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B. Harvey
06-16-2009, 04:04 PM
This is a question I have seen a couple of times and several have answered that they do lie, but then put a smiley behind the sentence or whatever.

If we look at what a windflag is, and how it is made, then it is easy to believe that they lie, and often.

Props, all of them I would guess, have a certain amount of slip, cavitation or whatever else you would call it. But they would have a certain speed where they are most efficient, and give the truest reading. My props are a 10" pitch and if you do the math, after maybe 1.8 mph (and giving them time to fully ramp up to that speed) are at 3 revolutions per second. After about 5 mph they might as well be solid discs.

If you have 4 flags, then trying to keep track of rps would be unrealistic.

Enter the tails. Some are very light and some are heavy. The light ones, after maybe 3-4 mph have given you about all it can. The heavy ones aren't worth dirt before maybe 3 mph and might be good to 7-10 mph, or until they are past a certain angle.

If you look at survey tape, it just flutters about at any speed. I have never been able to get along with this stuff. Sail tails (light or heavy) are much better but also have a working range.

Tails, as they rise, loose the initial surface area they had and the more they rise the less they have. This makes me wonder if a tail at say 45 degrees takes less or more wind to push it up even more. What I mean is, say it takes 4 mph to get it to 45 degrees, does it then take another 4 mph to get it to 90 degrees? Since it looses surface area it would seem to take more wind. But since it is getting pretty flat, does it get the float effect and actually take less wind to push it higher? Also, if a tail is out flat at 7-8 mph, and the wind is actually 12 mph, you already have a 4 mph error built in.

The vane just does what it can to tell direction and it seems to do a pretty fair job at that. It does seem to do a better job than a prop or tail.

My flags are a combination of a Wayne Smith flag, with two tails, one a snuffy light, the other a 2' piece of VHS tape, and a 2 blade 15" prop on a slow flyer gearbox. They are balanced very well.

The props start turning at below .5 mph. The VHS tape starts fluttering just before the props start. The sail tail starts at around 1 mph. The vane will turn in a little less than a 1 mph wind. This flag is sensitive.

Now, at the PSL match, the wind at times had my tails parallel with the ground, the props looked like solid disc's. Don't know how fast the wind was blowing, but I was holding quite a bit. It was during these times, as well as a few others, that my flags were lying, or they were totally missing something that was making me miss.

The Kettlefoot PSL match brought forth a desire to have an indicator that would respond quicker, and give a better indication of speed, as well as visually help show which conditions were more stable.

After testing for the past week, I have found something that has verified that my flags are not as good as I thought they were. My flags actually miss a ton of activity that is happening. They either respond anywhere from 1-2 seconds behind the test piece, or they flat miss the condition change all together.

The funny thing is that, with going to matches and seeing other flag, prop, tail designs, and anything else I could look at, it made me think I had the best flags that could be had.
A friend of mine brought up a very good point though. He asked, "If all the other guys shooting had crap windflags, how could they beat you"?

This made me ponder a few other thoughts. One mans treasure is another mans junk, and if I thought all the other flags were sub par, how then do these guys shoot so well? How do they read the flags so well when the flags have built in limitations or errors?

I know what you are thinking, "I don't shoot when my props are turning that fast, or if my tails are flat"

If this is true you'd score a ZERO if you went to a match where the wind was a constant 10-20 mph. Not to mention any windflag I've seen would be useless except for direction.

These things at least confirm in my mind that the top shooters already know the limitations of there equipment, and how to work within those limitations to achieve what they do.

But yes, flags do lie.

eww1350
06-16-2009, 04:34 PM
That's a pretty bold statement..:eek:..I have tried to get a polygraph on my windflags, but they will not answer any of the questions...:D..all they do is smile..:)
All kidding aside the skill of reading windflags and range conditions is eqivalent to a PHd in ??meterology??..there is a lot more than wind angle and velocity which most of the time comes like swirling currents of water...because the wind is bouncing off of every stable object it comes in contact with...it will waver and wobble across the range making the wind flag vane dance from side to side...and ad to that the relative humidty (water in the air) and how it distorts the image...to begin..one must find the ammo/load that is most accurate in his rifle...and that in itself is a chore considering you have to deal with conditions of some sort at all times...
Then once the rifle and load are as good as you can get them...go to a sighter bull and find out which flag/tail or probe position gives you...shoot heads up and watch the flags...if nothing is working change your method and chose a single flag or a combination of flags to test on the sighter...
I once shot my best group at 200 yards using my 25 yard flag and my wind probe (also at 25 yards) and nothing else...it was something I found by trial and error while shooting on the sighter and just trying different combinations of flags and probe...
I have lost matches because I chose a wrong combination and convinced myself to shoot it even though I only got 3 of my 5 shots to print in the same spot...my mistake NOT a lying flag..:rolleyes:

Fred J
06-16-2009, 04:45 PM
My flags lied to me, so I shot them. Now all they do is lie there on the ground with their eyes wide open not saying a thing. I'll stick with the Wind Probe for now.
Sorry about that.

