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Geo.OR
04-07-2009, 11:50 PM
www.nybooks.com

The Red Cross Torture Report: What It Means
By Mark Danner
Torture is more than a repugnant series of "procedures" applied to the fourteen "high-value detainees" at "black site" CIA prisons—procedures described with chilling and patient particularity in this authoritative report. Torture is a critical issue in the present of our politics. By torturing, the United States has wounded itself and helped its enemies in what is inherently a political war. And by torturing prisoners, many of whom were implicated in committing great crimes against Americans, the United States has made it impossible to render justice on those criminals.

* Download the text of the ICRC Report on the Treatment of Fourteen "High Value Detainees" in CIA Custody

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What's all this got to do with firearms? The rationale behind the Second Amendment is to provide an armed electorate as a defense against a tyrranical government. "Necessary to the security of a free state . . . " and all that.

nrb
04-08-2009, 06:23 AM
Why read anything that Danner writes? Just look at his past articles and who employs him. He loves to hate.

best, nrb

HovisKM
04-08-2009, 08:15 AM
I guess we should not torture them at all.....let's just start beheading them...I'm for that.

Hovis

Larry Elliott
04-08-2009, 11:02 AM
Isn't torture something that permanently disables or injures someone? Keeping someone awake for extended periods, playing loud music, or other things that might be unpleasant certainly doesn't qualify as torture IMHO. Or if it does I'd like to sue the DoD, and various others who have made my life less than totally pleasant for the past nearly 68 years. I might even want to sue my dog for getting me up in the middle of the night to let him out to inspect his backyard. :eek:

It must be wonderful to live in the fairy tale dream world that the ICRC, Amnesty International, ACLU, et al, live in. One wonders what they might say if a member of their family's death or injury could have been prevented by the, uh, rigorous interrogation of a terrorist. :mad:

Gerry Nordmann
04-08-2009, 12:08 PM
[QUOTE=Larry Elliott;496925]Isn't torture something that permanently disables or injures someone? Keeping someone awake for extended periods, playing loud music, or other things that might be unpleasant certainly doesn't qualify as torture IMHO.
---------------------------------------------------------
These are things teens do to their parents all the time. Should we call the Red Cross?

Larry Elliott
04-08-2009, 12:29 PM
Oh NO, whatever children do is protected by the UN. Only adults and parents can torture others, and if you think your children are torturing you or have, it will be something for the UN and ICRC to consider. You will be found guilty though.

HovisKM
04-08-2009, 01:35 PM
It must be wonderful to live in the fairy tale dream world that the ICRC, Amnesty International, ACLU, et al, live in. One wonders what they might say if a member of their family's death or injury could have been prevented by the, uh, rigorous interrogation of a terrorist. :mad:


Larry,

One thing they can't and won't believe....is their against the very protection that protects THEM...

Hovis

Larry Elliott
04-08-2009, 02:43 PM
Hovis,

They're just like kids who, after doing what they were specifically told not to do but did anyway, come whining to you saying that we didn't keep them from doing it. Protect me, but don't do anything to do that which might possibly offend anyone.

Larry

Montana Pete
04-08-2009, 05:35 PM
I really think there was lots of bad stuff under the previous administration.

The current president is pretty hot to eliminate torture. I hope he succeeds.

What happened to the Geneva Convention?

If I had to choose between snowboarding and waterboarding, I would take snowboarding every time.

Yote
04-08-2009, 07:33 PM
What happened to the Geneva Convention?


Sorry Pete, I just can't stand with you on that one. There comes a time when you fight fire with fire. These guys are intent on killing Americans and I don't give a crap what you, the pc of this country, or the world thinks about the "torture" the terrorists received. If you ask me, it wasn't near extreme enough!:mad:

david dumas
04-08-2009, 08:33 PM
I'm against torture too! hell just smoke'm (bullets are cheap),,,,,,,,and move on to find the next one

the wind is my friend,,,,,,,,,,

DD

HovisKM
04-09-2009, 07:48 AM
It's awlfully easy to sit back and call things torture and rant on about rules of engagement or the geneva convention......when your not the one being shot at.

Hovis

glynn angle
04-09-2009, 08:02 AM
Larry, were you ever at Walker AFB ?

adamsgt
04-09-2009, 08:21 AM
Keeping someone awake for extended periods, playing loud music, or other things that might be unpleasant certainly doesn't qualify as torture IMHO.

If I recall, isn't that what The FBI did to the men, women and children at the Branch Davidian compound in Waco? So, if this was done under the auspices of the Clinton administration it surely couldn't be torture.

