their “freedom”. Oh, and don’t forget, for all of the time I was spending on this, I was loosing income that I couldn’t bill clients.
After months of struggling it had clearly gotten to be a futile exercise. The best we could get for all of our trouble is a pronouncement from an IRS mouthpiece that they weren’t going to enforce that provision (read harass engineers and scientists). This immediately proved to be a lie, and the mere existence of the regulation began to have its impact on my bottom line; this, of course, was the intended effect.
Again, rewind my retirement plans back to 0 and shift them into idle. If I had any sense, I clearly should have left abandoned engineering and never looked back.
Instead I got busy working 100-hour workweeks. Then came the L.A. depression of the early 1990s. Our leaders decided that they didn’t need the all of those extra Air Force bases they had in Southern California, so they were closed; just like that. The result was economic devastation in the region that rivaled the widely publicized Texas S&L fiasco. However, because the government caused it, no one gave a **** about all of the young families who lost their homes or street after street of boarded up houses abandoned to the wealthy loan companies who received government funds to “shore up” their windfall. Again, I lost my retirement.
Years later, after weathering a divorce and the constant struggle trying to build some momentum with my business, I find myself once again beginning to finally pick up some speed. Then came the .COM bust and the 911 nightmare. Our leaders decided that all aircraft were grounded for what seemed like an eternity; and long after that, ‘special’ facilities like San Francisco were on security alert for months. This made access to my customers prohibitively expensive. Ironically, after what they had done the Government came to the aid of the airlines with billions of our tax dollars … as usual they left me to rot and die while they bailed out their rich, incompetent cronies WITH MY MONEY! After these events, there went my business but not quite yet all of my retirement and savings.
By this time, I’m thinking that it might be good for a change. Bye to California, I’ll try Austin for a while. So I moved, only to find out that this is a place with a highly inflated sense of self-importance and where **** little real engineering work is done. I’ve never experienced such a hard time finding work. The rates are 1/3 of what I was earning before the crash, because pay rates here are fixed by the three or four large companies in the area who are in collusion to drive down prices and wages… and this happens because the justice department is all on the take and doesn’t give a **** about serving anyone or anything but themselves and their rich buddies.
To survive, I was forced to cannibalize my savings and retirement, the last of which was a small IRA. This came in a year with mammoth expenses and not a single dollar of income. I filed no return that year thinking that because I didn’t have any income there was no need. The sleazy government decided that they disagreed. But they didn’t notify me in time for me to launch a legal objection so when I attempted to get a protest filed with the court I was told I was no longer entitled to due process because the time to file ran out. Bend over for another $10,000 helping of justice.
So now we come to the present. After my experience with the CPA world, following the business crash I swore that I’d never enter another accountant’s office again. But here I am with a new marriage and a boatload of undocumented income, not to mention an expensive new business asset, a piano, which I had no idea how to handle. After considerable thought I decided that it would be irresponsible NOT to get professional help; a very big mistake.
When we received the forms back I was very optimistic that they were in order. I had taken all of the years information to Bill Ross, and he came back with results very similar to what I was expecting. Except that he had neglected to include the contents of Sheryl’s unreported income; $12,700 worth of it. To make matters worse, Ross knew all along this was missing and I didn’t have a clue until he pointed it out in the middle of the audit. By that time it had become brutally evident that he was representing himself and not me.
This left me stuck in the middle of this disaster trying to defend transactions that have no relationship to anything tax-related (at least the tax-related transactions were poorly documented). Things I never knew anything about and things my wife had no clue would ever matter to anyone. The end result is… well, just look around.
I remember reading about the stock market crash before the “great” depression and how there were wealthy bankers and businessmen jumping out of windows when they realized they screwed up and lost everything. Isn’t it ironic how far we’ve come in 60 years in this country that they now know how to fix that little economic problem; they just steal from the middle class (who doesn’t have any say in it, elections are a joke) to cover their asses and it’s “business-as-usual”. Now when the wealthy **** up, the poor get to die for the mistakes… isn’t that a clever, tidy solution.
As government agencies go, the FAA is often justifiably referred to as a tombstone agency, though they are hardly alone. The recent presidential puppet GW Bush and his cronies in their eight years certainly reinforced for all of us that this criticism rings equally true for all of the government. Nothing changes unless there is a body count (unless it is in the interest of the wealthy sows at the government trough). In a government full of hypocrites from top to bottom, life is as cheap as their lies and their self-serving laws.
I know I’m hardly the first one to decide I have had all I can stand. It has always been a myth that people have stopped dying for their freedom in this country, and it isn’t limited to the blacks, and poor immigrants. I know there have been countless before me and there are sure to be as many after. But I also know that by not adding my body to the count, I insure nothing will change. I choose to not keep looking over my shoulder at “big brother” while he strips my carcass, I choose not to ignore what is going on all around me, I choose not to pretend that business as usual won’t continue; I have just had enough.
I can only hope that the numbers quickly get too big to be white washed and ignored that the American zombies wake up and revolt; it will take nothing less. I would only hope that by striking a nerve that stimulates the inevitable double standard, knee-jerk government reaction that results in more stupid draconian restrictions people wake up and begin to see the pompous political thugs and their mindless minions for what they are. Sadly, though I spent my entire life trying to believe it wasn’t so, but violence not only is the answer, it is the only answer. The cruel joke is that the really big chunks of **** at the top have known this all along and have been laughing, at and using this awareness against, fools like me all along.
I saw it written once that the definition of insanity is repeating the same process over and over and expecting the outcome to suddenly be different. I am finally ready to stop this insanity. Well, Mr. Big Brother IRS man, let’s try something different; take my pound of flesh and sleep well.