Beau
06-16-2009, 06:02 PM
But yes, flags do lie.

They're not lying. You just don't understand them. You must be as one with the flag.

Bill Wynne
06-16-2009, 06:44 PM
They're not lying. You just don't understand them. You must be as one with the flag.


I'm a flag! I'm a flag!

I feel better now.

Concho Bill

Fred K
06-16-2009, 06:59 PM
I agree with Beau, they don't lie. We just don't always understand what they are trying to tell us.
Fred K

Beau
06-16-2009, 07:23 PM
I'm a flag! I'm a flag!

I feel better now.

Concho Bill

Just make sure you get that "l" in there.

dankillough
06-16-2009, 08:17 PM
I would agree we do not understand what they are telling us. Also, they are telling us what happened .5 sec or 1 second ago. I like to shoot straight over the top of my flags, so I realize they are slightly behind. I try to also watch the flags on the bench next to mine so that I can see any major changes that are coming, otherwise I get one of those shots that goes off target and then my flags change to confirm where the shot went. The flags were slightly behind. I thought it was interesting that DJ Hepler said in the PSL interview that he likes to put 2 rows of flags to his target.One row on each side of the target.(I have also seen Marion Collier do this). I think DJ & Marion are correct in doing this. I just do not like to carry around that many flags.
To determine velocity, I use extremely light tails that blow first, then the props start to turn, and then my probe will move. I have no idea what the actual wind speed is. I do not really care. When I pull the trigger, I try to take a snaphshot picture of the flags and probes in my mind. Then I know my bullet goes to point A when the flags look like this picture. I do not know the velocity of the wind, I just know where the bullet is likely to hit when the flags and probes are in this particular position.

B. Harvey
06-16-2009, 08:56 PM
The tests I have been running have shown the flag to be behind the probe (my own design) by a good second. This is even on a 180 switch which would have the tails getting the switch first. But the probe still picks it up ahead of the the tail. In a calm condition, where tails prop and all are motionless, then hit by a sudden gust, from any direction, the flag looks confused where the probe just shows what is happening, unless it is a head or tail wind of course. The flag itself just sort of flounders around. But, if it is a sudden hard gust from calm, and from a single direction, then the flag gets with the program pretty quick, but still well behind the probe. The two rows of flags is something I have thought of, but like most shooters, prefer not to lug all that around. Might be one reason DJ has won so much, being a smart shooter.

There have been many times I would have my eye on the flags, fire, and just after firing, the flags change, and yes the shot went out.

If using two rows of flags with a set 3 feet either side of your bullet path, and the wind is blowing 5 mph (7.33 feet per second), and your flags are .5 to 1 second behind the change, you see what is going to happen. At best the .5 second delay means the change has already affected your bullet path.

At the moment of firing a bullet, any and all data is used to aim that bullet, and a delay of info even half a second can make all the difference.

Beau
06-16-2009, 09:09 PM
When Bill Calfee built my rifle we tested it and Bill didn't use any wind flags. He said that Selby Wright had taught him to use what nature provides, instead of man made wind flags. He said Selby taught him that nature provides the absolute best wind indicators and that Selby taught him that nature's wind flags "don't lie"! I remember Selby shooting and he was always watching the subtle changes around him, leaves, cigarette smoke, things like that.

Bill does not use man made wind flags when he tests his rifles. He says he uses what nature provides, as he must test the value of his metal, not his ability to read man-made wind flags, which according to him, do lie. If you've ever shot a test session with him, it's kind of amazing. He's telling you what the wind is getting ready to do by watching the grass and the leaves and whatever else. There are no flags. I remember reading a book about benchrest where the author described basically the same thing but he did use flags. Lots of times you will get caught by a switch if you're not watching pretty far in every direction. The flag has to overcome inertia before it moves, and often you can see the tail move long before the flag turns. You must be as one with the flag and you must be as one with nature.

dankillough
06-17-2009, 08:15 AM
Brian,
What wind velocity does it take to change the bullets path? Will the .5mph wind deflect the bullet? or does it take more than that?

Fred K
06-17-2009, 09:01 AM
The deflection depends on the twist of the bore and if the wind is the same (flag point/wind velocity) along the entire 50yds. At least that is what I find.
I also find flags on both sides is the best. My homemade probe always shows movement before pointers, but not always before the tails.
Fred K

HuskerP7M8
06-17-2009, 09:16 AM
Brian,
What wind velocity does it take to change the bullets path? Will the .5mph wind deflect the bullet? or does it take more than that?

Dan,

I use Professor Art Pejsa’s software for my research and testing with projectiles in the transonic range of velocities and to the best of my knowledge it’s the most accurate available for this purpose.

Using a ballistic coefficient in the .15 to .16 range which is close to what McCoy observed at the Ballistic Research Laboratory with Eley and RWS round nose bullets shows a wind deflection of 0.04” at 50 yds for a .5mph wind.

