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Pete Wass
05-09-2009, 12:45 PM
Went to the range again today and a well known Score shooter showed up shortly after I arrived. I was busy setting everything up and when I finally looked at his rifle I saw one of Jim Borden's tuners on it. I became excited to see what would transpire.

The gent eventually came up with a load he wanted to try. The barrel is one that has been a teaser as I recall. He shot a three shot group and had a dandy .750 cloverleaf. After we confered on which way to go, etc, he decided on a quarter of a turn clockwise. The next three went into a slightly elongated hole which will measure small.

He then changed bullet brands and shot a group. A big inch group on the verticle side of things. We confired again and he moved the tuner another quarter clockwise. Result: a very small hole in testy conditions. I am assuming there was some luck involved here but perhas not. It wa a very interesting situation and very educational. Is it always that easy?

alinwa
05-09-2009, 04:30 PM
The first time is always easy..... maybe TOO easy and definitely interesting and educational...... but afterwards the guilt...... :o


:D

These new tuners on the Begg's/Lambert/Borden design are certainly easier than the old "flopping off the end of the barrel" designs. They work exactly the same way, just easier. 'WAYYY easier.


IMO



al

AVanGorder
05-09-2009, 05:01 PM
Pete,

The easiest way for me to say it is that my new gun, currently being built by Borden, will also have his tuner on it.

Adrian

savet06
05-09-2009, 05:05 PM
My tuner (a floppy off the end type) is definitely not that easy to tune. I have tried the 1/2 turn or 1/4 turn and shoot, but my groups went from crap (a little over .6") to mediocre (high .3's). Of course this was also before I found that it likes a bit more neck tension and a deeper jam (now regularly at 0.2's).
I am going to head to the range soon and test it out with its new found consistency, and see if I can make it just that much better.I love experimenting with this stuff!
Mike

Pete Wass
05-09-2009, 05:46 PM
is not long ago, many people were nay sayers and some just flat out against tuners. Now that we have them and folks can see the benifit and ease of use, they become or will soon become comonplace. I don't understand how folks wouldn't think they work when they have been used successfully for years. It's amazing how skeptical humans can be and how much some want to cling to the past. The question now is, what will be next? There will surely be something, eh?

jackie schmidt
05-09-2009, 06:40 PM
I am assuming this was at 200 yards.........jackie

Dave Coots
05-09-2009, 08:29 PM
Might have been 300 yards??

DaVE

Lynn
05-09-2009, 10:30 PM
Savet06
If your floppy off the end tuner isn't doing as described it isn't the right weight.All of the tuners my father and I use will work as described.

I heard that the non floppy rigid in from the end tuners are slower to adjust from Jim Borden but I have yet to try one.

Pete
If Bill Calfee says it works ignore what the naysayers have to say.He has proven them wrong so many times its ridiculous.All it takes is one day at the range and anyone can see the benifits.
Waterboy

Roy in NC
05-10-2009, 06:31 AM
Except....Calfee says the tuners behind the muzzle don't work.

Lynn
05-10-2009, 09:17 AM
Except....Calfee says the tuners behind the muzzle don't work.

Roy
I think you are misquoting what Bill has said.I think he said the weight behind the muzzle won't stop the muzzle.The guys like Jim Borden and Gene Beggs are not interested in stopping there muzzles.They are instead using the tuner as a fix/aid for when there pet load starts going vertical on them in the middle of a match.I don't think Jim wants a tuner that is that sensitive as he just wants to smooth out the little imperfections that take place.I most certainly could have read his e-mails wrong however as I have certainly done so in the past.

To test this for yourself take a fishing pole and get it producing a standing wave by shaking the handle the same way each time.You will see that the tip goes up and down.
Now attach a clothes-pin back from the tip and repeat the test.You will see that no matter how many clothes-pins you add the muzzle is always whipping up and down.

To understand what Bill Calfee is saying you need the same fishing pole and clothes-pins but in addition you need a pencil and some tape.
Set up your standing wave just like before.Now tape your pencil to the fishing poles tip and repeat the test while hanging more and more clothes-pins on the pencil.This represents the tuners weight out in front of the muzzle.
You will quickly see the wave shift so the original tip of the fishing pole appears to be "Stopped".
The 13 original "Funny People" the infamous 12 the naysayers and the rest of the people who only come here to criticise have never used a tuner or done the test.Once they use a tuner or do what Bill Calfee has said 500 times,They become instant experts who have actually created something new that Bill Calfee hasn't seen in his 30 plus years of using tuners on a daily basis.
Thes are truly remarkable people.Out here we call them stubborn or hardheaded but they do see the light once they try so all hope is not lost.
Waterboy

Boyd Allen
05-10-2009, 09:44 AM
Lynn,
Do you know of anyone that has "stopped the muzzle" of a centerfire rifle?

