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Benchrester
11-01-2009, 03:06 PM
Well, not really. They do have a minor benifit. Probably 2 to 5% so in that manner they could help you win a match.

But tell you what you need to do. I've done this three times with the exact same results. Take a rifle with known good ammo. Doesn't have to be great as long as you know what to expect from it with the tuner off and on (any setting).

Find a shooter that doesn't know what the tuner is really for and let him shoot some baseline groups without the tuner then some more with the tuner (any setting).

Start making major changes to the tuner, record your changes, add weight if you want. Don't tell the shooter what it's for.

Three times (I know not stat relevant) I'e done this. Three time same result. Rifle shoots a little better with the tuner on. Analysis of five five shot groups with the random settings indicate no change in accuracy.

Don't take my word for it go see for yourselves.

nipper
11-01-2009, 04:53 PM
sorry i disagree

bill

bob finger
11-01-2009, 04:59 PM
Me too. Perhaps not much change in a very good barrel with superb ammo but every little bit is needed to win. Sorry, I'll take every little bit of additional accuracy I can squeeze out of a rifle. bob finger

Robertra
11-01-2009, 05:06 PM
have to agree with bill and bob i use a tunner feel it gives me tighter groups

Dan
11-01-2009, 05:37 PM
It would seem that the bigeest drawback to doing what is stated in the original post is that the experiment relies on the ability of a shooter that does not know what a tuner is for. How good is that shooter? What experience does he have in reading wind and shooting that causes one to trust the results of the experiment to his hand on the gun? Most experienced benchrest shooters, even those who do not use a tuner, know what it is for. I would not trust the results of such an experiment to tell me the accuracy of a given forearm nor how much value the tuner adds to that gun.

J Pappas
11-01-2009, 05:52 PM
Well, not really. They do have a minor benifit. Probably 2 to 5% so in that manner they could help you win a match.

But tell you what you need to do. I've done this three times with the exact same results. Take a rifle with known good ammo. Doesn't have to be great as long as you know what to expect from it with the tuner off and on (any setting).

Find a shooter that doesn't know what the tuner is really for and let him shoot some baseline groups without the tuner then some more with the tuner (any setting).

Start making major changes to the tuner, record your changes, add weight if you want. Don't tell the shooter what it's for.

Three times (I know not stat relevant) I'e done this. Three time same result. Rifle shoots a little better with the tuner on. Analysis of five five shot groups with the random settings indicate no change in accuracy.

Don't take my word for it go see for yourselves.

You do realize what you call a "minor benefit" is the reason the rest of us go to a match, Right?

Let me see if I understand. You took 3 people who don't know what a tuner is, so they know nothing about benchrest, and let them shoot, then based your findings on that? So what did you prove?

DonMatzeder
11-01-2009, 05:57 PM
Look at it this way. If you have a perfect rifle with perfect ammo and aim at the dot with a 3/8" wind push, you should miss every time on an ARA target. Now if that gun sucked, you might hit the 100 once in a while. Which was better?

Benchrester
11-01-2009, 07:45 PM
It would seem that the bigeest drawback to doing what is stated in the original post is that the experiment relies on the ability of a shooter that does not know what a tuner is for. How good is that shooter? What experience does he have in reading wind and shooting that causes one to trust the results of the experiment to his hand on the gun? Most experienced benchrest shooters, even those who do not use a tuner, know what it is for. I would not trust the results of such an experiment to tell me the accuracy of a given forearm nor how much value the tuner adds to that gun.

This is where you're wrong. First of all almost every little club has a .22 contingent who happily shoot their 10-22's or Anschutz's without tuners and there are plenty of skilled shooters. All you need to do is pick one. Reading the wind is a non-issue because you need to conduct this experiment with a littl condition as possible. The shooter, unless an idiot, would have to figure out what the tuner is for, but he has no preconceived ideas of whether it should increase or decrease accuracy depending on the way it's turned. Try it. The tuner does help with vertical to an extent 2-5%, which is enough to justify it given the tight scores in today's matches. It does little or nothing past that no matter where it's moved.

If you believe otherwise, you're wrong.

Benchrester
11-01-2009, 07:47 PM
You do realize what you call a "minor benefit" is the reason the rest of us go to a match, Right?

Let me see if I understand. You took 3 people who don't know what a tuner is, so they know nothing about benchrest, and let them shoot, then based your findings on that? So what did you prove?

Two things. One the minor benefit is worth the problem, you just don't need to adjust it. Slap eight ounces of weight on the end of the barrel and you'll do just as well and it will be cheaper. Two, I said three was not statistically relevant so nothing was proven, but then again very little has been proven about a tuner. But you would think at least one would go the other way.

Benchrester
11-01-2009, 07:48 PM
Look at it this way. If you have a perfect rifle with perfect ammo and aim at the dot with a 3/8" wind push, you should miss every time on an ARA target. Now if that gun sucked, you might hit the 100 once in a while. Which was better?

What?

Kent Owens
11-01-2009, 08:04 PM
Benchrester what's yo real name so we can look up your stats and see what kind of scores you're shooting? Lots' of folks posting on this forum don't have any idea just how good these rimfires really tuned up with top notch ammo will actually group in ideal conditions, Do they Pappas?:) Tuners do work, no doubt.

martin hammond
11-01-2009, 08:40 PM
benchrester it's not the tuners that sucks it some of the pure nonsense that's been put out there for the past 20 years.

Benchrester
11-01-2009, 08:47 PM
Benchrester what's yo real name so we can look up your stats and see what kind of scores you're shooting? Lots' of folks posting on this forum have any idea just how good these rimfires really tuned up with top notch ammo will actually group in ideal conditions, Do they Pappas?:) Tuner work, no doubt.

I've shot competition but just starte BR so there probably are no meaningful stats. My name is Jury Sukhorukov. I don't shoot in the U.S. but have shot some BR. I've done a little competition shooting. I don't use a tuner. They do nothing for me.

Wilbur
11-01-2009, 08:57 PM
Look at it this way. If you have a perfect rifle with perfect ammo and aim at the dot with a 3/8" wind push, you should miss every time on an ARA target. Now if that gun sucked, you might hit the 100 once in a while. Which was better?

There's a lot more to this concept than one would initially believe.

Madrox
11-01-2009, 09:04 PM
I've shot competition but just starte BR so there probably are no meaningful stats. My name is Jury Sukhorukov. I don't shoot in the U.S. but have shot some BR. I've done a little competition shooting. I don't use a tuner. They do nothing for me.

