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Dave_Freitas
07-05-2009, 03:39 PM
What is the best method of dialing in a new tuner.

pickles
07-05-2009, 05:22 PM
~It works well to do this with a BR target like an RBA, USBR, ARA, with at least 25 different points to aim at (POA):

ADJUSTING YOUR TUNER

1. Set you tuner to "0" and fire two shots.
Turn tuner one complete revolution (25 clicks) and fire two shots, continue this until you reach "100". You now have a 10 shot group, all shot at the same POA.
2. Repeat step one from "100" to "200"
3. Repeat Step one from "200" to "300".
4. Repeat Step one from "300" to "400"
5. Repeat Step one from "400" to "500".
You now have five 10-shot groups. One of the 10-shot groups will show the smallest vertical stringing. You should have used only 50 rounds so far.
Let's say that you find that the "200" to "300" group shows the least vertical stringing.
6. Starting at "200", shoot 2 five shot groups. Shift to a different POA for each group.
7. Repeat at "225", "250", "275" and "300"
8. One of these settings will show a decrease in group size.
Example: "250" showed the smallest group.
9. Now, start at "245" and shoot a five shot group at 245, 247, 249, 251, 253 and 255.
You will locate the "sweet" spot of your rifle barrel.
10. If you have any doubts, start over at Step #6, and redo the testing.

This is also known as "The Hopewell Method"

Bryn
07-05-2009, 06:52 PM
Yesterday I went to the range to work my tuner. My plan was to follow the Hopewell method. Now, prior to this I adjusted my tuner two clicks at a time an settled on a setting of 41. So yesterday I started over and went through the whole Hopewell process. I found four great shooting tuner setting opportunities; 45, 132, 219, and 306. Then I decided to verify the four settings and retest these sweet spots. The retest targets looked as good if not better than the first test targets. So I ended up going back to a setting of 45. It wasn't until I was home and realized that the sweet spot setting were 87 clicks apart.:confused: Would this be the top and bottom of the node or just a coincident? My rifle is a Hall action, Shilen barrel, Harold's tuner w/bloop tube and extra weight. Ammo was Eley Match 1007-01005-1061. I shot over two probes and three flags....Thx Bryn

Pieter.45
07-06-2009, 04:17 AM
it would be ideal to shoot indoor while searching the setting.The wind factor is gone.

I found 2 sweet spots with mine and they were quite far apart too.Probably the top and bottom of the oscilation.

pacecil
07-06-2009, 05:16 PM
The Hopewell method says: You will locate the "sweet" spot

Most everyone else seems to agree (believe?) that there are multiple sweet spots. Is the Hopewell method just able to pick a spot, but maybe not the only one,or maybe not the best one?

It appears to me the Hopewell method simply allows you to select the best spot in one particular tuner revolution by firing a 10 shot group made up of shots at five different settings. The idea the 10 shot group with the least vertical has in it a sweet spot doesn't hold water. You may be looking at vertical caused by poi change rather than spread caused by bullet dispersion. You are simply choosing, almost at random, one revolution and firing two five shot groups at different settings, and then taking the best average as your sweet spot. You may have selected a spot within that one revolution, but no way to determine if it's the best one in all the tuner settings.

The Hopewell method is well named. You can hope that if you follow this method, things will turn out well! (Kinda like Obama, if you vote for him he wants you to have HOPE things will turn out well!)

pickles
07-08-2009, 06:05 PM
PACECIL: if you have a better mouse trap, please let us know. What else is published to help with the settings ?



thank you
pickles

bob finger
07-08-2009, 06:16 PM
Open your mind and think a bit. Lets say you find that you like 100-200 and 300-400. After you have found the right click setting between 100-200 do it again at 300-400. I usually find 3 very different settings that work well. Is one better than another? Don't know for sure, but I record all good settings when I run a Hopewell test. The test gets filed with the rifle data and I never have to do it again. If I want to mess around I have three settings to test, not a complete tuner worth of clicks.