Landy

dankillough
06-17-2009, 09:48 AM
Landy,
Would the flat nose Eley bullet have a better ballistic coefficient? Does the bullet deflection increase proportionally with wind velocity increase? Also, are you sure you are a corn farmer? You seem awful smart.:D

Fred K,
I would agree with you. It also seems that some lots of ammo will buck the wind better than others. I am not sure how that is possible, but it has been my experience. I do not know if it is a velocity difference or what.

Bill Myers
06-17-2009, 10:05 AM
Dan,I think that you asked me about my Paddle flags at the PSL shoot at Bristol,These are the only flags that give a absolute reading in both angle & velocity.& the instant let can be seen ,as the paddle set up imediately,no lag time.The paddle can be calibrated as where all paddles are at the same exact setting for velocityThey work better in stronger winds,But are sensitive in light blows,but need more attention,because of what i call suck back conditions,These are the only flags that will show this condition,It is a narrow window that does come & go in a instant,But it is a stable condition & can be shot if you know when to shoot it. BILL

Tenspot
06-17-2009, 11:14 AM
If a red mongolian butterfly in Jakarta flaps his wings does that result in an 8 ringer on bench 7 at Kettlefoot?

sailor
06-17-2009, 11:59 AM
Ok, new shooter chiming in here. Is it a myth that a puff of wind in the first 10 yards will move the point of impact more than a puff in the last ten yards?

Beau
06-17-2009, 12:11 PM
I wouldn't think that would be a myth would it. Look at it this way. Let's say you're walking straight towards the target and at ten yards there is a huge pile of bear crap in the way, so you sidestep it at an angle but you don't correct your path afterward. Assume the same thing only the bear crap is 10 yards away from the target and you sidestep at an angle with again no correction in your deviation. Which way would you be further away from the target at 50 yards? Of course with a puff of air you have to assume all other things are equal.

Seems fairly logical, but it doesn't always seem to work that way, but the laws of physics always apply.

B. Harvey
06-17-2009, 12:15 PM
Dan, I do not know if a .5 mph wind will move the bullet, but I would think it would. Measuring the conditions and velocity at 10 and 50 yards, the BC of EPS calculated out to .145 . According to JBM, a 10 mph wind will give 1" of deflection at 50 yards. So, a .5 mph wind should give .050" of deflection, or a half ring hold on the RBA target.

Fred K
06-17-2009, 12:40 PM
Salor
It seems the wind has more effect when the bullet is slowing down the most. Therefore the wind will effect the bullet more in the first 10yds because that is when the bullet is slowing down the most.
Fred K

Tenspot
06-17-2009, 01:13 PM
About the .5 mph wind moving a bullet.....

I would yes, most ceratinly, not much, but still yes.

To use an analogy not far from beua's (bears crap in the woods, not the range):D

If a car is going down the road and the road moves left 20 feet the car moves left 20 feet. The road is the medium carrying the car. The air is medium carrying the bullet.



On a different note, if the car is traveling at the speed of light and turns on its headlights, what happens???

Fred K
06-17-2009, 01:36 PM
Dark !!!!

Bill Wynne
06-18-2009, 07:40 PM
Back by popular demand!

Concho Bill

Peter Armstrong
06-18-2009, 07:55 PM
Ok, new shooter chiming in here. Is it a myth that a puff of wind in the first 10 yards will move the point of impact more than a puff in the last ten yards?

Hello Sailor
It’s true and can make your eyes water too, but I try and identify which shooter the wind is coming from and sit at least 10m up breeze from them.

Peter

2Dogs
06-18-2009, 09:27 PM
Thank You Bill. This is interesting.

TangoTwo
06-19-2009, 06:03 AM
Dan,

I use Professor Art Pejsa’s software for my research and testing with projectiles in the transonic range of velocities and to the best of my knowledge it’s the most accurate available for this purpose.

Using a ballistic coefficient in the .15 to .16 range which is close to what McCoy observed at the Ballistic Research Laboratory with Eley and RWS round nose bullets shows a wind deflection of 0.04” at 50 yds for a .5mph wind.

Landy

Landy,

How do you explain shooting when the conditions are "dead calm" and bullets don't go where they're supposed to? Case in point: shoot with all flags pointed at three o'clock, dead air, tails hanging straight down. Now let the flags turn to nine o'clock tails straight down. Point of impact will be one full ring to the right. Dead calm, don't believe it. If I'm not mistaken that would be .125", with no wind. Don't know why, but, you do have to adjust your hold.

Ken

HuskerP7M8
06-19-2009, 11:01 AM
Ken,

Sorry, but I can’t provide an explanation for that much movement under the conditions you describe….not from a ballistics standpoint anyway.

Let’s try approaching this anomalous projectile behavior from another perspective: That being the normal random dispersion inherent in all shot groupings with rimfires.