Hey Jury, I'm Mark Spitz old coach. I wasn't actually around the swim team but I saw you win the silver. Not bad.

Pretty good.

mr. nobody
11-01-2009, 09:41 PM
does anybody remeber the old movie "the gods must be crazy?"

Benchrester
11-01-2009, 10:09 PM
Okay, tell me what a tuner does and how it does it?

mr. nobody
11-02-2009, 12:00 AM
you should not make more trouble here. they work. my first rifle i got for a benchrest rifle was a suhl. it shot ok. when i found a lot of ammo that it shot well i purchased a tuner for it. it went from shooting ok to shooting freaking great when i got it uned right.

the simple and plain truth is a tuner simply will not make bad ammo good. it takes great ammo and makes it shoot even better. do i know how it works? nope. the simple fact is i know it works. all i need to know is that when a rifle is tuned right they shoot better.

you can go on believing they don't help all you want. the masses who have been there and done that know they won't try to get into a match without thier rifle tuned right and a great lot of ammo. to do so is just simply crazy.

you can try to live in your world of non-tuner rifles and think you have a clue.

in the movie the gods must be crazy a guy in a plane dropped a glass bottle out on a group of people who had never seen a plain before. they had never seen anything outside of thier own village. the bottle was nothing to people who had seen and used one for what they ment to be used for. these people had no ideal what the bottle was,how to use it, or what advantages it could give them. they got into fights over it. they hurt each other over it. until it arrived there had been no trouble in the village. one man took it upon himself to go to the end of the earth and throw it off.

you seem to have come from that same village.

the simple fact is they tune the rifle muzzle (is my guess) to were the bullets exit when the muzzle is at almost the same spot everytime.

you yourself admit they give a 2-5% better average. would you want to shoot against somebody you knew had a 2-5% better chance of hiting exactly what they are aiming for over you? i bet you wouldn't. then again even with your saying they improve a rifle 2-5% and then saying they do nothing at all is a oximoron in its own.

mr. nobody
11-02-2009, 12:12 AM
wilber,

are you having fun with us and using a different name;)??

Benchrester
11-02-2009, 02:04 AM
At least you admit you don't know how they work, and I never said they didn't help. But you say "thier rifle tuned right and a great lot of ammo." I say you're half right. Take the great lot of ammo, stick eight ounces of weight up there around the end of the barrel. Flush is okay, but past the end may be a little better, never touch it, don't adjust it, and you're gonna do just as well. Of course, you're never gonna know it because you want to think you've changed something for the good. That's cool. We've got $250 tuners now because we need to look good when all we need is something that weighs about eight ounces and is capable of being clamped to the barrel.

You ought to try shooting a sniper rifle with a silencer after shooting same rifle without. The accuracy increase in amazing. The purpose is not to increase accuracy.

In Soviet Russia rifle tunes you.

Bill Wynne
11-02-2009, 06:03 AM
I've shot competition but just starte BR so there probably are no meaningful stats. My name is Jury Sukhorukov. I don't shoot in the U.S. but have shot some BR. I've done a little competition shooting. I don't use a tuner. They do nothing for me.

Benchrester, are you this guy?

Jury Sukhorukov
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Medal record
Competitor for Ukraine
Men's shooting
Olympic Games
Silver 2008 Beijing Men's 50 m rifle 3 pos
Jury Sukhorukov (born March 29, 1968) is an Olympic shooter from Ukraine. He won a silver medal in the Men's 50 metre rifle three positions event at the 2008 Summer Olympics in Beijing.[1][2]

Concho Bill

Benchrester
11-02-2009, 06:37 AM
I'm not from Wikipedia. But yes.

crb
11-02-2009, 06:59 AM
Russia must have the most super consistent ammo factories in the world. Too bad they won't export to the free world where we have to get by with Eley EPS.

mr. nobody
11-02-2009, 07:11 AM
At least you admit you don't know how they work, and I never said they didn't help. But you say "thier rifle tuned right and a great lot of ammo." I say you're half right. Take the great lot of ammo, stick eight ounces of weight up there around the end of the barrel. Flush is okay, but past the end may be a little better, never touch it, don't adjust it, and you're gonna do just as well. Of course, you're never gonna know it because you want to think you've changed something for the good. That's cool. We've got $250 tuners now because we need to look good when all we need is something that weighs about eight ounces and is capable of being clamped to the barrel.

You ought to try shooting a sniper rifle with a silencer after shooting same rifle without. The accuracy increase in amazing. The purpose is not to increase accuracy.

In Soviet Russia rifle tunes you.


i have shot silenced rifles and pistols before at our range. i noticed a fall off of accuracy on them and a loss of range as well. silencers are only legal here after you jump through flaming hoops and sign away a arm and leg to the government. we could be getting low grade cans here as well. all they do is trap the gas pushing the bullet down the barrel to reduse muzzle report. sub sonic ammo also helps with a can to reduce the muzzle report. i wonder if your silencers are made at the sametime the barrel is. what i'm saying is are they rifled to match the barrel perfectly? if not they are kinda acting like a tuner by holding the muzzle down.

Benchrester
11-02-2009, 07:32 AM
Russia must have the most super consistent ammo factories in the world. Too bad they won't export to the free world where we have to get by with Eley EPS.

Russia might, but the Ukraine does not. I shot and shoot Eley Tenex. I think the testing rigors are a little more stringent than what you do. But China uses some great ammunition. White box. There's no rule that says you have to disclose your ammo as long as the judges rule it legal.

Dan
11-02-2009, 08:25 AM
This is where you're wrong. First of all almost every little club has a .22 contingent who happily shoot their 10-22's or Anschutz's without tuners and there are plenty of skilled shooters. All you need to do is pick one. Reading the wind is a non-issue because you need to conduct this experiment with a littl condition as possible. The shooter, unless an idiot, would have to figure out what the tuner is for, but he has no preconceived ideas of whether it should increase or decrease accuracy depending on the way it's turned. Try it. The tuner does help with vertical to an extent 2-5%, which is enough to justify it given the tight scores in today's matches. It does little or nothing past that no matter where it's moved.

If you believe otherwise, you're wrong.


Really! I would not have guessed there were a lot of 10/22's in the Ukraine. Possibly it's a translation thing that is keeping you from understanding the silliness of the experiment you propose. Or maybe this is just a joke brought to us under an alias. I won't play anymore.

