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Gary Walters
07-12-2009, 09:01 PM
Jackie can add commentary later.

http://i28.tinypic.com/19paw6.jpg

jackie schmidt
07-12-2009, 09:33 PM
Geramo Villareal had some 118 BIB's, enough to work with.

All I did was put the 118's on top of the same powder charge as the 112's. Of course, since they are a 10 o-give, they set up about .055 further out than the 112.

If any of you have been foloowing my "saga" with the 112's in my Rail Gun, I have been shooting it pretty well, but could not nail an honest to goodness sub .200 10-shot group.

The 118's seem to be what it needed. I shot a couple of five shot "ones", then nailed the two 10-shot groups that Gary posted.

The HV and Sporter seemed to like the 118's as well.

The groups shot were with 33.7 grns of 4198, with the 118 BIB just touching the lands. The Rail Gun and HV and a 1-17 twist Krieger, and the LV-Sporter has a 1-18 twist.

I never wanted to try the 118, mainly because I was scared of the added recoil in the 10.5 pound Rifle. But in all honesty, I could not tell the difference between the 118 and the 112.

This is still a on going project. I suppose Randy Robinett will be getting a call from me tomorrow about getting a good stash of 118's.......

We had a great day at the range. Gary, Vic, Ed, Myself, and our new World Champion, Gene Bukys, had some good conversation, Gene gave us a detailed account of his World Championship effort. Showed us all of his medals and pictures. And, speaking for myself, inspired us to reach for higher goals.........jackie

Pat B.
07-12-2009, 10:25 PM
Outstanding !

Donald
07-12-2009, 11:04 PM
Absolutely makes me sick. :o:p Bless you heart Jackie. You just keep trying son and some day you will shoot a good group. :D:D

Donald

alinwa
07-13-2009, 12:38 AM
3 guns, 3 barrels, I think you might've found the Magic Bullet eh!!!

Holey Wow.....

al

Al Nyhus
07-13-2009, 06:44 AM
Good job on keeping after the project, Jackie. As good as these 30BR's are, there's still times we need to try different bullet weights to see their full potential. :)

My recommendations to shooters asking what bullet to start with for the 30's twisted 1:17/1:18 is always the BIB 118 in either 7 or 10 ogive profiles. These bullets have proven over and over to be the quickest way to establish a solid baseline in whatever barrel I've shot them through: Lilja, Kostyshyn, Rock, etc.

And even though I make my own bullets now, I keep a stash of the BIB 118-7's on hand. I've got a barrel right now that's giving me some gas....the BIB's were the first remedy I tried to get it to shoot at a competitve level. When it wouldn't shoot the BIB 118's, I knew the barrel was a toad. :eek:

jackie schmidt
07-13-2009, 06:57 AM
The Rail Gun was pretty much on with the load, I tweeked the tuners on the two Bag guns, tightened them right up.

Every time I go to the range with these 30's, I learn a little more. That BIB 118 is a strange bullet, really high 0-give number, but quite a bit of body for such a short bullet. While I did not have my Chrono set up, (dead battery), I suspect the velocity will be right at 3000 fps. The added overall chamber capacity due to the longer set-up probably negates the the 6 grns more in weight, hence the pressure curve is probably identicle to the 112.

This load seems really mild, I have shot some of these cases 20+ times, and the primer pockets are still tight, and extraction is a breeze. The 100+ degree temperature yesterday didn't seem to have any ill affects.

It's fun messing with this stuff. It's good practice, shooting 10 shot groups is always a challenge, miss one little twitch, and you go over .200 instantly. Overall, a good day at the range.........jackie

Jeffreytooker
07-13-2009, 08:25 AM
Every time I go to the range with these 30's, I learn a little more. That BIB 118 is a strange bullet, really high 0-give number, but quite a bit of body for such a short bullet. While I did not have my Chrono set up, (dead battery), I suspect the velocity will be right at 3000 fps. The added overall chamber capacity due to the longer set-up probably negates the the 6 grns more in weight, hence the pressure curve is probably identicle to the 112.

jackie

There has been some discussion this weekend at our informal score match. The subject was the difference between the BIB .308 7 & 10 Ogive bullets. The 10 is just a bit longer. Performance wise are there any principal diffrences between the two bullets?