First, you have to agree that there is not a rimfire in existence capable of placing every shot thru the same hole. You may be able to fire a short series of shots where random chance allows you to do it but when you fire a longer series of shots such as you would at a BR target….the group becomes quite large.
How large you say….well based on only a partial analysis of the scores being fired indoors where conditions are most conducive for determining the rifles capabilities vs the shooter’s ability, I can make an educated guess or rough estimate of maybe 0.300” give or take a few hundredths.
Without troubling with a mathematical analysis or using the GAP software, I would think we’d see a lot more IR 50/50 250 25x’s (0.255” 25 shot group size), ARA 2500’s (0.276” 25 shot group size), and PSL 2500’s (0.283” 25 shot group size) if anybody has rifles consistently shooting better than the 0.300” range. We do seem to see many more USBR 250’s (0.324” 25 shot group size).

Please let me know if my measurements are incorrect or if my thoughts on scores are erroneous because those are the numbers I’m using for my rough estimate.

Anyway, I think that any shot within the .3” to .5” range (depends on your rifle’s accuracy) might be declared a flyer or attributed to some unseen force, but, may just be simply an outlier from the boundaries of the density pattern/grouping normally formed by “your” rifle.

If you’re curious about what I typically see with my firearms with the methods I’ve developed and the GAP software….you could look at my blog.
BTW, I’m just another one of those internet “expurts” and there are thousands of them….so your mileage may vary.

Landy

B. Harvey
06-19-2009, 11:42 AM
Ken, in testing a new probe that I built, when the flags are motionless, the probe will actually pick up puffs of wind that will show an equal deflection to what a steady 3 mph shows. The tails and props never see these puffs and if that is usually what is happening in what we are used to knowing as a calm condition, then no wonder the accuracy goes to pot.

crb
06-19-2009, 12:06 PM
Let’s try approaching this anomalous projectile behavior from another perspective: That being the normal random dispersion inherent in all shot groupings with rimfires.Landy

That will not explain why my AGBR rifle shows the exact same behaviour under the 'calm' condition. Even at 25 yds and with 4 ultra sensitive flags you don't have any idea where the pellet is going if the flags are showing a dead calm.

HuskerP7M8
06-19-2009, 12:54 PM
That will not explain why my AGBR rifle shows the exact same behaviour under the 'calm' condition. Even at 25 yds and with 4 ultra sensitive flags you don't have any idea where the pellet is going if the flags are showing a dead calm.

There must be some confusion on your part or mine.
The way I understand your statement….you’re proving my contention.
Let me know.

Landy

crb
06-19-2009, 01:14 PM
I think you may be right about the confusion. There is NO WAY I think that the wind makes my gun capable of better groups and in a genuine dead calm [ as in a tunnel ]that it will naturally shoot big groups. If that is your contention then you are definitely right about the confusion.

HuskerP7M8
06-19-2009, 01:20 PM
I think you may be right about the confusion. There is NO WAY I think that the wind makes my gun capable of better groups and in a genuine dead calm [ as in a tunnel ]that it will naturally shoot big groups. If that is your contention then you are definitely right about the confusion.

We agree then.:D

cdupuy
06-19-2009, 04:22 PM
I must disagree that the most effect of the bullet movement is that of the forst 10 or so yards, this is brought to light as the bullet is most effected by the wind in the slowest speed throughout the course, that said the wind at the target has the most effect due to the slowest speed of the bullet.

There are residual wind conditions that must be considered also, these are when the wind comes OFF from a value and falls the flaggs one needas to be careful to wait until all the aforementioned wind is gone.

Clarence

Fred K
06-19-2009, 05:49 PM
cdupuy
The wind has the most effect when the bullet is slowing down the most and that is in the first 0 to 15 yds. Not when the bullet is going the slowest.
Fred K

Boer bok
06-19-2009, 06:06 PM
I think I have found out due to wind probe why on a calm day that for the most part there is usualy a steady wind blowing allthough my body does not detact the wind. So it is very important to use probe more closley then on a gusty or hard wind day. I think on a calm day we doin't pay close attention when we should pay closer attention.
BOER

langenc
06-19-2009, 09:03 PM
Glad to hear mine are not the only liars.

Carp
06-19-2009, 09:33 PM
You all can shoot groups all you want. have itsy-bitsy ones or large ones. But can you actually PREDICT where a bullet will impact on a score target? The wind effects the bullet, but, is it predictable? If it isn't then your gun is not in tune and/or you are forgetting the largest part of the paradox. If your gun is predictable in the calm can it predictably shoot in the wind?

Carp

cdupuy
06-19-2009, 10:05 PM
Fred we could argue this all day, however have you ever shot the 1000yd matches? I never watch the closest flag except for direction.

Clarence

Fred J
06-19-2009, 10:09 PM
That may be true for 1,000 yards, but this is 50 yards we're talking about.
They are all important, so take a few extra sighters as the flags move around, and then make up your mind as to which condition you like the best.

