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Codeman
03-07-2009, 08:04 AM
I had posted previous about haveing trouble FL sizing some brass that came wit my used PPC. I ended up scrapping 35 of the 50 cases that came with the gun. I decided to make some new brass for the gun. After neck turning some new 220 R, I tried to chamber the cases (unloaded), the bolt will not close on these new cases. I will eventually get a new barrel put on but dont have the funds right now. What is my problem? Bad chamber? Bad bolt? HELP

Cody

Bob Kingsbury
03-07-2009, 08:47 AM
First, scrap the other 15 cases , as you have no idea of their history.
second, the culprit in most cases is interference at the neck-shoulder
junction. Using a non bushing FL die, size cases, adjusting die downward
just to where the cases go in and the bolt closes, no more. Quite often
the expander button or ball opens that neck-shoulder area back up
and causes the same problem. Either change to a 22 expander or
reduce the diameter of the 6mm ball.

Boyd Allen
03-07-2009, 11:05 AM
On my 6PPC, if you don't turn onto the shoulder the full width of the neck turner cutter chamfer, bolt closure requires a great deal of force, and if this is done (with the lugs well greased, to prevent their being galled) a so called "doughnut" ,at the base of the neck, is formed.

In my opinion, with the short bullets that we use in short range Benchrest, and the usual throat configurations, doughnuts are more of an aesthetic problem than a functional one. On the other hand, hard bolt closure risks lug finish damage, and should be avoided.

When I first started turning necks for my PPC, I was concerned that turning on the shoulder would weaken the case, so I sectioned a couple using a reinforced abrasive wheel on my cordless Dremel. (Wear glasses and a paper mask for this, since the brass dust is thrown right into your face.)From that, I could see that there was no problem. I should add that I like an old Sinclair turner for my rough cut. It has a rather broad chamfer that is easy to see which makes controlling the cut easier. I strive for an end of cut, on the shoulder that does not easily catch my thumb nail. A little trial and error has taught me that if I reverse toward the mouth of the case just as soon as the cut reached the full width of the chamfer, I should be OK.

Setting the case fit by the cut on the shoulder might not be practical if your chamber is very short, but for mine it works fine, and I don't get doughnuts.

maarten de ridd
03-07-2009, 11:34 AM
blacken some cases with a black felt tip marker, and try to chamber them; this sometimes leeve marks where the problem is.
I also had this with some cases that where too long...
silly me!
good luck Maarten

alinwa
03-07-2009, 12:24 PM
Codeman,


Just remember, THIS IS GOOD!!! It was short-chambered ON PURPOSE.......

The base root of the PPC equation is based on proper brass fit for fireforming, short-chambering allows you to set you own fireforming headspace via either neck turning as Boyd says or even by subtly bumping the shoulder. All of this is key to the PPC's agg'ing ability, embrace it.

You'll find several areas where your standard reloading/shooting practices need be modified, it's the difference between running a racing car and driving the Daily Chevy to town for groceries. Once you've got the basice mastered though the PPC WILL literally stack bullets :) it's worth it.

al

Russ Hardy
03-09-2009, 01:06 AM
It is very common for the PPC to be chambered so that 220 russian brass must be slightly FL sized to chamber properly in the rifle. This may not be the case with your rifle and you need to determine how to properly fit the brass to your chamber. I'm just letting you know that nothing is necessarily wrong if neck turned 220 Russian brass does not chamber without the PROPER Fl sizing.
When I chamber with my reamer and go guage the brass needs to be sized slightly to chamber. You do not want to oversize the brass, just push it back enough to chamber with light pressure on the bolt handle. The other thing I learned with the PPC and custom actions is that you are never supposed to force the bolt closed. If it won't chamber easily you really do have to go back and get things set up right no matter how bad you might want to shoot it that day!
If you can possibly find someone with experience to show you it will save you a lot of aggravation.

janderson0
03-09-2009, 07:01 AM
I find that the expander does not make a sharp edge at the neck/shoulder. I find I need to size the brass to make a sharper joint. Then turning goes better, and the brass will chamber.

Jim

Codeman
03-09-2009, 08:32 AM
I only have a redding small base FL bushing die.
Do I need to get a standard FL PPC USA dieOr do I need to get a custom from Harrels?

janderson0
03-09-2009, 08:41 AM
I use a Redding body die, and the difference can be seen with the naked eye. I've read that Redding bushing dies have large neck openings, so large that one guy claims that they can be used for one size larger cartridge.