Jeffrey Tooker

glp
07-13-2009, 08:42 AM
There has been some discussion this weekend at our informal score match. The subject was the difference between the BIB .308 7 & 10 Ogive bullets. The 10 is just a bit longer. Performance wise are there any principal diffrences between the two bullets?

Jeffrey Tooker

if you are talking about the BIB 1" jacket bullets, both the 7 and 10 ogive use the same jacket length, the difference being the "pointiness"...the 10 ogive has less full caliber body and a longer, more pointed nose.

jackie schmidt
07-13-2009, 08:56 AM
I didn't have any 7 ogive 118's, I only had about 75 of the 10's. Enough to establish the tune, and shoot the groups shown.

I suspect that a 118 on a 7 ogive would need a little less powder, as it would set up at the same spot as a 112, with more bullet in the case.

I really do not know where I amat when looking at the perspective of "load window". I know in a 6PPC, we call 3400+ the "upper window", and 3320 to about 3400 the "middle window".

Evertime I tried to go much over 3050 with this 30 combination, it gets eratic. Judging from the usual suspect of indicators, (primer radius, ease of extraction, case life), I would say Iamin the "middle window". I sure can't see a need to gomuch higher.........jackie

caroby
07-13-2009, 09:50 AM
Boy, that 5 shot Sporter group is NICE! From a 10.5 gun to boot!

WOW,
cale

Ken Livengood
07-13-2009, 10:02 AM
Jackie, What lot of 4198 are you using? It must be a much hotter lot than is available now. I havent been able to use only in the 33.7 range since my 2000&2001 ran out. with 2007 I have to run at least 2 grains hotter.
Randys 118 10 ojive is about the best bullet I've ever used. anyhow the best shooting I ever did is with that bullet. They are a little more sensitive to
land contact but if you keep up with it they ARE the most CONSISTANT bullet
I've used.
Ken Livengood

jackie schmidt
07-13-2009, 10:22 AM
When I first started this project about 3 momths ago, I called Amy at Bruno's and asked her to send me 24 pounds of 4198. What I got is H-4198 Extreme Small Extruded.. The orange sticker on the side says 80520084550. There is a number on the front label that says 0519, and another, printed verticle, that reads t0106.

For what it is worth, it says "made in USA"..........jackie

Jeffreytooker
07-13-2009, 11:24 AM
Jackie, that's lot no. 4550, packaged on May 20, 2008. The jug is made in the USA, the powder in Australia as you know. Hodgdon has since corrected their printing. Alliant had a similar error.

I contacted Hodgden some weeks ago about the orange tag number. They said that the last four numbers were Hodgdon info numbers, but not the lot number. I asked specifically if the last four were a lot number. My H-4198 that I got from Powder Valley about 1 July is # 80316094701. That is March 16 09 8#. They would not tell me what the 4701 actually stood for.

Jeffrey Tooker

Fla mac
07-13-2009, 01:26 PM
Jackies,
I just started making my own bullets (first 200), Blackmon dies, 7 ogive, 112gr, .925 J4 jackets, and have been satisfied with the results. Iím using 34.5grs of H-4198, I need to check the vel. but right now if it isn't broken, don't fix it. I have used 34.8grs, with a Cheeks 118.
John
Mims,Fl

Ken Livengood
07-13-2009, 02:43 PM
Jackie, I also got 4 jugs of that same lot from Amy. I might just break it out and do some testing. Did you by chance chonograph your loads?
Ken

jackie schmidt
07-13-2009, 02:55 PM
Not yesterday, but in just about every other range session, I have Chrongraphed the loads.