Lynn
05-10-2009, 10:13 AM
Boyd
I talked with Eric Stanton abou this at the 600 yd nationals a couple weeks ago.He shoots 22's as well as 100,200 and 600,1000 yard benchrest.
The 22's can go 50,000 rounds on a barrel so it is easier to figure out if your muzzle is what Bill Calfee calls "stopped".
On the centerfire rifles it isn't possible to stop your muzzle with a rearward mounted tuner so none of those guys has stopped there muzzle or has the chance too.
On the guns with the tuner beyond the muzzle the only person I have read about who thinks his muzzle is stopped is a 1,000 yard shooter.
If you chronograph a pile of 22 long rifle ammo of the quality Bill Calfee uses in his guns you will quickly see typical shortrange centerfire ammo is lacking.
I am hopeful the bickering on this website about Bill Calfee being crazy,stupid or an outright idiot will soon die down now that The Undisputed Best Centerfire Shooter on Planet Earth Bar None has chosen Bill to build him a rifle.We are now done with the earth is flat crowd and hopefully can now explore what Bill has said all along.
Waterboy

Boyd Allen
05-10-2009, 10:22 AM
Lynn,
When did Jackie say that he had his muzzle stopped? I must have missed that one. BTW, in case anyone has forgotten, I have a couple of tuners, think they are a great idea, agree that Bill is a marvelous RF gunsmith, but disagree with the proposition that a CF muzzle can be "stopped", especially in the case of short range Benchrest rifles that are built to a #10 1/2 weight limit.
Boyd

quandary
05-10-2009, 10:41 AM
To test this for yourself take a fishing pole and get it producing a standing wave by shaking the handle the same way each time.You will see that the tip goes up and down.
Now attach a clothes-pin back from the tip and repeat the test.You will see that no matter how many clothes-pins you add the muzzle is always whipping up and down.

To understand what Bill Calfee is saying you need the same fishing pole and clothes-pins but in addition you need a pencil and some tape.
Set up your standing wave just like before.Now tape your pencil to the fishing poles tip and repeat the test while hanging more and more clothes-pins on the pencil.This represents the tuners weight out in front of the muzzle.
You will quickly see the wave shift so the original tip of the fishing pole appears to be "Stopped".



__________________________________________________ ______________


If I understand all this correctly, everyone is right, mostly. Calfee says, in order to move the node to the muzzle, one's tuner must extend beyond it. He's right. He says the bullet must exit at the node to have an accurate rifle, I don't believe he's right about that. All you need for an accurate rifle is to have the bullet exit the muzzle at the same place in it's vibration cycle every time. Both types of tuners seem to accomplish this. What might be a difference is that one type might have a broader band of being in tune, if you get my drift. With the beyond the muzzle variety, does the muzzle spend more time at the node, than the behind the muzzle variety spends at it's optimum exit point? Did that make any sense?:confused:

jackie schmidt
05-10-2009, 10:44 AM
I have never said I managed to stop a muzzle on one of my Rifles.

If you remember, I spent some time a while back building a rig as per instructions, did everything I was told, and it didn't work. I was then told, something to the affect, " we have now changed the prodedure". I sent the stuff to another shooter and said to heck with it.

Mike:
I have my own ideas about tuners and achieving the kind of accuracy that is required in Centerfire Benchrest. You can take a tuner and make any Rifle shoot better. But, can you make it competitive??.

I think there is a lot more to achieving sub .200 accuracy than simply controling the barrels vibrations. If it was just about barrel vibrations, then you could take any chambering avalailable, with match quality bullets, and make it shoot at a sub .200 level.

I have tried several times to just stick given load in one of my Competition Rifles and work with nothing but the tuner. It just doesn't work.

Sure, I can get it shooting pretty good. But competitive?? No.

Here is my theory. Every particular bullet-barrel-powder combination has a specific load that it likes. I think it has to do with the efficiency of the burn, and where the initial pressure spike occurs.

I try to find this, and then keep the Rifle shooting with the tuner throughout the week end.. Mind you, we are talking small variations here. A bullet hole of verticle might not seem like much to 99 9 1/10 of the population, but it is a killer in 100-200 Yard Benchrest.

