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sgtfoster
01-23-2010, 08:16 PM
Ok guys ya'll have been very helpful so I have another question. What do you think about Sightron?? They have a fixed S3 16x42mm and 20x42mm coming out real soon was wondering if they where pretty good scopes. The prices are not bad at around $550.00. I really can't afford a $1250 Mark 4 right now I just order my Medalist A-5 that set me back $426 ( can't wait for it to get here ).

goodgrouper
01-23-2010, 08:39 PM
What are you going to use it for? Short range br, long range br and dialing, hunting?

I'll tell you that whatever model you get for whatever purpose, I am not a fan. Their lenses produce a yellowish hue when compared to a Weaver or Leupold and the resolution isn't great. Not to mention, the eye relief on them is shorter. I've shot all kinds of guns with all kinds of scopes on them and a Sightron mounted rifle was the only one that ever bit me above the eye.:mad:

For dialing long range, their adjustments feel weak and don't seem to track reliably. I suppose for a mid-range prairie dog scope, they'd be ok. But if I were looking for a "cheaper" scope, the Weaver is better all around in my opinion.

abintx
01-23-2010, 10:53 PM
Ok guys ya'll have been very helpful so I have another question. What do you think about Sightron??

My choice for 100/200 yards Benchrest is either the Leupold Competition Series 45x45mm with Fine Crosshair for around $940 or the Weaver 36x40mm Classic T-Series with Fine Crosshair for around $390. I currently have two of the Weaver's. :)

BenKeith
01-24-2010, 10:12 AM
Wow, Goodgrouper must have been shooting a different Sightron than mine. I have the SIII 8-32x56 and I can only think of one discription "Awsome". Tracking is dead on, all adjustments a smooth, and I don't think there's a sub $1K scope on the market that can match the optics, very bright, vivid colors. Even on 20x 6.5mm bullet holes are crisp and readily visible at 200 yds on white/red paper targets. As for eye relief at 3.6" - 4", I don't think that's too little, pretty much up there with the best of them. Kinda makes me feel like someone using a bottom of the line model as an assessment of all. Which would be like using a Leopold Rifleman (which I rate close to the Chinese scopes) as assessment for all Leopold scopes.

Now, for the SII and SI's, I don't know, never looked through or even held one but the SIII is the best scope I found for less than $1,000.

OldPPC
01-24-2010, 05:10 PM
I had a Sightron 4.5-14X50 on my 700 Remington .223. No complaints. I do agree with "goodgrouper" that the eye relief could have been longer but the .223 has so little recoil that getting accustomed to the eye relief limits wasn't much of an issue for me. I'm currently curling up behind a Leupold but I'd buy another Sightron at the right price.

BenKeith
01-24-2010, 07:36 PM
Like comparing apples and oranges. The scopes he's looking at are sIII's. At 3.6" eye relief, more than the suggested Weavers and the SIII 30mm tube offers 150moa adjustments versus 60 and can assure you not many optics in his range are going to compare with the SIII's. As mentioned, never used the SII's or SI's but for the price, the SIII's are hard to beat. Check with Scott at Liberty Optics, he just picked up the Sightron line and has always been a straight shooter with me, see what he has to say about scopes you're looking for in your price range.

goodgrouper
01-24-2010, 09:16 PM
One day a few years ago, I was out hunting rockchucks with a friend of mine who had a Sightron SIII 6-20x50 I believe it was. We found some chucks at around 900 yards and proceeded to get my friend set up to take the first poke (his turn). I had my Leupold VXIII 6.5-20x50 LRT on my rifle and got it set up with the crosshair directly over a big gray-back chuck sitting on a gray rock just in case I was going to get a turn if he missed.

After a minute of silence, I looked over and my friend was still scanning the rockpile like he couldn't see this particular chuck. I thought maybe his eyes were letting him down (he was about 70 at the time) so I went over to get his rifle set up on this chuck. Only problem was I couldn't see him anymore. Maybe he had jumped down and took off. A quick glance through my scope and I could see he was still sitting on the rock half asleep and needing a bullet wake-up call. Going back to my friend's rifle, I got it set up on the rock I knew the chuck was sitting on but I still could not make him out.

Anyway, I ended up letting him use my rifle to kill the chuck. His old eyes could see it fine through my Leupold.