Big Al
04-09-2009, 09:47 AM
If I recall, isn't that what The FBI did to the men, women and children at the Branch Davidian compound in Waco? So, if this was done under the auspices of the Clinton administration it surely couldn't be torture.


Keeping folks awake for long hours is a method employed by American police departments all over America. Does this mean all these organizations will now be subject to these committee jurisdiction? What the heck, Obama is giveing away our counties sovereignty anyway, why should this be any different?

Gerry Nordmann
04-09-2009, 10:15 AM
It's awlfully easy to sit back and call things torture and rant on about rules of engagement or the geneva convention......when your not the one being shot at.

Hovis
--------------------------------------
What does the Geneva Convention say about sawing an American's head off with a rusty knife then waving it in front of a TV camera while yelling that "God is Great".
But, when Americans play loud music and keep the terrorists up late many think we are the bad guys????? A lot of people must have their heads in a warm fuzzy place, and they won't see the guy with the rusty knife til it's too
late. Thank God we still have young people willing to protect all the meat
heads. If it were up to me I would give "Rusty Knife" the addresses of all
the Peace Lovers and tell him God will love him. Korean War Vet

Pete Wass
04-09-2009, 10:25 AM
If any of the pantywasted folks who are all grossed out by this so-called torture ever think about the torture the firemen who were incenerated or the innocent office workers who were both vaporized and incenerated in the two towers suffered? Or how about the innocent follks on those Airliners or even the ones in the Pentagon?

One of the biggest mistakes Congress ever made was emasculating the CIA. Back when the CIA was able to protect us, we didn't have terorists active, from my memory.

Think about the few thousand who died innocently here in this country before you are nausiated by the thought of some person who hates all of us and wants to murder any and all of us being "reminded" that it isn't such a great thing to murder innocent people. This country should have Nuked them first before we tortured any of them, if we did.

It's always the same story with arm chair quaterbacks, isn't it?

glynn angle
04-09-2009, 10:49 AM
I did a paper in college on Prisons & Prisoners of the Korean War. The N. Koreans & Chinese had Torture down to an Art Form.

Pete Wass
04-09-2009, 11:20 AM
I did a paper in college on Prisons & Prisoners of the Korean War. The N. Koreans & Chinese had Torture down to an Art Form.

I wonder if the word HAVE might be better inserted for HAD?

Larry Elliott
04-09-2009, 11:47 AM
I really think there was lots of bad stuff under the previous administration.

The current president is pretty hot to eliminate torture. I hope he succeeds.

What happened to the Geneva Convention?

If I had to choose between snowboarding and waterboarding, I would take snowboarding every time.

Pete: The "Geneva Conventions" actually Hague Conventions apply to civilized warfare between uniformed combatants. These terrorists are NOT uniformed combatants engaged in "civilized warfare". Did you know that Nazi infiltrators during the Battle of the Bulge were given a summary battlefield trials then executed? NO, they didn't have ACLU lawyers either. They wore US uniforms to infiltrate, and could well have been shot or hung out of hand in accord with the conventions of civilized warfare.

There are lots of things I'd rather do than be waterboarded, kept up for extended periods of time, forced to listen to rap "music" played at any volume, but it doesn't cause permanent damage or injury it's just unpleasant. If things that are merely unpleasant are considered torture I've spent many years being tortured by various and sundry.

If you're dealing with rabid dogs you don't treat them like the neighbors tail wagging Labrador who's come over to get it's ear scratched. The terrorists are like rabid dogs and should receive the same consideration IMHO. If that offends the Brits, French, Italians, Arabs, or anyone else maybe they should consider what they have done and likely still do.



Glynne, I've never been at Walker AFB, don't even know where it's at.

Tony Shankle
04-09-2009, 12:11 PM
Pete: There are lots of things I'd rather do than be waterboarded, kept up for extended periods of time, forced to listen to rap "music" played at any volume, but it doesn't cause permanent damage or injury it's just unpleasant.

Larry, I have to disagree with you on the "rap music not causing permanent damage" isssue! :eek:

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b72/principleone/Rapper_Lil_Jon1.jpg

:D

Geo.OR
04-09-2009, 01:13 PM
Two pages of reactionary rants. So far none of the posts have READ the report.

READ THE REPORT.

Larry Elliott
04-09-2009, 01:27 PM
Tony, sorry, you're right.... :D

George, I don't need to read the ICRC report, I've heard enough of their "progressive" BS. When a liberal calls me a "reactionary" I know I'm on the right track. :eek:

Geo.OR
04-09-2009, 01:34 PM
Tony, sorry, you're right.... :D

George, I don't need to read the ICRC report, I've heard enough of their "progressive" BS. When a liberal calls me a "reactionary" I know I'm on the right track. :eek:

International Red Cross produced the report. But so much for an informed electorate.

