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tate
05-18-2009, 03:04 PM
Well I dont know how this is goin to work out but i'm thinking that there is going to be hell to pay.Well I decided to buy a benchrest rifle off from this site a week ago an everything was goin great until today.Got a call from the guy that I bought it from stating that it was now in the hands of the virginia state police,because of the way he was shipping it.He was tring to shipp it directly to me instead of goin through a FFL which I thought was legal just had to regerster the weapon once you got it so I guees that im to blame to,ignorance of the law dont count on this one.So I guees what im asking is do you all think im screwed,by that im meaning will I ever see my rifle.I havent been contacted by any of the law inforcement offices yet an dont know if I will.An he also told me that he got busted for tring to shipp powder an primers with out a hasmat,which I know some of the folks on here have done an got away with.Should be hearing from him tonight after he goes an see's the police an gets everything worked out.I hope.

Cheechako
05-18-2009, 03:39 PM
tate

I'd say that the other guy is screwed. And he owes you a refund. Of course, if he gets in big trouble and refuses to refund, then you're both screwed. I hope you sent him a US Postal Money Order.

I collect cartridges and guys are constantly wanting to send live cartridges to me through the USPS. I always tell them, "DONT DO IT." You might get away with it 100 times but it only takes getting caught one time.:eek:

The same goes for guys wanting to send firearms across State lines.

JMHO

Good Luck.

Ray

tate
05-18-2009, 03:51 PM
I did use us postal money order.Thank goodness for that.

vmthtr in green
05-18-2009, 03:53 PM
It is on the shipper to make sure he ships legally. Without an FFL to receive, he broke the law. You will probably get screwed with no refund, the rifle is probably forfeit.

Mike

Tony Shankle
05-18-2009, 04:41 PM
If you bought a rifle from someone off of this site I doubt very seriously you will get screwed!

While I certainly don't suggest or condone anything illegal, if he had your friends/dealers FFL it would have been a fairly easy mistake for an old fart to ship to the wrong address. :rolleyes:

alinwa
05-18-2009, 04:58 PM
I've amended this post, addendum at bottom. I've left my post unchanged in the interest of continuity (and to teach myself not to spout without backup!! :D BUT IT'S GOT SOME BAD INFORMATION!)



Original post:


There is more to this story :rolleyes: something Whacky-Poooh here. It's perfectly legal to ship guns between private parties without an FFL. I've often shipped guns to and from dealers for work, and to friends without an FFL.

When a party wishes to hunt or to compete in another state he can ship his guns ahead to a friend or family member. You can send your firearms ahead to a hunting lodge or to a guide service. (point is, it doesn't have to be family)

Now, the question of how you perform a "sale" or a transaction is up to the parties involved..... but there have been a lot of rifles given to friends, guides, private parties from one end of the states to another. IMO there is NO FFL NEEDED for private party sale of long guns.

Unless someone can show me a cite, show me clear ATF verbiage to the effect that long guns can't be sold privately WITHOUT AN FFL I can't believe all this. STATE ruling maybe??

Someone please SHOW ME where it's illegal for two consenting adults to trade money for longguns anywhere in America (except maybe the states of Mass and NY!!)



And about ammo..... there ain't NO rules......I can buy loaded ammo from Cabela's or Midway fer cryin' out loud! You tellin' me none a ya's have ever ordered ammunition?


http://www.att-tactical.com/att_nfa.html

Cheechako, scroll down to section "federal gun laws" to read "The 1986 law made the purchase of ammunition and gun components by mail legal, as it had been prior to the Gun Control Act of 1968."


Waiting for correction........

al



WELLLL, thanks to the posts by the others.... HERE'S SOME CORRECTION :)

ATF website link below will answer all questions posed. (and show some of my information to be flawed...)

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm


Sorry tate, please accept my apologies for dragging this thread off on a tangent :o in your case I think you'll have to just let it play out. The act of shipping/receiving seems pretty well spelled out by the BATFE.

Chisolm
05-18-2009, 05:13 PM
Al,
The loaded ammo is a HAZ-MAT/DOT issue not FFL issue.