TangoTwo
06-20-2009, 06:44 AM
Landy,

I can't explain why a bullet will drift that much in dead air either. But it's there and it's real. Another problem with dead calm is layered air or thermals. Can't see them on the flags, but they can affect the flight path of the bullet. Don't blame the rifle, most of the rifles we use are capable of very small groups. If you don't see a conditon change, or don't recognize it, not the rifle's fault.

Ken

Fred K
06-20-2009, 07:11 AM
cdupuy
No I don't shoot 1000yds, I'm sure in that distance many spots along the way could and will affect the drift. However I was talking about 50yds with a .22 bullet and not high power stuff. Lets not mix oranges and apples.
Fred K

HuskerP7M8
06-20-2009, 09:14 AM
Landy,

I can't explain why a bullet will drift that much in dead air either. But it's there and it's real. Another problem with dead calm is layered air or thermals. Can't see them on the flags, but they can affect the flight path of the bullet. Don't blame the rifle, most of the rifles we use are capable of very small groups. If you don't see a conditon change, or don't recognize it, not the rifle's fault.


Ken,

We might have to respectfully disagree on this matter. Nothing new about disagreeing on rimfire accuracy….is there? :D

What are your “or” other shooter’s thoughts on my estimate of winning rifle accuracy?
Do you believe there are rimfires capable of consistently shooting much less than 0.300” for 25 shot groups?
5 shot groups well below this range are relatively easy in my indoor testing, but incredibly rare for me with 25 shot groups and I’ve never done it with a 50 or 100 shot group.

One of the biggest drawbacks in my quest has been my inability to acquire accuracy data from those shooters who may have rimfires much more accurate than mine. I need this data to be able to make direct comparisons with your rifles and refine my testing methodology. At present, I’m reduced to making the estimates stated above.

Until proven otherwise, I still contend that most of these unexplained shots attributed to anomalous wind behavior are simply outliers near the boundaries of how your rimfire normally groups. Have you or others ever tried to shoot a very large multi-shot group under perfect conditions indoors?

As regards layered air and thermals, I’m not capable of testing for this phenomenon or doing the calculations to determine the amount of movement, but I have explored the mirage aspect due to it. When I first started testing I lit my targets with incandescent lights but soon discovered the heat generated was causing about 1 to 2 X-hair diameters of movement and I had to switch to cold fluorescent lighting.

Landy

langenc
06-20-2009, 09:49 AM
Guns always shoot the same... Wherever the operator touches it off.

The wind affects the bullet, always the same for the exact conditions-which never affect two bullets in a row the same-cause from one bullet to the next the wind will vary weather we recgonize it or not.

The operator is different, also. Consistancy is what gets good scores.

In order to achieve consistancy mfgs use rests to shoot-esp pistols.

Fred K
06-20-2009, 09:49 AM
Quote
As regards layered air and thermals, I’m not capable of testing for this phenomenon or doing the calculations to determine the amount of movement, but I have explored the mirage aspect due to it. When I first started testing I lit my targets with incandescent lights but soon discovered the heat generated was causing about 1 to 2 X-hair diameters of movement and I had to switch to cold fluorescent lighting.
Landy

How far away from the target was your incandescent lights ?
Explain the configuration please.
Thanks
Fred K

Spott3r
06-20-2009, 10:24 AM
It is assumed that each shot starts out the same way.

That every bullet is perfect.

That every cartridge has the same number of grains and the action/trigger/bore is the same for every shot.

That every trigger press is equivalent..

That barrel heat does not affect the shot.

The best shooters learn the conditions and make the best of them..even wearing red shoes.

How can a flag lie when the wind bends it just so..is it just that the condition is not understood correctly.

:o:)

TangoTwo
06-20-2009, 02:42 PM
Landy,

The dead calm change from 3 to 9 o'clock is repeatable. When the flags change from one extreme to the other, your hold will have to move from one side of the ten ring to the other. When the flags turn back to the original direction, your hold will have to go to the original POA. That is not a function of group dispersement.

Most often quoted maximum group size accepted to be competitive is .25" average. That leaves little room for error when shooting at a .25" bull or trying to keep your shot inside a .5" circle. I don't know anyone that shoots 25 shot groups. I do know, and have shot against, several shooters that will shoot 25 tens with 19-20+ X's on an IR50/50 target. That will equate to a small group. However, since this is not shot in a vacuum, several, to lots of, sighters are generally used to confirm condtions.

Ken

Boer bok
06-20-2009, 03:07 PM
Where can i see a bill myers paddle flag?????????????????
Any body goy a link to them??????
Boer

HuskerP7M8
06-20-2009, 05:58 PM
Quote
As regards layered air and thermals, I’m not capable of testing for this phenomenon or doing the calculations to determine the amount of movement, but I have explored the mirage aspect due to it. When I first started testing I lit my targets with incandescent lights but soon discovered the heat generated was causing about 1 to 2 X-hair diameters of movement and I had to switch to cold fluorescent lighting.
Landy

How far away from the target was your incandescent lights ?
Explain the configuration please.
Thanks
Fred K

Fred,

I shoot in a very large machinery shed/shop where I store and work on my large farm equipment. It’s about 50’ x 150’ with 20’ ceiling. It’s lit dimly but I like a bright target and hang “trouble lights” quite close to the target (5’ to 7’). If I was to hang them above my line of fire and a little further away, they probably wouldn’t be a factor in producing mirage (Hot air rises and very little if any radiant energy should be produced at the target). Since I also have several portable fluorescent work lights….that’s a simpler solution.
If you’re thinking hot lights might be a factor in indoor or night matches, I can’t give you an answer because I’m just one of those dreaded keyboard shooters that constantly gets tar and feathered on shooting forums.