Larry Elliott
04-09-2009, 01:48 PM
An "informed electorate" brought us Clinton, GW Bush, Obambi, and likely another president that believes that the UN and foreign laws and rules should govern the United States instead of OUR Constitution and laws. When a bare majority of the population understand and believes that capitalism is superior to socialism, the opinion of the ICRC is of little concern for me.

Our news media mostly spews leftist propaganda instead of covering negatives and positives about anything, including candidates/elected officials who give them a thrill running up their leg.

Unelected clowns in Europe who don't care what I think, don't need my concern either. Witness the "European Parliament" which is full of appointed bureaucrats not elected representatives. What I'm looking forward to.

George you have your agenda, and if you haven't noticed the people on this forum are mostly not in agreement or interested. It's not because we're intellectually inferior conservatives either. My wife knows a lot of liberals, and tells me that mostly they get what news they get from that noted purveyor of honest reporting NPR, aka, National People's Radio. Being a liberal doesn't make anyone automatically superior, intellectually or otherwise, regardless of what the folks on PMSNBC want you to believe.

HovisKM
04-09-2009, 02:08 PM
When a combatant is not in a uniform....he is considered a spy and can be executed....period. Used to happen all the time. It happens during peace or war.

Maybe the towel heads should read the report and the geneva/hague conventions governing the law of war. I haven't seen any liberals bring up that point. But of course....it's perfectly ok for the terrorists to behead americans....because we had it coming....at least that's the liberals opinion. Same as an americans life isn't worth as much as a terrorist life...another fine liberal viewpoint.

Hovis

Yote
04-09-2009, 07:40 PM
Well, I read the report. All 41 pages of it.

I've never seen the word "alleged" used so many times. The icrc interviewed the 14 detainees and basically wrote down what these detainees told them about the torture techniques that were used on them.

Reckon the detainees were being truthful? Who here is willing to believe what comes out of their mouths? I have no doubt some of what they say is probably true but there were patterns in the report. Such as the detainee who kept refusing to give his name. His torture always was different than the other detainees. Why? The others pretty much said some of the same things but this guy is out in left field somewhere with tortures that no one else was subjected to. Kinda makes me believe he was making the whole thing up.

And according to the report, only 3 of the 14 detainees were subjected to waterboarding. Also, there were medical personnel there with instruments to check the oxygen levels in their blood to make sure the terrorist wouldn't die!Plus, this was done early(2002) after being arrested when they were being detained in 3rd world countries. Who was administering the torture? One detainee says a Morrocan, a South American, and a white man of European descent tortured him.:confused:

All in all I thought the report was full of holes. I find it hard to believe that this report was put together with nothing but testimonies from the 14 detainees and what they told the icrc.

MDOlson
04-09-2009, 10:03 PM
It's awlfully easy to sit back and call things torture and rant on about rules of engagement or the geneva convention......when your not the one being shot at.

Hovis

And if you're an American about to be tortured, don't go bringin' up that geneva convention . What goes around, will come around, eventually.

HovisKM
04-10-2009, 06:50 AM
And if you're an American about to be tortured, don't go bringin' up that geneva convention . What goes around, will come around, eventually.

What goes around....comes around? and what's that eventually crap...what rock have you been hiding under??? and....when did we start beheading people for fun???? The geneva convention sure helped out those in the Hanoi Hilton didn't it. We're the only ones coming close to playing by the rules but folks want to point the finger at us. Heck, as I've said many times before....we could have never won WWII with the way the liberals carry on today.

Hovis

jaybic
04-10-2009, 07:12 AM
Playing by the rules when every one else is cheating is a sure way to lose. Sure, you have the moral high ground but you certainly will not win any fight, poker game, boxing match or otherwise. Foolish to try.

We have not played anywhere near the hardball that we need to be playing with these people. These people give no quarter. These people are cancer. You dont reason or argue with cancer and tell it, "Hey look, if you promise to only destroy 1 of my kindeys and no other organs, I promise not to go to chemo and try and kill you". You kill cancer. Period. Everylast bit of it or it will come back and try to get you again. Islamic terrorists do not go into remission. They were not torturerd, just merely inconvenienced IMHO.

Just my own take on things and no offense to others.