The communist creed: From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.
The capitalist creed: From each according to his gullibility, to each according to his greed.

Joe Stack (1956-2010)
02/18/2010

adamsgt
02-18-2010, 09:05 PM
[QUOTE=abintx;563589]
Apparently, Joe Stack, the pilot, felt he was entitled to a free ride when it came to paying his taxes and was disgruntled because he was being asked to pay his fair share.

Couple of things. First, you don't KNOW what he felt, that's an assumption on your part. Second, who decides what a "fair share" is. And ,yes, I've read his manifesto.

It is a real tragedy when someone makes the decision to take their own life but the reasons aren't usually that simple. Unfortunately, I wouldn't be surprised to see some copycats. There's a lot of anger out there.

abintx
02-18-2010, 09:33 PM
[QUOTE=adamsgt;563630][QUOTE=abintx;563589]
Apparently, Joe Stack, the pilot, felt he was entitled to a free ride when it came to paying his taxes and was disgruntled because he was being asked to pay his fair share.

Couple of things. First, you don't KNOW what he felt, that's an assumption on your part. Second, who decides what a "fair share" is. And ,yes, I've read his manifesto.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's why the statement is prefaced with the word "apparently" meaning: open to view, incomplete results, ostensible rather than actual ... because we DON'T know. It's a supposition. Subtitle A - Income Taxes, of the Internal Revenue Code, determines what a fair share is. ;)

RayfromTX
02-19-2010, 07:32 AM
He owned a home and an airplane and he just wasn't going to take it anymore. I'm unable to feel his pain.

Years in which I pay what I feel are high taxes are also years in which I make what I feel are gobs of money. I am therefore grateful for the years in which I pay high income taxes, as those are the years in which I can buy nice things, stock up on shooting supplies and afford the luxuries that most of the world doesn't know about.

This man's selfishness and mental illness has cost many people dearly. His act of domestic terrorism has cost the life of an innocent person, the loss of capital wealth and has dented the illusion of security that we have. If anyone reading this feels a kinship with this man or even a touch of admiration, I pray to God they get help.

As for myself, I will continue to feel incredibly blessed to live in this great country and will proudly support it with a portion of my income, regardless of the mistakes and waste and even fraud that are likely to be a part of anything done by humans.

