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Mooseyard
05-06-2009, 01:05 PM
I had a gun being rebarreled by a smith, and he damaged the receiver getting the old barrel off. He sent me an email yesterday saying that he replaced the old receiver with one of the same brand, but not up to the standards of the one I sent him. He never ok'd this with me, he just did it. THe new rifle is on it's way to me already. This new rifle is going to be of no use to me as a BR gun. What do I do?

Keith23
05-06-2009, 01:25 PM
How do you know the gun will be of no use? How do you know the new receiver isn't every bit as good as yours was?

Perhaps you should wait until you have a chance to shoot the gun before condemming it.

Every smith I know in the rimfire game goes out of their way to be fair and wants his customers to be satisfied.

Give the rifle a try you may be surprised.

pickles
05-06-2009, 01:31 PM
How do you know the new action is not up to par if you have not seen it. Is there not a chance you could be supprised by the Quality of the new action?
Why don't you have a chance to get your money back ? is he some fly by night you gave your action to. From everything I have heard all the good smiths stand behind thier workmanship. They may not gurentee MOA, but thier work is thier word.


pickles

Mooseyard
05-06-2009, 01:40 PM
I sent him a CZ 452 with a worked on 6 oz trigger. He replaced it with a 453 that has a set trigger that will only go to 1 lb. I tried finding someone that makes an aftermarket trigger for the 453, and have had no luck. Even if I find one, it's going to be my expense to replace it. A 1lb trigger will not work for BR shooting.

Mooseyard
05-06-2009, 01:41 PM
How do you know the new action is not up to par if you have not seen it. Is there not a chance you could be supprised by the Quality of the new action?
Why don't you have a chance to get your money back ? is he some fly by night you gave your action to. From everything I have heard all the good smiths stand behind thier workmanship. They may not gurentee MOA, but thier work is thier word.


pickles

I didn't think he was a fly-by-night when I sent it to him.

Mooseyard
05-06-2009, 02:30 PM
did you trasfer the old recciver to him ? is the new one going to be transfered to you ??? ....he better snd to old one back as well.

I doubt I'll get the old receiver back. I would be happy if I did, at least I would have all my trigger parts that I could put into another 452.

jGEE
05-06-2009, 03:11 PM
Wow, Mr. george is right -you lost your gun. My opinion what he done is very close to theft, if not theft. He had no right keeping your receiver, he probably has broken some ATF laws for sure. Now your hung out to dry if that gun is ever used in a crime. Maybe he justed liked your 452 receiver better than his 453 and just traded with you, how you gonna know? I don't even know if you guys can legally "just trade" anymore... what a can of worms.
You should get your receiver back, if not call the law enforcement agency in his area and ask them if you can file theft charges. joe :(

Mooseyard
05-06-2009, 03:15 PM
I'm an FFL and I transferred the original rifle to an FFL in his state. Everything has been on the up and up as far as transfers go.

jGEE
05-06-2009, 03:27 PM
Well... if you have done the transfers, i don't think there is much recourse now. Try and make the best of your new rifle. joe:confused:

DonMatzeder
05-06-2009, 03:40 PM
The first thing I would do is to call the smith and tell him that his trade was unacceptable and try to work out a deal that you feel is fair. He has a bailment requirement to return your property. The best you could do is a new 452 and the trigger parts. If he did the barrel work on the new action, he could charge for that but no more....

Douglas
05-07-2009, 05:58 AM
Wouldn't it be nice if you didn't have to pay for stuff up front? unless you're willing to get in your car and drive to the guy's house, it sounds like you're screwed. It happens all the time, more often than folks think. It's sad when you put your trust and your treasure in someone and this is what you get. Mistakes happen, for sure, nobody's perfect, but the guy should at the least return the parts you sent him, buy you a new 452 and give you your money back. Thanks, Douglas

Beau
05-07-2009, 08:06 AM
You know, I've never paid a gunsmith up front.

gerald
05-07-2009, 08:24 AM
I have never been ask for money up front from a gunsmith .

Fred K
05-07-2009, 08:32 AM
Never !

Mooseyard
05-07-2009, 08:59 AM
This guy wanted 50% up front, but I had heard so many good things about him that I sent him the whole thing. I NEVER thought I would have these kinds of problems.