Jamie

Gerry
04-10-2009, 07:29 AM
You said it committing crimes against the united states
great crimes like cuttung off heads kidnapping and blackmailing for release.
The answer is pure and simple take no prisoners'
this solves all of the problems'
you will never change these peoples mind set and death is the only answer in some cases.

Gerry Nordmann
04-10-2009, 10:07 AM
Two pages of reactionary rants. So far none of the posts have READ the report.

READ THE REPORT.

I want to read the report on
Terrorist torture. But they can't find any one to interview, because no one
is left alive to tell about it. What does Geo have to say about that ????

Yote
04-10-2009, 10:31 AM
Playing by the rules when every one else is cheating is a sure way to lose. Sure, you have the moral high ground but you certainly will not win any fight, poker game, boxing match or otherwise. Foolish to try.

We have not played anywhere near the hardball that we need to be playing with these people. These people give no quarter. These people are cancer. You dont reason or argue with cancer and tell it, "Hey look, if you promise to only destroy 1 of my kindeys and no other organs, I promise not to go to chemo and try and kill you". You kill cancer. Period. Everylast bit of it or it will come back and try to get you again. Islamic terrorists do not go into remission. They were not torturerd, just merely inconvenienced IMHO.

Just my own take on things and no offense to others.

Jamie

That's a very good analogy.

Unfortunately, thanks to the freedoms we have, and the politicians' desire to get re-elected, playing fair is all they will do to keep their jobs. Alot of blame is put on politicians and rightly so, but the American peoples weak stomach is also to blame.

No wonder we are viewed by the world as weak.

RStiefel
04-10-2009, 10:54 AM
"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And when you look long into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you"
The whole thing has gotten out of hand. Does the name Jose Padilla, an American citizen ring a bell? Even John McCain has publicly stated, "we will never torture an American citizen".

Tony Shankle
04-10-2009, 11:27 AM
In lieu of pissing and moaning about how we treat others...let's piss and moan about how we treat our own Veterans.

Read http://oversight.house.gov/documents/20071213131834.pdf Be sure to see the ratings chart at the end of the document.

Let's clean up our own doorstep first!

Gary M.
04-11-2009, 08:32 PM
The USA has never done anything that is torture. Torture is done by psychopaths and deviants for some sick pleasure. What we do is ask simple questions, and we ask them enough time in different ways to extract every bit of the answers we need to keep our people alive. When the questions are over, the subject is not cripple, deaf, blind or dead. He or she returns to the life of a prisoner until they are deemed safe to return to the world. If you can not understand the difference you need some serious head work done.

Geo.OR
04-11-2009, 09:29 PM
The USA has never done anything that is torture. Torture is done by psychopaths and deviants for some sick pleasure. What we do is ask simple questions, and we ask them enough time in different ways to extract every bit of the answers we need to keep our people alive. When the questions are over, the subject is not cripple, deaf, blind or dead. He or she returns to the life of a prisoner until they are deemed safe to return to the world. If you can not understand the difference you need some serious head work done.

There are other sources for information besides Faux News.

Larry Elliott
04-11-2009, 09:38 PM
Yup there's PMSNBC, CNN, and PBS which are reliably left wing along with CBS and ABC which usually lean left, for those who can't stand to hear anything that will upset them about the Chosen One.

I've found that people who've never watched Fox News are the most critical of it. :eek:

RStiefel
04-11-2009, 10:28 PM
Yup there's PMSNBC, CNN, and PBS which are reliably left wing along with CBS and ABC which usually lean left, for those who can't stand to hear anything that will upset them about the Chosen One.

I've found that people who've never watched Fox News are the most critical of it. :eek:
Don't they all lean one way or the other? Surely you don't advocate FOX is unbiased do you???

Larry Elliott
04-12-2009, 09:49 PM
I've found that Fox usually goes after both sides unlike the others that tend to be reliably left wing. Fox went after Bush, and yes they're going after Obama too. Isn't that shocking. If you can't stand your boy or girl being gone after it's likely best not to watch Fox.

Geo.OR
04-12-2009, 09:56 PM
I've found that Fox usually goes after both sides unlike the others that tend to be reliably left wing. Fox went after Bush, and yes they're going after Obama too. Isn't that shocking. If you can't stand your boy or girl being gone after it's likely best not to watch Fox.

Sooooooooo . . . You don't recognize a political agenda when it jumps out and bites you on the butt, eh? :rolleyes:

Larry Elliott
04-12-2009, 10:07 PM
Sooooooooo . . . You don't recognize a political agenda when it jumps out and bites you on the butt, eh? :rolleyes:

George tell me where you get your news. If you tell me it's MSNBC, CNN, NBC, or PBS and don't recognize and agenda....

