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Old Gunner
04-16-2009, 07:26 PM
Hello

Gentlemen I've found myself running into a veritable wall of ignorance and misinformation in regard to the subjects of propellants both the history of and the chemical and physical properties and their affect on the steels used to manufacture collectable firearms.

I've been away from serious shooting and handloading for far too long due to family responsibilities and never used the internet during the days when I was active in the shooting sports.

The major problem I'm having is explaining to younger shooters, and a few who should know better but somehow don't, the basics of gas erosion, mechanical erosion, and the various types of fouling and the causes and cures.

I'm not a Benchrest shooter per se' but almost all my knowledge of handloading and the tricks of the trade required to get the absolute best accuracy from any centerfire rifle come from studying the art as practiced by Benchrest shooters and long range match shooters.

I've adapted these methods gleaned from many sources over nearly fifty years of shooting and handloading to tayloring match quality ammunition for my own rifles and those of a few friends and customers.

Unfortunately I've found that for the most part the simplest basics of internal balistics have become a lost art as far as most of the recent crop of shooters are concerned and advertising hype has taken the place of scientific fact.

Since benchrest shooters and those who handload religiously for their rifles are generally far more interested in facts and more likely to be scrupulously honest about the results of their methods than the gunrag pundits and increasingly common internet posuers that infest some other shooting forums I'm hoping that the members heres can guide me to online information that I can use to dispell some of the urban legend type misconceptions that are begining to threaten the shooting sports and put young shooters at risk.

If at all possible images of the least commonly known effects of carbon fouling on such things as the chamber neck and shoulder would be a good starting point.

Other factors such as
1. the agregation of atomised lead , carbon, and residue of deterrent coatings of double base propellants.

2. The difference in the pressure cycle between double base and single base propellants.

3. the factors of molecular weight of gases of combustion and the high velocity of oscilating gases and why they ensure that despite the reduction of temperature of heavily moderated double base propellents the will always erode non stainless, and most stainless, unplated bores at a higher rate than single base propellants of equal quality.
This is more important to older rifles than it is to the most modern rifles whose barrels benefit from the advances in metalurgy of the past few years.

4. The uncommon but very real possibility of antique rifles suffering from the effects of excessive gas erosion having internal failures that can destroy a rifle and injure or kill the shooter. This sort of situation not being solved by reduced loads, and often made worse by use of reduced loads.

My own collecting interests at this time centers on high quality and fairly rare sporting rifles, not of great value but rather of utility, and the WW1 era Enfield.
I've recently downsized my collection dispensing with all but a couple of the more modern handguns and shotguns and keeping only my antique high power rifles and my nicest centerfire small game rifle a near cherry .25/20 savage 23B. I'll be ordering dies for the .25/20 some so any information on this cartridge and good loads for it would be greatly apeciated.

I probably won't visit this forum often since aside from handloading techniques my interests are not that much in line with modern bench rest shooting.

zippy06
04-16-2009, 09:01 PM
sometimes Wikipedia is pretty good.
Click on link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&search=mechanical+erosion&fulltext=Search

Then again, not.
There is a ton of info. out there. Just gotta find it.

Old Gunner
04-16-2009, 10:21 PM
sometimes Wikipedia is pretty good.
Click on link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&search=mechanical+erosion&fulltext=Search

Then again, not.
There is a ton of info. out there. Just gotta find it.

Far too much misinformation has originated with Wiki.

I'll check your link though, often Wiki is more valuable in supplying leads to more accurate sources.

I'd already downloaded some of Hatcher's and Whelen's books as public domain downloads along with many scientific treatises and more recent government sponsored research papers but unfortunately those most in need of correcting don't seem to have enough of a grasp of the subject to understand whats available.
Its a bit like the old saying "do I have to draw you a picture?". If you can't supply images their minds can't visualize from the written word.
I blame modern education methods. In my day they spent less time telling you what to think, and more time teaching you how to think for yourself.