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Eric Stecker
01-15-2010, 01:22 PM
In our ongoing effort to enhance the shooting experience we will announce when important changes are made to our bullets. In this case the change is to the 6mm 105 gr VLD Target bullet. This change is best described by Bryan Litz. His article can be found on our website by clicking on the link below.

http://02b0516.netsolhost.com/blog1/?p=81

Please post any questions or comments you have on this forum.

Regards,
Eric

T Pohl
01-15-2010, 02:15 PM
I cant open it up. Can someone tell me in a nut shell what it sead?
Thanks
Terry Pohl

Eric Stecker
01-15-2010, 02:30 PM
Change to 6mm 105 grain VLD Target bullet
Overview

In our continuing effort to provide shooters with the best possible bullets and information, this article will address a recent change made to one of our most popular bullets: the 6mm 105 grain VLD Target bullet. Note that this change applies to the 6mm 105 grain VLD Target bullet only, not the VLD Hunting bullet.

Making bullets is all about consistency. Precision depends on it, shooters demand it. Occasionally there are reasons to change something in the bullet making process which results in new bullets being different than the old. We feel it is our obligation to communicate when these changes are made, the effect on the end product, and what that means in practical terms for the shooter.

Cause
The reason for this particular change has to do with challenges presented by the thicker jackets of the target bullets. Master Bulletsmith Eric Stecker explains that: “There are differences when forming bullets using thicker jackets. In the case of the 6mm 105 gr VLD Target these differences produce several undesirable results that we have been working hard to resolve. These results include frequent ejection pin failure and nose forming inconsistencies. Although we have been successful at making some quantities of good bullets on the current die this change will allow us to make more consistent bullets in greater volume.”


Effect
Now that the reason for the change has been explained, I’m going to discuss the consequences of the change. How does the new die with the larger knock-out pin affect the bullet? Figure 2 below is a split image showing the old bullet tip on the left compared to the new bullet tip on the right.


Effect on seating depth
The ogive radius of the new die is very close (within measurement tolerances) of the old die. That means that if you have an established seating depth for the old 105 VLD, there shouldn’t be any difference for the new bullet. The seating die seats the bullet by pushing on its ogive, and puts the bearing surface a certain distance from the lands (jump or jam). Because the ogive radius is the same for the new die and the old die, the jump or jam will be the same. Note that since the new bullet is shorter in the tip, it will result in slightly shorter COAL, but that’s not an issue for precision since the jump or jam distance isn’t affected.

Effect on BC
Since the new bullet nose is shorter and has a wider meplat, the drag is higher. The result is a lower BC for the new bullet. How much lower? Figure 2 shows that the G7 BC is reduced from .272 to .251, a reduction of 8% from the previous value.

This new bullet stands to benefit a great deal from aftermarket bullet pointing which will close up the meplat to a finer point. Pointing the new 105 VLD will yield a greater improvement in BC than it did for the old 105 VLD, but you won’t be able to re-claim all of the BC by pointing because the new ogive is shorter. Note that it is not recommended to close the points on bullets used for hunting because it may have adverse effects on the terminal performance.

Summary
In conclusion, the new 6mm 105 grain VLD Target bullets beginning with lot# 2421 will have a larger meplat and lower BC. The change will not have an impact on seating depth, but will result in a different COAL. The change does not apply to the 6mm 105 VLD Hunting bullets, which will continue to be made using a die with the smaller knock out pin.

Note that this is the first case where there is a significant difference in the external design between the Berger VLD Hunting and Target bullets. For the time being, every other caliber and weight of VLD shares the same external design in the Target (thick jacket) and Hunting (standard jacket) configuration. We’ll keep you informed if/when changes like this are made to other bullets.

T Pohl
01-15-2010, 02:59 PM
Thanks Eric. As soon as I can get my hands on some I will give them a try and post my results.
Terry Pohl

Eric Stecker
01-15-2010, 03:04 PM
That will be appreciated. I want shooters to come to their own conclusion. I will predict that these bullets will be every bit as precise as previous Berger 105 gr VLD. There are legitimate reasons why they may even prove to be better but we'll see if this proves out.

Regards,
Eric

DReed
01-15-2010, 03:56 PM
When will they be available? I usually buy from Grafs, and they still show to be out of stock.

Thanks

Eric Stecker
01-15-2010, 06:07 PM
They are shipping now. It will take 1-2 weeks before we fill all the orders. We are shipping them in the order they were placed.