Racinready300ex
11-02-2009, 08:38 AM
Benchrester what's yo real name so we can look up your stats and see what kind of scores you're shooting? Lots' of folks posting on this forum don't have any idea just how good these rimfires really tuned up with top notch ammo will actually group in ideal conditions, Do they Pappas?:) Tuners do work, no doubt.

Now that, I realise you must good stats to post here I'll be sure to stop. And I'll continue to just shoot for fun on the weekends. And every now and then read the threads on here "why is attendance down" and such and such.:eek:

DonMatzeder
11-02-2009, 08:42 AM
You don't need good stats to post. They help when you're trying to tell everyone else how to do it though.

crb
11-02-2009, 09:06 AM
You don't need good stats to post. They help when you're trying to tell everyone else how to do it though.

If that was an enforced rule this forum would only have a couple of hundred posts instead of 59,000 :eek::D

I wonder if that 59,000 includes all the deleted stuff :D:p

Benchrester
11-02-2009, 09:26 AM
Really! I would not have guessed there were a lot of 10/22's in the Ukraine. Possibly it's a translation thing that is keeping you from understanding the silliness of the experiment you propose. Or maybe this is just a joke brought to us under an alias. I won't play anymore.


Actually more than you probably think but I know there are a lot in the United States as I have been there extensively. Mostly in the Ukraine, at clubs, you will see Anschutz 64's, CZ's and probably a few you've never heard of, but it's the same difference.

squatty
11-02-2009, 09:29 AM
Benchrester,

You mention putting 8 ounces at the muzzle. Does this mean if you put just 6 ounces on your muzzle your rifle would not shoot as good? Or, does it mean if you went up to 10 ounces on your muzzle your rifle might shoot better?

The Ukraine must be wonderful this time of year.

martin hammond
11-02-2009, 10:04 AM
benchrester, global warming and barrel tuning both have one thing in common. if in the begining they were called what they really are, climate change and barrel timing every person would understand the two.

Benchrester
11-02-2009, 11:03 AM
Have to disagree Martin. Climate change is a result of global warming. And I've watched this board for a long time and never saw anybody but you use the phrase "barrel timing". You coined it; you keep it.

But on second thought, tell me what a tuner is and how it works?

Benchrester
11-02-2009, 11:06 AM
Benchrester,

You mention putting 8 ounces at the muzzle. Does this mean if you put just 6 ounces on your muzzle your rifle would not shoot as good? Or, does it mean if you went up to 10 ounces on your muzzle your rifle might shoot better?

The Ukraine must be wonderful this time of year.

Six ounces may work as well as 10. I think somewhere you would get too light to have an effect adn too heavy to be practical. I just used eight because they all seem to weigh eight. I bet if you could trace why, it would be that Calfee's original tuner weighed eight. When Calfee speaks everybody listens. He used to be E.F. Hutton you know.

squatty
11-02-2009, 11:09 AM
Whew!

I do believe this is all giving me the vapohs.

pacecil
11-02-2009, 11:12 AM
What Sukhorukov is stating is that prone or position shooters cannot detect the effect of a tuner on their shooting. This is something I've confirmed with a few of the best shooters in the world (national champions). This has been my own experience too. The effect of tuners on a rifle shot from the bench is more easily "sensed", but still very difficult to measure.

This is not to say most rifles will not show improvement when weight is added to the barrel but this is not quite what most shooters claim as "tuning", or "timing". They in general are talking about moving the weight a small amount to achieve some improvement in accuracy.

Most shooters will start with a pretty good rifle - without a tuner - probably something shooting .350 to maybe .250 group averages. They hope the tuner will hold their average down around the low end of those averages but with the nature of a rim fire to spread it's group about .05 either side of the average it becomes really difficult to pin down just what the tuner is doing. When a "sweet spot" is reached in the tuning process it is in many cases just a "gut feel" reaction to what the rifle is doing, rather than something occurring in fact.

martin hammond
11-02-2009, 11:29 AM
pacecil, disagree there is a reason anshutz put the reverse taper barrel on their posistion rifles. that's the sporter version of a tuner and 10 years from know those who do their own lathe work will be doing to 10.5 and 13lb rifles. the sporter guys are a few years ahead of the heavy rifle guys. just like the air rifles were ahead of the .22 guys a few years back.

martin hammond
11-02-2009, 11:32 AM
benchrester if you have followed these threads and posts you know how my tuners work. what you don't know is how these other guys tuners work.

Kent Owens
11-02-2009, 12:27 PM
martin,
Some guys have been making the muzzle end of 10.5 rifle barrels larger than the rest of the barrel for quite some time, so that idea isn't ten years out, it's been done. A friend of mine did it for a long time, but I think he stopped doing it because he couldn't tell a difference with a properly lapped RF barrel. He's built some great rifles. It's a big world, and most of the stuff thought up on this forum has already been done, or is being done now, without being spoke of. Until an idea has proven itself consistently in competition, it has little relevance to the competitors. And it confuses the crap out of the new guys trying to get started!

squatty
11-02-2009, 01:11 PM
Six ounces may work as well as 10. I think somewhere you would get too light to have an effect adn too heavy to be practical. I just used eight because they all seem to weigh eight. I bet if you could trace why, it would be that Calfee's original tuner weighed eight. When Calfee speaks everybody listens. He used to be E.F. Hutton you know.

Thanks for your response

Earlier you said we could put 8 ounces on our muzzles, flush or in front, and if we moved the weight forward, or rearward an inch, the gun would not shoot any different.

This is probably going to sound like Calfee, heaven forbid, but if the weight in of itself is what causes a tuner to produce better accuracy, then 8 ounces would be better than 6 and 10 ounces would be better than 8 and 12 ounces would be better than 10 and, well you see where I'm going.

For some reason I have a feeling that the weight in and of itself is not what causes a tuner, muzzle device as Calfee calls them, to produce increased accuracy.

Benchrester
11-02-2009, 01:26 PM
Squatty,

I've been watcching this thread waiting for your reply, and it's exactly as expected.

There's a law called the "law of diminishing returns". Generally used in economics but has application here too.

For instance, I need a paperweight. Half pound of lead will do, so there's no further return if I use 40 pounds of lead. I just have to lift more lead.

The affect on vertical seems to maximize at around eight ounces. Calfee set it years ago. Some people use more weight and it might be beneficial in some places, but probably after ten ounces you have virtually no return. Four ounces will help some, but two ounces is going to be barely noticable.

Just try what I said, you'll find it to be true.