Out of the 24 inch Rail Gun and HV Barrel, that load gets about 3020, in the 22 inch Sporter, a tad over 3000.

I have not had any luck trying to go much over that. Popped shots will kill an agg in a minute. 3050 seems to be about the top with this particular powder......jackie

Hal D.
07-13-2009, 03:03 PM
Either your chronograph is broke, or that 4198 is extremely hot compared to all I have tried. That includes the stuff Kenny used to like...Anyhow, my standard load uses 35.2grs to get 3050, albeit with a 115gr TenX bullet.

alinwa
07-13-2009, 04:26 PM
I have no business saying this, but I'm going to anyway :D

I think there's a lesson to be learned re estimating (guessing) what powder/primer/barrel combinations are gonna' do when running this hot. I've currently got two 6X47L barrels that are 200fps apart velocity-wise and I've had 6BR barrels do the same. My two newer Krieger 18 and Hart 17 30cal barrels seem to be BOTH 120fps different than my old Krieger 18"er and my 10's.

Conversely I've got 6BR barrels in 14-12-10 and 8 twist that can use the same loads.........

ALL's I'm saying is, maybe it's primers, maybe it's barrels or powders, maybe it's angle of the sun on the chrono's or latitude or density attitude I dunno, but in the end it's WHAT YOU GET from your own combination...... I think that pre-suppositions will bite'cherasss and in the end it's just about fiddle-diddling about 'til she hits, and Ol' Jackamo' just got 'er NAILED threetimes eh!!!

At least for this week :D

nahhhhh, these thirties just seem to stay where they're set until the barrel wears out..... IF the barrel wears out.... I've got a fireform barrel that's still drilling dots.

Good On Ya Jackie


al

Butch Lambert
07-13-2009, 05:51 PM
I have 2 lots of 4198 and they are a little older I believe. One is 2839B1794 and the other is 1220942892. Can anybody decipher those for me?
Butch

eww1350
07-13-2009, 06:04 PM
Hal and Ken...I think what you are missing is that here in the Texas heat we can get the higher velocity with 33.5-34.0 grain loads...I have shot about 4,000 rounds thru my 2 30BRs and my chronograph and others here are all showing 3025+ fps out of 34 grains of H4196 with 118 grain bullets from a 24" barrel....
I have been shooting H322 with good sucess with 110-112 grain bullets and I have pushed them as high as 3275 fps from a 23" barrel during the summer months...Jackies number are right on the money from what I and other Texas shooters get regularly...there is no chronograph error...


Eddie in Texas

jackie schmidt
07-13-2009, 07:20 PM
Keep in mind. I have not Chronographed the 118's as of yet. The velocity I posted were with the 112's.

From what I have read, based on other shooters posting, the 118 will probably be at about the same velocity.

I have shot these Rifles over a friends 35P, and I see no error in my unit.

As I said before, I have tried going up on the velocity, with questionable results. It acts just like a 6PPC when you get it too hot. It will shoot small groups, but pop enough shots to kill the agg, or produce a nine.........jackie

Ken Livengood
07-13-2009, 07:37 PM
This past weekend I chronographed my 18 T Hart bbl and a 17 T Lilja. Both barrels are HV and 24". With 07 4198 my Hart averaged 3044 with 35.2 and the lilja was 3055 I loaded 36gr in the lilja and it only went to 3068 for 10 shots. The thing about the old powder was it was heavier and you could get 37gr in the case. that useto be around 3150. This is all with a 118 10 ojive bullet.
this is with a 35p also.It was 76degrees with +- 60 percent humidity.
Ken

Hal D.
07-13-2009, 07:43 PM
Hal and Ken...I think what you are missing is that here in the Texas heat we can get the higher velocity with 33.5-34.0 grain loads...I have shot about 4,000 rounds thru my 2 30BRs and my chronograph and others here are all showing 3025+ fps out of 34 grains of H4196 with 118 grain bullets from a 24" barrel....
I have been shoot H322 with good sucess with 110-112 grain bullets and I have pushed them as high as 3275 fps from a 23" barrel during the summer months...Jackies number are right on the money from what I and other Texas shooters get regularly...there is no chronograph error...


