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Slowshot
02-06-2010, 03:08 PM
This thread is a repeat of a thread on the Rimfire forum. The issue is the mixed messages and constant bickering we see on this and other forum sites. New guys see arguments that seem to descend into name calling and we wonder if we are in the wrong place and perhaps we are not welcome, when we ask technical questions. I am one of those new guys and I am constantly befuddled by the mixed messages I read on this and other websites. For example:

I have been told a .22 will shoot best with a dirty barrel, then I am told to keep the barrel clean. Yesterday, Kimberly and I were visiting Russ Haydon at his Gig Harbor WA shop and he said, "it is easier to repeat a clean barrel than a partly dirty barrel." He also said, "if a rifle will not group well after two or three foulers through a clean barrel, it's got problems." Russ went on to say that a shooter may get used to the way his or her rifle shoots when dirty but they are not likely to win any competitions.

When I described my procedures for cleaning my Ruger No. 1 while on the firing line, Russ said I should increase the frequency of cleaning and that I should start using the metal brushes that I had been avoiding.

Now Russ Haydon has a lot of trophys and medals on his wall, so I guess he knows what he is talking about but I bet someone will write back and disagree with everything in this post.

virg
02-06-2010, 03:20 PM
This thread is a repeat of a thread on the Rimfire forum. The issue is the mixed messages and constant bickering we see on this and other forum sites. New guys see arguments that seem to descend into name calling and we wonder if we are in the wrong place and perhaps we are not welcome, when we ask technical questions. I am one of those new guys and I am constantly befuddled by the mixed messages I read on this and other websites. For example:

I have been told a .22 will shoot best with a dirty barrel, then I am told to keep the barrel clean. Yesterday, Kimberly and I were visiting Russ Haydon at his Gig Harbor WA shop and he said, "it is easier to repeat a clean barrel than a partly dirty barrel." He also said, "if a rifle will not group well after two or three foulers through a clean barrel, it's got problems." Russ went on to say that a shooter may get used to the way his or her rifle shoots when dirty but they are not likely to win any competitions.

When I described my procedures for cleaning my Ruger No. 1 while on the firing line, Russ said I should increase the frequency of cleaning and that I should start using the metal brushes that I had been avoiding.

Now Russ Haydon has a lot of trophys and medals on his wall, so I guess he knows what he is talking about but I bet someone will write back and disagree with everything in this post.

Russ gave you excellent advise. Take it from someone who knows.

Good luck...virg

crb
02-06-2010, 03:25 PM
...but I bet someone will write back and disagree with everything in this post.

That 'someone' has probably never even competed in a well attended club match much less come close to winning a big national event.

virg
02-06-2010, 03:28 PM
That 'someone' has probably never even competed in a well attended club match much less come close to winning a big national event.

Which "someone" are you referring to Ray? The "someone" I was referring to was Russ.;)

virg

zippy06
02-06-2010, 03:32 PM
Sometimes people on here and other forums are mixing things up.
Or comparing apples and oranges. :eek:
Custom barrels and Factory barrels.
Centerfire Benchrest and Rimfire Benchrest.
Benchrest (Capitol B) and benchrest (small b).
There is a difference.
Oh, and here's another one. Competitors and shooters. Big difference here....Then there are the people with a safe full of closet/safe Queens...

There is a lot of good info here.
But, like crb indicates......or is saying.....

crb
02-06-2010, 03:35 PM
Which "someone" are you referring to Ray? The "someone" I was referring to was Russ.;)

virg

I quoted slowshot's post, not yours.

zippy06
02-06-2010, 03:38 PM
Here's a good article. This will really confuse you.
http://www.6mmbr.com/borebrushing.html

The world is not black and white. The is a lot of color. Unless, you are color blind.
I always wondered, why this one guy, wanted me to hook up his wires.....:eek:

Bill Ohio
02-06-2010, 08:03 PM
This thread is a repeat of a thread on the Rimfire forum. The issue is the mixed messages and constant bickering we see on this and other forum sites. New guys see arguments that seem to descend into name calling and we wonder if we are in the wrong place and perhaps we are not welcome, when we ask technical questions.