It would be great just to stick 29.0 grns of 133 in a case, tune it with the tuner, and be done. But, it just doesn't work that way.

I have seen many proponents of various ideas, and how they have found the solution, and are willing to sell the product. I have also seen these very same people, at matches, struggling like everyone else. Well, if it works so damed good, why are you in 35th place.

As for Tony B and his aquiring a Calfee Rifle for Rimfire. If I were to start shooting Rimfire, I would do the same thing..........jackie

Lynn
05-10-2009, 11:07 AM
Boyd
If the posts are still there? It is in the centerfire forum on a post started by Bill Calfee.
It was probaly 3 or 4 pages into the post but again I don't know if its since been edited out or totaly removed.Boyd it was a 1,000 yard shooter.Alot of what has been said in the past is now missing from this website.Rank has its priviledges.
Waterboy

virg
05-10-2009, 11:10 AM
[QUOTE=jackie schmidt;504687
I have seen many proponents of various ideas, and how they have found the solution, and are willing to sell the product. I have also seen these very same people, at matches, struggling like everyone else. Well, if it works so damed good, why are you in 35th place.[/QUOTE]

Exactly right!! This was very evident at the recent "Blue Bonnet" match. There were tuners of every description, Gene Begg's stocks, moly and non-moly bullets, and even an electronic flag set. Did any of these individuals coast to an easy, laid back win? Nope! Everyone struggled and fought for every good group shot.

For the Dietz range, the wind and weather were great...but everyone still fought for every group.

The STOOTER is still it!!

Virg

333smitty
05-10-2009, 12:28 PM
Exactly right!! This was very evident at the recent "Blue Bonnet" match. There were tuners of every description, Gene Begg's stocks, moly and non-moly bullets, and even an electronic flag set. Did any of these individuals coast to an easy, laid back win? Nope! Everyone struggled and fought for every good group shot.

For the Dietz range, the wind and weather were great...but everyone still fought for every group.

The STOOTER is still it!!

Virg

Well said....;) Vic

Lynn
05-10-2009, 06:14 PM
Jackie
I just read your post and want to apologise for saying it was you.I didn't get the e-mail notification of your reply before I had posted.It was a 1,000 yard shooter whose name starts with the letter "J" so your name popped up in my mind.Again I wasn't trying to pull one here.
Lynn aka Waterboy

Boyd
It was a 1,000 yard shooter and the search function here no longer works on trying to find a post by "Kathy".It keeps saying error.
I think when more shooters get into the tuners we will get a guy who does everything wrong and fall right into what Bill is saying.
My tuners seem very good and 1/4 turn makes a world of difference but if you can't read the wind you still get beat.
I am hopeful we get a calmer day with alot less mirage than we have been seeing lately so my heavygun gets a chance to shine.With myself as its shooter it needs good conditions.
Lynn aka Waterboy
P.S. In looking for that old post and going over many posters ideas and thoughts from that time I was amazed at how wrong we as a whole could be.

Pete Wass
05-10-2009, 06:47 PM
and many other sports is that NOBODY DOMINATES. If one person who had all the answers and dominated , there would be no incentive to compete with them. Some individual CONSISTENTLY wins more in any given year but they don't win every match they attend.

If one looks at Traveler Plaques they often see repeat winners but they usually aren't consecutive more then three or four years. Sometimes the same name will appear several time over a decade or so but I have yet to see one where the same name appeared for an entire decade. What does that say about Sport, in genersl? Even the greatest shooter to date has not won every year. If that person had all the answers or was so good at the sport that nobody could best them, their name would continue for more than , say, five years.

It's a darnd good thing that no one person dominates. There would be no attendees other than them if that were the case.

Pete Wass
05-11-2009, 06:11 AM
perhaps this "Tuner Thing" will go through stages of progression making them something they are not right now. In my opinion, being able to make a rifle that is shooting a Hunting rifle sized cloverleaf into a hole in the low teend or zeros is quite fantastic for the guy who has been trying to do that and after shooting 200, thirty six cent bullets, primers and powder is able to do it with just a 1/4 turn of a wieght screwed to the end of a barrel.

Without getting into agging ability or being competative or any of that, it IS Amazing AND Fantastic to be able to do this and see it happen. The rest of it will come later but this is one giant step for the Benchrest Field Fillers.

AVanGorder
05-11-2009, 06:16 AM
perhaps this "Tuner Thing" will go through stages of progression making them something they are not right now. In my opinion, being able to make a rifle that is shooting a Hunting rifle sized cloverleaf into a hole in the low teend or zeros is quite fantastic for the guy who has been trying to do that and after shooting 200, thirty six cent bullets, primers and powder is able to do it with just a 1/4 turn of a wieght screwed to the end of a barrel.

