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View Full Version : 30BR vs 6ppc stiring the pot...



eww1350
07-14-2009, 10:28 AM
I have been pondering the Score shooting (VFS) and group shooting data...and it seems strange to me that the 30BR would dominate score shooting when the 6ppc holds a distinct edge in accuracy....here is how my small mind thinks..:rolleyes:...a HV 6ppc in avg. conditions in the hands of a compitent shooter will agg. @ 100 yds..180"-.220" a 30BR in the same theoretical match condtions will agg...240"-.330+"
Now take away the caliber difference and the 6ppc with its less recoil, torque
and less bag upset should be the dominant caliber in the score game..especially at 200 yds...:confused::rolleyes:
I have read the comments of several accomplished shooters stating that the 30BR just won't agg. good enough to be competitive with the 6ppc...so take away the caliber difference from the agg. and it would look like the 6ppc would be the runaway favorite...
Yes I know the score target has a 1/2" and 1" diameter ten ring...and best edge scoring is used...etc...etc..etc..
But you still have all the center to center advantage of the 6ppc and the better handling manners...one would surmise the 6ppc would have the advantage...I would if I were doing a data comparison decision...:)
If most group shooters are chasing the first bullet hole to acomplish a small group wouldn't that be the same as holding to hit the 10 ring...?

Your thoughts.?

Eddie in Texas

mwezell
07-14-2009, 10:44 AM
are, if you show up at a match with a gun that aggs .330+, you're in for a long day. --Mike

.25shooter
07-14-2009, 11:52 AM
Eww1350


I am not sure all your assumptions are correct.

First of all I dont think the agging capability difference between .30 and 6PPC is as large as you suggests. What it is I dont know but probably not .070-.100

Lets assume hypothetically that they are equally accurate. Then the .308 would have the advantage of .308-.243= 065 /2 =0.0325 ( the advantage of fatter bullet only works in one direction right ) So a .30 BR can shoot 0.0325larger aggregates than a 6PPC but still have an equal chance neglecting more recoil, difference in ballistic etc.

So is this the difference in accuracy of a 6PPC and .308 or is it less or more ?
No one knows yet. But in a hard core Benchrest competition a difference in aggregate of .0325 is quite a bit.

6PPC s have shot good scores and still do. But perhaps it is psycological advantage to se those large holes punch the paper and perhaps a "fad" or "trend" has something to do with the development of .30 BR dominance of the score shooting Alternatively accuracy difference of 6PPC versus .30BR is less than .0325.

Jerry Reisdorff
07-14-2009, 01:58 PM
6PPC - barrel short life (1500rnds) hard to keep in tune.

30BR - easy to load - easy keep in tune - great barrel life (6000rnds)

I have shot 22Xes with both of them - but I am not the good of a shot yet. I just like to go to the match pre loaded and not worry about things... I need to think about, and become friends with the wind.


JR :D

jackie schmidt
07-14-2009, 02:42 PM
As you know, I have been shooting my 30BR in a few yardages in Registered Group Matches.

Now, I am yet to win anything, but, at every yardage I have shot, I have beat 95 percent of the 6PPC Shooters. And, every time I shoot it, I learn a little more.

I am pretty well convinced that the 30 will shoot just as accurate as a 6mm, or anything else, for that matter. But, any experienced shooter will tell you that there is a difference in accuracy and agging capability.

First, I pay no attention to "scores" as in scoreshooting when trying to decide the future of my 30 cal endevours. If a shooter shoots a 250-25x, that means nothing to me as far as group goes, because you can still kiss the X on each side and the bullets still be .320 apart.

What I am doing is the right approach, (in my opinion). Sit down, and shoot groups, and give yourself an honest measurememt.

Remember when I shot the Unlimited at Seymour, 8 10-shot groups??. Every record shot, all 80 at 100, were 10's. and I still ended up with a .312 agg. I shot several groups, dead on the moth ball, that all would have scored 10 X's, but the group measured about .310.

