Good "go to" for accurate 223 Rem loads?

[PaperSniper_]

I've got a Cooper model 21 in 223 Remington coming today. I'm ready to do some load development. I know there are thousands of good 223 Rem loads available, but I'm wondering if anyone knows of a link or forum where they describe in detail the particulars of loads? For instance, there is a huge difference between great loads for a 9 versus a 14 twist.

Here's what I THINK my new rifle has (seller did know know all for sure):
-Cooper model 21 action/barrel
-24 inch barrel
-1 in 14 twist

I'm anticipating using the lighter bullets with this rifle. The longer barrel means nothing to me as I only will mainly this rifle at 100 yards......very infrequently at 200 yards. I only plan to kill paper, so terminal ballistics are NA for me. I like Sierra and Hornady's "match" bullets, but I will probably try some Bergers also, at least until I see how accurate I can go with the "inexpensive" bullets. For powder I generally use Varget, Benchmark, H322, and Vit. 133 so will plan to use those to start.......well, probably only H322 and Vit. 133 as I'm about out of everything else! I think I also have some W748(?) on the reloading bench.......

Thanks for any suggestions guys.

[beemanbeme]

Lapua match brass
25.5gr H335
Rem 7 1/2 SR BR primers
Rem 52gr BR bullets (use 52 or 53gr Sierra MKs)

[drover]

In my Cooper 21 I use 26.3 grs or VV-133, 40 gr Nosler ballistic tips, Win primers (although any diference in primer brand seems to have a neligable influence on group size in my rifle). I seat to just touch the lands, this load gives me consistent on-half inch or less groups for 5 shots at 100 yds.

I have also had good success with H4895 at the uppper end of load recommendations. I have played with H335 quite a bit because I like the way it meters but I have never had the consistency from it that I get from the VV-133 and H4895.

The above cited VV-133 load has become my "go-to" load for 223's, it has performed well in every 223 I have tried it in.

Good shooting - enjoy a great rifle.

drover

[VarmintGuy]

Paper_Sniper: The load I am about to relay to you has been exceptionally accurate in several 223 Remington Varmint type Rifles I own.

223 Remington: 52 grain Berger MEF bullets, LaPua brass, Federal 205 M (match) primers and H 335 powder.

Best of luck with the Cooper Rifle.

By the way "Mr." Cooper is still on my "black list" for his blatant support of hussein obama during last falls election!
Imagine my glee when I found out that the Cooper Company would have "representatives" at the Ennis, Montana 15th annual "Hunters Rendevous" last August 22nd & 23rd!
Well "Mr." Cooper was NO WHERE TO BE SEEN!
In fact the "factory rep" there was a somewhat naive lady!
I spoke with her but did not let her know how incensed I was at Mr. Coopers stance supporting hussein obama!

Again best of luck with the "used" Cooper.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

[drover]

VG - There is no reason that Dan Cooper should have or would be there representing Cooper, he is no longer the owner of the company. It sold around the first of the year.

I am curious as in what sense the young lady representing Cooper rifles seemed naive. The reason I ask this is that I am pretty sure I know who was there representing them and if you are referring to her as being naive in regards to the rifles I believe you may be badly mistaken, I am quite sure that she knows more about them than you do.

drover

[david dumas]

Paper,
My 223 go to accuracy load
Lapua Brass
Vitvh N133, 24.8-25.0 grs
Rem(or) Fed 205 GM Primer
52 gr Fowler(Scheider Accuracy) Bullet seated to jump .030-.065

if you don't want to spring for Lapua Brass, R-P, FC, LC or Win neck skimmed to uniform necks will work too, H335 powder ain't bad either, I've got a Savage LRPV & a Tikka T-3. both shoot about anything 50-55 gr. the Tikka does a good job on whitetails with Sierra 55 gr GameKing Spitzer #1365,

the wind is my friend,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

DD

[DaRealViper]

Federal Brass
23.7Gr H4895
CCI 400 Primers
55gr Hornady Spire Point or Vmax
2.255" OAL

[caroby]

Your lucky........... The 223 is not too finicky...
Still ya gotta do some leg work for YOUR gun...