The next year found us back in the exact same spot looking at the exact same rockpile, only this time, there was a Leupold atop his rifle. That very day, he ended up getting in the VHA's 1000 yard club with a triple on some pups at 1205 yards. Needless to say, he loves his Leupy!

The following summer, A friend of mine wanted me to shoot his 6ppc LV. It had a fixed power Sightron on it. Don't recall the model specifics. Anyhow, I had just finished a group with my 6ppc LV with a Leupold 36x and went over and shot his rifle. The resulting "whap" on the brow I received was due to the fact that the eye relief was a tad shorter on the Sightron and he had just powdered his bags and told me the gun shot best totally free recoil. But in eye relief terms, a 1/4" is a mile. I gladly went back to my Leupold topped rig and have been happy with it ever since.

topwater225
01-24-2010, 10:19 PM
I've had 2 Sightron SIII's and they have been fantastic.
Just a little education for those seeking a Sightron:
Just over a year ago, I did see another SIII that looked a little bit different than mine, so I investigated. What I found upon calling Sightron is that even the SIII's were updated a while back (maybe a year ago). The newer ones have much better glass and some other internal improvements.

So, it was the older version of the SIII that I saw, and btw, I didn't like the glass quite as good on it. It wasn't bad, but I could see a difference.

So, my point is: The new SIII's are EXCELLENT and have EXCELLENT glass and tracking. For the money, I don't think you can beat it.

If you find a used one that someone wants to sell, make sure it's the newer updated version......There are ways to tell, but I can't remember what they are. If not sure, call Sightron first to check.

goodgrouper
01-24-2010, 10:28 PM
I've had 2 Sightron SIII's and they have been fantastic.
Just a little education for those seeking a Sightron:
Just over a year ago, I did see another SIII that looked a little bit different than mine, so I investigated. What I found upon calling Sightron is that even the SIII's were updated a while back (maybe a year ago). The newer ones have much better glass and some other internal improvements.

So, it was the older version of the SIII that I saw, and btw, I didn't like the glass quite as good on it. It wasn't bad, but I could see a difference.

So, my point is that the new SIII's are EXCELLENT and have EXCELLENT glass and tracking. For the money, I don't think you can beat it.

If you find a used one that someone wants to sell, make sure it's the newer updated version......There are ways to tell, but I can't remember what they are. If not sure, call Sightron first to check.



Have they improved their internal workings and parallax adjustments? The old ones were rubber band driven and known to break. I sold Sightrons for 8 years and they were the number two most returned scope next to Tascos in that time. But I will admit that most that were returned were SII and SI's.

topwater225
01-24-2010, 10:43 PM
Not sure how strong or weak the internals are, but I think you would be pleasantly surpirsed how nice the new SIII's are. I believe your assesment is coming from older or inferior models. IMO - there is no harder critique on optics as I am.

Also, do a little research on the web.....you'll be hard pressed to find anyone bad mouthing them (at least the SIII's). There is even a big write-up on them (I think on 6br.com) comparing them to even a NightForce!! Now, I have both and I'm not ready to go that far yet....:D

I was very hesitant when I got mine. I did a ton of research and after reading all the good press and talking to a few people, I made the purchase and I have absolutely no regrets. I would seriously put it up against any VX-3 or maybe even the Mark 4. I do like the Mark 4 turrets better....or at least the knobs ;)

flatlander
01-24-2010, 11:12 PM
I have five Sightron SIIIs - one 8-32x56 & four 6-24x50s. Having compared the 8-32 directly against a NF BR of comparable size, there's no doubt in my mind that Sightron's optical quality is at least the equal of the NF. As far as the accuracy & repeatability of their adjustments, they're as good as, if not better than any of my Leupolds, including a Mk4 6-20x50 M1 LRT. They're excellent scopes, not just "for the money", but on any level.

Donald
01-24-2010, 11:39 PM
I had a 36X SII that was definately not up to par with a Weaver T36. It seemed to track ok, but the optics were just not there. Sold it. I have a SII 6-24x42 on one of my varmint rifles and it seems to be just fine. Very happy with it. Great optics with FCH/Dot. I think most of the early models of Sightron were not so good. It appears their new stuff is just fine.

