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TXPPC65
10-01-2009, 12:42 PM
I am thinking of either buying or building a rifle to shoot a sort of mini f-class using 22 LR at 200 yards. I have read about mini-palma matches shot at 100 and 200 yards using 22 LR so why not mini f-class if nothing but for practice.

If I just buy a rifle, what are the thoughts of just using a anshutz BR-50 (model 54 action in a bench stock)?

If I were to build a rifle, what actions would you suggest as being the best.

thanks

Dan
10-01-2009, 01:07 PM
At least around here in central Illinois that's not a new idea.

Both clubs I belong to have had 200 yard rimfre matches. They are either benchrest or silhouette, and anything that works for benchrest at 50 yards will work at 200. Ammunition is equally if not more critical, but most of all an ability to read the wind and practice good, consistant technique. I have noticed some folks just starting have struggled with some scopes not having enough elevation. Many scopes have enough, but some require either shimming or bases with elevation built in. A good place to start in this regard is to use Burris rings that have the posalign plastic inserts. These can be purchased in positive and negative alignment values to gain extra elevation or windage.

Good luck, and it is, at least to me, more fun than centerfire.

TXPPC65
10-01-2009, 01:26 PM
I think it would be fun in f-class format and at 200 yards,,, it should be great practice for 1000 yard f-class (reading and doping for wind).

I have a 1000 yard range 30 minutes away, but practice time is restricted and requires someone to pull targets so this would allow high volume practice on any day I want without adding another cartridge to load.

looking at a ballistic computer,,, lapua midas m drops 39.89 inches at 200 yards so I would have to work on the scope base to be close to optical center at 100 yards since I will need about 16 moa to adjust to 200 yards.

At 200 yards, a 10 mph crosswind requires 7.61 moa adj so it does appear to be a valid comparison to 1000 yard rifles

TXPPC65
10-01-2009, 03:32 PM
The 17 HMR interestingly enough (hornady vmax), has 7.33 moa of wind drift at 200 yards with a 10 mph crosswind compared to 7.61 with the Lapua Midas M ammo. The 17 HMR does shoot flatter with only 8.49 inches of drop from 0.

The 22 WMR (PMC 40 SP round) has 6.75 inches of wind drift with a 10 mph crosswind and is dropping 13.50 from muzzle.

Actually, my ballistic computer generates the ammo with the least wind drift (new feature I found) and it is the aquila 22 LR 40 match which has 5.45 inches of wind drift at 200 yards with a 10 mph while dropping 35.75 inches from muzzle.

On the surface, if I were creating a new shooting class, I don't see why a competitor could not use 22 LR, 22 WMR or 17 HMR although the shear selection of 22 LR ammo may make that the clear winner given the options to tune the ammo to the rifle. Also, remember, this would be a score competition so cutting a larger hole does help.

So Mini F-Class would be open to all rimfire small bore cartridges (17 and 22).

If a 1000 yard f-class target where reduced for use at 200 yards,,, you be looking at a 1 inch x-ring and a 2 inch 10 ring. Given that there has been chatter about the need to reduce the 1000 yard target's x-ring and that the power of the scopes at 200 yards do have a clear advantage... might be better in a competition to use a .25 moa x-ring.

I was actually thinking of making targets with a 1 cm x-ring, 2 cm 10 ring, ... etc which would give a total scoring target 7 cm in diameter. That way, 25 targets could be placed on a target sheet and one shot would be taken at each of 25 scoring targets so this can be done at ranges without target pits. I think 5 sighters would be enough for people.

Back to my original question, I do have Scoville building me a new BR stock,,, maybe better just to use a Hall rimfire action so my new stock has a purpose... I was going to make it a 30 BR gun,, but I can just add a 30 BR barrel for my f-open rig.

Tbkahuna
10-18-2009, 07:47 PM
I wanted to try some more target ideas on doing a mini F-class. I was trying to come up with easily available targets to get started. I considered the x and 10-ring size when scaled down, not wanting it to be too difficult at shorter ranges with a scope, or too hard since the wind really moves around the low velocity 22 LR.

I thought of doing the various scaled down versions of the F-class. 50 yards is the rimfire version of 300 yards, 100 is 600, and 200 yards shooting rimfire would then be the equivalent of 1000 yard F-class.

The first idea was to try shooting smallbore targets at twice the intended range since a scope would be used. Since it would be shot prone off a bipod, it wouldn't be too easy.