Will say this, if you have no way of reading the wind.... Count on inconsistent groups... Fact.

52gr Sierra / Berger 52...... H335, H322, 4895... Ramshot Exterminator, VV 133... All very capable in wide temp/humidity ranges.

cale

[VarmintGuy]

Drover: It was not my intent to "insult" your lady friend by referring to her as naive.
But your comment about her Rifle knowledge in this case is unfounded. She IS naive and not well versed in the products she had in front of her!
I watched her interact and try to answer questions from several "customers" before and after I talked with her - my impression - just about anyone could have "represented" those firearms in a more efficient and professional manner.
To me its not worth your arguing over - accept my assessment of her or don't - I could care less. But if you think the woman there had more knowledge of Rifles than I do then you are way out in left field - no, make that way out in outer space!
That is good news though, that the hussein obama supporter "Mr" Cooper is no longer affiliated with Cooper Arms though!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

[30378]

Best I remember our board leader Wilbur does not want us posting specific load data but I'll say 52 grain Sierras and a stiff dose of Benchmark works really well in mine. VV-133 is another great choice. :D

[keithcandler]

It will shock you at how Accurate the Sierra 50g lead tip and Blitz are, not blitz kings.

Also, the Nosler Ballistic tips are nothing to sneeze at either in accuracy when you are wanting bug hole groups.

I Shot a lot of high volume p. dogs. You will get longer barrel life from ball powder vs some of the stick powders, h4895 is very easy on barrels due to the very low pressures that it operates at.

I started using N 133 which is unreal accurate, I consider it a barrel eater compared to H335 and Win 748.

If your rifle will not shoot H335 and Win 748 with the 50-55g bullets of of your choice, you have a bad barrel.

23.5g of H322 with the 50's is also unreal accurate, does not eat barrels like n133.

I shoot 27.5g of Win 748 with the Nosler 50g Ballistic tip and 50g Sierra Blitz into very tiny groups that eat up the moth ball on a Br target. My rifle also likes H335 just as well, but I have that keg dedicated for another rifle.

Lapua and IMI brass is worth the money, never look back for punching paper.

I post my very safe loads because saying that I use Xyz powder with gumba bullet is the = of saying that I get better accuracy by driving a Ford to the rifle range.

[expiper]

44 kliks on a Culver powder maeasur...(aprox. 25gr) of half 4198 and half 322with any good 50-52 gr. bullet .....I have used it in bolt guns ...rattle guns...TC pistols ..you name it...it works ....Roger

[PaperSniper_]

Lapua match brass
25.5gr H335
Rem 7 1/2 SR BR primers
Rem 52gr BR bullets (use 52 or 53gr Sierra MKs)

Thanks. I've filed this one away with the others that were kindly posted. I've not used H335 lately, but I might have a half can around here somewhere. I was recently able to find 223 Rem Sierra MKs at Midway in stock and for a great price so I ordered 700......probably should have done more! I also use this bullet in my 22 BR.

Thanks again.

[PaperSniper_]

In my Cooper 21 I use 26.3 grs or VV-133, 40 gr Nosler ballistic tips............

The above cited VV-133 load has become my "go-to" load for 223's, it has performed well in every 223 I have tried it in.

Good shooting - enjoy a great rifle.

drover

Thanks. Good to hear from a fellow Cooper owner. I have not used such light bullets in the past, but I plan to get some to try with this 14 twist rifle.

[PaperSniper_]

Paper,
My 223 go to accuracy load
Lapua Brass
Vitvh N133, 24.8-25.0 grs
Rem(or) Fed 205 GM Primer
52 gr Fowler(Scheider Accuracy) Bullet seated to jump .030-.065


DD

Thanks, David. I will give that a try. I did decide to go with non-Lapua brass, although I use it with my 6 and 22 BR custom rifles. I had really good luck with it, but then they had Rem 223 brass on sale locally so bought that - it's just the Scot in me I suppose.