Benchrester
11-02-2009, 01:28 PM
benchrester if you have followed these threads and posts you know how my tuners work. what you don't know is how these other guys tuners work.

Martin, I didn't know you had your own tuner. But yes I have followed. And you simply say that you have to release the bullet at the top of the curve basically. But you still can't or won't answer how you do that and how you know when you're there other than some targets you photo. And, no disrespect intended, but your targets are unimpressive.

Vibe
11-02-2009, 02:02 PM
Some people use more weight and it might be beneficial in some places, but probably after ten ounces you have virtually no return. Four ounces will help some, but two ounces is going to be barely noticable.

Just try what I said, you'll find it to be true.
You mentioned the accuracy gain using a suppressor.....How much did it weigh?
Less than 8 oz.?
Was it just the extra weight that made the difference?
Take the suppressor off and add a similar solid mass of steel....are the results anywhere near similar?

Just for grins and giggles...was that a Reflex suppressor?

squatty
11-02-2009, 02:05 PM
Squatty,

I've been watcching this thread waiting for your reply, and it's exactly as expected.

There's a law called the "law of diminishing returns". Generally used in economics but has application here too.

For instance, I need a paperweight. Half pound of lead will do, so there's no further return if I use 40 pounds of lead. I just have to lift more lead.

The affect on vertical seems to maximize at around eight ounces. Calfee set it years ago. Some people use more weight and it might be beneficial in some places, but probably after ten ounces you have virtually no return. Four ounces will help some, but two ounces is going to be barely noticable.

Just try what I said, you'll find it to be true.

Benchrester:

I have tried it and it does not work. I would bet 99% of all rimfire benchresters have, in their own way, tried it to.

I would venture to say it would be difficult to find one single, serious, big name rimfire benchrester that would agree.

Again this is going to sound like Calfee, but how would he say it; Folks, man, it ain't the weight itself that makes the darn thing work. Folks, man, it's the correct weight for your barrel correctly positioned in front of the muzzle that makes the dang thing work. (Sorry Bill)

martin hammond
11-02-2009, 02:05 PM
Kent, it seems to me Gordon Eck whose building these awesome sporters has figured it out. benchrester when you fall off a cliff you get the picture where the edge is.

Jetmugg
11-02-2009, 02:16 PM
Just wait a MOMENT....

Benchrester
11-02-2009, 02:19 PM
You mentioned the accuracy gain using a suppressor.....How much did it weigh?
Less than 8 oz.?
Was it just the extra weight that made the difference?
Take the suppressor off and add a similar solid mass of steel....are the results anywhere near similar?

Just for grins and giggles...was that a Reflex suppressor?


No, just a muzzle-mounted suppressors with a single-point mounting system. Basically crude, just threaded with a small shoulder to align it. I don't know what it weighed, I just noticed that there was an increase in accuracy.

The reflex mounting system with dual point mounting and the expansion chamber back over the barrel would probably be better and emulate a tuner better, but I've never used one.

Vibe
11-02-2009, 02:22 PM
Just wait a MOMENT....
Don't you mean just WEIGHT a MOMENT? :D

Dan
11-02-2009, 02:27 PM
Don't you mean just WEIGHT a MOMENT? :D

Oh, I see what you did there. The moment force is strong in this one.

Vibe
11-02-2009, 02:37 PM
The moment force is strong in this one.
Sum are forces...Sum are Torques. :D

Dan
11-02-2009, 02:39 PM
And the sum of the forces are torque. This thread is finally worth sumthing.

Keith23
11-02-2009, 02:39 PM
You said you are shooting Eley. Can you not get Russian Temp? Or do you just perfer Eley?

Any chance of shipping any of that good Chinese ammo over here?

martin hammond
11-02-2009, 04:50 PM
well, benchrester is in luck. there appears to be a number of books coming out that should tune this down. Calffe has a book, Bill the piano tuner has one, I think it's sheet music mostly charmin. and then hopefully the sporter guys shooting those 6.5x scopes will tell us all how it's really done.:D

B.Allred
11-02-2009, 04:51 PM
a turner is actually lying to the barrel. It is moving the dead spot to the end ,right at the muzzle.

Madrox
11-02-2009, 07:32 PM
well, benchrester is in luck. there appears to be a number of books coming out that should tune this down. Calffe has a book, Bill the piano tuner has one, I think it's sheet music mostly charmin. and then hopefully the sporter guys shooting those 6.5x scopes will tell us all how it's really done.:D

Well, maybe somebody will use one of the books to wipe you up.

martin hammond
11-02-2009, 07:42 PM
won't happen and you can take that to the bank.

Madrox
11-02-2009, 07:56 PM
Guess you'll be around until the flies eat you then.

Madrox
11-02-2009, 07:57 PM
Sum are forces...Sum are Torques. :D

Nothing like a little physics humor. Did you guys try out for "Big Bang Theory". Probably couldn't figure the bang part out anyway.

Benchrester
11-02-2009, 08:43 PM
Benchrester:

I have tried it and it does not work. I would bet 99% of all rimfire benchresters have, in their own way, tried it to.

I would venture to say it would be difficult to find one single, serious, big name rimfire benchrester that would agree.

Again this is going to sound like Calfee, but how would he say it; Folks, man, it ain't the weight itself that makes the darn thing work. Folks, man, it's the correct weight for your barrel correctly positioned in front of the muzzle that makes the dang thing work. (Sorry Bill)

I doubt if you've tried what I'm saying. I say get you some decent shooters (trust me they're everywhere) that don't have a preconceived idea about a tuner. You do all the adjusting, they shouldn't even know what you think it will do. Without the preconception, the tuner loses a lot of its "effect".

martin hammond
11-02-2009, 08:59 PM
festivus pole is going up early this year.:eek:

404tbang
11-02-2009, 09:03 PM
Howdy Benchrester!
Not tuner related (yet), but do you have any knowledge of the Brno #3S (Stecher) target rifle? They had double set triggers that were adjustable to a very low trigger pull weight. They were supposed to have been used by the Czech 1956 Olympic team. They were also supposed to have been very difficult to outshoot in the 1950's.

It is one thing to get information here in the States, it would seem that information from you could be very helpful if you have better, more helpful resources.

Thank you!
Greg

tim
11-02-2009, 11:30 PM
Squatty,

I've been watcching this thread waiting for your reply, and it's exactly as expected.

There's a law called the "law of diminishing returns". Generally used in economics but has application here too.