Dave S
05-07-2009, 10:30 AM
Me neither...All the gunsmiths I ever dealt with with said to check it out and if I was happy, send them a check and if I wasn't happy to let them know and they would make me happy..

Dave

Beau
05-07-2009, 10:36 AM
This guy wanted 50% up front, but I had heard so many good things about him that I sent him the whole thing. I NEVER thought I would have these kinds of problems.

Sounds like a bricklayer. If you send your components, why would anybody want something up front. They could charge on the back end even if you have to go get it. Asking for 50% indicates they are buying the components and don't have the cash. Sounds like a bricklayer.

hags
05-07-2009, 04:00 PM
Sounds like a bricklayer. If you send your components, why would anybody want something up front. They could charge on the back end even if you have to go get it. Asking for 50% indicates they are buying the components and don't have the cash. Sounds like a bricklayer.

I agree, I've done work for people and have had completed guns sitting here waiting for payment. Not a big deal to me.
If I had ever done this to someone I'd be sure and make it right or as close as possible.
Reputation is everything in this business.

D R Greysun
05-07-2009, 10:46 PM
So, let me get this right. You transferred ownership of your rifle to another FFL then payed your smith to buy it so he could do the work on it?? And you say you have an FFL? Then he sells you another rifle, am I getting this right so far?
I hate to say it but I think your smith saw a pigeon land on his window sill. Yep, I'd say you are screwed, I hate to say you deserved it. You did bend over and grab your ankles however. Sorry for your loss, I hope a lesson was learned in the process. Bummer all the way around!

D R

Mooseyard
05-07-2009, 11:14 PM
So, let me get this right. You transferred ownership of your rifle to another FFL then payed your smith to buy it so he could do the work on it?? And you say you have an FFL? Then he sells you another rifle, am I getting this right so far?
I hate to say it but I think your smith saw a pigeon land on his window sill. Yep, I'd say you are screwed, I hate to say you deserved it. You did bend over and grab your ankles however. Sorry for your loss, I hope a lesson was learned in the process. Bummer all the way around!

D R

No, you don't have it right! The smith in question doesn't have an FFL, so it would be illegal for me to send it directly to him. I sent it to a friend of his who had an FFL and did transfers for him. He picked up the gun from his FFL (he didn't buy it from him) and did the work on it. And no, he never sold me another rifle. I'm not sure what post you read? He just didn't return the rifle that I sent to him, he returned a different one. Why do you think I deserve it? What the hell did I do wrong in this exchange? I sent a guy a rifle to work on in good faith, and you think I bent over and grabbed my ankles? Please explain?

davejones
05-08-2009, 03:27 AM
"Yep, I'd say you are screwed, I hate to say you deserved it."

DR, please explain your statement to me, I don't think that I'm taking it the way that you mean it.

I may be reading it wrong, but;


If I con you out of money, is it your fault?

If I steal your TV, is it your fault?

If I steal your car, is it your fault?

Bill Wynne
05-08-2009, 05:19 AM
At this point I would look at it like this:

The man damaged your receiver and has made an honest effort to make it right. You have not even seen the rifle, much less shot it.

Let him know that you are concerned and what your concerns are.

When you get the rifle try it out. You might like it. If there are still problems that can be fixed and you think the guy is willing and able to fix them then talk to him.

Now I will tell you what I would do. If I get the gun back and don't like his work, yet I believe that he has done the best that he is able, I would pay his bill with out saying a word and put him on a never use or recommend list. Show the guy and yourself that you are better than he is. Life is short. We are, after all, just talking about money.:)

Gunsmithing may not be his line of work.

Concho Bill

Molly
05-08-2009, 05:29 AM
I guess my first red flag would have been that he was a gunsmith and didn't have an FFL. I thought that was a prerequisite? I think if you look on the ATF web site this is correct. If not I am not reading something correctly.

