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Louis Boyd
08-26-2009, 12:31 PM
The current 4473 has three entries which can be checked when purchasing a firearm.
They are "long gun", "handgun" and "other".
I've concuded that long gun is appropriate for most rifles and shotguns, handgun is for most common pistols, and that "other" is appropriate for bare receivers which are not assembled as a long gun or handgun at the time of purcase and certain other firearms without shoulder stocks but longer than 26 overall and 16 (or 18) inch barrels. in For the sale of a "handgun" or "other" the purchaser must be 21 and a resident of the state of the sale. At least thats what I've conculded (but not certain) from gunshop owners and from the ATF websites, but from there I'm confused.

I'm not an FFL holder. I recently purchased a DPMS LR-308 stripped lower and it was marked as "other" by the FFL on the 4473 at the time I purchase it. Now I'm trying to determine what my options for use of the receiver are.

Question 1. May the purchaser use an "other" frame to assemble a pistol using a buffer which is not suitable for use as a buttstock? Does barrel length or overall length (minimum or maximum) matter in that case? Would thhat be equivalent of what use to be the purchase of a "pistol marked" lower receiver from a manufacturer where the FFL would have recorded it as a handgun on the 4473.? I have several AR-15 pistols assembled that way in assorted calibers, purchased using the old 4473.

Question 2. May the purchaser use the frame to assemble a rifle with a 16" plus barrel and an overall length of 26" plus? I have no doubt that's ok, but for purpose of transfer later does that receiver become a "long gun" or remain an "other" as originally purchased?

Question 3. May the purcahser use the frame to assemble a smoothbore shotgun with a barrel of 18" us and a overall length of 26" plus? (that's not to say it's practical).

Question 4. Is the purchaser having assembled the frame in one of those forms free to change it to one of the other forms later? This in light of the Thompson Center Supreme court case where a TC Contender purchaed as a pistol may freely be changed to rifle form and back.

Question 5. If assembled into a pistol are there any other actions required by the owner, such as marking the frame (lower receiver) as "pistol" or "handgun" or "other"? Would such an assembly be subject to the " veritical handgrip" rule which applies to pistols? Are there any taxes to be paid for assembling it in pistol form?

I'd prefer something more than just speculation on the answers. What seems reasonable doesn't always apply to federal laws and rulings.

I'm hoping there's some information given to FFL holders shedding light on these questions. I didn't fiind anything from a web search of the ATF websights. There were documents listed however that were downloadable only by FFL holders.

I'm considering a letter to the ATF to ask these questions, but would prefer not to if they've already been clarified.

mike in co
08-26-2009, 01:03 PM
you got this way to complicated....
the recvr must be designated by the maker as a pistol or rifle.....logging it as an "other" is incorrect.
just cause the dealer you bought thru listed it as "other" does not allow you, the owner to change its original intent....rifle.

mike in co

skinnj1
08-27-2009, 02:36 PM
Mike- not to sound disagreeable but this is not true acording to the latest BATFE publication to ffl's on the issue (within the last year).
You have to mark other now on a 4473 for a bare AR reciever and it is Illegal for a FFL to sell it to someone under 21 because legally it can be made into a pistol.
You have to mark "other" on a 4473 for bare recievers/ actions along with AOW's, scilencers and other NFA items that are niether a long gun or a pistol

(ps. if look at the instructions to the dealer in the new multi page white 4473 it spells it out pretty clear)

Original poster-( Disclaimer **I am not a Lawyer, this is not Legal Advice**) some of your questions seem to get closer to constructive intent concerning the posession of a SBR or the making of a AOW (pistol with a forward verticle grip) DO NOT TRUST ANYONES internet advice get it straight from your lawyer (one who has a strong background in firearms law) or the ATF tech branch in writing, adressed to your name. Anything else risks to many unneccessary unplesantries.

Jim Borden
08-27-2009, 04:52 PM
Receivers can not be sold over the counter to non-residents of a state. If sold to an out of state person, they have to be sent to an ffl for transfer. This is a new interpretation in July 2008 and the 4473 were modified to reflect the change (actually according to the local atf office--not a change at all-just a clarification of what has been law since 1968).

In PA, when a receiver is sold over the counter (to a PA resident and US citizen) the handgun forms also have to filled filled out and sent to the State Police.