Such a good topic that you thought is was worth repeating?

Sensitive types should read and not post maybe, or you'll get your feelings hurt. Above all, newbies should have the initiative and courtesy to search the archives before asking questions that have, in some cases, been asked HUNDREDS of times before. It amounts to asking somebody to spend their time on your behalf. Which begets the question, what's in it for them?

If you want to feel really good about yourself, you won't give others the power to hurt your feelings. It's that simple. It's your responsibility, just like safe gun handling. )chill(

Don
02-06-2010, 09:12 PM
This thread is a repeat of a thread on the Rimfire forum. The issue is the mixed messages and constant bickering we see on this and other forum sites. New guys see arguments that seem to descend into name calling and we wonder if we are in the wrong place and perhaps we are not welcome, when we ask technical questions. I am one of those new guys and I am constantly befuddled by the mixed messages I read on this and other websites. For example:

I have been told a .22 will shoot best with a dirty barrel, then I am told to keep the barrel clean. Yesterday, Kimberly and I were visiting Russ Haydon at his Gig Harbor WA shop and he said, "it is easier to repeat a clean barrel than a partly dirty barrel." He also said, "if a rifle will not group well after two or three foulers through a clean barrel, it's got problems." Russ went on to say that a shooter may get used to the way his or her rifle shoots when dirty but they are not likely to win any competitions.

When I described my procedures for cleaning my Ruger No. 1 while on the firing line, Russ said I should increase the frequency of cleaning and that I should start using the metal brushes that I had been avoiding.

Now Russ Haydon has a lot of trophys and medals on his wall, so I guess he knows what he is talking about but I bet someone will write back and disagree with everything in this post.


You seem to be the type that is looking for definitive answers and only wants to sees things in black and white.

There are very few absolutes in this sport.

No two barrels, rifles, or shooters are alike, and often times take a variety of techniques to get the best accuracy available.

My bet is that between the time that your posting counts go from 30 to 300 you will come to the realisation that alot of BR falls into a grey area.....Don

zippy06
02-06-2010, 09:42 PM
Some people say every barrel is different.
I say. Every barrel is different every time you shoot it.
Oh, and the wind just switched twice. While you read this.....:eek:

Big Shurl
02-08-2010, 12:30 AM
Such a good topic that you thought is was worth repeating?

Sensitive types should read and not post maybe, or you'll get your feelings hurt.It amounts to asking somebody to spend their time on your behalf. Which begets the question, what's in it for me?

If you want to feel really good about yourself then...

Really

Slowshot
02-09-2010, 04:00 AM
Really

I certainly am aware that every rifle is different and different rifle/ammunition combinations are more suited to different uses or conditions.

I assume there is science to rifles, ballistics. etc. That is what interests me, not personalities.

I guess my best sources about equipment and correct cleaning procedures are a combination of manuals such as the Lyman Reloading Manual, discussions with true experts such as Tim Mullins and Russ Haydon and personal experience.

The thread about a newbie's first impressions was started by another member. I just thought you all might be interested in his observations.

Personally, I have spent a lifetime sorting through people's opinions and BS looking for useful data. By doing so, I have figured out how to design special equipment allowing me to play guitar and ride motorcycles. Now I am learning about shooting gear to figure out what will work best for me.

For several years, I have been an active contributing member of a website that helps disabled people (often disabled vets) ride motorcycles, trikes and sidecar rigs. I personally have developed several solutions to solve specific disability issues that are now in general use in the disabled community. I have never charged for this information and I don't even care if my name is known.

My point is, "just the facts please." If I want any personality BS, I can always call my X wife.:rolleyes:

davejones
02-09-2010, 04:17 AM
"I have been told a .22 will shoot best with a dirty barrel, then I am told to keep the barrel clean."

If you think you're getting mixed messages now, try asking, all things being equal, will a .222 shoot as accurately as a 6 PPC.
I've seen this question asked many times. I've also seen the same people that said no way, say it'll shoot as good or better 2 months later. I don't care whether it will or not, I just enjoy seeing someone flip flop.