Glad to get more loads for Vitvh N133 as I used that with a recently sold 6ppc and I still have about 8 lbs of that. It was a good powder for the 6ppc and meters ok, etc.

I will have to find some Fowler bullets. I have used their 6mm ones along with Euber's in the 6ppc and they worked very well.

[PaperSniper_]

Your lucky........... The 223 is not too finicky...
Still ya gotta do some leg work for YOUR gun...

Will say this, if you have no way of reading the wind.... Count on inconsistent groups... Fact.

52gr Sierra / Berger 52...... H335, H322, 4895... Ramshot Exterminator, VV 133... All very capable in wide temp/humidity ranges.

cale

Oh you bet! I have a few other 223 rifles and have been reloading for them for many years! In particular I have this Savage 12 BVSS, but it's got a much faster twist, and a Howa with about a 10 ro 12 twist, I can't remember. Yep, wind is an issue with these light guys. But I shot at 100 yards 99% of the time and use use "Police - Do Not Cross" yellow tape "flags" which helps a bit!

Assuming folks are addressing my 14 twist in this rifle, the 52-53 bullets seem to be in most recommendations, which sounds good to me. I was out of them until last night - ordered 700 from Midway. They finally got something in stock! I have not used 4895 and need to keep an eye out for that one.

[PaperSniper_]

Best I remember our board leader Wilbur does not want us posting specific load data but I'll say 52 grain Sierras and a stiff dose of Benchmark works really well in mine. VV-133 is another great choice. :D

Really? We're not supposed to post load data?:confused: Since this forum is used probably 99% for those who reload that sounds odd!

I found that my 22 BR likes Benchmark, as does my Ruger Mini-14. I have not used it in my other bolt 223's, but I like the way it meters. Oddly enough the 22 BR likes a fairly stout charge of Benchmark also.

I am surprised Varmint powder isn't showing up in recommendations here. I have used a lot of that over the years, but I am out now and can't find it anyway. It's on my "wish list" so hopefully in a few months I can find some!

[PaperSniper_]

It will shock you at how Accurate the Sierra 50g lead tip and Blitz are......
Also, the Nosler Ballistic tips are nothing to sneeze at either........

longer barrel life from ball powder vs some of the stick powders........I started using N 133 which is unreal accurate, I consider it a barrel eater compared to H335 and Win 748.

23.5g of H322 with the 50's is also unreal accurate, does not eat barrels like n133.

I shoot 27.5g of Win 748 with the Nosler 50g Ballistic tip and 50g Sierra Blitz into very tiny groups that eat up the moth ball on a Br target........

saying that I get better accuracy by driving a Ford to the rifle range.

Roger than on the Ford! My truck gets 19 mpg not towing, but pulling my "house" it gets only 11 mpg! Pretty much "oh really..." information, eh? :D

I have not used lead-tipped bullets except for a few hundred 223 Rem loads for my Ruger Mini-14, but then it's not designed for punching paper. In general I avoid those as I do not hunt, and it's always seemed that lead tip would deform a little an hurt accuracy.

Very good info on the powder recommendations. Eating up my barrel is a consideration of course. I try to keep my loads fairly tame, and all but my 22BR shoot loads around the 80% max better than hot ones. I don't know why, but that's how they work! That 22 BR likes a very stiff load of Benchmark or H322.

Thanks for the W748 load, I have some of that I need to try it in the Cooper. It was mediocre in my Savage 12 BVSS. That rifle likes Varget a lot more.

[PaperSniper_]

44 kliks on a Culver powder maeasur...(aprox. 25gr) of half 4198 and half 322with any good 50-52 gr. bullet .....I have used it in bolt guns ...rattle guns...TC pistols ..you name it...it works ....Roger

I have always been warned not to mix powders so I probably won't try that one, but it's good to know it works consistently for you. I have always lusted for a Culver meter, but I'm getting by with my two old Redding meters. :cool:

[Will Durant]

I get excellant results with 25.5 grains of VV N133,Sierra 52,Rem brass and the Russian small rifle primer.Will

[drover]

VG,

I have been away to a match and have just returned home, and to computer access, I just finished reading your reply to my question.