Donald

Big Al
01-25-2010, 05:25 PM
I have bought over a dozen Sightron rifle scopes and mounted them for Alaskan bush rifles where they get the hardest use known to Man. This has gone on for the past several years now and I have not had a single return to me. As far as internal adjustments go, I place these scopes way above any other manufacture scopes I own or ever used. And I do mean all.

These stories about how bad they are, this is news to me, thank goodness for the sheltered life I have led. :)

goodgrouper
01-25-2010, 06:25 PM
Come to think of it, about 4 years ago (:confused:), Sightron came out with a new business philosophy. Until that time, they had a standard customer satisfaction guarantee. If you had a problem, you sent your scope in and they fixed it under warranty and sent it back to you. But the new policy they introduced was a "switch at the gunstore" guarantee. If you had a problem, you brought the scope back to the place you bought it and they were to swap you straight across for a new scope no questions asked. It was about at this time they claimed that they were "upping" the quality of their line and returns would be a lot less frequent.

The outside of the scopes retained the same look but the improvements were to be to the insides.

I'd be willing to bet that the majority of happy SIghtron owners have scopes made in the last few years. As far as comparing them to Leupy or NIghtforce, I'm not even going there except to say that beauty as well as clarity is in the eye of the beholder.;) Only engineering points are comparible and debatable and not relative to one's eye.

goodgrouper
01-25-2010, 06:31 PM
I have the S11 6 -24 X 42
I am starting to think it never held zero from the day purchase it .From
the U.S
Ok how do i check it
Thanks men

To check it for POI shift, you can buy a two-scope mount and look for shifts while being shot or you can mount it on a rail gun if you know someone who has one.

To check for dialing consistency, put the gun in a vise or dead rest and then put a 1" gridded target at 100 yards. Put the crosshair at the top or the bottom of the grid and dial up or down on the turret stopping every 4 clicks on a 1/4" adjustment scope or every 8 clicks on a 1/8 scope. If the crosshair didn't move up and down the grid to each corresponding line throughout it's adjustment travel, you have a problem. If it moves more or less than the 1" but does it consistently, you can tweak the drop chart to compensate. But if it dials inconsistenly or the values change as it goes, you have a scope that won't be reliable and needs to be sent back.

Rustystud
01-25-2010, 06:46 PM
Five years ago you could not have given me a Sightron Scope. I bought a 24X Target scope and was a sceptic. I have shot it at 50yds to 1000yds and it has searved me very well (three years). Last year I bought a 8 x 32 x 50. It too has served me very well. I plan to pick up three 10 x 50 x 60 scopes one for myself and two for customers. We all already have Swaroski, Zeiss, Nightforce, and Leupold scopes and can afford to buy anything on the market. I saw a 10 x 50 x 60 last year while visiting the Sightron Hq. Tried to buy that one (proto type) from Allen Orr then. The scope I looked through was as good from edge to edge and any of my higher end scopes. Both my 24 x and 8 x 32 track very good.

Nat Lambeth

Big Al
01-26-2010, 10:31 AM
Seems like I remember talking to a fellow BR shooter that one a major match with his 36X BR Sightron and really liked it, that was before I bought all of these for customer rifles. I just can't remember who it was but he was a supplier to the BR game. POI means more to me than all the fun of returning scopes to Leupold for failure of the erector tube to move or move when it wants. This has been a common complant with Leupold for a lot of years now.

The only answer I can come up with is buy a new March or get a Sightron. The Night force you need a forklift from the extra weight. I know I have never had a Sightron with and erection tube failure. I sure as heck can not the same for some of my Leupold's, they have more air miles than I do. The only 36X from Leupold that has not been back to Organ is one done by Tucker.

goodgrouper
01-26-2010, 11:48 AM
The only answer I can come up with is buy a new March or get a Sightron. The Night force you need a forklift from the extra weight.

Unfortunately, the March scopes are like Night force in the weight department--heavy! And dare I say on this site............March's have had problems too! I know of more than a couple that have been sent back. At risk of banishment, I will say that I even know a moderator here (who's name will go unmentioned) who is not happy about two of his March's and is sending them home for inspection!