Jim

jackie schmidt
03-09-2009, 09:19 AM
I have always set my chamber dimensions to where I have to slightly bump the shoulder on a typical Lapua 220 Russian so that it chambers easilly. I just run into into a PPC die, all that hits is a narrow ring a little above the neck shoulder junction. No big deal.

I am confused about these "expander ball" statements. What are you using an expander ball for??

Al made some good points. Benchrest is a World unto its self. Many concepts that are used in the "civilian world" do not translate. There is a lot of miss information floating around that perpetuates a lot of myths.

But, you are at the right place to get the real scoop........jackie

HovisKM
03-09-2009, 09:46 AM
Last 220 russian brass I picked up is 1.540 in length. They have to be trimmed significantly before fireforming. They are to long for the chamber.

Hovis

jackie schmidt
03-09-2009, 10:00 AM
That is another advantage of blowing out the cases first, then neck turning. The shoulder is where it's supposed to be, and the length is about right.

The reason many shooters never have problems is when they neck the case up to 6mm to fit the turning mandrel, it also pushes the entire assy back, and it would fit into a 1.525 length chamber. After firing, the expansion pulled everything back to the 1.490, or there abouts, that many use as a standard trim to length..........jackie

Codeman
03-09-2009, 12:09 PM
I'll check the lenght tonight to see if that the problem.

What die should I get to bump the shoulder back for FF?
As far as expander ball I'm not sure what their referring to - I didnt make that statement

HovisKM
03-09-2009, 01:28 PM
That is another advantage of blowing out the cases first, then neck turning. The shoulder is where it's supposed to be, and the length is about right.

The reason many shooters never have problems is when they neck the case up to 6mm to fit the turning mandrel, it also pushes the entire assy back, and it would fit into a 1.525 length chamber. After firing, the expansion pulled everything back to the 1.490, or there abouts, that many use as a standard trim to length..........jackie

I agree jackie. I form my cases first, then neck turn. The last set I did. After firing the first case and inspecting, I found land marks on the neck. Bad deal I believe, but I sure could see how long my chamber and leade was. Had to trim the rest of the brass before I fired it. After trimming and firing, they came out 1.508. I then trimmed again. Next time. I'll fire one and trim them closer to where I need them so I don't have to take so much off the second time.

Hovis

Codeman
03-09-2009, 06:45 PM
My cases measure 1.500 to 1.505

Some one mentioned a standard non bushing FL die to bump back the shoulder

another said a body die (I didint think a body die touches the shoulder)

What die do I need to get to push the shoulder back so I can chamber and FF these new cases

Thanks, Cody

Codeman
03-09-2009, 08:16 PM
Well I tried Joel's instructions and I still can't close the bolt.

Length of case 1.500
Neck measures .258 (turned to .0086)


What now?

jackie schmidt
03-09-2009, 08:30 PM
I feel safe in saying that if I, or many of the other fine Posters on this Forum, had this Rifle in their hands, they could figure out what is going on in short time.

But we don't, so please, take the Rifle to someone who knows how all of this works. That's the best I can say.........jackie

zippy06
03-09-2009, 11:07 PM
Codeman.
Do you have the Redding die # 77211????

zippy06
03-09-2009, 11:21 PM
Redding die 77211. Is a bushing die. They give you an extra decapper rod.
http://www.sinclairintl.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=search&item=RD77211&type=store
This a very good picture. Bushing is yellow.
And you will need these.
http://www.sinclairintl.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=search&item=RDPU&type=store
And some bushings. .259" to start. then .258".

Jackie. That is where the expander ball comes in. Redding gives you 2 decapping rods. I guess, people see the rod in the die and assume that is the one.
A small enough bushing and the ball expander together won't work. Or you might jam the bushing and expander ball together. Some people don't read instructions or buy good books.

Codeman. Buy Mike Ratigan's book it has pictures and a good story.
And Call Sinclair. They are paid to talk.

zippy06
03-09-2009, 11:26 PM
codeman.
I went back and read some earlier posts on this thread.
Nader indicated "got it worked out".
Did ya figure it out?????

Codeman
03-10-2009, 06:45 AM
Yes Nader and I spoke yesterday.

I still cant get the redding SB bushing die to set the shoulder back on the 220 R brass enough to chamber.

But I have a standard FL die for my 22ppc, so I FL sized the new brass in the 22ppc die, and now it chambers.

I still have to expand and neck turn-I hope this will enable me to FF my new brass.