Without getting into agging ability or being competative or any of that, it IS Amazing AND Fantastic to be able to do this and see it happen. The rest of it will come later but this is one giant step for the Benchrest Field Fillers.

Pete,

Does it make you wish that tuners were legal years earlier?

Adrian

Pete Wass
05-11-2009, 10:08 AM
Lots of folks have wasted lots of copper, lead and celulose over the years!

Pete Wass
05-11-2009, 10:11 AM
Has there been anyone you know of who has used a reverse taper barrel with a big weighted area on the muzzle area, a-la the RF barrels, in Center Fire? Is the big weight the raod to a "Stopped Muzzle" ?

brian roberts
05-11-2009, 08:29 PM
that had an Obermeyer like that in .25 Ackley Krag. He did not use the expand-up method for seating cores, and thought he knew more than he did, but I never saw where, for all that he was supposed to be, make what I saw as extraordinary groups. He was just a big fish in a small pond. If someone is producing results I like, I need to speak to him, and I'm not too proud to say, "If I'm asking questions that are too basic, its because I'm ignorant of the techniques involved, but I'd like as much information as you have time for, today." There are ways to positively steer new people without giving up your day. That guy never learned how.:D

abintx
05-12-2009, 08:22 AM
The one good thing about this and many other sports is that NOBODY DOMINATES.

Here is a partial list of Hall of Fame members:

US Benchrest Hall of Fame Points through October 2008

TONY BOYER 122
ALAN EUBER 47
LESTER BRUNO 46
GARY OCOCK 33
ED WATSON (D) 28
DON GERACI 26
RON HOEHN 26
TOM GILLMAN 25
LOWELL FREI 25
PERRY MORTON 22
WALT BERGER 19
CHARLES HUCKEBA 19
JEF FOWLER 18
DON POWELL 18
WAYNE CAMPBELL 18
LEE EUBER 17
RUSSELL BOOP 17
JACK DEMMING 16
JIM STEKL 16
PAUL GOTSCHALL 16
JOE KRUPA 16

If Mr. Boyer isn't dominating, what is he doing ??? :)

Pete Wass
05-12-2009, 12:56 PM
was my meaning. His points have been accrued over a lot of years. Sure, he is the best there is in the Group game but he doesn't win every match. If a person thinks they can't best any of those people on the list, they had better stay home and play Croquet! They win quite a lot but don't win every match they enter. And just as an aside, I got over Hero Worship many, many years ago. Respect is another thing entirely.

Lynn
05-12-2009, 02:00 PM
Pete
I only know of two shooters using the big weight method instead of a regular tuner.
One is Tim Sellars who is the guy Jackie sent his Calfee type tuner too and I am working with on occasion.
Second is Henry Childs who has been using the large barrel diameter at the muzzle that is back bored a given amount.
I have sent Katokoch one picture and have a couple more he said he would post.I am right now trying to get off of Web TV and onto high speed so I can finaly post pictures to show what I am seeing.I am not very good at typing what a picture is pointing out and it would be nice for me to join the 21st century as well.
In the 100,200,300 yard disciplines the twist tuners you adjust as needed are the way to go in my opinion.
I shoot 600 and 1,000 yards so I need something more like Bill's 'Stopped Muzzle" tuner that doesn't need constant attention.
In my opinion if a guy played with a adjusted tuner that is heavy enough to clearly see it is working on the target.He would need to do this for an honest 6 months.He could then read through the whole slew of Bill Calfee posts or simply read his book of articles/posts and really understand what has been going on here for 5 years now without all the unnecessary stuff.In my opinion you need to play for awhile to help you understand the little things Bill is saying.I go through his writings in the evening when the TV is off and pick up little nuances not previously seen.
Lynn

Pete Wass
05-12-2009, 03:32 PM
From what I saw the other day, I agree with you. It would be pretty tough to best a simple device that will give immediate results and with ease. The simple weight seems to be wonderfully simple.

I read through Dick Wright's article on New Stuff in the current PS magazine in which he discusses the tuners he has. The tuner developed by Dwight Scott seems simple to the MAX! Tuners that don't need to be threaded on will be the next step I am predicting. I remember the three I had for my RF rifles. The concept hasn't changed a bit, from what I see so far. Being able to change a tuner from one barrel to another would be a lot less spendy for we old Retired, Fixed Income fellers.