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model14
07-26-2009, 08:58 AM
Five, five shot groups at 100 yards. Lots of wind, but didn't try doping. Every group had one flyer. Flyers were anywhere from 1/2" to 1-1/2" off the group. Don't believe wind did that at 100 yards. Discount the flyers and I was super consistent at .37, .37, .37, .37, .37! What the ....?

Rifle is Rem 700 .223 VLS (bedded and Rifle-basix trigger). Win brass (weight sorted, .0015 neck tension, not turned), 52 grn Nosler Custom HPBT, 27.0 Varget, seated at 0 jump. Trickle loaded.

I know this problem has been beat to death, but I have got to solve it somehow. I don't want to invest more money in a "better" setup until I can better understand and troubleshoot this kind of problem. If it was just poor grouping I could chalk it up to the stock barrel and action, but I think it is something else I am not doing. I have had good shooters watch my technique and they feel it is good.

B. Harvey
07-26-2009, 09:24 AM
Could very easily be the wind and if you aren't using flags, you will never figure it out.

Consistent performance comes from every single detail being the same, ALL the time. Even aftermarket barrels can do the same thing if it is a bad barrel.

1st thing I would do is to use a little faster powder. Varget will indeed make the bullet go down range, but is slow for the bullet your are shooting, which can lead to erratic results.

Hope this helps.

gacamp
07-26-2009, 09:49 AM
If your not "doping the wind" then to put it kindly you are wasting your time, components, barrel life, etc. etc.. If you truly are interested in wringing the most out of setup, get wind flags, learn how to read them then evaluate your rig and technique, otherwise gets used to the @#*& flyers.

model14
07-26-2009, 09:56 AM
I get the picture on learning to read the wind, but can a 15 mph cross wind really move a 52 grain bullet doing 3300 fps an inch in 100 yards?

Charles E
07-26-2009, 10:10 AM
I
can a 15 mph cross wind really move a 52 grain bullet doing 3300 fps an inch in 100 yards?

More like 1.35 inches.

macflyboy
07-26-2009, 10:10 AM
Yep!
Got to have flags > period. Sorry!

Gerry
07-26-2009, 10:46 AM
Doping is one of the problems and a big one'' the second is unturned necks
The object of turning neck's is to get the bullet started straight and jumping the bullet magnifies the problem.

caroby
07-26-2009, 11:19 AM
I get the picture on learning to read the wind, but can a 15 mph cross wind really move a 52 grain bullet doing 3300 fps an inch in 100 yards?

This is Benchrest Central, Model14...............To simply answer your question >>>Yes<<<, all the above answers to your question are dead on.

This, most >>>non-Benchrest<<< shooter's can't imagine... An inch push at 100 yds. ""No way""....!!! Oh yes way..!
Also, you really have no idea if your shoot'n in "15mph" wind... Here's what I mean.

Local weather guy say's..."5-15mph outta the South today folks"... The reality is 0-25 mph outta ALOT of directions, just that it's "primarily" coming from the South 5-15" ...

Your getting "most" of your shots in a pretty similar condition but getting killed in a let-up, pick-up and or angle switches with the "flyer"...

Even with flags it's TOUGH to consistently shoot tiny... This is a TOUGH thing to do...!
Without flags, consistency for tiny groups is next to impossible... Then mix in a mostly factory rifle and, well Greef for the budding 100/200 yard precision shooter... Absolute frustration!!! Trust us...!!!!!!:o

What to do.....

Make yourself a set of simple flags... A set of 3 - 4' re-bar OR 4' wooden dowel rod and a roll of bright orange seyrveyors tape (Home Depot or Lowes).
Attach to the top and length of 3' will do.

These will get you started in seeing "Nasty stuff" .. Pick-up bursts or sudden let-ups. Angles will be a bit tough to discern and in switchy angles the tape has a tendency to wrap around the pole.... But it's a cheap start to "seeing the wind"...

Even though I wouldn't ever trust what "feels" like a calm condition. Try to get out to your local range as early as is allowable. Try'n to shoot and test your gun and shooting technique in the most consistent and "lightest" wind.

Set out 3 @ 100yds 25, 50, 75 yds... Keep an eye on that ribbon. Shoot on what is consistent and be patient.

If your gun, your shooting equiptment and your technique is good, you should see consistent tight small groups. Now as the day wears on, the ribbon will get really active and possibly here is when you can see the big effects the wind is having on your shooting.

I know this problem has been beat to death, but I have got to solve it somehow. I don't want to invest more money in a "better" setup until I can better understand and troubleshoot this kind of problem.

Well actually just the opposite..... A purpouse built rifle for ACCURACY be it an outstanding varmint rifle or a >>>Benchrest rifle<<< will RAPIDLY lend to you learning how to shoot tiny...! More consistently!

IF... You can find a real Benchrest shooter near you, set down with him or her (very freindly people.. You'll see.) and pick their brain and shoot their equiptment.... I believe you'll be HOOKED...................!:)

Simple Model14...... Gotta have flags AND a consistently accurate rifle to satisfy your thirst for Precision/Accuracy.

You will start to see the light...Wind.
Have fun..!
cale

Charles E
07-26-2009, 12:33 PM
Doping is one of the problems and a big one'' the second is unturned necks
The object of turning neck's is to get the bullet started straight and jumping the bullet magnifies the problem."Unturned necks" by itself isn't a problem. Many factory chambers have a chamber-to-neck clearance of .010 or more. Thats with unturned necks. Turning the necks with such a chamber merely increases the clearance.

(2)"Started straight" assumes a chamber has the same center as the bore. Not a good assumption with a factory rifle.

(3)"Jumping the bullet magnifies the problem." Which problem? A number of barrel/bullet combinations shoot better with a jumped bullet. This would include *benchrest* barrel/bullet combinations, though not too often in point-blank benchrest.

* * *

I don't mean to jump on you too much, but with a shooter new to benchrest, shorthand comments are apt to be confusing; indeed, they can be flat wrong; esp. so when taken out of a benchrest context.

model14
07-26-2009, 03:06 PM
Gentleman, you have convinced me. Wind flags and learning to read them, it will be. Where I shoot the 100 yard range is heavily bermed. The predominent Westerly winds blow across the berms and create all sorts of confusion along the path of the bullet. I do try and shot right at 9AM when the range opens. The winds are usually light for about a 1/2 hour then they start up. Clearly, I need to use the flags to look for the same flag conditions for each shot (consistency), rather than to try and read exactly what the wind is doing (speed and direction). Thanks for the very useful information.

Boyd Allen
07-26-2009, 03:24 PM
After you have the flags, and have used them for a while, would you report back about your results and impressions?

Gunner223
07-26-2009, 03:48 PM
Maybe you should invest a few bucks in a Sierra exterior ballistics program. It will show you the effects of wind.

Don

jackie schmidt
07-26-2009, 05:07 PM
How many times have we all read articles in the big "glossy covered magazines", ("Shootin Ammo" or "Guns and Times"), where some shooting editor is testing the accuracy of either a Rifle, or various components, and not a wind flag in sight. The groups will even show evedence of missed conditions, and they are to ignorant to recognize that simple fact.

15 mph wind??? Yes, if you shoot in what we call a reversal, ( no way to tell without flags), you can easilly move a bullet 1 inch+.

Forget turning necks with a Factory Remington chamber. It is a waste of time. In fact, you are probably doing more harm by increasing the already generous clearance in the neck.

It looks like you have a decent shooting Rifle. Get some decent flags, and allow it to live up to it's true potential.........jackie