I found some Hoppe's 50 yard small bore rifle targets that looked about right for shooting a 22 prone with a scope at 100 yards. Here are the approximate measurements:
.4" x ring
.9" 10 ring
1.9" 9 ring
2.9" 8 ring
3.9" 7 ring - edge of black bull

I fired 10 shots at each of 5 targets. The wind was tricky, especially for here in Houston. I shot them with a Savage Mk II with Wolf Match ammo and a 12x scope off a bipod. I shot a best target of 93-1x, with also 92-4x, 90-1x, 89-1x, and 88-0x for a 452-7X. With any amount of wind this seems like a really resonable target. I used a few sighters then adjusted by holding off as I shot as I could see the holes in the target. I had wind blowing the 22 almost 4" left to about 2 1/2" right as I shot those targets.

If it was dead calm, the target would produce considerably higher scores. However, this is to be shot off a bipod, not a bench with bags is what I was thinking.

Rob in Houston

Bill Wynne
10-18-2009, 08:12 PM
On the surface, if I were creating a new shooting class, I don't see why a competitor could not use 22 LR, 22 WMR or 17 HMR although the shear selection of 22 LR ammo may make that the clear winner given the options to tune the ammo to the rifle. Also, remember, this would be a score competition so cutting a larger hole does help.

So Mini F-Class would be open to all rimfire small bore cartridges (17 and 22).

Now hold up a minute there. I have no doubt that due to wind conditions the 22 LR would be no match at 200 yards for the faster rimfire cartridges. Either the 22 WMR or the 17 HMR will be the cartridge of choice, not both. What if we tossed in the 222 Remington? See what I mean?

My point is that we should stay with the 22 LR if we really intend to use a level playing field.

Some form of this does seem like a workable idea.

Concho Bill

Tbkahuna
10-18-2009, 08:35 PM
I also tried just using IBS rimfire and hunter score targets shot at their intended ranges of 50, 100 and 200 yards, but off a bipod. The ranges were a bit muddy over the weekend, so I only shot 50 and 100 yards. I shot the 100 yard and 200 yard IBS both at only 100 yards.

Because the X on those targets are only a 1/16" and 1/8" dots, the x counts would be low. Maybe that is a good thing.

I had a much better time shooting the 200 yard target at 100 yards than I did the smaller 100 yard IBS score target at 100 yards. Not because the bigger scoring rings, but it I think it was because I had a better aiming point with the thicker lines on the 200 yard target.

I liked the 50 and 100 yard small bore targets for the 100 and 200 yard F-Class ides myself.

The 100 yard small bore target I intended to shoot at 200 yards has a
1" X ring
2" 10 ring
4" 9 ring
6" 8 ring and
8" 7 ring (edge of black)

The wind this weekend would have produced about 12" to 14" of drift at 200 yards, so the target wouldn't seem too easy if there was much wind at all.

By shooting the 50 and 100 yard small bore targets at twice the intended range, but with a scope off a bipod, the whole mini F-class experience would be a lot of fun and a good challenge.

Rob in Houston

TXPPC65
10-18-2009, 09:03 PM
Ideally, a mini f-class sport would be better to keep as a 22LR only venture.

Another thing to look at would be for 100 yards using subsonic only ammo. Ammo like the Aguila 60 gr sniper subsonic has 5 moa of wind drift at 100 in a 10 mph crosswind so definitely replicates a 308 at 1000 yards. You can still jump to normal match ammo for 200 yard shoots.

Another item that came to mind is using the proper scope. Lets say for discussion that you use a 45X Leupold Competition Scope on your 1000 yard open class rifle. Somehow using a 45x scope at 100 yard does not replicate the 1000 yard experience so maybe a scope maximum power rule would be beneficial. A 6X scope at 100 yards would be like a 60x scope at 1000 yards. Thoughts?

Danny Creasy
10-18-2009, 09:52 PM
We only have 100 yards max at our local range and I decided to go with silhouettes instead of paper targets to better simulate field conditions. We shoot at the standard rimfire rifle chicken silhouettes that are normally shot offhanded at 40 yards in official rimfire silhouette competition. Here are the rules:

The Raptor Match is fired on the highpower rifle range at 100 yards with a .22 rifle. The shooter moves from standing to prone or sitting with his/her bipodded rifle to engage five little chickens at 100 yards with 10 rounds in one minute - three strings - your score is the number of chickens standing out of all fifteen birds engaged - low score wins - tie breaker's anticipated - tie breaker will be a single string with only five rounds to be repeated as necessary - anything goes for the rifle as long as it is chambered for the .22 long rifle round and the rifle less magazine with bi-pod attached weighs no more than 10.5 lbs - repeat: the combined weight of the rifle, scope, and bipod with the box magazine detached can't exceed ten and a half pounds - the weight of the magazine of a tube repeater will have to be included for obvious reasons.