Wilbur
02-09-2010, 05:42 AM
Only experience and for every experience there is an opposite and equal experience.

http://www.benchrest.com/sgybreakin.htm

Bill Wynne
02-09-2010, 07:52 AM
My point is, "just the facts please." If I want any personality BS, I can always call my X wife.:rolleyes:

This is what I do in rimfire competition. I clean the barrel after every 25 bull target because if I don't I find the accuracy will deteriorate about half way through the next target.

Concho Bill

jackie schmidt
02-09-2010, 08:19 AM
Zippy probably has it right.

Shooters log on to Benechrest.com to get advice on fire arm topics that have nothing to do with extreme accuracy shooting. Shooters seem to think that just because we can stack one bullet on top of another, or hit that X with a fair degree of consistancy, that it makes us authorities on everything.

It doesn't.

I don't know a darn thing about Rimfire, so you will not see me discussing much on their Forum. While not as ignorant about Factory and Hybrids as I am Rimfire, that is not the game I play.

In some aspects of Rifle performance, the Rifles ability to feed properly is just as important as it's accuarcy potential. I know "zero" about how to make a Rifle feed properly.

The fact is, many of the things that we do in Benchrest do not translate over to other disciplines. Keep in mind, we sacrifice all other aspects of Rifle performance for one thing, and one thing only. That is, that all important agging capability of the Rifle in a Competitive Arena. Nothing else matters. In short, the Benchrest Rifle is a rather singular purpose piece of equipment. In it's inviroment, it reigns supreme. But in other venues, it is not very practicle. In short, there is a difference between "Benchrest" and "benchrest".

As for the cleaning thing, I stated in a previous post that many of us are re-thinking some of our ideas, mainly due to the experiences with the 30BR. I clean my 6PPC's after every group, I have never done it different. But, we have discovered that with the 30's, it simply is not needed. Two examples: I won the Austin Varmint for Score without cleaning the Rifle for the entire agg, (none of the other competitors who shot 30's did either), and Gene Bukys just won the Tomball Match with my Rifle, and he did not clean it either. The Rifle was shooting just as well on the last target as it did the first, and after the agg, it cleaned up just as if you had only shot one clearing round and five record shots.

Previous to my experiences with the 30's, I would have said "clean after every five shot Match". That does not seem to hold true with the 30's.

But, that does not mean I am going to stop cleaning my 6PPC's after every group. In short, I am scared not to. Simply put, it is a different animal. Perhaps Ineed to re-think this.

I know it is frustrating for new shooters to log on to a site and get conflicting information. But, keep in mind, there are many ways to arrive at the same solution. Some shooters shoot hot, others stay in the lower load window. Some squeeze the bag, others turn knobs. Some hold the Rifle, some shoot free recoil. Some wait untill the condition hangs, and clear the target as quickly as possible. Others hunt and pick the condition. Some chamber in the headstock, others use a steady rest. Some full length size, others just neck size. Some use hand dies, others use dies in a press. Some swear by cut rifled barrels, others swear at them. Some think 36x power on a scope is plenty, others can't live without 60x. Some have 8 flags at 100 yards. Others only three. And, some clean after every target, some don't.

All may have the exact same number of plaques hanging on the wall........jackie

Montana Pete
02-09-2010, 10:52 AM
I sympathize with your confusion over some of these posts.

What worries me is that newcomers to the shooting sports will become confused by very "odd" opinions.

On a different shooting forum some while back, a guy asked about heavy magnums for use on whitetail deer. He specifically mentioned a 375 H&H Magnum and a .338 Magnum as examples. I thought the question was very odd, until I started reading the replies. Six different respondents thought the .375 H&H was an almost ideal gun for whitetail.

Then you get fellows who give elaborate instructions -- that are wrong. One guy tried explaining the use of an O.A.L. guage a couple of months ago. His advice was wrong. When I corrected him, he went totally emotional and ballistic.

Then there are those partisans who have some axe to grind, and some "notion" that strikes me as silly. Like advocating ultralight rifles with bobbed barrels down to 16 inches or so. That's just one example. Would apply also to the fanatic advocates of the "black rifles" such as AR-15's -- like there's nothing so wonderful. Well, they have their place, I suppose, but I cannot go off the deep end over them.