The 6mm 105 gr VLD Target has not been made for some time. It is our most popular target bullet so you can imagine that the amount of bullets on back order is tremendous. The good news is that they are coming now and we know that we can make them this way.

Regards,
Eric

wvredneck
01-17-2010, 04:19 PM
What is the projected BC of these new bullets.
Stan

bsl135
01-17-2010, 04:21 PM
Stan,
The new G1 BC is .493 (average from 3000 fps to 1500 fps)
The new G7 BC is .251 (valid for all speeds)
-Bryan

newbiebob
01-20-2010, 12:32 AM
Bryan,

Have you tried pointing these new bullets yet? If so, how much of an impact did it have on BC? DIf youi haven't tried to do so yet, do you think pointing will meet/compare to the BC of the old bullet?

Charles E
01-20-2010, 07:58 AM
Bryan,

Have you tried pointing these new bullets yet? If so, how much of an impact did it have on BC? DIf youi haven't tried to do so yet, do you think pointing will meet/compare to the BC of the old bullet?Last I heard, Bryan worked for Berger Bullets. It can get awkward when you ask someone if there is a way to "improve" their product.

But what could be a factor in any re-pointing would be the increased thinness of the jacket. Look at what Jim Hardy (Law Dawg) went through to re-point the 300 grain Sierras, in the current thread on meplat trimming. One of the steps was thinning the jacket. Don't ask him how much the little lathe Pindell made for him cost, though!

newbiebob
01-20-2010, 08:54 PM
I'm certainly aware that Brian works for Berger but having read his book on ballistics I'm also aware that he is familiar with the concept.

Eric Stecker
01-21-2010, 02:11 AM
Bryan is in Las Vegas at the SHOT Show and does not have access to the forums. I am confident that he will respond when he can.

Regards,
Eric

voldoc02
01-21-2010, 04:16 AM
Eric,
I am a very big Berger Bullet Fan and thanks so much for the best of Bullets.. I shoot both the 105's and 108's in all of my LR 6mm's. Is the 108 Match Bullet also affected by the knock-out punch situation, thereby making
changing it also necessary ?? advise and thanks much
Doc Stone

bsl135
01-21-2010, 09:08 AM
Bryan,

Have you tried pointing these new bullets yet? If so, how much of an impact did it have on BC? DIf youi haven't tried to do so yet, do you think pointing will meet/compare to the BC of the old bullet?

newbiebob,

I haven't actually pointed, shot and measured the BC of these new 105 VLD's yet. However I can say that given the larger meplat's, you can get more of a BC improvement by pointing them than you could by pointing the old one that had a smaller tip to begin with. Not having shot the test, I can't say exactly how much.

To be clear, you can't achieve a higher BC with this new bullet than with the old one by pointing, but the improvement with the new bullet will be greater.

For example, if you were gaining 3% BC by pointing the old 105 VLD, then you might gain 5% by pointing the new one. But since the new one starts out 8% lower, you can't exceed the BC of the old bullet by pointing.

Hope this makes sense,
-Bryan

German Salazar
01-21-2010, 09:26 AM
Bryan, thanks for your comments and article on this topic.

Just to be clear, the 105 VLD "hunting" bullet is still the same old 105 VLD we've shot forever, right? I shoot them from the 6BR and 6XC and don't feel a need for a thicker jacket, so if I buy the "hunting" version, I'm still getting the same bullet I've been shooting?

bsl135
01-22-2010, 01:57 AM
German,
You're correct, and that's a good point. The Hunting VLD's are not changing. So if you're shooting a cartridge that's not in danger of failing the bullets, then there's no reason to shoot the Target VLD's. You can shoot the Hunting VLD's which will continue to be made with the smaller knock out punches.
-Bryan

Eric Stecker
01-22-2010, 02:51 AM
Eric,
Is the 108 Match Bullet also affected by the knock-out punch situation, thereby making changing it also necessary ??


Doc,

The 108 gr BT is made using a tangent ogive which is easier to form so this bullet is not affected by this situation. At this point we have made this change only with the 6mm 105 gr VLD Target. There are a few others that are difficult to produce (all VLDs) but so far we have managed to keep these bullets working with no changes.

Regards,
Eric

newbiebob
01-23-2010, 12:36 AM
Bryan,

Thanks for your response re: the differences in pointing the old and new bullets.

Bob