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ifldned
02-17-2010, 04:05 PM
Hypothetical question. I'm using a official NRA smallbore target. I shoot 5 shots into the exact same hole from 50 yards. The bullet of a 22lr measures between .223 and .224 in diameter. Yet, after measured with a template these bullets only make a hole about .171 to .172 inch on the paper. Is it possible to shoot a negative numbered size group after subtracting the bullet diameter from the hole size?
ifldned

DonMatzeder
02-17-2010, 04:10 PM
The appearance of the hole is not the real size of the hole. That is the reason we use plugs. The group shooters use a gauge that finds the center of the holes and measures accordingly.

Picher
02-17-2010, 06:14 PM
If you're measuring groups in a particular piece of target paper, you need to measure the size of one bullet hole in that paper. Then, measure the group size outside to outside of the holes farthest apart; then, subtract the diameter of one bullet hole to get the "true" group size.

ifldned
02-18-2010, 01:39 PM
thanks for informing me on the correct way to measure group size. For a day I thought I broke the world record twice...LOL... It would be interesting to take a poll to find out how many shooters think they can put 5 shots in the same hole. I would think there would be many. I had a group going last weekend, first 4 shots looked like same hole through a 25x scope. Then the magnitude and gravity of the 5th shot set in and I let it go feeling confident...... seeing that extra bullet hole was like flushing the toilet. But I left with the feeling knowing it can be done... 5 in the same hole.
ifldned

TangoTwo
02-18-2010, 05:06 PM
Some of those one hole groups are about an inch. Ragged and elongated, but one hole. Some one-holers are better than others. The only ones that count are round and small.;)

Ken

Fred J
02-18-2010, 05:22 PM
Lots of one hole groups are caused by unstable bullets.

Fred J
02-18-2010, 05:26 PM
I've had loads of those one holers with my 222, but rarely with a 22RF

DonMatzeder
02-18-2010, 06:06 PM
If you shoot long enough, everyone gets a pocket group. They don't mean much unless you can shoot them every day.

ifldned
02-19-2010, 03:48 AM
When I say "one hole group", I mean literally a one hole group. That means ,when I let the first shot go I see a hole. When I let the second shot go, I wonder where it went and see only the same hole and so on for the third and fourth and fifth shot. Unless my shot went off the target completely they must have gone right through the same hole. I'm not talking about one hole cutters, or one hole stackers. Some of you know what I mean. You let second, third, fourth, fifth shot goe and wonder, ....where did it go?... unless I miss the target completely, you know it went through the same hole.
ifldned

ifldned
02-19-2010, 02:26 PM
I appreciate your honest and straight forward opinion. I'm looking at the rimfire records and the smallest group recorded as of 2003 is .09 inch, 5 shot at 50 yards by Mr. Jerry Luck on 8/21/2001. I'm hoping some custom rifle makers, factory ammo testers,rail gun shooters, etc. etc. would give us their insight as to whether smaller groups than this have been accomplished by them. If a machine can do it, a man can do it. I would think that someone, somewhere has bested the smallest recorded group and raised the bar up another notch. As a example of man vs machine. Even with the most sophisticated programs ever developed for chess, the world chess champion can still beat or compete to a draw against the finest computer chess program ever made. Thanks for the pictures posted, I enjoyed them.
ifldned

DonMatzeder
02-19-2010, 02:36 PM
The picture I posted was less than .09. The trick is in competition vs just shooting.

ifldned
02-19-2010, 03:17 PM
Thanks Don, I could not tell how tight the group was, it is small. What did it measure? It would be the new benchmark for all of us. I wonder why the rimfire records are only recorded up to 2003? There must be a updated list somewhere.
The group I shot that measured .072, recalculated by measuring size of one hole to the side by itself instead of the .223 bullet diameter, size of bullet hole is .172. New and more accurate measured group is .133 inch. Your group looks much smaller than mine. Please, give me the measurement. I'm just about brand new to benchrest shooting although I've had these rifles for 25 years. Although .133 inch is good for a beginner. I can do better, .... much better. I'm going to order some Lapua X act ammo right now. It's the only ammo I haven't shot. Hopefully leaving the best for last.
ifldned

DonMatzeder
02-19-2010, 03:35 PM
The reason the record has not been updated is because very few people shoot group anymore (it may be an extint species, I haven't seen one lately). Rimfire shoots score. AS for the group I posted, I didn't measure it. The only reason I took a picture of it was because on that day, we had a really nasty switchy wind and based on conditions, it was conspicuous.

Snidely
02-19-2010, 04:15 PM
NBRSA dropped rimfire when no one wanted to hold Nationals.

I beleive they are formally dropping it altogether this year.

ARG still shoots groups. Check records from those listed now.

Only some shooting ARG in LA and Miss.

pacecil
02-19-2010, 05:06 PM
Shooting that one hole 5 shot group shouldn't be too difficult.
Think of it as akin to rolling the same number on a die five times in a row. You should get it in something less than 8000 rolls. In other words you should get a one hole group after you've fired something less than about 8000 groups.

For all of you who don't consider that good old laws of nature apply to benchrest shooting, consider this. If we apply the same rule to get the five shot one hole group to what it might take to get a three shot one hole group, we come up with a one hole three shot group in about every 215 groups. I think I've been there, done that!

tim
02-19-2010, 09:14 PM
Shooting that one hole 5 shot group shouldn't be too difficult.
Think of it as akin to rolling the same number on a die five times in a row. You should get it in something less than 8000 rolls. In other words you should get a one hole group after you've fired something less than about 8000 groups.

For all of you who don't consider that good old laws of nature apply to benchrest shooting, consider this. If we apply the same rule to get the five shot one hole group to what it might take to get a three shot one hole group, we come up with a one hole three shot group in about every 215 groups. I think I've been there, done that!

So Cec, did they up your meds this time, back'em down, or just send you in for the paddles on the forehead? I can never tell.

pacecil
02-19-2010, 11:34 PM
Hey, Tim...good to see your keeping up with my posts, and hanging on every word! It's a great way for a guy at your level to learn about shooting. If there is any way I can help you let me know.

martin hammond
02-20-2010, 07:23 AM
ifldned, the harder the backer and using a target printed on stock will make a hole that looks like a pellet rifle was shot instead of a .22