Next step is to add 3 ounces, then 7 then 10 etc etc. At what point is it good enough? That my friends is the BIG question. bob finger

Dave_Freitas
07-08-2009, 06:46 PM
Do you need to use the same ammo as you compete with or can you use something cheaper (but still good).

bob finger
07-08-2009, 07:26 PM
I can only comment on my own experience. I always tune and often practice with SK Standard + (about $4 a box) and just ignore the flippers. Once dialed in I'll check rifle performance with my good stuff. I only have to test one time per rifle, unless I make a major change, so not a big deal either way. I can dial in a tuner with two maybe three boxes max. bob finger

pacecil
07-08-2009, 11:48 PM
Depends on what you believe.

If you think there are multiple sweet spots at regular intervals then all you have to do is determine the interval and you can very easily find all the sweet spots by firing very few shots.

If you believe the spots occur at random then there are no shortcuts. You have to check every setting - A whole lot of firing - no shortcuts!

Then if you believe within the multiple spots there is ONE that is best, you have to check every last sweet spot. Again a lot of shooting.

Also if you believe much (any) information is obtained from two shot groups then you have rim fire ammo and a rim fire rifle like none that I have ever seen! I would say you don't need to even put a tuner on your gun much less look for a way to find sweet spots!

Someone said: just ignore the flippers Right! Well, lets just ignore the next shot in there that enlarged the group. And then lets throw out that third shot in. It seems shooters will do what ever is necessary to find tuner sweet spots because .... they just have to be there!

pickles
07-09-2009, 05:10 PM
Pacecil, where do you shoot and under what name, I would like to see the scores you post, I know where Bob Finger shoots, but I have no idea who you are.



Semper fi
pickles

pickles
07-10-2009, 03:31 PM
I attempted today to find the sweetspot on my Suhl, Harrell tuner bedded in a Mcmilan BR stock bolts torqued to 25 in lbs..
I started at 0 and fired 5 shot groups. My best groups appear to be at 0 and 440, I shot 5 shot groups going down 3 click at a time for 12 clicks shots got worse. Reset to 440 grouped well again did 3 cilcks up for 15 clicks group got worse reset to 440 and shot well. I finished today thinking I found the correct setting. Next trip out I will try the 0 setting and see if that groups better, I will also shoot Remington subsonic's next time as they shoot best in my Suhl. Ammo I shot today was Aggulia match and target all shooting was done at fifty yards.
Guess I should have statted I shot 5 shot groups every 25 clicks and at different target to find my sweet spots. Next time to the range I will try settings at 0-25, 60-80 and again at 350-410, after looking at my target these seem to be promising.

Semper fi
pickles

tim
07-10-2009, 08:55 PM
Depends on what you believe.

If you think there are multiple sweet spots at regular intervals then all you have to do is determine the interval and you can very easily find all the sweet spots by firing very few shots.

If you believe the spots occur at random then there are no shortcuts. You have to check every setting - A whole lot of firing - no shortcuts!

Then if you believe within the multiple spots there is ONE that is best, you have to check every last sweet spot. Again a lot of shooting.

Also if you believe much (any) information is obtained from two shot groups then you have rim fire ammo and a rim fire rifle like none that I have ever seen! I would say you don't need to even put a tuner on your gun much less look for a way to find sweet spots!

Someone said: just ignore the flippers Right! Well, lets just ignore the next shot in there that enlarged the group. And then lets throw out that third shot in. It seems shooters will do what ever is necessary to find tuner sweet spots because .... they just have to be there!

Hey Cec, is it the same thing to mount one on the keyboard for you keyboard shooters? Do you move your tuner on your benchrest rifle...........Oh, I forgot, you don't shoot benchrest. Have you shot a br gun? touched one? Seen a photo of one? Kind of like going to the doctors office for a visit and getting your diagnosis from the guy that runs the parking garage.

pacecil
07-11-2009, 12:12 AM
In your last post it appears you are simply trying various settings and when a small group (or groups) turn up you then confirm this could be a sweet spot by shooting more groups. The smallest groups should indicate the sweet spots. This isn't rocket science, it just makes sense, and it seems to me you are doing just what has to be done to find sweet spots.