For instance, I need a paperweight. Half pound of lead will do, so there's no further return if I use 40 pounds of lead. I just have to lift more lead.

The affect on vertical seems to maximize at around eight ounces. Calfee set it years ago. Some people use more weight and it might be beneficial in some places, but probably after ten ounces you have virtually no return. Four ounces will help some, but two ounces is going to be barely noticable.

Just try what I said, you'll find it to be true.

I think what many people in this country have tried with very heavy tuner weight is that they do not, in fact, "tune" the barrel but overwhelm the barrel vibration with excess weight. I believe they realize that over time that process results in a gun that will shoot well sometimes but often not. Might I ask, in your country, what equipment do you have available for bench shooting? Are there some enthusiasts?

Benchrester
11-03-2009, 02:04 AM
There are many enthusiasts. It's really the only way to own a gun, but those restrictions have been eased over the last few years. The equipment is similar to your own. I use a Ferarri front rest and yes it's made by the car company. Most European equipment is easy to come by. Eley really is not, but Russian or Chinese ammo is unavailable, so there are ammo shortages. You must pick and choose when you shoot. I spend much time in the United States now as I do have roots here or I have roots in the Ukraine depending on how you see it. The easy access to guns in general is not there, but to sporting rifles, I would say it is comeparable except there are no custom gunsmiths. At least not in name.

To answer 404, I have seen many BRNO 3S, but never one with double set triggers although I do not doubt they existed. They may have been hard to beat back then, but probably not now.

andyd1179
11-03-2009, 04:35 AM
Sorry Benchrest but you are talking rubbish that your Benchrest is made by the car company Ferrari, it's actually made by a little old Italian man and for those that want to check out the Ferrari rest here is a link: http://www.ferrariotello.com/ I am sure all would agree if it was the car manfacturer it would much better website, and the other question is why would the car maker want to make benchrest!!

Go figure!

AndyD

Bill Wynne
11-03-2009, 06:33 AM
Well Andy,

From what little I could see from the home page photo, the rest was made with skill and pride by someone who cared. I am sure you are right about it not being part of the car company's product line.

Benchrester, I am glad to see your views on this forum. While there is a bit of bull tossed here from time to time, some of the world's best benchrest shooters post here. A wise man can learn from some of these posts.

Concho Bill

Benchrester
11-03-2009, 08:18 AM
Sorry Benchrest but you are talking rubbish that your Benchrest is made by the car company Ferrari, it's actually made by a little old Italian man and for those that want to check out the Ferrari rest here is a link: http://www.ferrariotello.com/ I am sure all would agree if it was the car manfacturer it would much better website, and the other question is why would the car maker want to make benchrest!!

Go figure!

AndyD

Well, like I said, I'm new to benchrest. i was just going by what I was told. I thought maybe Italian companies were like Japanese companies. Make everything

spencer313
11-03-2009, 10:31 AM
I'm not from Wikipedia. But yes.

Jury, I am a fan of olympic shooting. What type of rifle did you use in the 50m 3P to get your silver?

Benchrester
11-03-2009, 01:01 PM
I'm sorry, there is a reason that equipment lists are not made. Matt may be able to advertise, but I am not.

Benchrester
11-03-2009, 01:02 PM
Sorry Benchrest but you are talking rubbish that your Benchrest is made by the car company Ferrari, it's actually made by a little old Italian man and for those that want to check out the Ferrari rest here is a link: http://www.ferrariotello.com/ I am sure all would agree if it was the car manfacturer it would much better website, and the other question is why would the car maker want to make benchrest!!

Go figure!

AndyD

I so love the English.

Vibe
11-03-2009, 03:23 PM
why would the car maker want to make benchrest!!

AndyD
Well Rifles have been made by Singer Sewing Machine Company and even IBM...Why would a car maker NOT want to make benchrests??

Tom C.
11-03-2009, 06:19 PM
nice looking rests, well made. some possible ferrari colors. fast steering.

spencer313
11-03-2009, 06:28 PM
I'm sorry, there is a reason that equipment lists are not made. Matt may be able to advertise, but I am not.

I have no idea what you mean. It was a simple question.

Benchrester
11-03-2009, 06:49 PM
I understood your question and did my best to answer it without going into detail. It was a simple answer.

J Pappas
11-03-2009, 09:03 PM
I have no idea what you mean. It was a simple question.

Matt is a U.S. shooter, as in "land of the free".
Benchrester is a shooter from the Ukraine.

spencer313
11-03-2009, 09:29 PM
Matt is a U.S. shooter, as in "land of the free".
Benchrester is a shooter from the Ukraine.

OK. No problem.

Спасибо.

Big Al
11-04-2009, 08:55 AM
Tuners suck. I know this will not be greeted with overwhelming joy, but I know tuners can suck if you have the type of personality that wants to fiddle around with the darn things. Don't really have a good fundamental of how to get the best use out of a tuner. Don't understand what a tuner is capable of doing for your rifle.

For every shooter that asks a turner maker how to adjust his tuner, I'll bet a hundred more don't ask.:D

Benchrester
11-04-2009, 01:02 PM
Hey Al,

What is a tuner and how does it work?

Bob Kingsbury
11-04-2009, 02:08 PM
When you say Tuners suck, is this from experience with a Rimfire Benchrest
gun or in say 50 meter Freestyle

J Pappas
11-04-2009, 03:22 PM
What kind of tuner do you use or have you tried? Have you shot a score target to find out what kind of scores your rifle is shooting?

martin hammond
11-04-2009, 03:37 PM
after testing and studying all that was posted on this forum for the past 2 years,I figured anywhere from 60-70% of all benchrest rifles were not tuned properly. I now think that figure is low.

J Pappas
11-04-2009, 04:44 PM
after testing and studying all that was posted on this forum for the past 2 years,I figured anywhere from 60-70% of all benchrest rifles were not tuned properly. I now think that figure is low.

You ought to go to Piney Hill this weekend to the Unlimited Indoor Nationals, and teach them guys how to tune their rifles. You might learn a thing or two, also.

martin hammond
11-04-2009, 04:55 PM
James, from all the posts these past 2 years it seems 3 from pennsylvania, 1 from west virginia and 1 from north carolina are the only shooters to post a how to, so I figure that's about all that have a clue. and I do beleive 2500's and 250's can be shot with an untuned rifle. and untuned rifles are the main reason 250 25x's aren't being shot regularlly with these custom rifles.