I am not trying to rile anyone up or start a fight. At least I'm trying hard to believe I'm not.

Paul Fielder
02-19-2010, 07:48 AM
He owned a home and an airplane and he just wasn't going to take it anymore. I'm unable to feel his pain.

Years in which I pay what I feel are high taxes are also years in which I make what I feel are gobs of money. I am therefore grateful for the years in which I pay high income taxes, as those are the years in which I can buy nice things, stock up on shooting supplies and afford the luxuries that most of the world doesn't know about.

This man's selfishness and mental illness has cost many people dearly. His act of domestic terrorism has cost the life of an innocent person, the loss of capital wealth and has dented the illusion of security that we have. If anyone reading this feels a kinship with this man or even a touch of admiration, I pray to God they get help.

As for myself, I will continue to feel incredibly blessed to live in this great country and will proudly support it with a portion of my income, regardless of the mistakes and waste and even fraud that are likely to be a part of anything done by humans.

I am not trying to rile anyone up or start a fight. At least I'm trying hard to believe I'm not.


exellent post amigo...:)

Gerry
02-19-2010, 08:10 AM
It seems as though no matter what way he twisted or turned , his situation turned for the worse.
I can relate to how some politicians ignore the situations.
His call for some kind of revolt is familiar also.
I do think though his situation was fixable.
He's right about corporate Greed and how Parts of the system are working.

Lets all hope that thing straighten out in the future with new Representatives. Professional Politicians are like Diapers.
They both get full of the same things.'''

blades
02-19-2010, 10:32 AM
He just got the wrong building, needed to be about 600 miles northeast.

DDriller
02-19-2010, 11:17 AM
He just got the wrong building, needed to be about 600 miles northeast.

You shooting for Memphis or Nashville?

wlb
02-19-2010, 11:49 AM
He clearly didn't understand that beyond certain basic functions the purpose of government is to steal from the unfavored group and give to the favored group :D :D :D

SGJennings
02-19-2010, 12:25 PM
It'd have to be Memphis. Nashville would be over 700. I'm from there. Sort of dismayed that anyone would suggest domestic terrorism as a way of changing our country for the good. Memphis, Nashville or elsewhere.

Gerry
02-19-2010, 12:51 PM
The real revolt will take place this fall at the POLLS

chino69
02-19-2010, 01:54 PM
The real revolt will take place this fall at the POLLS

Amen!
The American voter is finally starting to wake up. Hopefully, we'll be able to throw the carpetbaggers out and restore a government to 'for the people and by the people'.

Chino69

Bob Kingsbury
02-19-2010, 05:28 PM
Well, we have been waiting for an honest man to take office nearly
234 years. People don't look at the record, they like a smoothe
line of bull.Thats where the carpetbaggers shine. Many people just
love getting paychecks in the mailbox, especially the ones that voted
for the first time in the last election.

Gerry
02-19-2010, 08:04 PM
Lets hope so Bob and Chino'
It's been far too long with the current agendas'

Taildrag15X
02-19-2010, 08:44 PM
Well, we have been waiting for an honest man to take office nearly
234 years. People don't look at the record, they like a smoothe
line of bull.Thats where the carpetbaggers shine. Many people just
love getting paychecks in the mailbox, especially the ones that voted
for the first time in the last election.

And the ones that didn't....I've heard from a few that wished they had.

abintx
02-19-2010, 09:49 PM
Please don't hijack my thread with POLITICS. :( Thank you! :)

Bill Wynne
02-20-2010, 06:56 AM
Pour troubled guy. I believe we make our own conditions. We never will understand what demons were in his head. Well, they finally got him.

He was a man who truly needed a friend. Now he needs the God's mercy.

He sure left this earth worse than he found it. He hurt a lot of people.

Where have we heard the words, "Give unto Caesar that that is Caesar's..."?