Eddie in Texas

I was kidding about the "broke" chronograph thing, but these numbers you guys are quoting do seem almost unreal. I'm not saying they are unreal, just seems that way. Anyhow, I've been testing in hot and cold weather for three years now with the 30BR. And the beauty of the cartridge is the utter stability of the loads in a wide variety of temps. The velocities I get when its in the 40's is damn close to the same as it is when it's in the 90's.

jackie schmidt
07-13-2009, 07:57 PM
When I built my 30BR, it was in the Spring, temperatures were still in the 70's.

When it hit 90+, the loads that shot so well started openning up. It took dropping the load about .4 to get it back.

Right now, we are stuck with shooting in 100 degree temperature, heck, it hits 90 by 10AM. It will stay that way through August. Perhaps some other parts of the Country do not see the huge shifts in temperatures we do.

I tune the Rifle to where it shoots the tightest groups. I think 3000 fps is pretty good velocity wise,. Ed Bernabeo has a Rifle that is just about identicle to mine, same reamer, same barrel, a different lot of 4198. It shoots exactly the same load and velocity. Quite well, I might add......jackie

eww1350
07-13-2009, 07:57 PM
Interesting info Hal...There are 3 of us here at our local club that shoot 30BRs and when we hold our monthly money shoot, it is not uncommon for one of the guys to set up his chronograph out in front of his bench and shoot the entire 100-200 yard event collecting data and sharing the results of accuracy versus velocity...we try to stay on the 2950-2975 node...I have found that my H322 looses velocity during cool damp weather and gains velocity during very hot dry conditions...Now here is the real surprise to me...I cannot get 35+ grains of H4198 in my case without slow, slow dribbling it in with a funnel and 4 inch tube...it will fill up within 1/8" of the case mouth and resist seating my bullet (compressed load)...I am shooting 7 ogive bullets on an .925" jacket...I use an electronic PM and validate it with a balance beam scale in a stable environment...just can't put as much H4198 in a case that the shooters of the east put in theirs...
It would be a real eye-opener for you if you had an opportunity to load and shoot in Texas during the summer months...

Hal D.
07-13-2009, 08:06 PM
Interesting info Hal...There are 3 of us here at our local club that shoot 30BRs and when we hold our monthly money shoot, it is not uncommon for one of the guys to set up his chronograph out in front of his bench and shoot the entire 100-200 yard event collecting data and sharing the results of accuracy versus velocity...we try to stay on the 2950-2975 node...I have found that my H322 looses velocity during cool damp weather and gains velocity during very hot dry conditions...Now here is the real surprise to me...I cannot get 35+ grains of H4198 in my case without slow, slow dribbling it in with a funnel and 4 inch tube...it will fill up within 1/8" of the case mouth and resist seating my bullet (compressed load)...I am shooting 7 ogive bullets on an .925" jacket...I use an electronic PM and validate it with a balance beam scale in a stable environment...just can't put as much H4198 in a case that the shooters of the east put in theirs...
It would be a real eye-opener for you if you had an opportunity to load and shoot in Texas during the summer months...

Ya just need a longer drop tube man.;) I've seen Allie Euber drop over 38grs of 4198 into a standard 30BR case, well, almost all of it went in anyway.:rolleyes: I use a Chargemaster and then drop through a 10" tube. 35grs is indeed a compressed load, so a tight bushing is needed to keep the bullet there. I can get up to 37 grs in with a touch of room to spare...