Benchrester
11-04-2009, 05:21 PM
Bob Kingsbury,

It would be almost impossible to test a tuner on a freestyle rifle without putting it on a bench. What I am saying, I have tried. Tuners do reduce vertical. Movement of the tuner does little. Now, of course if you move it from the muzzle back to the receiver it will not help the vertical, at least not much. So the tuner does need t be around the muzzle and preferabley a little past it. Try it on novice (and I mean novice to a tuner) shooters. I'm telling you you can move the tuner all over the place and they have not preconceived ideas and it does little .

James Pappas

A Harrel tuner. Generally I use RBA or IR 50/50 targets and I seldom count X's, so 250's are not difficult with or without the tuner. Scanning the target does not indicate a lot of shots towards the center if the tuner is on. So, I see little difference. However, I have tried your slide, which I consider only nominally a tuner, and yes it does make a difference. It will make a difference even when used by people who have never seen one. The sliding weight does little unless used to regulate the expansion chamber as expected. Your idea has been done more than once although yours is the biggest diameter I have seen. Now peple will accuse me of working for you but I will make this statement. "If I was going to use a tuner, I would not use one without a slide". That's my opinion nothing more. Basically get a slide from you and cut to length. I have one of yours that is about four inches long. It makes a visible difference.

Keith23
11-04-2009, 05:28 PM
James, from all the posts these past 2 years it seems 3 from pennsylvania, 1 from west virginia and 1 from north carolina are the only shooters to post a how to, so I figure that's about all that have a clue. and I do beleive 2500's and 250's can be shot with an untuned rifle. and untuned rifles are the main reason 250 25x's aren't being shot regularlly with these custom rifles.

Marty, you may be right about the 250's, I think you shot a couple, but I don't know about the 2500's. Have you been shooting ARA as well?

I'm just kidding, I'm just kidding , I'm just kidding.

But really why don't you come to Piney Hill this weekend and shoot indoors.

With a tuned rifle it should be a piece of cake to shoot them 250 25X's with no pesky wind to bother you.

You will meet some great guys, and I'm sure you will enjoy yourself.

martin hammond
11-04-2009, 05:36 PM
Keith and James, I know I do not have the skill's of experienced shooters as you guys. but I do understand tuning and know a rifle can shoot lights out untuned. look at the shooter who placed a mid barrel tuner on his rifle. the rifle came alive and he won a major championship. he did that with an untuned rifle. I have yet to hear any of you that have criticize others offer your tuning tips. I'll put my thoughts out here and take the hits lets here you guys tell all of us how you do it. please share your ideas with us on tuning.

Keith23
11-04-2009, 05:53 PM
Keith and James, I know I do not have the skill's of experienced shooters as you guys. but I do understand tuning and know a rifle can shoot lights out untuned. look at the shooter who placed a mid barrel tuner on his rifle. the rifle came alive and he won a major championship. he did that with an untuned rifle. I have yet to hear any of you that have criticize others offer your tuning tips. I'll put my thoughts out here and take the hits lets here you guys tell all of us how you do it. please share your ideas with us on tuning.

I have put about all I know about tuning on these boards and many have told me I'm wrong, and who knows, I may be.

James manufactures tuners he has explained his thoughts to more people than I can count.

Truth is it really doesn't matter who is right or who is wrong. This game rewards those that perform and you have to be at the match to perform!

Come on out and shoot. Luray isn't that far, besides where else can you shoot 50 yards indoors?

Madrox
11-04-2009, 06:06 PM
Keith and James, I know I do not have the skill's of experienced shooters as you guys. but I do understand tuning and know a rifle can shoot lights out untuned. look at the shooter who placed a mid barrel tuner on his rifle. the rifle came alive and he won a major championship. he did that with an untuned rifle. I have yet to hear any of you that have criticize others offer your tuning tips. I'll put my thoughts out here and take the hits lets here you guys tell all of us how you do it. please share your ideas with us on tuning.


I've never seen you put your ideas out there unless the idea is simply "I'm right and you're wrong". You've never really said what you do and how you know you're correct when you do whatever it is you don't want to tell us.

J Pappas
11-04-2009, 06:29 PM
Keith and James, I know I do not have the skill's of experienced shooters as you guys. but I do understand tuning and know a rifle can shoot lights out untuned. look at the shooter who placed a mid barrel tuner on his rifle. the rifle came alive and he won a major championship. he did that with an untuned rifle. I have yet to hear any of you that have criticize others offer your tuning tips. I'll put my thoughts out here and take the hits lets here you guys tell all of us how you do it. please share your ideas with us on tuning.

You are of course talking about Brian Brant, the winner of the ARA Nationals and the last PSL match. In the last 2 years the rifle you say is untuned has shot more 2400+ targets and won more matches than 99.9% of the people who shoot ARA. Are you sure that rifle is untuned? What do you base that observation on, your graphs and targets you post? I have NEVER, EVER seen a untuned rifle shoots "light out". I think you would be the only person on BRC to make a statement like that.

martin hammond
11-04-2009, 06:39 PM
James, I base that on just the statement that he added a mid barrel tuner and the rifle came to life. that tells me his rifle was tuned well before it reached it peak of travel and had not settled down. when a rifle is nearing it's peak it's jerking motions slow.it's obvious that by addition of a mid barrel tuner his rifle is not even close to the upswing. that's what those graphs were showing if you turned them upside down. those peaks were the rifle jerking motion on it's upward travel. it appears about 1/2oz to 1.0oz weight added before the barrel starts downward is when it settles down. and how you know the barrel is headed downwards is. the groups open up, they fall below the x ring and you think someone put federal 510's in your eley match box.

J Pappas
11-04-2009, 06:50 PM
James, I base that on just the statement that he added a mid barrel tuner and the rifle came to life. that tells me his rifle was tuned well before it reached it peak of travel and had not settled down. when a rifle is nearing it's peak it's jerking motions slow.it's obvious that by addition of a mid barrel tuner his rifle is not even close to the upswing. that's what those graphs were showing if you turned them upside down. those peaks were the rifle jerking motion on it's upward travel. it appears about 1/2oz to 1.0oz weight added before the barrel starts downward is when it settles down. and how you know the barrel is headed downwards is. the groups open up, they fall below the x ring and you think someone put federal 510's in your eley match box.