Landy

Fred K
06-20-2009, 07:50 PM
Thanks Landy for the reply.
Regards
Fred L

HuskerP7M8
06-20-2009, 08:28 PM
Landy,

Most often quoted maximum group size accepted to be competitive is .25" average. That leaves little room for error when shooting at a .25" bull or trying to keep your shot inside a .5" circle. I don't know anyone that shoots 25 shot groups. I do know, and have shot against, several shooters that will shoot 25 tens with 19-20+ X's on an IR50/50 target. That will equate to a small group. However, since this is not shot in a vacuum, several, to lots of, sighters are generally used to confirm condtions.

Ken


Ken,

I would agree with your assessment of accuracy because my estimate assumes POA & POI are perfectly matched and I’m not sure that’s possible to determine under match conditions unless it’s after the fact or in hindsight.

Thanks for the response,
Landy

pacecil
06-20-2009, 09:58 PM
To HuskerP7M8, Glad to see someone with a handle on rim fire accuracy. Have put forth group size of .3 to .5 many times but usually get that old response of "you aren't a real bench rest shooter so what could you know". The "real" bench rest pros always average .25! Some times their maximum groups are .25! Why sometimes they know within .05 where their bullet is going to land....except when it doesn't!

Tango two just said:
Most often quoted maximum group size accepted to be competitive is .25" average.
???????? Your guess is as good as mine! I guess if the average of my maximum groups is .25, that's good enough! But wait what's the maximum of my maximums?

With groups varying .1" in any direction some shooters draw all sorts of conclusions,from a few shots, sometimes only one shot: the effect of wind, how their tuner is doing, effect of temperature, effect of twist, effect of ammo brand or lot number, and on and on!

I think the shooter who is really smart was that guy who just shot 2 shot groups to determine how his equipment was performing. He just got a quick answer so he could get on with shooting his never-over-.25" gun for record!


Guns always shoot the same... Wherever the operator touches it off.
???????Now see, he's got it down to a science!


I can't explain why a bullet will drift that much in dead air
?????Well maybe it's just a breakdown in physics!


In order to achieve consistancy mfgs use rests to shoot-esp pistols.
Well gee why don't we do that with our rifles!

TangoTwo
06-21-2009, 05:45 AM
Brian,

Your thread is still going strong! The flags are telling us what they see, we have to interperate that into where the bullet is going. Not all conditions show up on the flags or they show too late for your last shot.


Quote:

because I’m just one of those dreaded keyboard shooters that constantly gets tar and feathered on shooting forums.

Landy

No need for tar and feathers. Those that get that come here asking for advice from the best shooters here, then tell them that can't be right. May not make a lot of sense sometimes, but, what works, works.


Cecil,

To be competitive, your .25 average group can't contain anything over about 3/8" max size. Even that, allows .0" for error.

Surely you can't believe physics is on duty full time in this game? If it was, why do my bullets drift a ring on dead calm days, sometimes. On other days a one mph breeze will just flutter the tails. Those days, don't matter if they are left, right, or multi-direction, hold center and shoot. If physics were in effect, the one mph breeze would have more affect than "dead calm" would it not?

Like I said, some things work, some dont, not always a good reason for either.

Ken

pacecil
06-21-2009, 09:06 AM
To be competitive, your .25 average group can't contain anything over about 3/8" max size. Even that, allows .0" for error.
I just "throw out" groups as big as 3/8 - there's always a reason for those big groups so I just don't pay any attention to them! Then I don't often see 1/8 groups so I end up with a rifle out of which every group is .25!

Surely you can't believe physics is on duty full time in this game? If it was, why do my bullets drift a ring on dead calm days, sometimes. On other days a one mph breeze will just flutter the tails. Those days, don't matter if they are left, right, or multi-direction, hold center and shoot. If physics were in effect, the one mph breeze would have more affect than "dead calm" would it not?
O, I know there are times when He puts His finger in on my shooting - and when it's dead calm it seems like a miracle! But I know if I just have faith, He will restore things to a rightful place and the wind will again blow my bullets as it was intelligently designed to do!

B. Harvey
06-21-2009, 09:26 AM
Ken

My whole point to the thread was that flags are too slow, or limited in what they CAN tell us at the time of firing a bullet. The all seem to have a range where they are more accurate, and therefore, tell us the truth most of the time. But when a shot goes out and you fired it as the flags were reading the same as the last four or five shots, this is the area where things are different and we can't explain it.