Yikes!!! Am I ever surprised to find out that you have elevated the young lady who represented Cooper at the open house from someone that "that I am pretty sure I know" to the status of "your lady friend". I hope her husband doesn't find out about this - heck! until I read your reply I didn't even know that she was a lady friend.

Egads!!! You may want to read my post again - if you notice the subject of the paragraph is Cooper rifles - my reply to you was -

"I am curious as in what sense the young lady representing Cooper rifles seemed naive. The reason I ask this is that I am pretty sure I know who was there representing them and if you are referring to her as being naive in regards to the rifles I believe you may be badly mistaken. I am quite sure that she knows more about them than you do."

It seems quite clear that I am referring to her knowing more about Cooper rifles than you do. You have posted numerous times that you have never owned a Cooper, nor do you intend to so therefore your exposure to them is at best somewhat limited, wheras she works at the Cooper facility, she is exposed to them every day and Cooper management has enough confidence in her knowledge to have her represent them.

Gadzooks!!! Can't you reply to a post without an attempt to denigrate the person that you reply to??? Was it really necessary to put this into the post - "But if you think the woman there had more knowledge of Rifles than I do then you are way out in left field - no, make that way out in outer space!", are you that insecure??

Sheesh!!! Keep spitting into the wind VG.

drover

[VarmintGuy]

Drover: I see that as of today (9-4-09) you "EDITED" your original outrageous post (of 9-27-09) to completely CHANGE its original intent and content!
You poor pathetic lout!
That is the same as outright lying IS IT NOT?
I just checked my Rifle inventory and I currently own 149 Rifles!
I just returned from a Gunshow where I am dealing on another expensive addition to my gun vaults!
I hope to add that arm to my arsenal by tomorrow or Sunday.
I have been a student of Rifles for more that 50 years!
I have forgotten MORE about Rifles than your lady friend ever knew - of that I am quite certain!
Your original post was baseless blather BEFORE, and NOW, after you edited it!
Shame on you drover!
Distorting your original post to try to make yourself look credible or believeable is naive and immature - just like your original post (BEFORE your edit of today 9-04-09!) was naive and immature!
"I" am curious as to why you would do something so underhanded in a public forum?
You "drover" have "denigrated" YOURSELF - all by yourself, with your deceitful edit of your original post and your subsequent post.
No need for me to add anything to that type indiscretion on your part!
Sheesh!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

[drover]

VerboseGuy -
Now let me see - The post was edited to correct a spelling error and somehow you have managed to twist that to imply that I am a liar. If you quit running off your mouth and read the post you will see that nothing was changed. If you think something was changed then just exactly what was it? Please point out what in my post was distorted, and exactly what in the post is naive and immature.
And you refer to me as a “poor pathetic lout” - perhaps you need to take a look in the mirror to see the real pathetic lout.

Your owning 149 rifles (Yeah! - Right!) Says nothing about how much you know about rifles, and Cooper rifles in particular, only that you own them, although I am sure a psychiatrist could have a field day with your fixation.
Also, because you have "been a student of rifles for more than 50 years" does not give you any special knowledge or credence, it is a statement - nothing more, nothing less.

Does your saying - "I have forgotten MORE about Rifles than your lady friend ever knew - of that I am quite certain!" supposed to validate your statement of knowledge? If so on what basis???
Although I truly believe the portion of your statement that you have forgotten a lot about rifles.

In your original post it is quite clear that you have an agenda with Cooper since you hoped to confront Dan Cooper. I truly wish that you could have happened; I have seen him put intelligent, articulate persons in their place in a minute or two. In your case it would have taken him less than 15 seconds - my only regret would be in not being there to witness it.
It is also clear that you went there in a confrontational mood, and in such a state of mind it is virtually impossible not to be biased to find fault with anything that was said, or to have a favorable “impression”.
Your opinion or impression is just that - yours. And just because it is yours does not make it correct or valid regardless of how much you rant, rave, and verbally bully.