The only thing that is obvious is you don't have a shooting record to back up your statements. Your lack of shooting skill is compound by the fact that your tuning skill is nil and you don't know the difference. Good luck Martin, if you don't shoot in matches you are missing a chance to learn and have a good time. Its your loss.

martin hammond
11-04-2009, 06:58 PM
James, look at the post about extreme velocity. look at the last post about droping the widest variant. that would have been a dropper in a tuned but not fully tuned rifle. I may not have the tourniment experience that you madrox and Tony have. but I'll bet I've done more testing with lots of ammo and had as much range time as any. probably had as much range time experimenting as multiple shooters. and your right if I had an experienced shooters record there would be no argument about tuning. but James it only takes one dropper to kill a good target.:D

J Pappas
11-04-2009, 08:28 PM
If I say anymore I will be on a sabattical with Beau.

martin hammond
11-04-2009, 09:12 PM
James, I have answered over 70 emails, talked on the phone for hours. answered and sent dozens of pms, many emails from different countries and from some top shooters. not once was it personall. it was discusions on tuning and timing, what I've tried and what others have tried. why should what's posted here be any different.

Beau
11-04-2009, 09:26 PM
But what was the nature of the phone calls. You're like a snake oil salesman. You've got the solution, and you've figured it out, but you're not gonna say what it is. That's because you don't really know. You're a kook.

J Pappas
11-04-2009, 09:33 PM
James, I have answered over 70 emails, talked on the phone for hours. answered and sent dozens of pms, many emails from different countries and from some top shooters. not once was it personall. it was discusions on tuning and timing, what I've tried and what others have tried. why should what's posted here be any different.

Martin, we will always disagree, I don't believe untuned rimfire rifles can beat the best rimfire shooters in the country at the ARA Nationals. I don't believe that DJ, Craig Young and David K. could win the World Championship with untuned rifles. I don't believe that Craig Young and David K. can shoot 5 matches in the PSL and come in 1st and 2nd with untuned rifles. I don't believe that Don M. and Marion Collier and Fred Leeds are fighting it out to win the A-Line with untuned rifles. I could go on but most people get my point. Apparently you do believe that none of these people are shooting tuned rifles. I get tired of saying it.

gambler
11-04-2009, 09:48 PM
i got a theory.....brian Brandt did not shoot the winning score...the shots came from the roof of the St. Louis club house buy a second shooter using a tuned rifle ,and every body knows the Texas shoot came from the grassy knoll:eek:

Kent Owens
11-04-2009, 09:51 PM
James,
Craig sure might be out of tune, but his rifle sure ain't:) He's a good boy though, even outta tune.

J Pappas
11-04-2009, 10:00 PM
James,
Craig sure might be out of tune, but his rifle sure ain't:) He's a good boy though, even outta tune.

Craig marches to the tune of a different drummer but he may own the best shooting 22 rimfire out there.

martin hammond
11-04-2009, 10:04 PM
Beau and james, tuning with 3 speeds as I have been doing the only advice I have received is maybe 2 extreme velocitys would do the same and a chronograph would be helpful. other than that not 1 from a educational backround has said wait a minute. only those involved emotionally. if setting a tuner untill the rounds drop and open into flyers and backing form there and selelecting the least vertical is wrong please tell me. you can't. all you can do is name calling. because something has been wrong and shooters have found a way to make it work for 20 years doesn't make it sound judgement and a reason for it to continue to do it that way for 20 more years. when I went to the firing line this year, looked at every rifle saw bloop tubes, barrel dampners and tire weights as tuning weights it was pretty obvious what rifles are tuned. James you may sell a product and Calfee may sell a product but the only product out there capable of tuning a rifle without modifications is the Von-Ahrens tuner and weight set. you guys might not like that answer but that's the way it is. if not prove me wrong with logic not emotions. all your supposed knowledge on tuning I've been waiting for someone to discuss extending the collar on the tuners but not one of you experts has asked what that would do. because you flat out don't understand what a fired barrel really does. someone made you guys a rifle and said go shoot it. and that's about the extent of it.

J Pappas
11-04-2009, 10:14 PM
Beau and james, tuning with 3 speeds as I have been doing the only advice I have received is maybe 2 extreme velocitys would do the same and a chronograph would be helpful. other than that not 1 from a educational backround has said wait a minute. only those involved emotionally. if setting a tuner untill the rounds drop and open into flyers and backing form there and selelecting the least vertical is wrong please tell me. you can't. all you can do is name calling. because something has been wrong and shooters have found a way to make it work for 20 years doesn't make it sound judgement and a reason for it to continue to do it that way for 20 more years. when I went to the firing line this year, looked at every rifle saw bloop tubes, barrel dampners and tire weights as tuning weights it was pretty obvious what rifles are tuned. James you may sell a product and Calfee may sell a product but the only product out there capable of tuning a rifle without modifications is the Von-Ahrens tuner and weight set. you guys might not like that answer but that's the way it is. if not prove me wrong with logic not emotions. all your supposed knowledge on tuning I've been waiting for someone to discuss extending the collar on the tuners but not one of you experts has asked what that would do. because you flat out don't understand what a fired barrel really does. someone made you guys a rifle and said go shoot it. and that's about the extent of it.

Well Martin you won't like this but most of the 2500 targets shot this year in ARA were using a parallel noodle. You do realize that the von Ahrens tuner is an adaptation of Bill Calfee's idea, right?

Kent Owens
11-04-2009, 11:40 PM
James,
Craig keeps that Duke gun locked up and just brings it out on special occasions. I think he's saving it, and I don't blame him, it's a good one!

bob finger
11-05-2009, 06:30 AM
Martin: The Von Ahrens and Harrells tuners are the same principal and tune exactly the same way. One might be easier to get into tune than the other but the rifle won't know the difference once tuned. Prove it to yourself. I did. The RVA is easier to clean (and tune) tho in my opinion. Its a bloop tube thing. Once tuned who cares...... bob finger

Tom C.
11-05-2009, 07:09 AM
do you know how much the harrell tuner w/o any weight
or cap weighs? how about the von aherns w/o anything?
it doesn't say in killough's ad. i thought the harrell's run
8 or 9 ozs bare, and the von aherns about 4 ozs. and if anyone
knows i have one of the old hoehn-harrell tuners that came
on my suhl did that weigh 9oz plus 3oz permanent cap. thanks.

bob finger
11-05-2009, 07:27 AM
Tom: Thats close. I can't find my notes right now and both rifles are tuned and ready for the weekend so I don't want to remove anything to weigh them again. You are within 1/2 ounce on both of them I suspect.