I think I have improved the accuracy since that match. The 118 seems to shoot tighter. The groups I shot last week end tend to point this out. It has been a while since I was able to just sit down and shoot that well.

More shooters need to do what I am doing. Get a 30, and shoot it with the intention of winning Group Matches. You start out with the premis that in order to do this, you have got to get it shooting at a sub .200 level.

Sitting down and shooting 10's, and even X's, will not cut it. Group is a different game, and if you want to shoot group, you have to go with what has a realistic chance of winning.

I just called Bruno, and will have a 18 twist Krieger barrel for my HV by Friday. I have an excellent 17 twist on the HV now, but I think the 18 might, (now, that is a big might), have a tad of an advantage with the bullets we are shooting.

It takes time, and money, to find this stuff out. I am not relying on what others are saying, I am putting forth the effort to find out for myself. I do valuethe info that others have garnered over the years, but I think if you are going to make a serious effort at Group Shooting, you have to get into "group mentality".

One of the first things I found was dispelling that myth about the 30, "never having to change the tune". Well, that might be right in score, when you can still shoot 20 X"s, but when the groups open up to .300 verticle, or starts popping a shot about one bullet hole against the condition, you better do something.

Perhaps that is what more shooters need to be doing, rather than just talking about it.

Here is an added note. Non Benchrest Shooters are always lamenting about how we all shoot the same thing, that evil little 6PPC. No creativity. Right now, the only chambering that will agg as well, (that is proven), is the 22PPC Short. But, the Sporter rule makes most shy away from it, not to mention the aggravation in making those cases. The 30BR is probably the next alternative. The real drawback is the recoil. In a HV, it is not bad at all. But, you are only fooling yourself when you don't recognize that in a 10.5 pound Rifle, it does get noticeable as the week end drags on.

Of course, there is no cure for that, a 118 grn bullet at 3000+ is going to generate a certain amount of recoil. I need to get over to Carters Country and get one of those thin pads that soak up the felt recoil. That will help a lot......jackie

Alan Schenck
07-14-2009, 03:52 PM
Jackie, I think you're right on. Not enough data from enough people has been accumulated so far to make accurate descisions. Keep up the good work and maybe more people will get on the bandwagon. Thanks for your efforts. Al.

mwezell
07-14-2009, 04:11 PM
A well tuned 6ppc that will agg in the .1's should have no problem shooting
25x's.:rolleyes:

jackie schmidt
07-14-2009, 05:26 PM
Aha, that is the magic statement. Contray to wht is read about the 6PPC on this Forum, and just about any publication, the majority at any match are not tuned to 'agg in the teens'.

It ain't that easy.........jackie

mwezell
07-14-2009, 06:17 PM
Aha, that is the magic statement. Contray to wht is read about the 6PPC on this Forum, and just about any publication, the majority at any match are not tuned to 'agg in the teens'.

It ain't that easy.........jackie

Ok. but...A 6 only has to be able to agg a .305 to be "in tune" enough to shoot a mere 25x's. This brings us to the adage of "the first shot is free" in group doesn't it?;)--Mike Ezell

MatthewKeller
07-14-2009, 06:34 PM
lol. This is a funny discussion but just because the first shot in group may be free doesn't mean you can't put it where you want it. ;) But, even if you can have a .3xx agg and still shoot 25 zeros there is almost no one who could hold that precisely everytime in any condition. Just a thought!

Matthew S Keller

mwezell
07-14-2009, 06:38 PM
lol. This is a funny discussion but just because the first shot in group may be free doesn't mean you can't put it where you want it. ;)

Matthew S Keller

No, but the lack of 25x targets may well say something to that effect.

