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jackie schmidt
06-14-2009, 11:24 PM
Just got in from Seymour, (440 mile trip), it's late, but I will give some info on my 30BR effort in 10-shot Unlimited, Nationals Format.

I spent Friday breaking in the new 1-17 Krieger, and started with the same load that shoots quite well in my Bag Guns.

Right off the bat, it wanted to pop a shot. By that, I mean turn a 5-shot low one into a mid two with one shot. I tried several approaches, and finally decided the load was too hot. I finally reduced it down about 7-8 tenths less than I had been shooting. I nailed some really small five shot groups, and started working on ten shot groups.

No matter what I did, it seemed to be stuck in the mid two range, I could get five or six shots below .200, but by the time I would get to 10, it was sure as heck going to be a .260. This was taking my time and hitting the condition as best I know how.

It got late, so I put myself on the clock, and shot a 10 shot group. I had Tre measure it with his official measuring tool, and it went .252.

I decided that was what I would go with.

I openned up Sat morning with a nice .232, in a pretty nasty condition. I then shot a .312, then a .262. Really not too bad. But then, I made a shooter error and hung a shot out to a .440. I just blew it.

I could not nail a small enough group to get some of that back, nailed a .252 in match six, was sort of stuck in the "three's" all the rest of the way. Ended up with a .311 agg, I was really hoping for something in the .260 range.

This Morning, (Sunday), at 200 yards, the wind was blowing really hard, almost straight accross. I really suck on a straight across, and had about a ,.450 going when I just plain missed the push and had a shot go straight out, making the group a .910.

At least that was the biggest group I shot, I got a couple of "sixes", a "seven", and even won match 5 with a .523. I was in 5th place after 6 groups.

I shot another "six" in match seven, and stayed in 5th, but got caught in match eight, shot a .830 and dropped to 7th for the yardage. That put me in 10th for the overall Grand Agg.

Now, for the pertenent info. I do not think I really ever had a good tune on the barrel, but since this is my first effort with this, I just sort of left it alone. Here is what I mean.

Several times Saturday at 100, I caught the condition about as good as you could. I would start off with 3 or 4 shots really tight, but then it would just start getting big. Twice, I filled the moth ball completely up, with just a tad hanging out each side. Just a big round .320 glob. Now, keep in mind, in score, that would have been a 100 10x. But the groups still measured .300+. Not competitive.

Since the Rifle was sighted dead on the moth ball, all 80 shots, including the ones in the .440 group, would have been 10's. 90 percent would have been X's. But I still ended up with a .300+ agg.

I need to spend some time working with the tune on this barrel. I hate to do it, but I think I might have to treat it like a 6PPC and get the pressure up. I say this because the way the groups look, (big roung globs), makes me think that the load is too light. At least, that is the way a 6PPC acts.

It's going to take more than a few thousanths on the seating depth, or some other minor tuning tool, to get this thing where it has to be. I know that one of the big selling points of the 30 is you can (supposedly), shoot competivly at a mikld pressure. I think I am going to try a different approach and see what happens.

It's late, and I have to be in Palacios Tx in the morning to start a job. I will have my Lap Top with me, so if anybody wants to discuss all of this tomorrow evening, I will be in a Hotel Room on the Bay......jackie

Don
06-15-2009, 01:54 AM
I need to spend some time working with the tune on this barrel. I hate to do it, but I think I might have to treat it like a 6PPC and get the pressure up. I say this because the way the groups look, (big roung globs), makes me think that the load is too light. At least, that is the way a 6PPC acts.

It's going to take more than a few thousanths on the seating depth, or some other minor tuning tool, to get this thing where it has to be. I know that one of the big selling points of the 30 is you can (supposedly), shoot competivly at a mikld pressure. I think I am going to try a different approach and see what happens.

It's late, and I have to be in Palacios Tx in the morning to start a job. I will have my Lap Top with me, so if anybody wants to discuss all of this tomorrow evening, I will be in a Hotel Room on the Bay......jackie

I wonder if you can really ever get the same kind of a pressure curve with a 30br as a 6ppc, small case, barrel with a big hole, my guess is that they will both always act differently..................Don

alinwa
06-15-2009, 02:02 AM
Thank you Jackie :)

al

henrya
06-15-2009, 07:17 AM
Great report - can't wait to hear more and everyone's questions and opinions.