I have the Ratigan book, the Newick book and a few others and I do read instructions

zippy06
03-10-2009, 10:41 AM
On the 77211 die. My experience. And the 7th reload. The brass was sticky. I have a used rifle, also.
I screwed the die in. And ram past over cam. So I called Redding. The tech told me there is .005" play on the bottom of the die. I could send the die to them. For free, he would "polish the bottom". Polish was with 600 grit sandpaper. I did this myself. I removed .001". Ran the sticky brass in. All good now. I now have a custom die.
Here's something New from Sinclair. I made my own. So I can't give a yay or nay. Bumb gage. I hear Harrell's give you one with their dies.
http://www.sinclairintl.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=search&item=09-1000&type=store
http://www.sinclairintl.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=search&item=09-10XX&type=store
It's cool, that you got the 220R brass to load.
Have fun. :)

Boyd Allen
03-10-2009, 04:56 PM
Zippy,
Have you measured shoulder bump?

zippy06
03-10-2009, 11:20 PM
Hi Boyd.
Yes I did. The shoulder did not move. Or very little. Less than .005".
I removed about .0015" from the bottom of the die. Works great. Thanks.

alinwa
03-10-2009, 11:35 PM
Hi Boyd.
Yes I did. The shoulder did not move. Or very little. Less than .005".
I removed about .0015" from the bottom of the die. Works great. Thanks.

5 thou is 'WAYY TOO MUCH!!

You need to keep bump at a thou or less IMO.

al

Boyd Allen
03-11-2009, 12:34 AM
Zippy,
Perhaps you misplaced a zero? As Al said, .005 would be considered more than twice too much, five times what is usually the standard for Benchrest bump. I have run into this before. The truth is that if you cannot get the bolt closure that you need with a .001 bump, as compared with a case that is tight at the shoulder, you need another die, because yours is too large at the back for your chamber. That is why Lynwood Harrell is in business. At this moment he probably has a dozen different versions of a 6PPC die on the shelf, and if you send him a tight fired case, he will match it with the correct die. They are a bargain.

Codeman
03-11-2009, 03:03 PM
Well after I resized my new 220 R with my 22ppc die it chambers, but after I expand the neck it wont chamber.

Apparently the Redding small base bushing FL die wont push the shoulder back enough to chamber

I've ordered a body die from Sinclairs as per their tech Bob

ducksoup
03-11-2009, 03:49 PM
According to Redding, the 6PPC USA was the designation given to the factory Sako and Savage rifles chambered in 6PPC. The reamers used to chamber these rifles are quite a bit larger than the reamers used on a standard competition benchrest rifle. I've been using the Redding small base full length size die. I set up as indicated, I screw it down just enough so a case will chamber easily in my rifle.

alinwa
03-11-2009, 05:20 PM
OK, now where did PPC USA come from??

First of all, I've owned 4 PPC USA rifles AND ALL WERE DIFFERENT! They WOULD NOT all use the same die and settings.

Secondly, I've used 5 different 6PPC reamers, again ALL DIFFERENT. AGAIN they will not interchange.

You CANNOT just "keep screwing the die down until it chambers" (even to the point of grinding off the die) and hope you're right!

You've first of all got to MEASURE shoulder setback ........ somehow, some way it must be measured. THEN you can go after the other stuff.

If anybody here in this thread or anybody READING this thread experiences a casehead separation, please post here so we can fix it.....BEFORE someone gets hurt......

al

zippy06
03-11-2009, 10:49 PM
Case goes in the chamber. Close bolt, it goes 1/2 way closed. Easy.
What is that????
Sounds to me, like bolt pushes case shoulder, into the chamber.
Bolt closes. head of case is on the bolt head. Shoulder is hard against the the chamber.
What am I missing????????

alinwa
03-12-2009, 12:33 AM
Case goes in the chamber. Close bolt, it goes 1/2 way closed. Easy.
What is that????
Sounds to me, like bolt pushes case shoulder, into the chamber.
Bolt closes. head of case is on the bolt head. Shoulder is hard against the the chamber.
What am I missing????????

First of all, try previewing before posting and it may help with the doubles... :) .... I had this problem a couple wks ago and posted here about it. pita

Ok, a couple posts ago you said that after 7reloads your extraction was "sticky" which indicates swelling at the BASE of the case, not the shoulder. Too tight at the shoulder exhibits as "excess drag on uplift" not "sticky."

Then you posted that the shoulder moved "less than .005" ....... THIS IS TOO MUCH! Now if you measured it at "less than .0005" then we may be onto something but SOMETHING here isn't jiving! :)

Now you've posted that your bolt handle DROPS halfway and then gets stiff?