Have been testing a probe I built and so far what it is showing are a lot of small gusts that occur, in a pattern that gives the tails what you would call an AVERAGE reading. The tails will read the average of these gusts and give you an angle which is this average. Unless the pick up or let off is pretty large, the tails will not read it.

The probe is actually giving a much better indication of what is happening.
You would be amazed how many speed changes the tails either do not see, or take a while to see and give you a new angle.

Now I realize many things are happening in every foot of space I don't have a flag, 145 to be exact, but I am a lot more understanding of what is happening with my flags in the last two weeks of testing.

Smoke on each flag agrees with my probes and I would trust them long before trusting the tails again.

As far as having a rifle shoot itty bitty groups every time out, I would have to agree with Harry in that your ammo will like a particular condition each day. Finding this condition, for me, is the hard part.

Brian

Pete Roberson
06-21-2009, 10:14 AM
Sir, are you going to be selling these probes and / or can you show us what they look like?
Thanks!
Pete

B. Harvey
06-21-2009, 11:04 AM
I am very close, if not at the point, that I am happy with it's calibration.

But the southeast does not get the kind of wind I hear about in other regions.
They might need it tuned a little bit different.

Right now, a 15 mph gives a 90 degree indication, and a 7.5 mph gives 45 degrees, so it is quite linear. I have another set up that gives 45 degrees at 10 mph so it might be better for the hard blown areas.

I am going to make a video next weekend and post it on youtube so I will let you guys know when it is up.

TangoTwo
06-21-2009, 11:55 AM
Brian,

Sounds like you have a handle on what's happening. How many times has a shot gone out and you watch the flags turn just after your bullet went by? I would like to see what your probe looks like too. Keep us informed.

Ken

TangoTwo
06-21-2009, 11:59 AM
[QUOTE=pacecil;

O, I know there are times when He puts His finger in on my shooting - and when it's dead calm it seems like a miracle! But I know if I just have faith, He will restore things to a rightful place and the wind will again blow my bullets as it was intelligently designed to do![/QUOTE]


Keep the faith Cecil. Someday when he puts his finger on your shooting, you may be able to keep up with the big dogs.

Until then, remember to average in those 3/8" groups too.

Ken

B. Harvey
06-22-2009, 04:47 PM
Some testing today seem to reveal that the wind, as it is coming from one direction or another, looks to be wedge shaped. Stacked 3 probes with 20" between them height wise, and just watched. When the wind was from 3, they would react top to bottom about .25 to .5 second apart. Then from 9 it was opposite with reaction from bottom to top. Let ups had them respond in reverse order from each direction. With gusts it was more random. With a consistent push they all reacted at the same time.

It was gusty today before the rain came and a shootable condition was pretty rare, with fast switches and big speed changes. But we get what we get at a match since we don't go by Nascar rules, we race rain or shine.

How many matches have you been to where it looked to be pretty much unshootable, in that the wind was just crazy and you shot through what you could only to have the last five minutes of the relay be golden?

Or vice versa where the first five was gold and you wasted all that time on a few sighters and maybe got one row shot, just in time for the conditions to get bad?

Since we never know what is going to happen we need all the help we can get.

The probe looks as though it will help greatly but if conditions are bad, it will just confirm it.

750k2
06-23-2009, 05:09 AM
I'm not a pro but will add an observation.
Our cottonwoods went off big time this year.
It was like it was snowing.
The wind was about 5-8mph.
It was like having thousands of flags at all heights
and yardage's.
It was my best wind class yet - you could see every reverse
up drafts - down drafts even mini tornados dancing around.
There is no way you could ever have it all covered.
You can pick up some of the conditions but never all between
you and the target.
Flags don't lie they just don't talk to each other;)

ProneShooter
06-23-2009, 07:43 PM
It seems that everyone thinks of the wind like we see it it in a wind tunnel. Nice linear flow with the smoke or flag steaming along the object being tested. The wind in the real (outside) world is more like white water in a fast moving stream. It eddies and boils around objects with back flows and pressure differences. The wind in the (moving) shade from a cloud will often have more pressure. The ground and everything around influences the flows and speed of the wind. When you add to the mix the very real impact of mirage and light changes it is a wonder that we shoot any decent groups.

Speaking of groups I would like to hear about the real average groups instead of the once in a lifetime best group fired that it seems most people consider to be the group that reflects the accuracy of their guns.

2Dogs
06-23-2009, 08:23 PM
I dont think wind flags lie, they are only able to part of the story. Wind flags are made to detect horizontal movement and not virtical movement, especially in what appears to be calm conditions

B. Harvey
06-24-2009, 01:26 PM
Well obviously wind flags only give an indication of wind in that location only. No one expects it to tell you what the wind is doing 20 feet from it either.