David Apple
07-15-2009, 05:57 AM
I have been pondering the Score shooting (VFS) and group shooting data...and it seems strange to me that the 30BR would dominate score shooting when the 6ppc holds a distinct edge in accuracy....here is how my small mind thinks..:rolleyes:...a HV 6ppc in avg. conditions in the hands of a compitent shooter will agg. @ 100 yds..180"-.220" a 30BR in the same theoretical match condtions will agg...240"-.330+"
Now take away the caliber difference and the 6ppc with its less recoil, torque
and less bag upset should be the dominant caliber in the score game..especially at 200 yds...:confused::rolleyes:
I have read the comments of several accomplished shooters stating that the 30BR just won't agg. good enough to be competitive with the 6ppc...so take away the caliber difference from the agg. and it would look like the 6ppc would be the runaway favorite...
Yes I know the score target has a 1/2" and 1" diameter ten ring...and best edge scoring is used...etc...etc..etc..
But you still have all the center to center advantage of the 6ppc and the better handling manners...one would surmise the 6ppc would have the advantage...I would if I were doing a data comparison decision...:)
If most group shooters are chasing the first bullet hole to acomplish a small group wouldn't that be the same as holding to hit the 10 ring...?

Your thoughts.?

Eddie in Texas

Eddie,
Where did you get your data from??? Giving everyone your source of information would be helpful so we could attempt to surmise like you did.
DA

LHSmith
07-15-2009, 07:51 AM
No disrespect intended, but, you can theorize how a group agg should correlate to a score agg all day long.....but the reality is.....in score the record targets are 5.5" apart which means there is a lot of interplay between the rifle and the bags.....this is the zone where $#*! happens. Do not discount this aspect of the game.
And Numbers 3 and 4 targets are 12.5" from the sighter.
Plus the additional time it takes to execute this moving around the target.....even more difficult to get all the shots in the same condition.
Add to all this the strategy of which sequence to shoot the targets.....and that 30 Aardvark (shooting Hunter Class) on the bench next to you just moved your dot 1/4 "..........What a game!

Pete Wass
07-15-2009, 10:16 AM
No disrespect intended, but, you can theorize how a group agg should correlate to a score agg all day long.....but the reality is.....in score the record targets are 5.5" apart which means there is a lot of interplay between the rifle and the bags.....this is the zone where $#*! happens. Do not discount this aspect of the game.
And Numbers 3 and 4 targets are 12.5" from the sighter.
Plus the additional time it takes to execute this moving around the target.....even more difficult to get all the shots in the same condition.
Add to all this the strategy of which sequence to shoot the targets.....and that 30 Aardvark (shooting Hunter Class) on the bench next to you just moved your dot 1/4 "..........What a game!


The big differences are the TIME and SPACE involved. Also, there is no way back from a bad match target, unlike Group, unless of course EVERYONE has a bad one; not likely. Shoot a 249-24 and where will you end up? Just behind the guy who got 250-0.

LRCampos
07-15-2009, 10:41 AM
The big differences are the TIME and SPACE involved. Also, there is no way back from a bad match target, unlike Group, unless of course EVERYONE has a bad one; not likely. Shoot a 249-24 and where will you end up? Just behind the guy who got 250-0.

I dont know much about Score shooting (heck, even group BR), as I only shot one registered match on IBS School in East Tawas in June 2008. But, in my opinion, any gun competition that in the end is a match of numbers of X, is not good to atract new shooters.

It may sound stupid, but I think in the next years there will be some change on the rings, to turn them smaller, so the match will be again on points, not Xs.

Said this, I would like to say that I liked very much Score BR!!

... In fact, on that IBS Score Match, I shot a 6PPC from Joe Krupa. And if my memory does not fail... from almost 30 shooters, the first 3 or 4 first places was all shot with 6PPCs (very well tunned)! ;)

MRL
07-15-2009, 11:30 AM
In a lot of competitions X's are counted. I can't see why it would make a difference to someone wanting to start in Score BR.

eww1350
07-15-2009, 12:02 PM
toDavid Apple..."
Eddie,Where did you get your data from??? Giving everyone your source of information would be helpful so we could attempt to surmise like you did."