Concho Bill

VaniB
02-20-2010, 11:06 AM
I never endorse taking innocent lives like this, just as I cannot understand the actions of terrorists whom I regard as chicken sh*t cowards who kill innocent people. This warped mind cared not if he killed somebody's Mom, Dad, or kid. For thi reason I don't care to read his manifesto garbage.

However, I also don't approve of the relentless manner with which the IRS has driven other good people to suicide as their only escape. We all screw up at one time or another and make wrong decisions that effect us for a long time. Some of us get in a deep finacial hole, and have trouble getting out. Where as I am blessed, and at 56 years of age I have never been in financial dire straits, I know other people who were in such dire straits.....includng close family. They went bankrupt to erase this blight. As well, during bandruptcy they lost EVERYTHING that they owned. I mean the house, the business, and sometimes too..... the wife. Everything! But, the point is, that they are NOT sent to debters jail. Over a period of time, their mistakes are expunged and they can start clean. In esscense, they paid a different kind of stiff price (ie; not in cash) and they were foriven. The IRS can be relentless, and you will NEVER be forgiven.

It's ungodly. It's wrong. I hope some day it is peacefully changed.

RLHBUSL
02-20-2010, 02:04 PM
Pour troubled guy. I believe we make our own conditions. We never will understand what demons were in his head. Well, they finally got him.

He was a man who truly needed a friend. Now he needs the God's mercy.

Bill - you might not feel quite so simpathetic for the poor SOB if you had a loved one in the building as I did. Thankfully, Jennifer was able to escape this madman's attack without physical injury.

Ryan

benenglish
02-20-2010, 02:53 PM
The IRS can be relentless, and you will NEVER be forgiven.

Incorrect.

To mildly oversimplify - IRS debt collections are subject to a statute of limitations; when the statute runs out, the debt no longer exists.

Bill Wynne
02-20-2010, 05:11 PM
Bill - you might not feel quite so simpathetic for the poor SOB if you had a loved one in the building as I did. Thankfully, Jennifer was able to escape this madman's attack without physical injury.

Ryan

Ryan,

Please excuse my attempt to use words. At times like these, words are almost useless.

I am truly glad for you that Jennifer did get out. As you and your Jennifer know, at least one other person who will be missed by many and was loved by some did not escape and others were badly hurt. I am sure the horror of yesterday will change the lives of many.

We can never understand the understandable. Like I said before, "His demons got him". It is too bad that they didn't just get him before he hurt so many. His immortal soul now will answer to God's judgement. We all should pity him for that even while we waist our hate on him and don't understand why he did what he did.

Bill

JJ-IA
02-20-2010, 05:32 PM
If only he didn’t have that airplane.

RLHBUSL
02-20-2010, 06:15 PM
Ryan,

Please excuse my attempt to use words. At times like these, words are almost useless.

I am truly glad for you that Jennifer did get out. As you and your Jennifer know, at least one other person who will be missed by many and was loved by some did not escape and others were badly hurt. I am sure the horror of yesterday will change the lives of many.

We can never understand the understandable. Like I said before, "His demons got him". It is too bad that they didn't just get him before he hurt so many. His immortal soul now will answer to God's judgement. We all should pity him for that even while we waist our hate on him and don't understand why he did what he did.

Bill

Bill, I appreciate your kinds words and apologize if I over reacted to your prior post. As you can imagine, I still harbor some strong feelings and resentment against this man. If he had hit the building 50 ft further to the south I might not be sitting on the couch next to my fiance right now. We are very thankful but others are not so lucky.

Limiting access to airplanes, cars or guns is not the answer. What we must do is be vigilant of those around us who may need help and not leave it up to others to intervene when necessary.

Take care, hug a loved one and tell those that are important to you how much you care about them.

Ryan

Bill Wynne
02-20-2010, 07:06 PM
I understand, Ryan. We all understand your feelings. You and Jennifer have many friends at this time. Most of them you have not met.

Bill

VaniB
02-21-2010, 12:10 PM
Incorrect.