Henry

R. G. Robinett
06-15-2009, 07:26 AM
Good effort and report! :) RG

eww1350
06-15-2009, 08:47 AM
Jackie...I have been working with my two 30BRs one is an 18 twist...the other is a 17 twist...
I am not in your class when it comes to trigger pullin'
But I have found my 17 twist "will not" agg with the 112 grain 7 ogive bullets...
I would like to make a suggestion...if you are open for it...try the 118 grain 7 ogive bullet in your 17 twist...you can run the pressures up with it and it seems to respond better...when agging...
I hope to buy a 19 twist (cut rifle barrel) and push the 112 grain bullets up above 3,000 and see if that is the sweet spot...
I have a software program that recommends a 20 twist when the speed gets to 3,100 fps or above on the flatbase bullet...
Maybe a boattail bullet will be the hot ticket...it requires a slightly faster twist..

Just my two cents worth...

Eddie in Texas

Charles E
06-15-2009, 02:10 PM
Just a thought -- it is likely the evenness of the pressure curve that matters. Sometimes it is easy to get that by just running high pressures. There are other ways, though. A number of people have found that a lot of neck tension keeps the globs away -- like a .004 interference. While I don't happen to be one of them, I'm in a minority.

And yes, I did have a .30 BR rail for a while, along about the time we built Wilbur's. We never could get Wilbur's to shoot right, always one or two out. Mine shot better, but a growing interest in 1,000 yard shooting kinda stopped work. This in the days when 4227 was considered the powder, even for the .30BR. We now know better, perhaps.

I too always worked with 118s, but the 10-ogive

Maddog
06-15-2009, 02:59 PM
One out....more powder???? Duh. Try dropping the powder. I know of more than a few records have been shot with the 30BR using a "pooch" load. :eek: Specifically 115 grain and 33 grains of 4198 is responsible for one very recent record. VV130 works too. a case full of 322 will get you unreal results on some days.
The 112's are great bullets but recently all the winning is getting done by 115 & 118 grain bullets in 1:17 and 1:18 twist barrels.
Yes it shoots faster but the target speed of 2950 fps is the benchmark for a reason. :D
Nowadays with a tuner there really is no good reason to fool with amounts of powder. get it close and let your fingers do the tuning.:p
DA

Charles E
06-15-2009, 04:20 PM
Nowadays with a tuner there really is no good reason to fool with amounts of powder. get it close and let your fingers do the tuningWhen you have a real thick barrel, or it's equivalent, tuners can sometimes cause only problems, esp. if they are not completely solid in their mounting. I believe Jackie uses a 1.4 barrel epoxied into a 2-inch tube. Effectively a 2-inch diameter barrel. We've played with tensioned barrels in 3 and 5-inch, thick-walled tubes. None of these setups vibrate the way Varmint Al modeled, esp. in a rail gun.

FWIW

Don
06-15-2009, 06:00 PM
When you have a real thick barrel, or it's equivalent, tuners can sometimes cause only problems, esp. if they are not completely solid in their mounting. I believe Jackie uses a 1.4 barrel epoxied into a 2-inch tube. Effectively a 2-inch diameter barrel. We've played with tensioned barrels in 3 and 5-inch, thick-walled tubes. None of these setups vibrate the way Varmint Al modeled, esp. in a rail gun.

FWIW

Good point, Jackie did not mention using a tuner with this 30br rail barrel, which probably means that one was not used, but then maybe I am guessing wrong.

Also, I thought Jackie stopped using the epoxied sleeves/tubes when he started going to the larger 1.4 diameter barrels............again, maybe I am wrong.................Don

Pete Wass
06-15-2009, 07:24 PM
what Maddog had to say up there. I personally chased the "upper Nodes" with 30's for the past 5 or more years and have gone to dining with the "poochies". Sometimes less is more and no matter how much we would love to,we can't beat the wind.

I shot my VFS rifle with a Borden tuner on it for the first time this weekend. While I truly suck at VFS the rifle would shoot in one hole and with 3 different loads and two bullets using the same seating depth and .004 neck tension. To tune it I simply shot and saw the one bullet of verticle the barrel has always had. 1/4 turn of the tuner took them into one small round hole and it stayed that way for all three days I shot it. Our woild has changed! :)

HBR rifles next.

jackie schmidt
06-15-2009, 09:35 PM
My Rail is set up with a standard 1.450 barrel, the block has a non metalic sleeve that isolates the barrel.