James

crb
05-18-2009, 05:29 PM
It boggles the mind how much this gets discussed and how many people have it wrong.

Unfortunately the people that have it wrong are very persuasive :rolleyes:

Big Al
05-18-2009, 05:43 PM
al is right about the firearm transfers between private parties. It does not require and ffl transfer. On the ammo shipping. The post office has it's own rules and there is a no, no with the post office clearly posted in each post office. If you are talking about handgun transfers and shipping through the post office, that's a different kettle of fish. Again the post office does not allow for shipping, period. You have to go through a private carrier.

Why would you get a call from the cops? You didn't ship. Besides this is a federal issue, not left up to locale cops.

rrendina
05-18-2009, 06:18 PM
The state of California requires ALL sales of firearms, including long guns to be through a FFL, pay the DRO's and wait 10 days. You can "give" only to/from Parent-Son-Daughter. For every one else it's a transfer. There may be other states with restrictions also.

tate
05-18-2009, 06:19 PM
Thanks guys for the replies.All I know is what I was told that he went to a ups store an had it boxed up with the bolt in another box,an when he was asked what was in the box an told the I guees thats when all hell broke loose.I know when I shipped my other rifle out to hart I was told that I could shipp it to them with out a ffl.

Cheechako
05-18-2009, 06:20 PM
Al

Firearms and ammo are two different things. And buying and shipping are likewise two different things.

You can buy ammo and/or components via any method you choose. Bullets and Empty brass can go USPS. You cannot ship loaded ammo, primed cases, primers, or powder via USPS. They go UPS Ground ORM-D only. Primers and/or powder requires a HAZMAT fee, but ironically loaded ammo does not.

You cannot ship loaded ammo, primers, primed cases or powder overseas (including Canada). Everything has to be inert. Even shipping inert to and from Canada is still questionable because Canada Post prohibits "Inert Munitions" and they refuse to define what "Inert Munitions" are. Some countries prohibit certain bullets (AP, API, etc).

You can buy rifles and shotguns by any meathod you choose (mail, Internet, phone, etc). Rifles and shotguns can be shipped via USPS and UPS across State lines to yourself (hunting, etc) or to a gunsmith for work. But, I've always understood that you could not ship to another person. If I'm wrong about that it would be great. When I wanted to send my son some rifles, to Alaska, I was told by the PHX office of BATF&E that I could only send them to an FFL in Alaska.

Can you quote me the BATF&E regulations that specifically address shipping a rifle or shotgun to another individual?

This comes up more often than moly vs naked. You'd think we were all clear on it by now.

Ray

Jay, Idaho
05-18-2009, 06:21 PM
Al,

The site you referenced is NOT a BATF website. It is owned by ATT Tactical, whoever that is.
I'd go to the BATF.gov website and read real close on interstate shipment of firearms.
I won't get into a pissing contest over this but I think it is best to only ship TO current FFL holders and do not have a problem doing that.

We have too much fun with our rifles to get busted from doing something dumb that has no upside to choosing that route.

Opinions of one,

Jay, Idaho

P.S. Everybody on here should have read "Unintended Consequences" by John Ross, at least one time. Buy two copies and have one loaned out to friends as much as possible.

blades
05-18-2009, 06:32 PM
could have sworn that across state lines purchase requires ffl on recieving end (any firearm) since 1968. Depending on your state law, instate purchase may not. Your state law may require you to ship through a ffl also. You may ship any firearm to a gunsmith for repair or custom work and does not require a ffl to be shipped back to you. Lately there have been some gray areas on the smith end as to weather or not he/she must have a class 2 ffl for smithing work, some of this ATF some IRS. Loaded ammo does/did not require hazmat but powder or primers due and can not be packaged together, if I remember correctly 4 8lb jugs is max for one package. powder and primers are classed as explosives, loaded ammo was not. Some of what I remember may have changed with 911 and Homeland security as I closed shop about 1990

Cheechako
05-18-2009, 06:33 PM
Here is exactly what the ATF 'Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide' (ATF P 5300.4) says:

(B8) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier?
A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]

Cheechako
05-18-2009, 07:10 PM
I'd guess that the guy who was shipping the rifle to Tate had done the same thing before and had not been caught. As I said, you only have to get caught once.