Due to this being an experimental fun match, I don't want people to have to go buy a bi-pod for this event. So, the Raptor participant will have the option of using a sling, sand bag, bull bag, etc or a bi-pod. But, keep in mind the shooter will have to start standing with the rifle and any support in hand, then at the command, assume position (sitting or prone) and shoot (all under the clock). To be fair the weight of the bi-pod, bag, and/or sling will not be included in the 10.5 lb weigh-in. Also, no rear support bags of any type will be allowed.

Pics:
http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/273/273402/pages/1029652/SizedCompositeRaptorMay30.jpg

With only a minute, the wind can play havoc with the shooter. Must adjust on the fly. We used flags at first. But, decided to drop them and go with the blowing grass, swaying trees, and wind on the cheek as windage gauges.

Here is a typical match report (other than the fact that it is one of the few that I won ;)):

Match report: What a great morning of shooting as nine shooters picked off little chickens at 100 yards. We had to have three tie breakers and two of those tie breaker shoot outs had to run twice! We also finally broke into the Grand Master Class with not one but two shooters.

Thanks so much to David King for setting up the "pipe organ" stands well in advance of the match. And, a special big thank you to Anedra Gilmore for keeping up with our scores and firing order.

August 08 Match Scores:

Place, Name,1st string score,2nd,3rd,overall score,TB results,Rifle,Scope,Ammo

Novice Class (between 13 and 15 silhouettes left standing)
None

Rifleman Class (10 to 12)
None

Marksman Class (7 to 9)

1st Richard Strickland 2,4,1,7,two tie breakers 3 & 1 - Biathlon Basic,Swift 6-24X50,Wolf MT
2nd David King 4,1,2,7,two tie breakers 3 & 2 - Weatherby Mk XXII,Leupold 3-9,Fed Auto Match
3rd Bart Harkins 4,1,4,9,no tie breaker - CZ 452 American,Leupold 6-18, SK Match

Expert Class (4 to 6)

1st Tony Gilmore 2,0,2,4,no tie breaker,Savage Mk II BV,Tasco World Class 6-24X44,Fiocchi SM 320
2nd Peary Willard 3,2,1,6,no tie breaker,Thompson Center Classic,Tasco WC 3-12X40,Fed Champion

Master Class (1 to 3)

1st Paul Enlow 0,1,0,1,two tie breakers 2 & 1 - Ruger 10/22 Choat Dragunov,Simmons,CCI Mini Mag
2nd 0,1,0,1,two tie breakers 2 & 2 - Remington 597,Barska 6-24,Aguila Std Vel

Grand Master Class (0)

1st Danny Creasy 0,0,0,0,one tie breaker 1, CZ 452 American,Swift 6-18X44, SK Rifle Match
2nd James Day 0,0,0,0,one tie breaker 4, CZ 452 Special/Trainer,Barska 6.5-20,Federal Champion

The winning Raptor Rifle lurks in the ground cover after the match:
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f169/sheffieldshootr/DSC03108.jpg

crb
10-19-2009, 07:24 AM
For the last few months I have been shooting in a long range silhouette match. The targets are 3/8's scale with the chickens at 75 meters, pigs at 112, turkeys at 144 and rams at 188. Tie breakers are tiny 1/5 scale silhouettes at the end of the ram line: one turkey, two pigs and three chickens. I think 4 of the tie breakers is the best score so far. We still end up with the occasional shoot off.

There are several classes including a '17' class which also allows the 22 mag.

Surprisingly, the only semiauto I have seen compete is my AR15 custom 22 mag conversion. I expected the 10/22 guys to be out in force :confused:

Ammo wise, in the 22lr classes the better 22lr match stuff has an advantage mainly due to less chance of a low or high velocity round costing you a ram. A miss on one of the 3 closer targets is usually a missed condition or complacency. The 17HMR definitely has an advantage due to trajectory. The HM2 requires careful shot placement to take down the rams. A good 22 lr match rifle with good ammo can shoot the same score as a 17HMR factory HB sporter.