Since you have insinuated that I am a liar I will come right out and say that the only teller of tall takes here is you. Your tall tales here, and on other forums are well known and often joked and laughed about, as are your tactics of challenging and abasing.

We both know that your reply was not to answer my question about the representative, it was only answered to give you an excuse for you to launch another personal attack against me or you would have answered my question with having added “then you are way out in left field - no, make that way out in outer space!.”
I am often reluctant to replying to one of your posts knowing that if the opinion differs from yours you become incapable of carrying on a civil discourse an invariably you will begin personal attacks, assault verbally and in general act like a schoolyard bully. But, I never was scared of bullies!

Keep spitting into the wind VG.

drover

P.S. - If you wish to continue this verbal battling then let's take it to the Private Messages and quit cluttering up the forum.

[ForneyRider]

Friday, I did a .488in with 52gr Sierra and AA 2230 and a .6 with 75gr Hornady BTHP and AA2230. These are 5shot groups at 100 yards on nice, but hot and humid day in my stock DPMS Panther Bull 20 with 1:9 barrel from a rest.

I use R-P brass that has been cut to length, necks cleaned up, primer pocket bottomed, flashhole deburred, fl-sized with Redding bushing die, and bullet set with Redding comp die.

Fed 205 primer. Now moving to Rem 7.5. It's been what I can find. Had no issues with the 205's.

AA2230 has been great in bullets from 36gr to 75gr for .223. My SD is very low. I have been cautioned to test each lot. So buy a 1lb and if it is good, then buy 2 8lbers. :)

[PaperSniper_]

Thanks for the suggested load. I am the OP and appreciate getting the information for which I asked instead of the political stuff that's too prevalent in this thread I started. :(

I didn't realize asking for a good load on a shooting forum would be so politically sensitive...............:(

When you mention " ..I use R-P brass that has been cut to length....." are you trimming to 1.750? I recently bought (factory) 200 RP cases, and their length varied from about 1.749 to 1.756 inch or so. I did not bother to trim them for load development, but I did segregate the cases into two groups, and have only used the shorter cases (probably 90% 1.750-1.753 inch). I have not yet shot those loads, but I wonder what trim length segregation process you use. If I were more industrious I'd have trimmed all to 1.750, but I got lazy! <g>

Thanks for the tips on 2230. I have used it a little before, mainly with 22-250 loads. I don't have a lot of experience with it.

Thanks for the suggestions, although I'll not be shooting any 75 grainers out of this rifle with it's 14 twist!:cool:

[S. Newman]

Try 26.5 -27.0 grains of Win. 748, Fed 205GM primer, prepped brass of your choice and BR quality match bullets 50-52 grains. This combo always seems to work in slower twist barrels. Also, depending on the particular lot, 50 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips or Hornady V Max can sometimes give amazing results, but aren't as consistent box to box as the BR quality bullets. Good shooting!

[keithcandler]

I have shot many thousands of p. dogs with 27.5g of 748 with a 50g Sierra Blitz or 50g Ballistic tip in a 14 twist 223, tiny groups at 3475-3500 fps.

My partner had one barrel that liked 28.0g with a different lot# of powder.

We always used the thicker cupped 7 1/2 primers.

[PaperSniper_]

I have shot many thousands of p. dogs with 27.5g of 748 with a 50g Sierra Blitz or 50g Ballistic tip in a 14 twist 223, tiny groups at 3475-3500 fps.

My partner had one barrel that liked 28.0g with a different lot# of powder.

We always used the thicker cupped 7 1/2 primers.

Thanks, tiny groups sound good, although I a not a hunter and would ordinarily pass on those bullets. I'll keep my eye and pick up a box of the 50 gr Sierra's Blitz or BTs. I will also need to get some W748; I though I had about a half pound, but I must have used it up last year.....