It's surprising to me that even some licensed dealers will skirt the law, risking their license, their livihood, and their freedom. Some years ago a gunsmith, lets say he lived in Washington;), had a rifle I was interested in. I called him and asked how much he wanted, etc, etc. I told him I might be interested and that I'd get the local gun shop to send a copy of their FFL. He said, "Oh, don't worry about that. I'll send it directly to you. If anyone asks, you tell them it was your rifle that you had sent to me repairs." Like I was going to lie to cover his a$$. No way Jose. Leavenworth is too cold in the winter for me.:rolleyes:

Ray

Lynn
05-18-2009, 07:38 PM
On the bright side atleast neither the buyer or seller lives in California.
Lynn

Dusty Stevens
05-18-2009, 07:40 PM
has to be an FFL on one end or the other, but not both.

Cheechako
05-18-2009, 08:41 PM
Dusty

Are you positive of that? I'd check the regs. Call a dealer in another state and ask if he'll ship a rifle to you.

Ray

Tony Shankle
05-18-2009, 08:51 PM
Al,
P.S. Everybody on here should have read "Unintended Consequences" by John Ross, at least one time. Buy two copies and have one loaned out to friends as much as possible.

Totally agree Jay, I gave away 5 copies after reading it the first time. Great Book and a must read!

Lynn
05-18-2009, 08:55 PM
Ray
I just bought a Rimrock action from Jim Borden and in California it has to go to a FFL license holder from a FFL license holder.Once it is at my FFL holders house the paper work needs to be done before the 10 day mandatory wait even starts.If my FFL gets it in on a monday and I don't do the paperwork until the following saturday the 10 day waiting period would start on that saturday and not the previous monday.
Once the waiting period is over I can send it back to Jim using the regular postal service.
Any and all guns sold to californians go FFL to FFL.
To get a 50 bmg action into California even if it is going to be used for a 50 spotter tracer or 510 DTC round is all but impossible.No FFL on this end wants anything to do with anything.
Lynn

Cheechako
05-18-2009, 09:22 PM
Lynn

Jim Borden is a nit-picker. Always worried about little details.;) Tell him to send it to your house and everything will be OK. Or, have him ship everything to me and I'll be sure to give it to you next time you catch me. :rolleyes:

Ray

david dumas
05-18-2009, 09:27 PM
[QUOTE=alinwa;506298]There is more to this story :rolleyes: something Whacky-Poooh here. It's perfectly legal to ship guns between private parties without an FFL. I've often shipped guns to and from dealers for work, and to friends without an FFL.

When a party wishes to hunt or to compete in another state he can ship his guns ahead to a friend or family member. You can send your firearms ahead to a hunting lodge or to a guide service. (point is, it doesn't have to be family)

Now, the question of how you perform a "sale" or a transaction is up to the parties involved..... but there have been a lot of rifles given to friends, guides, private parties from one end of the states to another. IMO there is NO FFL NEEDED for private party sale of long guns.

Unless someone can show me a cite, show me clear ATF verbiage to the effect that long guns can't be sold privately WITHOUT AN FFL I can't believe all this. STATE ruling maybe??

Someone please SHOW ME where it's illegal for two consenting adults to trade money for longguns anywhere in America (except maybe the states of Mass and NY!!)



And about ammo..... there ain't NO rules......I can buy loaded ammo from Cabela's or Midway fer cryin' out loud! You tellin' me none a ya's have ever ordered ammunition?


Al,
You need to check with the ATF on what you think is right because your way off base and the ATF ain't who you want to monkey with, they've got a book that explains a lot of this shipping BS, (ATF publication 5300.4), take it from me they're nice people till ya piss them off then life is living hell,,,,,,

the wind is my friend,,,,,,,,,,,

DD

Lynn
05-18-2009, 09:33 PM
Ray
The ATF quit sending out the big manuals this year and instead put it all on a CD for your computor.The last book I have shows alot of the smaller rural states having less than 1 page of regulations.