The load I ended up with in the heat of the day was 32.8 grns of 4198. My load I have been shooting in my Sporter and HV is 33.8 grns behind the BIB 112,


The 32.8 load is probably going out at about 2950, I figure this because the 33.8 is exactly 3000.

One poster mentioned 'records" shot. Well, even 25 X's are not an indication of a combinations agging capability in group. As I said before, I had several targets that were 100 10X, and the groups measured .320+. And, as I said before, every shot I fired, all 80 at 100 yards, were 10's, including that ugly .440. So, hitting X's is not an indication of a combinations agging capability.


So, untill you have sat down at a Registered Group match with a 30, and seen just what it will do agg wise, don't give me that old "it will shoot in one hole" junk. You might be in for a rude awakening.

As for this myth that a 30 will stay in tune come heck or high water, well, my load that has shot so well in my bag guns started popping shots when the temperature hit 95 degrees. I backed it down to keep it stable, and had to settle for the big round globs.

The reason a lot of you think these things stay in tune is because you still hit a ten, or even an X. But remember, if you hit an X on the top of the mothball, and one on the bottom, you are in the "threes".

Shooting this past week end was a big eye opener for me. I have a lot of work to do in order to make this combination competitive in the Registered Group Arena, especially Unlimited........jackie

goodgrouper
06-15-2009, 10:01 PM
My Rail is set up with a standard 1.450 barrel, the block has a non metalic sleeve that isolates the barrel.

The load I ended up with in the heat of the day was 32.8 grns of 4198. My load I have been shooting in my Sporter and HV is 33.8 grns behind the BIB 112,


The 32.8 load is probably going out at about 2950, I figure this because the 33.8 is exactly 3000.

One poster mentioned 'records" shot. Well, even 25 X's are not an indication of a combinations agging capability in group. As I said before, I had several targets that were 100 10X, and the groups measured .320+. And, as I said before, every shot I fired, all 80 at 100 yards, were 10's, including that ugly .440. So, hitting X's is not an indication of a combinations agging capability.


So, untill you have sat down at a Registered Group match with a 30, and seen just what it will do agg wise, don't give me that old "it will shoot in one hole" junk. You might be in for a rude awakening.

As for this myth that a 30 will stay in tune come heck or high water, well, my load that has shot so well in my bag guns started popping shots when the temperature hit 95 degrees. I backed it down to keep it stable, and had to settle for the big round globs.

The reason a lot of you think these things stay in tune is because you still hit a ten, or even an X. But remember, if you hit an X on the top of the mothball, and one on the bottom, you are in the "threes".

Shooting this past week end was a big eye opener for me. I have a lot of work to do in order to make this combination competitive in the Registered Group Arena, especially Unlimited........jackie




I appreciate the honesty Jackie. I know how bad everybody wanted to pin their hopes to the 30br as the new 6ppc for the 21st century and to tell it like it happened is admirable.

Seems like the 30br's claim to fame was how well it stayed in tune but from what a few posters have said, it would seem like it has to be "tweeked" just like a ppc. I think as long as a cartridge uses the four basic components, we are going to have to deal with this problem. There just ain't no magic pixie dust.

I also agree with you on the score vs. group thing. 10 x's can be a .3" group which isn't going to be all that great in group matches.

Pete Wass
06-15-2009, 10:04 PM
Have you ever considered moving to a cooler climate in the summer? ;)

I think you are right about some of this stuff. I have observed my rifles going out of tune in the heat. I don't often shoot in weather over 85* and usually it is in the 70's but days when the heat gets up there I know my rifles don't shoot as well as they do in the cool. Of course it is tough to tune in the hot when it does not exist where one lives :(.

I do take a bit of exception with your comments about scores. A rifle out of tune very much won't shoot nearly as well as you indicate, from my experience. If one of em gets very far out, 10's become difficult, never mind the exes. There is also something called conditions that work against not only tune but the shooter. Shooting a group in one hole on a paper is not the same as trying to place the bullet in the hole in five different places on a paper.