David...I looked at all of the match results I could find from match reports on these forums and IBS websites...the 30BR group data is limited...and I used discussion on this forum about the agging capability of the 30BR...
No it is not scientific/spreadsheet type data but pretty close to reality...
The 6ppc is the "ONE" in group shooting why wouldn't it work as well in score shooting..???
The 30BR does not show up a serious contender in group shooting, but is the
"ONE" in score shooting...
I am looking at the agging capability of a given cartridge being a good indicator of its ability to shoot any discipline (100/200 yds) equally well...

LRCampos
07-15-2009, 12:26 PM
In a lot of competitions X's are counted. I can't see why it would make a difference to someone wanting to start in Score BR.

I dont know if your post was a response of my post. In any case, I dont see a problem on counting the X.

The problem is when the match is always won based on X count. Not on points.
This happened on F-Class a few years ago. They changed the score rings for smaller ones.

This happened on ISSF smallbore rifle matches. And they reduced the size of the rings (I think more than once...) until it is just a dot. Now they have points for the ten ring (10.1 to 10.9), but in this particular case, in order to compute these points, the targets are electronic.

mks
07-15-2009, 02:18 PM
Eww1350


Then the .308 would have the advantage of .308-.243= 065 /2 =0.0325 ( the advantage of fatter bullet only works in one direction right ) So a .30 BR can shoot 0.0325larger aggregates than a 6PPC but still have an equal chance neglecting more recoil, difference in ballistic etc.



Picture a bullet hole just touching the dot on the left and another just touching on the right. The advantage is the full difference in diameter. For an 0.0625" dot, the 30 can group 0.3705", while the 6mm must group 0.3055".

Cheers,
Keith

Jerry Reisdorff
07-15-2009, 02:49 PM
The problem is when the match is always won based on X count. Not on points.
This happened on F-Class a few years ago. They changed the score rings for smaller ones.

Ok - so you need to see the X = .04 point

Drop one point and you still loose. :D

Cheechako
07-15-2009, 03:11 PM
It's interesting that there's not a lot of talk (either score or group) about distances beyond 100 yards.

For the past several years It's been my opinion that 100 yard shooting has reached the point where it's an insult to the fine rifles and cartridges that we use. It was always said that 200 yards seperates the boys from the men and that gets truer and truer every day. If matches were held at 200 and 300 yards you'd be hearing shooters singing a different song. There'd be more talk about how to improve your shooting and less about making the targets smaller or the diameter of the bullet.

If the only goal is to see who can shoot the tiniest dot, why not move the tagets to 50 yards?

JMHO

Ray

Butch Lambert
07-15-2009, 04:35 PM
You're pretty damn smart Ray!
Butch

Rock63
07-15-2009, 04:47 PM
How about the 6br?

Herohank
07-15-2009, 05:12 PM
I'm a nobody and will not even dispute the fact, but in four years of shooting VFS with limited success, if you bring a .30 BR to the game not capable of shooting a flat .200 or less you are not in the hunt for wood, this is not a thread ending post just my $.02


Danny Hensley

jackie schmidt
07-15-2009, 05:48 PM
I must have missed the memo that said Benchrest was getting too easy.......jackie

Pete Wass
07-15-2009, 06:24 PM
people give to discredit the accuracy of the 30 BR, the both sides of the dot has nothing to do with grouping. If everybody shot at one target with one dot and the rifle returned to battery in the same place one would see some danged small groups and some danged small aggs I predict. This whole agg arguement is senseless, IMHO. There are plenty of people who can handle the recoil of the 30 BR and who are capable of steering them, the score game is not shooting small holes and not agging, it is aimed at perfection; 250-25 dots touched or as is the case now Wiped Out. Shoot 25 wipeouts and then measure that group. I think there have been 20 shot to date.