Every tuner is going to be a bit different too depending on how big the bore hole for the barrel is. bob finger

Fiddler
11-05-2009, 07:43 AM
I have both style tuners on my guns. The harrel that I have weights in at 8.8 oz bare with no extra weight. The Von Ahrens that I have weights in at 3.8 oz bare with out the bloob or 1/2oz cap.

Benchrester
11-05-2009, 07:56 AM
Beau and james, tuning with 3 speeds as I have been doing the only advice I have received is maybe 2 extreme velocitys would do the same and a chronograph would be helpful. other than that not 1 from a educational backround has said wait a minute. only those involved emotionally. if setting a tuner untill the rounds drop and open into flyers and backing form there and selelecting the least vertical is wrong please tell me. you can't. all you can do is name calling. because something has been wrong and shooters have found a way to make it work for 20 years doesn't make it sound judgement and a reason for it to continue to do it that way for 20 more years. when I went to the firing line this year, looked at every rifle saw bloop tubes, barrel dampners and tire weights as tuning weights it was pretty obvious what rifles are tuned. James you may sell a product and Calfee may sell a product but the only product out there capable of tuning a rifle without modifications is the Von-Ahrens tuner and weight set. you guys might not like that answer but that's the way it is. if not prove me wrong with logic not emotions. all your supposed knowledge on tuning I've been waiting for someone to discuss extending the collar on the tuners but not one of you experts has asked what that would do. because you flat out don't understand what a fired barrel really does. someone made you guys a rifle and said go shoot it. and that's about the extent of it.


And you decided that someone put you on earth to tune rifles, yet you never say how. I don't beleive you can tune any better than anyone else or that you know anymore than anyone else. Tuners will not do what any of you think.

Tom C.
11-05-2009, 08:10 AM
thanks guys.

Tom C.
11-05-2009, 08:15 AM
benchrester i read your post about the pappas tuner, were you
saying you thought moving the slide to cover or uncover ports
seemed to have more effect than where the weight was actually
placed?

Benchrester
11-05-2009, 09:25 AM
benchrester i read your post about the pappas tuner, were you
saying you thought moving the slide to cover or uncover ports
seemed to have more effect than where the weight was actually
placed?

That has been my experience, yes. I believe, although I have not tried this, if the Papps bloop tube was made slightly smaller in diameter it would have an even greater effect. I have no way to prove that and I do not endorse making it the size of a typical bloop tube. Just slightly smaller. But it works the way it is, just a little too long. But cutting is not a probelm.

glynn angle
11-05-2009, 09:32 AM
Why did you come on this forum ??? Just to blow smoke outta your hind parts ??? Your grasp of the English language is too good to be a former Rusky

Bobby T.
11-05-2009, 11:33 AM
First as an outsider reading all of this it appears not to add up for instance reading what benchrester claims that slapping ONLY 8 ounces of weight is all one needs but yet he is using a harell tuner and a papas slider that has been cut down and using the collar. if you add that weight my guess his tuner would weigh in around 11-13 ounces he actually has more weight than what he claims and more weight forward of crown not even going to guess where his tuner is set and states he see's a visible difference. :confused:

Second martin hammond claims that more than 60-70% of the rifles are not tuned especially the calfee rifles and states that number could be a lot higher. I believe i have a understanding of what he is doing but don't understand why he is so persistent to state that the top shooters really don't understand how to tune a rifle and his way is the only way but for myself this back and forth stuff is getting old. I assume he is trying to help with what he has found to be true. What i would like to see is for martin to sit down with a top shooter use his tuning technique on their rifle and see if his findings make that drastic difference in competition. Indoors would be the best test though there still are variables but not like it would outdoors and we just might see more 250's with 25x's

Later

Bob Kingsbury
11-05-2009, 02:00 PM
To think that people are winning with untuned rifles is in my way of
thinking a contradiction. Sitting on the line with a tuned rifle is by no means a guarentee, but in the long run, tuned rifles will win more often in the hands
of those capable. That they are not tuned in your way of thinking does not
mean they are not tuned. They must be on some plane

Benchrester
11-05-2009, 03:01 PM
Why did you come on this forum ??? Just to blow smoke outta your hind parts ??? Your grasp of the English language is too good to be a former Rusky


You need to do more research. Education is where one generally learns to write a language. My grasp of certain Chinese dialects is equally as good, but that does not make me Chinese.

langenc
11-05-2009, 03:21 PM
To each his own. I dont believe tuners are legislated, yet. (Keep Pelosi away next week.)

If the gentleman dont want to buy/use one-fine.

404tbang
11-05-2009, 03:36 PM
Why did you come on this forum ??? Just to blow smoke outta your hind parts ??? Your grasp of the English language is too good to be a former Rusky

It is not uncommon for Europeans to be fluent in 5 or 6 languages.

What drives me batty is my inability to understand the accent of someone in India trying to talk me through a computer problem!:eek:

Even more annoying is the realization that, technically speaking, they have a better use of English than I do! :eek: Grammer and all that stuff I should have paid more attention to in school.

I'm just trying to picture the look on their face as they explain "the Kentucky accent" to their co-workers!:D

Take care,
Greg

Bob Kingsbury
11-05-2009, 05:02 PM
Why not give these guys a wide berth. They will either add to their
credibility or get burried in it

Bill Wynne
11-05-2009, 05:33 PM
Call it science or call it superstition or something in between, I really don't care, but my gun shoots better with my tuner on it and set.

So there.

Concho Bill

Big Al
11-05-2009, 05:34 PM
It is not uncommon for Europeans to be fluent in 5 or 6 languages.

What drives me batty is my inability to understand the accent of someone in India trying to talk me through a computer problem!:eek:

Even more annoying is the realization that, technically speaking, they have a better use of English than I do! :eek: Grammer and all that stuff I should have paid more attention to in school.

I'm just trying to picture the look on their face as they explain "the Kentucky accent" to their co-workers!:D

Take care,
Greg


I keep thinking the next time I have a puter problem, I'm going to call that Bobby Gindel fellow, I can understand him on the TV.

tim
11-05-2009, 08:47 PM
after testing and studying all that was posted on this forum for the past 2 years,I figured anywhere from 60-70% of all benchrest rifles were not tuned properly. I now think that figure is low.

So you're assuming lots of the top shooters actually post here ?

tim
11-05-2009, 09:02 PM
You need to do more research. Education is where one generally learns to write a language. My grasp of certain Chinese dialects is equally as good, but that does not make me Chinese.

Kudo's my friend, not only a command of a different language but a fair grasp of the art of the "snappy retort". Keep up the good work.