I can't understand how the Hopewell method could lead you to sweet spots but I can see how what you are doing will. The premise behind the Hopewell method is that two sweet spot shots in the group of ten somehow cause the other eight shots to fall in a smaller circle than another group of ten shots that don't contain those two shots. As I said I don't understand this premise - but then I don't shoot very high scores, and I don't look at or touch very many BR rifles so I guess there is no way I could ever grasp this very high level of benchrest science! Perhaps Tim can explain it.

alan k
07-11-2009, 11:08 AM
I start my tuner setting session with NO tuner. I try several lots of ammo to START my session with what my rifle likes best. Next I install the tuner and torque the bolts to 8 inch/lbs. I then add weight until the groups are 1/2 inch lower than the non tuner groups. Remember the Hopewell method is used to find horizontal. If your group is 3 in one hole with a shot or two out the top or bottom you are not quite there. You should find at least two sweet spots.

Al Kunard

Fred K
07-11-2009, 11:24 AM
I start my tuner setting session with NO tuner. I try several lots of ammo to START my session with what my rifle likes best. Next I install the tuner and torque the bolts to 8 inch/lbs. I then add weight until the groups are 1/2 inch lower than the non tuner groups. Remember the Hopewell method is used to find horizontal. If your group is 3 in one hole with a shot or two out the top or bottom you are not quite there. You should find at least two sweet spots.

Al Kunard

The hopewell method is not to find horizontal but Vertical
Fred K

nipper
07-11-2009, 11:29 AM
i am sure glad my smith pretuned mine with eley and said i should not have to go more than 5 clicks low ar high of where it is now based on my lower elevation/higher humidity where i will be shooting

bill

alan k
07-11-2009, 12:16 PM
Sorry FredK,

The Kunard Method is to find the setting where the group stops stringing from top to bottom or high to low and flattens out more left to right. At that point I know I'm getting close. But it might be a Georgia thing or my rifles don't measure up. I don't know much about this game, I just watch Bob Collins and try to do what he and Wayne Smith do to tune a rifle.

Al Kunard

pickles
07-11-2009, 12:58 PM
Pacecil, I think if you read all my post you will see that I have shot many groups. After I got home I seen other promissing area's that I said I would also try. I don't think I am trying any shortcuts. The idea is to find those spots that shoot the best and then work up and down from there. If I am missing something please correct me.

I shot 5 shots starting at 0 and at 25 click intervals thru 500, shooting at a new target for each 5 rounds, as I stated I have not added any weight, I will do that on my next range visit.

Please anyone tell me if I have missed the point of finding the sweet spot or spots.

pickles
07-11-2009, 05:16 PM
Like I said before, I satrted at 0 thru 500, 25 click incraments five shot groups at new target each time. While I was at the range 450 looked pertty good, so I went up and down from there and found 440 gave me good results, no shortcuts.

After I got home and looked further at the targets I see where I need to try around the 0 setting, again around the 50 setting and at 375 as well.

I have just added weight about 2-3 oz., I will add more after I shoot in the morning. If the weight helps, and from what I am hearing it will, I will weight what works and add that to my tuner, I have the old style tuner so no doubt I will epoxy the weight fast to the end of the tuner. For now it is taped to the tuner with electric tape.


Semper fi
pickles

pacecil
07-11-2009, 05:32 PM
I think you using a method that is ok - you should find sweet spots doing as you are doing. I didn't mean to imply you were doing something wrong, or that you were taking a shortcut. A shortcut is ok if it gets you the right answer quicker.

I've been thinking about what I said about two shot groups and I might have been in error. I should have said you can't get meaning out of two shots fired in with eight other shots. This is what the Hopewell method does. However if you compare two shots and then compare this with other two shot groups you can learn something. So, here's what you might try:

Fire two shot groups at each tuner setting. Then compare each group size and select the settings with smaller groups as possible sweet spots. Fire more two shot groups at these settings until you confirm they are in fact true sweet spots. Larger groups at all the other settings prove they are NOT sweet spots. That's the beauty of this method - it quickly eliminates the bad tuner settings. Since rim fires have a nasty characteristic of spreading their group sizes over a range of about .1" or .2", you will have to study the groups and decide how you will distinguish between "large" and "small" - THIS WON'T BE EASY! In fact you may come to the realization you can't positively find the tuner effect! But all that aside, I guarantee this method will find, with the fewest shots, just where your tuner is affecting your gun the most.

If sweet spots occur at equal intervals throughout the settings then you can shorten the whole process by just shooting over, lets say, half the settings and determining the interval from this. You can then move through the correct interval to find each sweet spot without having to fire any shots at intermediate settings.