As far as Leupy's being sent back, yes, I've had to do it a few times. Everybody is capable of making a lemon. EVERYBODY. But in eight years, the SIghtron to Leupy return ratio was 20 to 1. Maybe even higher. And the ratio of Leupy's to SIghtron on ANY benchrest match firing line (point blank,600,1000) is also about 20 to 1 and maybe higher at the bigger shoots. You can argue relatives all day long but you can't deny the equipment lists.;)

BenKeith
01-26-2010, 09:57 PM
That's why they make chocolate and vinella ice cream, or I guess you could say why there are sooooooo many different scopes on the market. I just know, based on my current SIII832x56, my next scope will also be a Sightron SIII

squirrelduster
01-26-2010, 10:13 PM
I have a Sightron SIII 8-32x56 on my 300 win mag with a brake. It is my hunting rifle and has flawless in it's tracking and has never lost zero. It is a light weight rifle that used to kick the crap out of me so I had a brake installed.
I am convinced that if a heavy kicking rifle with a muzzle brake doesn't cause a scope to malfunction it never will. This same rifle sheared off two sets of Leupold rings so I know there is some serious force involved.
The glass seems as good as my nightforce.
I also have a SIII 6-24x50 on my M1A and have not had any issues with it either. I would like to see more reticle choices in the Sightron. If they came through with some like the Nightforce R1 or R2 they would be hard to beat.

Roger rodbolt
01-26-2010, 10:16 PM
[QUOTE=goodgrouper;558729]Unfortunately, the March scopes are like Night force in the weight department--heavy!

Did I get cheated? Maybe March shorted me on the internals....my March 50X scales 21.1 ounces, and the assorted Nightforce vary from 33 to 36 ounces. That puts the Nightforce at 150% fat and makes the March tie with a Leupold Competition which is the lightest, high power, 30MM bench rest scope I'm aware of. What's the deal:rolleyes:

topwater225
01-26-2010, 10:28 PM
But in eight years, the SIghtron to Leupy return ratio was 20 to 1. Maybe even higher. And the ratio of Leupy's to SIghtron on ANY benchrest match firing line (point blank,600,1000) is also about 20 to 1 and maybe higher at the bigger shoots. You can argue relatives all day long but you can't deny the equipment lists.;)

GG- I totally respect your opinions as I know how much experience you have with this stuff.....BUT I have an educated guess that there are not many SIII's on the BR circuit. Also, when you were in sales, I don't believe the SIII was around (I could be wrong).

Again, the SIII is awesome! The SI, and SII, and even very early versions of the SIII are inferior to the current SIII. So, it's not a good comparison with the models you have experience with.

I will be the first to admit that I love my SIII, but if I were in the market for a cheaper model, I doubt it would be a Sightron....

....but again, we are talking about the SIII which I consider an "upper-end" scope ;)

Boyd Allen
01-26-2010, 10:59 PM
Do I remember correctly? Didn't the entire US WBC team use Sightrons (that had been modified with nylon screws installed in opposition to both turrets), to...was it Sweden? And who was it that won that event? Refresh my memory; what year was that?

goodgrouper
01-26-2010, 11:13 PM
GG- I totally respect your opinions as I know how much experience you have with this stuff.....BUT I have an educated guess that there are not many SIII's on the BR circuit. Also, when you were in sales, I don't believe the SIII was around (I could be wrong).

Again, the SIII is awesome! The SI, and SII, and even very early versions of the SIII are inferior to the current SIII. So, it's not a good comparison with the models you have experience with.

I will be the first to admit that I love my SIII, but if I were in the market for a cheaper model, I doubt it would be a Sightron....

....but again, we are talking about the SIII which I consider an "upper-end" scope ;)


And I respect your opinions as well. If you say you like the SIII and it is awesome, I believe you compeletly. But we are going back to relative opinions again. The only thing we can go on that is not subjective is the equipment lists of benchrest matches. I invite you out to any of our NBRSA sanctioned matches at any distance so you can take a look around at the competitors if you don't have access to our equipment lists. There are two point blank in Springville this year which is near your home. We will have probably around 40 shooters for the one in May. Of those 40, you might see one or two SIghtrons. You'll see 5 or 6 Weavers, 6 or 7 March, and the rest will either be Leupold Comps or old Leupold 36x BR's like mine. I promise I'm not making any of this up! Come see for yourself.:)

goodgrouper
01-26-2010, 11:49 PM
[QUOTE=goodgrouper;558729]Unfortunately, the March scopes are like Night force in the weight department--heavy!