Did you happen to hear the NPR reporter ask the Vice Admiral this afternoon how the SEALS knew that the pirates were endangering the life of the Maersk Alabama's captain. I've got to wonder if that dimwit understands what pirates are. I'm sure that the one that was caught alive will be provided with all the ACLU lawyers he can stand and be given a nice trial and a nice cell while he's being tried. Or maybe bail so he can wander around the USA because he's been misunderstood and it was just a business arrangement that went bad. Too bad it's not 150 or so years ago and they'd have just hung him from the yard arm for piracy.

That sort of whiney, sissy attitude will gain us a whole lot of respect all over the world. Better to be hate and feared than hated and laughed at IMHO.

nrb
04-13-2009, 06:57 AM
It is easy to stop all the wars in the middle east, including the war in Iraq. Just convert the United States to ISLAM !!!!
Then we can bring our islamic armies home. Then we can bring our islamic airplanes home.
Sharia Law will rule our land and we will be observant of the new rules.
We will burn the Constitution and our koran will be the law.
We will remove and destroy all monuments in the District of Columbia and in all parts of our land.
We will yield all churches and synagogues to islam to convert to mosques.
We will remove the President and an iman will take over rule.
We will dissolve Congress and recognize new islamic councils.
All holidays will be removed and a calender faithful to mohammed will be used.
Our schools will be reorganized for boys and men only.
Girls and women will remain at home until authorized otherwise.
Infractions of the law of the koran will be dealt with by lashing or beheading.

best to GEO, nrb

Gerry Nordmann
04-13-2009, 09:03 AM
George tell me where you get your news. If you tell me it's MSNBC, CNN, NBC, or PBS and don't recognize and agenda....

Did you happen to hear the NPR reporter ask the Vice Admiral this afternoon how the SEALS knew that the pirates were endangering the life of the Maersk Alabama's captain. I've got to wonder if that dimwit understands what pirates are. I'm sure that the one that was caught alive will be provided with all the ACLU lawyers he can stand and be given a nice trial and a nice cell while he's being tried. Or maybe bail so he can wander around the USA because he's been misunderstood and it was just a business arrangement that went bad. Too bad it's not 150 or so years ago and they'd have just hung him from the yard arm for piracy.

That sort of whiney, sissy attitude will gain us a whole lot of respect all over the world. Better to be hate and feared than hated and laughed at IMHO.


If our news papers wrote like this they might not be going out of business.
Too many Girlie Men in the news busness - they sound like Opra with PMS.

RStiefel
04-13-2009, 09:31 AM
It is easy to stop all the wars in the middle east, including the war in Iraq. Just convert the United States to ISLAM !!!!
Then we can bring our islamic armies home. Then we can bring our islamic airplanes home.
Sharia Law will rule our land and we will be observant of the new rules.
We will burn the Constitution and our koran will be the law.
We will remove and destroy all monuments in the District of Columbia and in all parts of our land.
We will yield all churches and synagogues to islam to convert to mosques.
We will remove the President and an iman will take over rule.
We will dissolve Congress and recognize new islamic councils.
All holidays will be removed and a calender faithful to mohammed will be used.
Our schools will be reorganized for boys and men only.
Girls and women will remain at home until authorized otherwise.
Infractions of the law of the koran will be dealt with by lashing or beheading.

best to GEO, nrb
Some of which you preach is taking place right now. The terminology is a bit different.

Butch Lambert
04-13-2009, 10:23 AM
What if your Daughter was kidnapped, tortured, and raped? Would you pat the bad guys on the head or?? When it gets close to home, you may have a different opinion.
Butch

Weathermaker
04-14-2009, 07:38 PM
Red Cross = Just another money hungry bureaucracy. I wouldn't give them a dime.

Geo.OR
04-23-2009, 03:13 PM
Red Cross = Just another money hungry bureaucracy. I wouldn't give them a dime.

You're confounding the American Red Cross with the International Red Cross. They're not at all the same agency.

This week's release of reports, memos, papers by the CIA, military, Senate Arms Commitee is suggesting that torture was used by the Bush Admin. to fabricate a nexus between Al Quaeda and Saddam Hussein.

Holder in the Justice Dept. is suggesting that the door is open to prosecution of the upper echelon officials who developed this protocol and arranged for its (ill founded) "legal justification."

Waterboarding is an international war crime.

Officials in question are Rumsfeld and Cheney.

Ironic as hell that this thread is rated "in the dumpster" but nonetheless running four or five pages of comments. And it's not about shooting.