Mooseyard
05-08-2009, 08:13 AM
A little more to the story. I sent him these guns in September of 07 to be barreled and bedded. I guess I was mistaken in saying that he doesn't have an FFL, but he preferred that I send the stuff to his buddy because he wasn't always around to except shipments. I got thinking about that after Molly said something, and this guy works on enough guns that he had to have an FFL.
I got the CZ yesterday. He did a great job bedding the action, although it looks like he got release agent or bedding material on the stock and it stained the stock (I'll just have to refinish the stock next winter). He replaced my CZ 452 American with a 453 Varmint. The Varmint actually has a better stock for BR because the forearm is a little flatter. So that's a good thing. The trigger breaks very nicely at 10 oz. A little heavier than I would have preferred, but I'm not sure if I'm a good enough shooter for it to make much of difference. He told me last week that his buddy was polishing the barrel for me. Well, the barrel isn't polished at all. It has a very noticeable cross hatch in it, which is ok with me because I'm more concerned with how it shoots as apposed to looks. I just wonder why he told me it was being polished.
Some honesty from this smith would have gone a long way, and would have saved him a lot of money. I'll post pics and a range report when I can.
Thanks everyone!

And to add a little more. I'm more than happy with the price that I paid for my rifles and work I had done. For what I got, I got an awesome deal, I just didn't get what I wanted

blades
05-08-2009, 08:44 AM
I understand your concern, Glad that you seem to think it has worked out. Just a bit of "cart before the horse" though. Please be aware that no matter what it is regarding repairs, modifications ect., Murphy is always peering over our shoulders and just to spice things up a bit more there is O'Tool's Law " Murphy was an optimist"

nemohunter
05-08-2009, 10:18 AM
so lets see you got an awesome deal on a rifle you did not want. that does not sound like a deal to me at all.

"hey i got a great deal on this cheeseburger but when the waitress brought it out it was turd sandwich" oh well i got a good deal.

Mooseyard
05-08-2009, 12:28 PM
so lets see you got an awesome deal on a rifle you did not want. that does not sound like a deal to me at all.

"hey i got a great deal on this cheeseburger but when the waitress brought it out it was turd sandwich" oh well i got a good deal.

Yeah, it would be like getting a Honda Goldwing for $10,000 but you really wanted a Harley. That's a hell of a deal on a Goldwing, but it isn't the Harley.:rolleyes:

D R Greysun
05-08-2009, 07:02 PM
No, you don't have it right! The smith in question doesn't have an FFL, so it would be illegal for me to send it directly to him. I sent it to a friend of his who had an FFL and did transfers for him. He picked up the gun from his FFL (he didn't buy it from him) and did the work on it. And no, he never sold me another rifle. I'm not sure what post you read? He just didn't return the rifle that I sent to him, he returned a different one. Why do you think I deserve it? What the hell did I do wrong in this exchange? I sent a guy a rifle to work on in good faith, and you think I bent over and grabbed my ankles? Please explain?

Mooseyard my friend, Why did you feel it necessary to'transfer'your rifle to anyone? Transfer's are for changes in ownership. That appears to be what you did. You transferred your 452 to the Smiths FFL now it's the FFL's The Smith had his problems and sold you a 453
through his FFL. It seems you paid the bill coming and going. Next time box up your rifle and send it to your smith, no transfer BS involved. After all it is a
'long gun'. Even the liberal Republic of Kalifornia only requires the services of an FFL when transferring 'ownership' of a long gun. I would be quite wary of any smith who does not have the business to warrant an FFL. Hey, it was your call and it turned out bad for you. Live and learn!

D R

Mooseyard
05-08-2009, 09:07 PM
Mooseyard my friend, Why did you feel it necessary to'transfer'your rifle to anyone? Transfer's are for changes in ownership. That appears to be what you did. You transferred your 452 to the Smiths FFL now it's the FFL's The Smith had his problems and sold you a 453
through his FFL. It seems you paid the bill coming and going. Next time box up your rifle and send it to your smith, no transfer BS involved. After all it is a
'long gun'. Even the liberal Republic of Kalifornia only requires the services of an FFL when transferring 'ownership' of a long gun. I would be quite wary of any smith who does not have the business to warrant an FFL. Hey, it was your call and it turned out bad for you. Live and learn!

D R

You really didn't read the post, and you are very ignorant of Federal Firearm laws. It would be illegal for me to just send a rifle to someone else in another state, and like I said the smith has an FFL but doesn't want guns shipped to his license. You don't understand the word transfer as far as FFl's are concerned.

Butch Lambert
05-08-2009, 09:15 PM
As an individual you can ship your rifle to a gunsmith that has an FFL and he can ship back to you. This is even out of state.
Butch

Mooseyard
05-08-2009, 09:26 PM
As an individual you can ship your rifle to a gunsmith that has an FFL and he can ship back to you. This is even out of state.
Butch

I'm NOT an individual. I'm a class 3 firearms dealer, and I like my license. If I send a rifle to anyone, I have to transfer it out of my bound book. He never sent me an FFL, so I had to send it to his friend. Therefore, I transfered it to his friend. There was no selling or buying.