Did I get cheated? Maybe March shorted me on the internals....my March 50X scales 21.1 ounces, and the assorted Nightforce vary from 33 to 36 ounces. That puts the Nightforce at 150% fat and makes the March tie with a Leupold Competition which is the lightest, high power, 30MM bench rest scope I'm aware of. What's the deal:rolleyes:

I think you missed the point entirely here. In the context of BR where weight is a concern and was the point of view from which we were speaking, the Sightron BR and the Leupold 36x br are in one category. The March, the Leupold Comp and the Nightforce are heavy and in the heavy category requiring compensation in other ways if one intends to make a light weight varmint. Your March is just fine. I'm sure it has all it's parts.;)

goodgrouper
01-26-2010, 11:56 PM
Do I remember correctly? Didn't the entire US WBC team use Sightrons (that had been modified with nylon screws installed in opposition to both turrets), to...was it Sweden? And who was it that won that event? Refresh my memory; what year was that?

Don't remember what year but it was recently. But those were SII fixed benchrest models, not SIII's which are reported to be better. Unfortunately, I don't think they make a BR model in SIII. BUt you're right, they were all "frozen" or "locked" down. ANd refresh my memory, weren't they all supplied to the shooters similar to how they supply the powder and the solvent the WBC team has to use?


I know you don't compete Boyd but I've heard you hover around some of the California shoots. What have you seen?

Boyd Allen
01-27-2010, 12:24 AM
I have known many of the competitors for many years, and I like to stay in touch. I used to compete, but health issues have made it less fun, so it has been about three years since I shot a match. When I did, I was a middle of the pack shooter, only having won 2 or three matches total. Nevertheless I try to stay up with the latest on the technical side. Did I get it wrong, or did you mean hover and don't compete to sound condescending, or did it just come off that way? I have read some of your posts on the competition only board, but we aren't there are we?

goodgrouper
01-27-2010, 12:57 AM
I have read some of your posts on the competition only board, but we aren't there are we?



Since when has the competition only board stopped non-competitors from coming on there and telling those who do compete "how to play the game"??:eek: I'm not sure why it would matter that we're on the general board now but maybe I'm not understanding why you mentioned the above quote?


As to your question, no intent of condescension. I could have used "hang out", "watch", "go to", "observe", etc. Whatever you please. If you're intimidated by competitors, any of the above words would seem condescending to you I suppose. No harm intended, I just knew you had your fingers in it to some extent and was curious as to what you had seen. What did you compete with? What's the ratios you've noticed?


Perhaps it doesn't even matter since the thread starter hasn't been back on here since the minute he posted his question. Maybe this is all muddy water under the bridge anyway.

Boyd Allen
01-27-2010, 09:28 AM
I have not seen very many Sightrons at matches either. Of the Japanese scopes, Weavers were the most popular, with and occasional B&L. I think that the whole Sightron with set screw thing was well pre-March, and went away as other options became available. Also, I think shooters became aware that the problem (at least with Leupolds)may have been with the erector tube pivot, rather than at the turrets. Since it is my understanding that Japanese scopes all use a pivot system that is different than Leupold, and are pretty much alike in this part of their designs, I would be interested to hear shooters' experiences with these scopes insofar as holding POI goes. I also would be interested in hearing about experiences with the latest 36X Big Sky Sightron.

Big Al
01-27-2010, 09:46 AM
I only have two rifles I've ever pulled Leupold scopes from (other than to send back to Leupold). I have replaced all my Leupold's with Sightrons. The old Leupold's need to go to the classifieds and the new in the box Leupold's need to find another home. I have been a Leupold user from 1975 until I got tired of returning them because of erector tube failures. I was a dyed in the wool Leupold fan for many years until I faced the truth about Leupold. I have never had a problem with my 1.5-5 Leupold's so they stay on my scoped .375H&H's. I do have other brand of scopes that have not caused any problems, but the average guy they are just out of reach price wise. No POI with Sightron scopes and I do recommend them for the guy that wants a scope for here in Alaska. Now watch, tomorrow I'll get a return in the mail.

topwater225
01-27-2010, 10:42 AM
......take a look around at the competitors if you don't have access to our equipment lists. There are two point blank in Springville this year which is near your home. We will have probably around 40 shooters for the one in May. Of those 40, you might see one or two SIghtrons. You'll see 5 or 6 Weavers, 6 or 7 March, and the rest will either be Leupold Comps or old Leupold 36x BR's like mine. I promise I'm not making any of this up! Come see for yourself.:)