While I have only competed in one registered group match, my 30 BR shot a .264 agg with a good bullet of verticle in it I wasn't able to get out with what I had to work with. It hung in for 4 th place that day regardless. Beginner's Luck; perhaps but I find shooting VFS WAAAAAY more difficult than I did shooting that one agg. :o

Charles E
06-16-2009, 06:44 AM
I'm going to tell a story first. Jackie, you can skip to the stars below for a tidbit, but I think you probably already know that, too.

For several years, my favorite match was the NBRSA South Eastern Regional 300 yard match at Charlotte. One year I skipped the 1,000 yard nationals in order to shoot Charlotte.

Now, I had a 1,000 yard Heavy Gun that would shoot lights out. At 100 yards, you just watched the hole get a little larger -- sometimes. Sometimes the hole didn't even get larger. This with a 187 grain bullet at 3,100. It wasn't return to battery, but was a dual-pedestal bags, which is close.

Anyway, I used it at Charlotte, at 300. I came in near the bottom in the Unlimited. After the Unlimited was over, Dave Tooley came up tome & said, "Why were you shooting when you did?" I thought about that, & didn't know what he was seeing that I was missing. Heavy Varmint was next. I'd been shooting the right-to-left in Unlimited, and decided I'd shoot the left-to-right in HV, since I was obviously missing something in the R-L wind.

I won the HV.

Moral #1: There is no "technological way" to buy a win. Even that bullet with a .520 BC going off at 3,100 fps won't shoot through the wind. I do believe that 1,000 yard gun could win a short-range unlimited, but it would be just as much work as with a PPC, and would depend on having just as good a barrel and just as good bullets -- and just as good condition doping.

Moral #2: What works in one type of benchrest *may* mostly carry over to another type, but you better pay attention to the differences.

So, while the score match results are not completely irrelevant to group shooting, it sure isn't 1:1.

* * *

Our work with the .30s shooting groups has shown they by in large respond to what I think of as a heavy preload. Whether you get that by jamming the bullets -- marks as least as long as wide -- or by jumping them .020 or so with a lot of neck tension -- or both the heavy tension and a jam, the do seem to favor this "preload." Of course, as soon as I say this, someone will find a barrel that goes the other way, but I'd certainly move in that direction at the start, esp. with the faster-burning powders.

I do think that as the pressure peak (& the bulk of the whole curve) of the fast burning powders occurs so early, determining the best bullet neck tension & seating is more important for good grouping -- the difference between globs and holes.

FWIW

David Apple
06-16-2009, 08:30 AM
With all due respect:


"So, untill you have sat down at a Registered Group match with a 30, and seen just what it will do agg wise, don't give me that old "it will shoot in one hole" junk. You might be in for a rude awakening."

Last year at the IBS 200-300 Nationals at Weikert, PA. The winning agg was .2878. In second place a LIGHT30BR posting a .3012:eek: and in third was another 30BR with a .3052. :p A few years back, the same light gun won and second place was a 30BR as well.
Yes, these were merely bag guns and it wasn't a 100-200 yard match but I would venture to say that many had a rude awakening.
For what its worth, neither BR shooter changed loads and were shooting 115 grain bullets.

David

333smitty
06-16-2009, 10:09 AM
With all due respect:


"So, untill you have sat down at a Registered Group match with a 30, and seen just what it will do agg wise, don't give me that old "it will shoot in one hole" junk. You might be in for a rude awakening."

Last year at the IBS 200-300 Nationals at Weikert, PA. The winning agg was .2878. In second place a LIGHT30BR posting a .3012:eek: and in third was another 30BR with a .3052. :p A few years back, the same light gun won and second place was a 30BR as well.
Yes, these were merely bag guns and it wasn't a 100-200 yard match but I would venture to say that many had a rude awakening.
For what its worth, neither BR shooter changed loads and were shooting 115 grain bullets.

David

Were the temps at these matches around 105 ??? :eek:

Pete Wass
06-16-2009, 02:39 PM
that in extremes, any rifle will go out of tune, be it extreme cold or extreme heat. Perhaps for some folks 105 isn't extreme but for the majority of us, we may see it one or two days out of 365 and not many more over 90. Probably we who don't experience those extremes shouldn't opine here. ;)

Not many weeks before Shelley Davidson passed he told me in an email exchange that he had believed at one time that the 30 BR did not go out of tune but had changed his mind. I spect he knew of what he was speaking.