To mildly oversimplify - IRS debt collections are subject to a statute of limitations; when the statute runs out, the debt no longer exists.

I assume you work for the government, and know something about this?

They will follow you wherever you move, hound your ass, garnish your wages, and ultimately ruin you! Unlike bankruptcy, you will not be able to start clean. And because they ARE the government and each office worker there feels that "I don't make the rules, I only administer them" they do their job without conscience. (No different then some of the instances we have heard with some people at the ATF that are simply doing their "Job".)

I don't know what "statute" you are talking about, but if there is one, try living like that for 10 or 20 years. I think they'ed have made me a pretty broken man after a lot less time then that.

But, as much as I detest their tactics, I am a sane individual that would never condone violence. Just like abortion, I can only hope that peacable changes will eventually be made.

abintx
02-21-2010, 02:49 PM
Everyday, over and over [sometimes 6 or 7 times a day], there are TV ads, offering services by a variety of firms who represent clients before the IRS. The ads explicitly announce that their firm's advocates are former IRS agents who know how to help adjudicate or settle squabbles on behalf of their clients. I wonder if Mr. Stack had ever considered this route? We'll never know. :(

beemanbeme
02-21-2010, 05:36 PM
Considering the savage attacks by the media on anyone seeking public office, I'm not surprised that an honest man that will run is hard to find.
I agree, however, that the ones we have now are the absolute scrapings. and don't forget the "Czardoms" created by the President so he could avoid Senate approval.

benenglish
02-21-2010, 05:45 PM
I assume you work for the government, and know something about this?

You assume correctly.

The relevant statute is Internal Revenue Code 6502. As it says in the second full paragraph on the linked page, "...IRC 6502 provides that the length of period for collection after assessment of a tax liability is ten years. The collection statute expiration ends the government's right to pursue collection of a liability." (http://www.irs.gov/irm/part5/irm_05-001-019.html)

In practical terms, if your financial situation renders you unable to pay your taxes without undue hardship, an Officer can make that determination and put your account in a "non-collection" status. You still get a letter every year asking if you can pay and reminding you of the debt. Your tax return information gets looked at by a computer each year and if it shows you're making more money, you may get a call. But the IRS has no problem with letting people who truly are unable to pay get away with not paying. It's just a bad debt that eventually goes away.

However, if a person makes enough money to buy a plane and still refuses to keep their tax situation straight, if a person continues to screw up by having "unreported income" in later years, if a person lays the foundation of their tax compliance habits for nearly their entire adult life by getting involved with and buying into the nonsense spouted by what were once referred to as "illegal tax protester" groups, well, then, I feel quite sure that person is going to feel like the IRS has singled them out for punishment and is hounding them for all their life.

That doesn't make it true.

This guy, according to his "manifesto", did all those incredibly stupid things and more. He created his own situation and then he couldn't handle it.

He gets no sympathy from me.

The wife and child he left behind, the workers who lost their sense of physical security at the office, the innocents injured and the one killed - those are the people I feel for.

All that said, I understand that frustration with tax administration is common and perfectly reasonable. I can think of a thousand changes that would make life easier for everyone and make our system of taxation more fair, more simple, and far less onerous.

I assume we are in complete agreement that crashing a plane into a building is certainly not the way to go about making those changes.

nhkuehl
02-21-2010, 08:39 PM
Ben,

Just curious, how did Timothy Geithner and Tom Daschle (just to name a couple) 'get behind' in their taxes? nhk

benenglish
02-22-2010, 05:25 AM
Ben,

Just curious, how did Timothy Geithner and Tom Daschle (just to name a couple) 'get behind' in their taxes? nhk

According to the Wall Street Journal, "Timothy Geithner didn't pay Social Security and Medicare taxes for several years while he worked for the International Monetary Fund..." (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123187503629378119.html). Per the New York Times, Daschle "...had income that he didn’t report..." (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/04/your-money/04money.html)

nhkuehl
02-22-2010, 10:30 AM
According to the Wall Street Journal, "Timothy Geithner didn't pay Social Security and Medicare taxes for several years while he worked for the International Monetary Fund..." (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123187503629378119.html). Per the New York Times, Daschle "...had income that he didn’t report..." (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/04/your-money/04money.html)

"The system is what it is, and law-abiding citizens are supposed to comply with it."