When I was going to get into BR, I started looking very heavy at equipment lists, and you are right. Leupolds dominate the list. I may of got off base a little on this one, because I wanted to defend the SIII. I have little experience with the SI and SII models, so I can't defend those. I shoot a lot of long distance stuff, and that's where the SIII shines. Great optics and great tracking.
I know I would enjoy BR and someday I will get into it. What scope I will choose is still a mystery to me, but I think my decision will be heavily influenced by equipment lists for the winners :D

goodgrouper
01-27-2010, 12:31 PM
I only have two rifles I've ever pulled Leupold scopes from (other than to send back to Leupold). I have replaced all my Leupold's with Sightrons. The old Leupold's need to go to the classifieds and the new in the box Leupold's need to find another home. I have been a Leupold user from 1975 until I got tired of returning them because of erector tube failures. I was a dyed in the wool Leupold fan for many years until I faced the truth about Leupold. I have never had a problem with my 1.5-5 Leupold's so they stay on my scoped .375H&H's. I do have other brand of scopes that have not caused any problems, but the average guy they are just out of reach price wise. No POI with Sightron scopes and I do recommend them for the guy that wants a scope for here in Alaska. Now watch, tomorrow I'll get a return in the mail.



I guess I'm the one who has lived a charmed life because I personally own 11 Leupold scopes and have them on sheep rifles (extreme abuse), elk rifles (bad abuse), 1000+ yard varmint rifles (lots of wear and tear on the erector), walk around varmint rifles thrown on 4 wheelers, and even a Premier boosted Leupold atop a 2000+ yard varmint rifle (knob twisting murder on an erector) and have never had a minute's trouble.

To date, two of my rifles have been used to kill over 40 head of big game all over the western U.S. from various distances from 525 yards to over 1400 yards. In these extreme distances, if the scopes were as bad as they've been for you, none of these shots would be possible, let alone DONE. Even my 15 year old 36x that's on my ppc was bought used and was abused but I have never sent it back. I have mounted it on a rail gun and it's spot on as any March.

I guess I've just been lucky. But wait, it isn't just me!:eek: I forgot to mention that I've sold thousands of Leupolds to customers and clients and there has been only a handful that had to be sent back and I'd be willing to bet a lot of those people are even harder on their gear than me!

And let us not forget, Tony Boyer took a Leupold Comp (unaltered), mounted it on his rifle, and proceeded to win how many more HOF points and how many big matches? Perhaps he just got the "good" one as did I.;)

goodgrouper
01-27-2010, 12:34 PM
Of the Japanese scopes, Weavers were the most popular, with and occasional B&L.

Yes, thanks for reminding me. There's a feller from SLC that shoots a B&L and he loves it. You will see him in Springville.

chino69
01-27-2010, 02:03 PM
I can honestly say I've never had a problem with Leupold. I have owned many over the years and they've been mounted on everything from semi autos to custom varmint rifles; never had to send one back. I own quite a few Sightrons and never had a problem. My scopes get used under field conditions with plenty of clicking up/down/left/right, they are not babied. Maybe I'm one of the lucky few and should count my blessings.

Lou Baccino

sgtfoster
01-27-2010, 07:48 PM
Sorry guys didn't mean to turn this in a Leupold vs Sightron thing. I had a 6.5x20x50 Mark 4 with the TMR mounted on top of a Remington 700ss 5-R Mil-spec and it was a fine scope loved it, but I have spent enough money on my new project that the wife is not very happy. The Mark 4 is around $1250 the fixed S3 20x42 is around $550 was just wondering was it worth mounting on top of my Sendero 7mm mag for some 1000yrd plinking?? Just set her in my brand new Medalist A-5 tonight and it is SWEET!!!!!!

Big Al
02-01-2010, 09:23 AM
I guess to many people remember the story about Tony and Hart barrels from years ago to let anything get in Tony's hands that was in anyway not perfect. Needless to say from that episode Tony is the last guy in this world you want to have pissed at you or your company.

Noth Fork
02-01-2010, 10:12 AM
My only complaint with sightron is they dont give you much choices with there cross hairs.