The implication is that the receiver can be used to build a handgun---but that is yet to be clarified.

mike in co
08-27-2009, 05:31 PM
i stand corrected.....entirely diff than in the past( you know i do a "few" ar's)

mike in co

Louis Boyd
08-28-2009, 10:10 PM
Below is the "sample" 4473 revised August 20008 from the ATF website which includes the instruutions. (8 pages).
http://www.atf.gov/press/2008press/100308f4473_pt1_aug2008-sample-rev.pdf

Jkob
08-31-2009, 08:03 AM
Here is my take on this as I had my "compliance check" recently.

No two ATFE agents or their supervisors can agree on the interpretation of a single rule or regulation.

I had a new Sako action, still in the white, sitting on the shelf waiting for a sale. When the agent noted the action in my books, it was listed as "action only", no caliber. He asked what it was, a rifle or shotgun and I replied I did not know. He asked what caliber it was, same answer. When I showed him it was new, never had a barrel or caliber, he simply stated "I've never heard of such a thing". I told him that was the way it came into country and I got the same "I've never heard..."

Go Figger.

mike in co
08-31-2009, 10:26 AM
this thing has me at a loss, but since it is bureorats i'm not suprised.

i thought the intent was to allow the someone to know what was purchased, a hand gun or a long gun. the current direction means no one knows, and there is no rule for the buyer to later report what he did. this causes a second issue in that now a rifle can be changed to a hand gun and the reverse is true. since the rcvr has never been listed as either rifle or hand gun, it can be changed as many times as the owner wants, and in a private sale it could continue.
this decision sounds like a non-gun persons decision....no brains behind it at all.
ohh wellll
mike in co

brian roberts
09-01-2009, 12:28 AM
of this is this: If you have an XP-100 pistol, and you make it into a rifle, you cannot ever change it back again.
Conversely, If you take a rifle and rebarrel it and make it, or have it made into a handgun, it cannot be made to a rifle again. True???:eek:

EssentialTremor
09-01-2009, 07:54 AM
of this is this: If you have an XP-100 pistol, and you make it into a rifle, you cannot ever change it back again.
Conversely, If you take a rifle and rebarrel it and make it, or have it made into a handgun, it cannot be made to a rifle again. True???:eek:

Except for an exception for TC contenders and their ilk, once an action is converted from a pistol to a rifle configuration, it is a rifle forever. A rifle cannot be converted into a pistol. Or more accurately, a rifle (even if it used to be a pistol) is forever subject to the restrictions in NFA34 and GCA68 regarding barrel length and overall length. In order to have a barrel shorter than 16" or an overall length shorter than, what is it, 26"? you'd have to register it as an SBR.

There was a lot of ruckus over this a few years ago when lots of folks were building AR pistols off of virgin receivers. There was no provision on the 4473 for transferring virgin receivers, and FFLs were instructed to list them as "rifles." Technically building a pistol off of one of them was an unregistered SBR. I doubt anyone ever got prosecuted for that, but you never know. The batf issues "edicts" instead of laws, and they change with the damn wind.

I cleared by conscience by ponying up the 200 buck and SBRing my pistol anyway.

mike in co
09-01-2009, 08:30 AM
Except for an exception for TC contenders and their ilk, once an action is converted from a pistol to a rifle configuration, it is a rifle forever. A rifle cannot be converted into a pistol. Or more accurately, a rifle (even if it used to be a pistol) is forever subject to the restrictions in NFA34 and GCA68 regarding barrel length and overall length. In order to have a barrel shorter than 16" or an overall length shorter than, what is it, 26"? you'd have to register it as an SBR.

There was a lot of ruckus over this a few years ago when lots of folks were building AR pistols off of virgin receivers. There was no provision on the 4473 for transferring virgin receivers, and FFLs were instructed to list them as "rifles." Technically building a pistol off of one of them was an unregistered SBR. I doubt anyone ever got prosecuted for that, but you never know. The batf issues "edicts" instead of laws, and they change with the damn wind.

I cleared by conscience by ponying up the 200 buck and SBRing my pistol anyway.

that may be the "rules" today, but an individual with an ar reciever( not a gunsmith/no ffl), probably has no idea of todays rules. and as i pointed out if the gun is never sold thru an ffl( face to face is legal all over the country tho not all states),there is no official record of it as either a rifle, nor a pistol, so it may continue its path of being either.

mike in co