Thanks Ben. nhk

brian roberts
02-23-2010, 03:24 PM
that there is to be no individual tax. That taxes were unneeded, because countries wanting to do business here were to pay duties and excises, back when we had things that were worth buying. The remarkable thing about those guys who formed our former republic is, they didn't want to pay any taxes they didn't have to, so they set things up so it wasn't necessary. And, it isn't necessary to pay one's "fair share" now, since it isn't a crime to arrange your affairs to minimize your liability. One can "avoid" taxes and it isn't criminal, "evade" taxes, is something else. I just think its a CRIME we have to pay those taxes we do for such fine potholes in our streets and highways that go unrepaired, to the peril of others who may not be solvent enough to pull into the alignment shop every three months. I think its a real crime there are children right HERE that are hungry, while money gets shoveled out to foreign countries, that illegal immigration is CRAMMED down our throats, that illegals drain our system, to OUR peril......Then we read where mrs. pelosi got ticked because her issued plane had to stop for fuel once each way, as she went back and forth to home in Kalifornia, so she digs a new plane out of the Air Force, that contributes a bill for $120,000 round trip, EACH WEEK :eek:, plus I understand the bar bill on that plane for her and her RELATIVES to fly back & forth to visit with her is now up to over $100,000 :eek:. These are the crimes I see, :rolleyes: and I WONDER how the original signers of the Declaration, and Constitution would have handled it, back when there was some responsiblity for one's actions.

abintx
02-23-2010, 03:55 PM
Don't forget, there are approximately 193 other countries in the world you can move to ... if unsatisfied with this one. And no border guards with weapons will stop you from fleeing. ;)

RayfromTX
02-23-2010, 05:44 PM
touche'

Greg Culpepper
02-23-2010, 07:19 PM
We'd better take good care of what we've been given by history. There is no New World from which to create it again.

nhkuehl
02-23-2010, 08:30 PM
We'd better take good care of what we've been given by history. There is no New World from which to create it again.

I agree, we have to take care of what we've got.

The president took an oath:

I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.

He's also stated, "The constitution is fundamentally flawed..." So clearly he is not on board to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.

I also took an oath:

I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

Stay informed. Vote! nhk

brian roberts
02-24-2010, 05:47 PM
me of that oath that I took ;):D. Giving up and moving out is an asinine suggestion. What I am calling attention to, is the contortion of our country by those who'd love us to believe that their actions are perfectly in tune with the oath that THEY took :(. There are SERIOUS problems here that need to be addressed, while we may as well be conducting overflights of foreign nations, shoveling doubloons and double eagles off the loading ramp!! :eek:

Paul Fielder
02-24-2010, 06:14 PM
friggin amazing...



http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100224/ap_on_re_us/us_plane_crash_texas_1


IRS worker's widow sues Texas suicide pilot's wife
AP

Tue Feb 23, 9:05 pm ET

AUSTIN, Texas – The widow of the Internal Revenue Service employee killed when a Texas man crashed his plane into the agency's Austin office is suing the pilot's widow.

Attorney Daniel Ross says the lawsuit against Sheryl Stack seeks to determine if the pilot left behind insurance policies or other assets.

Ross represents Valerie Hunter, whose 68-year-old husband Vernon Hunter was killed last week when authorities say Joseph Stack deliberately crashed his single-engine plane into the IRS office.

Joseph Stack left behind a lengthy anti-government Internet posting blaming the IRS for personal problems spanning decades.

The lawsuit filed Monday says Sheryl Stack should have warned others about her husband.

A message seeking comment was left Tuesday with a family spokesman for Sheryl Stack.