California all by itself has 58 or 60 pages of rules and New York is a close second.

I shoot with these guys on a regular basis but the rules are changing so fast they want all of the details well in advance before they will fax a license to anyone.We are paying $100 for a Ruger 10/22 transfer out here now.
Lynn
P.S. You should have shot with us at The Mirage Nationals.

Dusty Stevens
05-18-2009, 10:10 PM
if the gun has never been registered it must pass from an FFL to owner with all checks according to state laws. so let's say I buy a brand new action from brunos. he ships it to my FFL and he does the paperwork on me. then I need to send it to a gunsmith for work. I ship directly to him, he logs it in, fixes it, logs it out and send it directly to me. so FFL on one end of used guns, FFL on all ends of new guns until the owner passes the paperwork. this does not apply to Ca, or any other left wing inspired state or any other country with customs involved. if ever in doubt ship it to an FFL only and let them log it so they take the heat on the laws. I promise they will know the law if they do this alot.

Jay, Idaho
05-18-2009, 10:39 PM
An FFL in CA can legally (CA regulations) accept a rifle or action from a non-FFL in another state. Of course, a lot of FFL licensees are a bit fuzzy on the regs or prefer to only operate FFL to FFL so it becomes a discretionary thing with each CA Dealer. That is their choice and their right. They lose fees but probably sleep better.

Jay, Idaho

alinwa
05-19-2009, 12:34 AM
if the gun has never been registered it must pass from an FFL to owner with all checks according to state laws. so let's say I buy a brand new action from brunos. he ships it to my FFL and he does the paperwork on me. then I need to send it to a gunsmith for work. I ship directly to him, he logs it in, fixes it, logs it out and send it directly to me. so FFL on one end of used guns, FFL on all ends of new guns until the owner passes the paperwork. this does not apply to Ca, or any other left wing inspired state or any other country with customs involved. if ever in doubt ship it to an FFL only and let them log it so they take the heat on the laws. I promise they will know the law if they do this alot.

Dusty,

Firearms here in America do not need to be registered EXCEPT in certain states and municipal areas.

If you believe that there's a federal "registration" database where all new guns are listed you'll have to show me a cite.

Logging a new action via Form 4473 is not registration. It IS NOT accessible by our government without a search warrant.

If I'm wrong, show me please. :)


ALL new actions whether sold in state or out of state must be logged by a licensed dealer and may ONLY be sold through a licensed dealer.


al

alinwa
05-19-2009, 12:45 AM
I was uninformed. I think that you can find all that you need to know here.

It looks as though it IS NOT LEGAL to transfer long guns across state lines without an FFL on one end or the other.

This info is from the BATFE website.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm



B. UNLICENSED PERSONS

(B1) To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA? [Back]

A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]




It's the last paragraph in B16 that could get sticky......

(B16) What record-keeping procedures should be followed when two private individuals want to engage in a firearms transaction? [Back]

When a transaction takes place between private (unlicensed) persons who reside in the same State, the Gun Control Act (GCA) does not require any record keeping. A private person may sell a firearm to another private individual in his or her State of residence and, similarly, a private individual may buy a firearm from another private person who resides in the same State. It is not necessary under Federal law for a Federal firearms licensee (FFL) to assist in the sale or transfer when the buyer and seller are "same-State" residents. Of course, the transferor/seller may not knowingly transfer a firearm to someone who falls within any of the categories of prohibited persons contained in the GCA. See 18 U.S. C. 922(g) and (n). However, as stated above, there are no GCA-required records to be completed by either party to the transfer.

There may be State or local laws or regulations that govern this type of transaction. Contact State Police units or the office of your State Attorney General for information on any such requirements.

Please note that if a private person wants to obtain a firearm from a private person who resides in another State, the firearm will have to be shipped to an FFL in the buyer's State. The FFL will be responsible for record keeping. See also Question B3.