D R Greysun
05-09-2009, 04:52 AM
I'm NOT an individual. I'm a class 3 firearms dealer, and I like my license. If I send a rifle to anyone, I have to transfer it out of my bound book. Butch never sent me an FFL, so I had to send it to his friend. Therefore, I transfered it to his friend. There was no selling or buying.

If it is your personal rifle it should no longer be in your 'bound' book.

D R

Molly
05-09-2009, 06:11 AM
Butch never sent me an FFL, so I had to send it to his friend. Therefore, I transfered it to his friend. There was no selling or buying.

So it was Butch huh? He better get a FFL as much free advertising as he gets on this forum. Someone will get PO'ed at him or big brother will notice this thread and he will have more than migraines.

Mooseyard
05-09-2009, 06:29 AM
If it is your personal rifle it should no longer be in your 'bound' book.

D R

You really should just do some studying.

Dave S
05-09-2009, 11:07 AM
D R Graysun:

Where did you get your quote about Butch. The quote you are referring to is directly above your post and I don't see any reference in the quote about anyones name..???

Your quote has been doctored...:rolleyes:

Dave

D R Greysun
05-09-2009, 02:40 PM
D R Graysun:

Where did you get your quote about Butch. The quote you are referring to is directly above your post and I don't see any reference in the quote about anyones name..???

Your quote has been doctored...:rolleyes:

Dave

Say what? You didn't see 'Butch' come off my keyboard until now. :confused:

'Butch Lambert' sighed his post:
Butch Lambert As an individual you can ship your rifle to a gunsmith that has an FFL and he can ship back to you. This is even out of state.
Butch

Could this have confused you?

Oh Boy, Last edited by Mooseyard; Today at 02:29 AM. Guess where 'Butch' went!

D R

D R Greysun
05-09-2009, 02:42 PM
You really should just do some studying.

Mooseyard, Just because you hold an FFL does not mean you cannot own your own (as in personal) rifle/s.

D R

jGEE
05-09-2009, 03:00 PM
Say what? You didn't see 'Butch' come off my keyboard until now. :confused:

'Butch Lambert' sighed his post:

Could this have confused you?

Oh Boy, Last edited by Mooseyard; Today at 02:29 AM. Guess where 'Butch' went!

D R

Mr. Greysun i to was confused and thought may you did edit your "quote". I probably owe you an appoligy. I think maybe
Mr moose made a mistake on his post by naming names, after you quoted his post he notice out of respect for the smith he needed to edit his post... not sure but maybe this is what happened.


http://houstontruetens.com/RUGER/DRPOST.jpg

http://houstontruetens.com/RUGER/DRPOST1.jpg

Doug
05-09-2009, 03:38 PM
:eek:
and The Plot Thickens!:eek:

Mooseyard
05-09-2009, 04:55 PM
Mr. Greysun i to was confused and thought may you did edit your "quote". I probably owe you an appoligy. I think maybe
Mr moose made a mistake on his post by naming names, after you quoted his post he notice out of respect for the smith he needed to edit his post... not sure but maybe this is what happened.


http://houstontruetens.com/RUGER/DRPOST.jpg

http://houstontruetens.com/RUGER/DRPOST1.jpg

Give that man a cupy doll!

Mooseyard
05-09-2009, 04:56 PM
Mooseyard, Just because you hold an FFL does not mean you cannot own your own (as in personal) rifle/s.

D R

You are correct, if the firearm has been in my personal collection for over a year. The rifle in question was not. I don't understand why you are so hung up on how the rifle got there?

AVanGorder
05-09-2009, 06:06 PM
Not to change the subject. But, wasn't there a story going on there a while back about someone installing a different barrel than what was supplied?

TAJ45
05-09-2009, 07:48 PM
A 453 being sent instead of the skeerood up 452 with the better trigger.

Mooseyard
05-11-2009, 01:28 PM
After a long talk with the smith today, I think we have everything ironed out. If he comes through with what he is hoping for, he will have gone beyond what I'm looking for at this point. I think he is an honest guy, but there were some communication issues on both sides.