Pete Wass
07-13-2009, 08:12 PM
to opine here but will anyway. I have been fooling with 30's since 1999. During that time I have had a number of different chamberings including the 30 BR. I currently have 2 of them and another about to come out of the shop. For years I drove them for all I could get out of them figuring the speed would help get through some light conditions. Over the winter I decided to back up and try the slow lane. Let's face it, we can't shoot through conditions.

I have two new barrels on my two 30-44's. I recently had tuners installed to both of them. I tried running them WAAAY up there with less than satisfactory results. I then decided to look for 2980 or so and guess what< one of them went into a hole with a 1/4th turn of the tuner. The other remained a problem. Didn't realy like 4198 nor RL-7. Can't get enough 322 into them to make any accuracy so abandoned that and I refuse to use even the Viht powder I have on hand. Recently some friends found the source of an obscure powder that is in the right burn rate for this case and the 30 BR so I begged some and magic happened. Once I found 2980 and took the tuner off the barrel, the TINY hole that we all covet. It does not like the tuner. When it came off they went into a hole.

I found the same sort of thing to be true with my 30-284. It shot the standard powders OK but was not a world beater. I had some 4197 Scott at the time so gave it a go and guess what, that rifle turned into a tack driver that stays in tune all the time. Fortunately a friend sold me a bit more so I am good for a while longer. I am having a new barrel chambered for it and am willing to bet it will prefer something other than the 4197 S.

The point I am trying to make is to look for alternatives and sometimes one finds them where they least expect to. Apparently some barrels are very fussy as to what they like and one's favorite powder may not be it! Be adventurous, Ya never know where you might find GOLD. Most barrels will shoot the "Standard stuff" the very best but some of them just don't like it and may like Rice Crispies instead. Give them what they like, not what you like would be my advice from what I have seen lately.

Something I find frustrating is the lack of an accurate powder burn rate chart. I have yet to see one that has powders listed where I know their burn rates to be. What's up with that?

Hal D.
07-13-2009, 08:13 PM
When I built my 30BR, it was in the Spring, temperatures were still in the 70's.

When it hit 90+, the loads that shot so well started openning up. It took dropping the load about .4 to get it back.

Right now, we are stuck with shooting in 100 degree temperature, heck, it hits 90 by 10AM. It will stay that way through August. Perhaps some other parts of the Country do not see the huge shifts in temperatures we do.

I tune the Rifle to where it shoots the tightest groups. I think 3000 fps is pretty good velocity wise,. Ed Bernabeo has a Rifle that is just about identicle to mine, same reamer, same barrel, a different lot of 4198. It shoots exactly the same load and velocity. Quite well, I might add......jackie

We haven't had any heat like that here for a long time, thankfully. It is indeed interesting to hear that your groups open up that much with not so much of a temp swing(70's to 90's). I have a copuple barrels that I haven't changed the load on in a year and a half. The tuner gets moved around a little, but not the charge. My latest two barrels need a little more attention, but still shoot great without too much hassle.

glp
07-14-2009, 06:37 AM
We haven't had any heat like that here for a long time, thankfully. It is indeed interesting to hear that your groups open up that much with not so much of a temp swing(70's to 90's). I have a copuple barrels that I haven't changed the load on in a year and a half. The tuner gets moved around a little, but not the charge. My latest two barrels need a little more attention, but still shoot great without too much hassle.

if there is a big difference in their air density from 70 or 80 to 100 deg?

Al Nyhus
07-14-2009, 07:37 AM
The bullets bearing surface length also plays a role. For example, the BIB 118-7's (1.00 jacket) are around .405 for an average while my 117/118's with a tangent 8 ogive run .375 for length.

In back-to-back testing, the BIB 118-7's have always shown a bit more velocity than my 117/118-8's with the identical powder weight. This seems a bit backwards from how it should be...less bearing surface = less frictional loss = more velocity, right? Maybe not. ;)

What I believe is happening: with a powder like 4198 in the 30BR case....where you can't physically get enough of it in the case to get a severe overpressure situation....the longer bearing surface changes the pressure curve enough to actually give higher velocities than a shorter bearing surface length bullet of the same weight with the same powder charge.