I hope this is helpful


My first post contains inaccurate information.


al

lefty o
05-19-2009, 01:19 AM
you can also ship a gun to yourself in another state (you must be the one to open the package), this is how you send a rifle ahead for a hunting trip. if shipping to someone else, the reciever needs an FFL.

Dick Grosbier
05-19-2009, 05:47 AM
Lynn

Jim Borden is a nit-picker. Always worried about little details.;) Tell him to send it to your house and everything will be OK. Or, have him ship everything to me and I'll be sure to give it to you next time you catch me. :rolleyes:

Ray

He may be a Nit Picker but he is running a fair sized business and has his whole families livelihood on the line. You will not find him intentionally breaking any Federal laws or even stretching them.

Dick

Dusty Stevens
05-19-2009, 05:56 AM
ok Al. shouldn't have said registered. what I meant was the paperwork you must fill out that makes sure you're not a felon or on drugs. the serial # is on there and must be turned over to the ATF when asked for or when the FFL goes out of business. not really a registration yet.

Lynn
05-19-2009, 06:37 AM
Al
I think we need to kow which states are involved here.Like I said some have almost no federal rules at all while california and new york take up the lions share of the book.
Also I think the states regulations are whats the problem here.He was talking about the local police and not the ATF.He might have broken some Interstate Commerce Law or a shipping regulation.
We don't have federal registration in place but I'm pretty sure in california we have state registration because they are always giving us deadlines to complete our registrations by and outright bans even on ammuition.Its a pretty lousy state gun wise.
You should move here and help us out.You could be known as AlinCa.
Lynn

Jay, Idaho
05-19-2009, 07:50 AM
Al
You should move here and help us out.You could be known as AlinCa.
Lynn

I like "AlinCal" but I'm pretty sure it ain't never going to happen. It just has a ring to it, "AlinCal", "AlinCal".

Jay, Idaho

Cheechako
05-19-2009, 09:06 AM
He may be a Nit Picker but he is running a fair sized business and has his whole families livelihood on the line. You will not find him intentionally breaking any Federal laws or even stretching them.

Dick

Dick

My comments were tongue in cheek. They were aimed at my friend Lynn. That's why I used the winking smiley face. Jim is a great guy who, I know, would never even bend a law or regulation, much less break one.

Alinwa

If you're still here, I'll be the first to sympathise with you. I hate all the useless rules and regulations as much or more than you or anyone else. There was a time, when I was a lot younger, when I would even break a few in disgust and contempt. But times, they are a changing. It pays anyone with a firearm and ammunition to be aware of what the rules are and only bend or break them at their peril. I'm too old to be someones boy-toy in a Federal lock-up.:eek:

Ray

Ray

tate
05-19-2009, 10:48 AM
Well still havent heard anything yet.Im hoping to hear something today from the guy.If not I dont know what my next move should be,I was hoping to be able to get into this sport but its not looking good right now.

Dennis Sorensen
05-19-2009, 11:13 AM
My next move would be to talk to the guy and ask for my money back. I hope that works out.

tate
05-19-2009, 03:40 PM
Well just talked to my guy an all is good,althought he had to pay a 250.00 fine,which I told him that I would help pay since it is kind of my fault for not realy knowing what the laws are.I guees that it could of been worst I could have my rifle in the hands of the law enforcement oficers an never see it an be out of the money that I spent on it.Hopefully everyone that has read this will learn from what has happened here by not following the laws,because it could have been alot worst on both ends of the deal.I know i've learned.

Lew
05-19-2009, 05:33 PM
As I read this thread it proved to me one thing about people. No matter how many times a topic is discussed everybody is IGNORANT about the Law of how to ship rifles. We then plead I'm innocent I didn't know. I say B***S*** to all of the concerned parties and others.
There are posts about this issue almost everyday on some gun site. People wake up you are your own worst enemy. And when the anti's see this type of stuff they say I told you so. and We LOSE....
Read and ask questions so you understand the rules and don't get your self into real trouble.

brian roberts
05-19-2009, 07:18 PM
the last eight words of your post, please???:D ;)