This thread is about wind at the flag, and that flags inability to tell you much other than a general direction and estimated speed. It is in no way very accurate. It is slow and at times does not even pick up a small change in velocity. This means the flags lie plain and simple.

mr. nobody
06-24-2009, 01:40 PM
i have stopped shooting when the flags stop spinning!! what should have been a dead on x shot was a 12:00 high shot. i like the flags for myself.

J Pappas
06-24-2009, 01:54 PM
I notice that DJ's, Joe Besche, Darrel Barnes, Dan Killough's, Jerry Graves, Bob Barnhart, Mark Meadows and Kirk Gastons flags don't lie as often as mine do. Anyone else notice that?

B. Harvey
06-24-2009, 02:05 PM
James, that was part of the initial post in that there flags lie also, but they know how to read them better, or are at least familiar with there flags limitations. Until a month or so ago, I had blind faith in what they told me.
But, after too many misses with the same reading, and too many misses and you see the flags change just AFTER you miss a shot, I was/am fed up.

The speed changes are where I was getting killed. The angle change is easy to see. When you have a shot go out at 10 or 4 from a 3 o'clock wind, that tells of a speed change.

TangoTwo
06-24-2009, 05:08 PM
James,

Cliff Keesee told me he took all his flags to the local sheriff and had him give them a lie detector test. Think I bought the ones that failed the test.:(

Ken

B. Harvey
06-27-2009, 04:17 PM
Knowing what I knew about my flags, I decided to build some new ones with the same build qualities as the indicator, light and responsive that is.

The final weight is around 1/3 of my normal flag, and this is even without tails or props on my normal flag. The shaft and vane make up the new one with a light tail and then going by clock position on the vane, and angle on the indicator.

So, the shaft and vane are 1/3 weight of the old and slow one.
With an even, balanced set up on each, the new one is never behind the indicator on a direction change. If you remember, the old one was quite slow in reaction to the indicator. Now I know why.

Mine uses delrin hubs sitting on a steel post. The only thing I can figure, is that with the old heavy one, is that friction is playing a large role in how the flag reacts.

As good as I thought they were, well, they were junk compared to the new ones.

Boer bok
06-27-2009, 05:52 PM
Check out gene beggs article on snipers paradise. Very well
spoken. Also check out orlando flags & probes he has come up with a turbine on his probes looks & sounds good. I thikn the probe is the best thing for br shooters that hase happened in a while, if you will take the time to study them & shoot when they tell you.
Boer

Wilbur
06-27-2009, 07:27 PM
.........
Speaking of groups I would like to hear about the real average groups instead of the once in a lifetime best group fired that it seems most people consider to be the group that reflects the accuracy of their guns.

http://22arg.com

Beau
06-27-2009, 09:02 PM
I don't know if windflags lie, but sighters sure do.

Fred K
06-28-2009, 06:43 AM
Beau
Didn't you know that sighters are always shot during the best conditions !
Fred K

Fred J
06-28-2009, 09:46 AM
I always get better scores using only my sighters.

harrydeneen
06-28-2009, 11:42 AM
Most missed shots are the shooters fault.. While just sitting back and watching all the diffrent conditions and targets over the last couple matches i have noticed the mistakes that causes the missed shots almost every time.. For instance if iam watching a shooter shooting a target from start to finish and shoots a bad 50 ot 25 you can usally tell exactly what happens.. The shooter might think they did not make a mistake but usally did... Most eveyone can tell a wild shot that can not be figured out.... These shots useally are equipment or ammo related... I can almost always 99% of the time know what i did wrong after the shot, but then its to late! But with all the good ammo around if you have more than your share of things happening you cant explain then its proably equipment .. Do flags lie? Only if you read them wrong !! Harry...:):):)

B. Harvey
06-28-2009, 12:25 PM
Hey Harry, glad you joined in. With 99% of my shots that go out at either 4 or 10, that would seem to indicate a increase or decrease in the wind speed.

This was what made me take a hard look at how flags respond to wind.
Until building the indicator, and also a new vane set up, I always thought my flags were very responsive. Building the indicator taught me that my flags were indeed slow, but when I built the new vane it showed me just how unresponsive my flags were.

So, is it so impossible to think windflags lie? If you have a flag that shows realtime changes, and another that is anywhere from 1-3 seconds behind, do you not feel that at that moment when the flag is not responding, that it is telling a lie?

It is no wonder everyone says it's better to shoot a push, it takes the flag that long to give a half way decent reading!
Or has no one thought about that?

If you think your flag is good, build a few light ones (1/3 the weight) that are balanced and then you will see how slow your current flags are.

The new vane/shaft/tail shows many many changes that my normal flag either never see's, or takes a while to see.

And if the flag does not see it, or takes a while to see it, then at the point of firing the bullet, the flag is lying.

Fred K
06-28-2009, 02:16 PM
I have seen a lot of different flags some slow, some faster but the fastest indicator of wind change I have seen is the tails. Want to have some fun try some old video tape for tails.

Fred K

B. Harvey
06-28-2009, 04:18 PM
Yes, vhs tape is very good for light winds.