Lastly there are out and out liars who claim levels of accuracy in light sporting rifles that are pretty incredible.

It goes on and on. Best to look for the forums to entertain and get some interesting opinions. It is dangerous to take them too seriously.

Bob Kingsbury
02-09-2010, 12:38 PM
This forum is not unlike everyday life. Everyone has an opinion or founded
belief. Not everyone looks out the same window and those that do, often
see something different. Some people here are highly skilled and can explain
in great detail, some cannot. New people come to this forum with high
expectations that their problem can be answered fast and simple, but
have not completely identified the problem. Then you have the red head
that dyed her hair blonde and 2 days later developed ingrown toenails. The cause and effect is clear to her. There is also the fellow that has in his wallet
a group measuring .065. Its the only one of its kind from his rifle, but
can tell any one willing to listen how they to can do it also.
It is possible to learn here, and I do. Sometimes as much from the questions
as the answers. Its absolutely important to choose who you want to listen
to. Shooters have their own languge and many have different interpretations.
Just an example of this, having discussed seating depth with way more
shooters than I can recall, jam has a different meaning to many.One
shooter told me he was seating at full jam and pushing bullets back when
closing the bolt. On close examination, he had no marks on his bullets. His
seating depth was set 2500 rds ago.
Long discussions here about chambering barrels and truing actions, but
the shoulder of a barrel is rarely mentioned. The best Chamber in the world
is for naught if the shoulder is bad. looking at all this from my window, I
see Black and white. Gun Handling , flag reading is oh so very grey. I
might offer some advise to a new shooter, but I am no expert. People
coming to this forum should realized that like me, not everyone here
is qualified to say what you should buy on wall street or all facetts
of Benchrest.

Cheechako
02-09-2010, 01:28 PM
. . . My point is, "just the facts please." If I want any personality BS, I can always call my X wife.:rolleyes:

Slowshot

You violated your own rule with your initial question. There are no "facts" that can support whether a clean or dirty barrel is best. There are only opinions and anecdotal evidence. It's up to you to sort everything out and decide what is best for you.

OTOH, if you ask, "How much drop will a certain bullet have at a certain velocity?", anyone here can give you a factual answer. But, even then , you'll get a lot of opinions. If you're smart you'll ignore the latter.

JMHO

Ray

Slowshot
02-10-2010, 02:43 AM
Thanks for the chat guys. I guess I'll just headback out to the range. As many of you have suggested, imperical data is the only true guide. I'm still working my way up 1/2 grain at a time with my hand loads for my 220 Swift.

I do believe the fact that my groups get better as the day goes along is probably more a result of the fact that I need more trigger time than any thing else.
Every evening, when I clean the rifle, I get a lot of copper fouling out of the barrel so I know that should make my groups get larger, not smaller. There are so many variables that mix together on any day that it must take thousands of rounds with careful note taking before you can get a handle on what is causing what.

Fortunately I have nothing better to do with my time.

zippy06
02-10-2010, 06:38 AM
Thanks for the chat guys. I guess I'll just headback out to the range. As many of you have suggested, imperical data is the only true guide. I'm still working my way up 1/2 grain at a time with my hand loads for my 220 Swift.

I do believe the fact that my groups get better as the day goes along is probably more a result of the fact that I need more trigger time than any thing else.
Every evening, when I clean the rifle, I get a lot of copper fouling out of the barrel so I know that should make my groups get larger, not smaller. There are so many variables that mix together on any day that it must take thousands of rounds with careful note taking before you can get a handle on what is causing what.

Fortunately I have nothing better to do with my time.

I think you are on to something there. But, sometimes people still need to talk.
I know of 2 people. Father and son. Both have been on The World Benchrest Teams. I don't know them well. But, nice folks. Their best advice.
Show up for the matches/tournaments. That is the best practice.
Take very good notes. And use them.
I was told. A few years ago. They shot 6000 rounds one year.

I saw Jack Neary clean out his Explorer. More like dump everything on the ground. He had a bunch of Note books. 10-20 maybe. He's always writing.