But this is a stupid arguement anyway becasue as I have always heard " you can't prove a negative".

tobybradshaw
07-15-2009, 06:49 PM
... the score game is not shooting small holes and not agging, it is aimed at perfection; 250-25 dots touched or as is the case now Wiped Out. Shoot 25 wipeouts and then measure that group. I think there have been 20 shot to date.


Group shooting is aimed at perfection, too -- an agg of 0.0000. At 100yd a 30BR can shoot 25 wipeouts with an agg as big as 0.2455 or so (if I'm doing the arithmetic right), which isn't going to win many 100yd group shoots. Of course, most 25-wipeout aggs would be smaller than that, but score shooting "perfection" isn't as demanding as group shooting "perfection," no matter how you add it up.

Obviously, to win at either score shooting or group shooting takes a fine rifle and a fine rifleman, but that fact that perfection HAS been attained in score shooting, but not in group shooting, tells you something important about the two games.

Toby Bradshaw
baywingdb@comcast.net

Al Nyhus
07-15-2009, 07:30 PM
.....it is aimed at perfection; 250-25 dots touched or as is the case now Wiped Out. Shoot 25 wipeouts and then measure that group. I think there have been 20 shot to date.

The record holders are:
LV 100 yds. 5 250-25X-18WO B. Llewellyn 8/10/08
HV 100 yds. 5 250-25X-21WO Al Weaver 5/14/06

No 25 wipeout targets shot yet in registered competition.

Jerry Reisdorff
07-16-2009, 07:24 AM
[QUOTE=tobybradshaw;518390]Group shooting is aimed at perfection, too -- an agg of 0.0000. At 100yd a 30BR can shoot 25 wipeouts with an agg as big as 0.2455 or so (if I'm doing the arithmetic right), which isn't going to win many 100yd group shoots. Of course, most 25-wipeout aggs would be smaller than that, but score shooting "perfection" isn't as demanding as group shooting "perfection," no matter how you add it up./QUOTE (baywingdb@c/QUOTE)]

See this post from last year ! http://benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51893&highlight=30BR

In the right hands it can shoot as well as a 6PPC.....

And that .2455 agg from what I saw, looking at the IBS group wining aggs, would be very competive.

tobybradshaw
07-16-2009, 11:28 AM
Jerry, I'm not taking sides in the 6PPC-30BR (great taste - less filling) argument. Never having shot a 30BR I can't have an informed opinion on that issue.

All I'm saying is that a perfect score in score shooting requires less absolute accuracy than a perfect agg in group shooting, and the absolute difference in "perfection" is the bullet diameter minus the diameter of the X-dot.

Apparently perfection has eluded both score shooters and group shooters in registered competition, so far. :)

To say that score shooting isn't about agging capability is wrong. It isn't only about agging capability, though, whereas group shooting is only about agging capability.

In group shooting I will admit to having chased an errant first record shot to preserve an agg, a luxury that score shooters don't have. However, I suspect that good group shooters (of which I am not one) rarely are forced to chase shots. Maybe some of those skilled group shooters will share with us the frequency of shot-chasing in their competitions.

Toby Bradshaw
baywingdb@comcast.net

Cheechako
07-16-2009, 11:43 AM
Point blank shooters have it made. At Long Range BR we shoot both group and score, at the same time, and we do it at distances 6 to 10 times further, without sighters.:eek: We don't sit around talking about making the X-ring smaller or shooting a bigger diameter bullet.;)

Ray

LHSmith
07-18-2009, 12:18 AM
Point blank shooters have it made. At Long Range BR we shoot both group and score, at the same time, and we do it at distances 6 to 10 times further, without sighters.:eek: We don't sit around talking about making the X-ring smaller or shooting a bigger diameter bullet.;)

Ray



But Ray, I like to shoot. I know in point blank I get to shoot at least 30 rounds (usually closer to 60).... even with my marksman skills.
I wouldn't take it too kindly to drive several hours and because I'm a mediocre shot be sent home after only 10 shots or whatever in the first round.