OR, does it get stiff HALFWAY IN???

Either one indicates a different condition than can be resolved by just screwing the die down.


IF you can run the bolt clear closed, drop the bolt handle down 1/2 way, and pull it back up and easily extract the case then maybe you're in tall cotton... :) ... but you DO have tapered lug seats which is another matter entire.

What's important is to KNOW that it's the shoulder that's binding up, not somewhere else.

al

zippy06
03-12-2009, 12:54 AM
First of all, try previewing before posting and it may help with the doubles... :) .... I had this problem a couple wks ago and posted here about it. pita

Ok, a couple posts ago you said that after 7reloads your extraction was "sticky" which indicates swelling at the BASE of the case, not the shoulder. Too tight at the shoulder exhibits as "excess drag on uplift" not "sticky."
I was just going to post this. I checked my notes. We are talking apples and oranges.

Then you posted that the shoulder moved "less than .005" ....... THIS IS TOO MUCH! Now if you measured it at "less than .0005" then we may be onto something but SOMETHING here isn't jiving! :)
Maybe.

Now you've posted that your bolt handle DROPS halfway and then gets stiff?
No. falls easy. Then closes firmly.

OR, does it get stiff HALFWAY IN???
Either one indicates a different condition than can be resolved by just screwing the die down.


IF you can run the bolt clear closed, drop the bolt handle down 1/2 way, and pull it back up and easily extract the case then maybe you're in tall cotton... :) ... but you DO have tapered lug seats which is another matter entire.
Not sure about this. Tapered lugs????
What's important is to KNOW that it's the shoulder that's binding up, not somewhere else.

al

Al. I understand what you are saying.
I have a .003" shim for new to hard to open brass. Remove the shim on new brass WOW. Bad JU JU. Shoulder moved .012"
On hard to open brass. It works. shouldn't but does. Then I put the shim back.
I must be doing something right. My first Score 200y. tournament. I got 250-5X.
Thanks for the help. I am all ears. Maybe to much ears. This is a major Hi-jack.
Sorry Codeman for the hijack.

243winxb
03-12-2009, 08:43 AM
I FL sized the NEW BRASS in the 22ppc die, and now it chambers.

I still have to expand and neck turn-I hope this will enable me to FF my new brass.


Remove some metal from the shell holder so you can push the shoulder back using your small base Redding 6ppc die.

243winxb
03-12-2009, 08:49 AM
Well after I resized my new 220 R with my 22ppc die it chambers, but AFTER I EXPAND THE NECK IT WON'T CHAMBER

Apparently the Redding small base bushing FL die wont push the shoulder back enough to chamber

Did you turn the brass OR JUST EXPAND IT? Remember, a bushing die does NOT size all the way to the shoulder. You need to size using a standard (no bushing) FL type die before expanding and turning. It may be better to fire form first using a filler & no bullet, or a 22caliber bullet , then neck turn your brass. That way you will know where the neck shoulder junction is located.

Codeman
03-12-2009, 04:03 PM
I'm sitting here at work thinking did I expand and neck turn or did I just expand and try to chamber. (I only tried this on one case to see if it would work)

Gotta get home and see

Ive got a 6ppc body die on the way for sizing virgin 220 brass

Hopefully this will get me ready to FF

I'm planning on using the SB bushing FL die for my normal FL sizing if I can set it up to bump just right

ADVAUTO5488
03-13-2009, 04:06 PM
Hello Codeman, I am Having the Same problem, I have a weber action, Broughton barrel in 6ppc .261 neck. I used a K&M expand iron to expand my 220 russian brass up to 6mm to turn the necks. Now I cant chamber the brass, nor will it chamber a non expanded 220 russian brass. Let me know how you fixed, or how you are going to fix your problem.
thanks Bob

Boyd Allen
03-13-2009, 10:04 PM
Some good close up pictures of your expanded turned cases showing the neck shoulder junction would really help. The only place that an expanded turned .220 Russian case will hit in a 6PPc chamber, assuming that the OAL of the case doesn't give it a problem at the neck end of the chamber, is where the neck meets the shoulder. This is because of the difference in shoulder angle and diameter between the .220 Russian and the 6PPC. If you do not complete your cut on the shoulder properly, you will probably have a problem. Words can only go so far. We need to see your work to see if it is properly done. If it has been, the only other way to go is a one piece FL die to bump the case a little in this area. This would probably have to be done by feel, because of the difference in shoulder angles, and the part of the case being bumped.