My bullets like an average of .8 gr. more powder to get the last bit of vertical out than the BIB 118-7's.
34.0/4198 with the BIB 118-7's shoots dots @ 3020 and 34.8/4198 with mine shoots dots @ 3020. The same .8 gr. spread happens down low. 32.7/4198 with the BIB 118-7 shoots dots and 33.5/4198 with mine shoots dots.

When you add in their pressure ring plumpitude, the BIB 118-7's and 118-10's are quite simply a 30BR tuners dream.:)

Just my theory on it. And like Tim Wilson sings: "But I could be wrong." :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRzJfdG_5w8

GlenO
07-14-2009, 07:42 AM
is something I was curious about a while back. In particular I wondered how it varied both with changes in temperature and relative humidity. I ran a few calculations to see what the effect(s) is/are. Attached is a spreadsheet that shows the numbers for the Houston, TX area.

I'm not sure it told me anything useful or anything that helps me shoot better groups/scores. But, anyway here're the numbers. :)

Glen

jackie schmidt
07-14-2009, 08:04 AM
I have a similiar experience when shooting the 112 BIB as compared to the 112 Cheeks. Set up is within a few thousanths of each other to achieve the same marks.

Visually, the two bullets are identicle. The only difference you can acsertain is when you measure them. The BIB will typically have a .3087 base diameter, the cheeks a .3083. Just forward of the base, the BIB will measure about .3083, while the cheeks hits dead on at .308.

In order to get the exact velocity, and the same agging capability, I have to shoot the Cheeks at 34.4 grns of my 4198. That is a pretty big jump from the 33.7 load that the BIB likes.

Just that little added diameter probably causes the pressure spike to occur a little sooner with the BIB, especially with the 4198. The tighter bullet simply builds pressure quicker.

Or, at least, that is my theory. We found the same thing when testing various 6mm match bullets. We could take twobullets of the same weight, and fins as much as 80 fps difference in the velocity oner the same charge. The biggest extreme was shooting a Bruno 00 Boat Tail over 30.4 grns of 133. That would typically give 3420 fps out of a 21 1/2 inch barrel. Place a Fowler, or other similiar long shank design bullet over the same charge, and it will darned near top 3500.

It has always made me wonder why loading manuals do not differentiate between bullet designs when publishing load data. As can be seen,it makes a big difference.

But then, when we were messing around with the IMR 4427 in the 30PPC, we found that there was as much as TWO GRNS DIFFERENCE in the cans stamped made in Canada, and the ones stamped made in Austrailia. If someone is working in theupper load window, that could get them in trouble quick.........jackie

Al Nyhus
07-14-2009, 08:35 AM
Jackie: when I was tinkering with H4227 Hodgden in my 30BR, the velocity situation with the BIB 118-7 and 118-10's was exactly reversed from what I've seen with H4198. The 118-10's gave more velocity than the 118-7's with the same charge. They also gave a bit more wiggle room before the pressure started getting snotty. With the 118-7's, it got up there right now. ;) I'll omit the exact charge weights I used, but at a certain weight it would shoot a mid .2 with all vertical, .3 gr. more would hammer 'em into a little dot about .080-.100, and .3 gr. more would thrash the cases. The .080-.100 groups would happen about 3,200. There was nothing down low that I could make work no matter what the jam, jump or neck tension.

When I blended H4227 with H4198, the blend (H4212.5? :D) took on all the characteristics of H4198..no matter what the ratio of the blend. -Al

alinwa
07-16-2009, 12:47 AM
Hokey su'MOKE Bullwinkle....... 3200 from a BR case is smouldering right down t'road eh.....

I only shoot 3250 with the 30X47L. 'Course I ain't played wit' powders yet.

:cool:

al