I just got several boxes of Sierra #1410, their 52 gr BT MatchKings that I might try with W748 also.

Darn it, I have not even shot my Cooper 223 Remington yet! I'm currently doing load development on a custom 22BR and it's taking most of my spare time.....well, that and setting up a 22 LR for my grandson.:cool:

[Clark]

223 is SAMMI registered for 55,000 psi average peak pressure.
The max usable pressure is ~ 72,000 psi.

Hodgdon website: 223 Rem, H335, 25.3 GR. 55 GR. SPR SP, 2.200", 24"
barrel, 3203 fps, 49,300 CUP

The threshold of long brass life with that load is between 29 and 30 gr.
At 31 gr, one can see from the fired brass with the naked eye that it is an overload.

http://www.benchrest.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=8544&d=1253802260
Here is a pic of unfired, 28 gr, 29 gr, 30 gr, and 31 gr.

Contrast that with the 270 Win that is registered at 65,000 psi and has a practical limit of 65,000 psi for a handloader in a particular rifle.

Can you imagine what 19% extra H335 in a 270 would look like?

[Doug Kennedy]

It will shock you at how Accurate the Sierra 50g lead tip and Blitz are, not blitz kings.

Also, the Nosler Ballistic tips are nothing to sneeze at either in accuracy when you are wanting bug hole groups.

I Shot a lot of high volume p. dogs. You will get longer barrel life from ball powder vs some of the stick powders, h4895 is very easy on barrels due to the very low pressures that it operates at.

I started using N 133 which is unreal accurate, I consider it a barrel eater compared to H335 and Win 748.

If your rifle will not shoot H335 and Win 748 with the 50-55g bullets of of your choice, you have a bad barrel.

23.5g of H322 with the 50's is also unreal accurate, does not eat barrels like n133.

I shoot 27.5g of Win 748 with the Nosler 50g Ballistic tip and 50g Sierra Blitz into very tiny groups that eat up the moth ball on a Br target. My rifle also likes H335 just as well, but I have that keg dedicated for another rifle.

Lapua and IMI brass is worth the money, never look back for punching paper.

I post my very safe loads because saying that I use Xyz powder with gumba bullet is the = of saying that I get better accuracy by driving a Ford to the rifle range.

Good post Keith. I agree with everything there,except I refuse to drive a phord:D

[rxwayne]

I have been having good success shooting IBS factory class this year with my Cooper Model 21 Montana Varminter using 24.1 grains of H335 pushing a 52 grain Berger Match bullet. I only use Lapua brass for competition. I use Remington 71/2 small rifle benchrest primers.

I hope you have as much fun with your Cooper as I am having with mine.

[Fireball Fred]

first i would agree with 31gr looking like an overload.
also from the pics i would suggest getting your firing pin hole bushed on your bolt. those firing pin craters can be cured easily with that procedure. Fred

[rdsii64]

You stated that you believe you have a 14 twist barrel. Assuming you are correct, my suggestion would be 24.5 grains of VV N133 and the 40 grain bullet of your choice.

If my hunch is correct and you have a 12 twist barrel. My suggestion is 25 grains of VV N133 and the a 50 grain bullet of your choice.

Modern .223 caliber bolt guns are not really picky about what you feed them. Just pick a powder, just about any brand primer, top it with a bullet appropriate to your twist rate, and the gun will most likely shoot better than the shooter.

I personally prefer the Hornandy Vmax bullets. My Howa 1500 will put a whole box of Hornaday 40 grain vmax bullets into a 1.5 inch hole. I know an 1.5 inch hole is nothing to brag about on a bench rest forum, but remember I'm talking about 20 shots from a budget rifle with a factory barrel and the first 5 were less than half an inch.

My own custom load consists of 50 grain vmax bullets, Winchester Brass, Wolf .223 primers, and 25 grains of N133. OAL is 2.3. Cases are trimed to 1.7. I went to a heavier bullet because I shoot vermin and paper with the same gun and wanted to use one load.