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Martin Busteed
01-27-2009, 09:05 AM
I bought some 50gr Barnes Varmint Grenades for my 22-250 and loaded them with 35.0gr of Varget. I fired 5 of these and they all went through the target sideways. I guess the twist rate of my barrel is too slow, its a weatherby red mist but I cant find anywhere what the twist rate of my barrel is. Does anyone have any idea.

Thanks for any help.

jackie schmidt
01-27-2009, 09:15 AM
Start the rod with a good tight patch, (or a brush), and put a mark on a small piece of tape on the top about 15 inches from your bore guide. Make a note of the exact measurement. Push the rod in untill it make one complete revolution,, (you will have tojudge this), then measure the distance again, subtracting this from the initial measurement. If it advanced 10 inches, then it is a 1-10, and so on.........jackie

VarmintGuy
01-27-2009, 10:59 AM
Martin Busteed: On the Weatherby "online site" all the Weatherby's I could find specifications on, showed a twist rate of 1 in 14".
Now I have not as yet owned a Weatherby Rifle in caliber 22-250 Remington but I have owned a LOT of other Rifles in caliber 22-250 Remington that had 1 in 14" twist barrels. I have NEVER had a 50 grain bullet "keyhole" (fail to stabilize!) in these Rifles!
My 224 Weatherby shoots 50 grain bullets just fine!
I am truly puzzled as to what may be wrong with your loads/Rifle?
I am continuing my search for a clue.
What model IS your Weatherby again?
Good luck!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Larry Elliott
01-27-2009, 11:01 AM
I haven't seen any Barnes Varmint Grenade's in person, but since the core is a tin/copper mixture it's lighter than a lead core. It's the length of a bullet not the weight that determines the twist needed, and I'd be willing to bet that these at 50 gr are likely as long as 55's or 60's with lead core. The 35(?) gr Varmint Grenades will likely work well.

VarmintGuy
01-27-2009, 11:25 AM
Larry Elliot: "IF" the 50 grain Varmint Grenade bullet is more like the "length of a 55 to 60 grain bullet" AND the length of the bullet vs. the twist rate, IS the determining stabilizing factor - then I have even MORE experience with them going through the target "point on" from my 1 in 14" twist barrels!
I am still searching for a Weatherby in 22-250 Remington that is anything other than 1 in 14" twist.
Maybe that is where the problem originates - his Rifle has an odd twist?
Its hard for me to imagine the "Varmint Grenade" folks (Barnes) designing and then producing a 22 caliber 50 grain bullet that will not easily stabilize in a 1 in 14" twist barrel?
Martin Busteed's "load" seems to be right in the middle of the Hodgdon folks load recommendations so that is probably not the source of de-stabilization!
Hmmm.....
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Max Shaffer
01-27-2009, 12:05 PM
you loaded any other brand of bullets? Maybe you need to try another brand of 50 gr and maybe some 55 & 60 grain bullets also. I always wondered why there are no 57 or 58 grain .224 bullets. There are several 52 and 53 grain 224 bullets.

Larry Elliott
01-27-2009, 12:07 PM
Varmint Guy,
Uh, bullet length is the determining factor on bullet twist required. A well established fact, check the literature.

I've never used Varmint Grenade bullets, have no experience with them other than having seen ads and pictures of them in magazines. From the pictures it looks like the 35 gr version is about as long as a "normal" 50 gr. As an example 75 gr Hornady HPBT match bullets will usually stabilize from a 1 in 9 barrel, while their 75 gr A Max won't because it's longer.

There are .22 centerfires with faster than 1 in 14" twist barrels including most .223 Rems. The standard twist in .223's has been 1 in 12, and now seems to be 1 in 9. A .22-250 is likely to have a 1 in 14 barrel, and this one might be slower. Some .22-250's don't stabilize 55 gr Ballistic Tips well because they're longer than "normal" 55's.

alinwa
01-27-2009, 12:21 PM
To measure he twist lay a strip of masking tape lengthwise and iron it onto the rod. Now take a Sharpie and drag a line down the top, use the edge of the tape overlap to be really precise.

Now start the rod into the bore and when the line on the rod lines up with something on the action, mark it....... run it in til it comes back around to the index again and mark it.


Measure between the marks.


al

HovisKM
01-27-2009, 12:34 PM
I had a Ruger 6ppc varmit that did the same thing with Hornady SXSP. I could shoot bergers or sierra's with no problem. Inside the muzzle looked very bad (reamer marks on top of the lands). I kept cutting the muzzle back until it looked better and the problem went away. I guess it was the thin jacket and rough lands. I talked to a lot of older varmit shooters at that time and they all said the only time they had key hole problems was with thin explosive bullets when the twist was right.

Hovis

Ackleyredmist
01-27-2009, 01:08 PM
I've been hearing alot of problems with the heavier vg bullets not stabilizing in factory twist rates due to their length

Brian Voelker
01-27-2009, 04:29 PM
It takes a 9 twist to stabilize that bullet. Call the manufacture for recommendations. Made for the no lead varmint zones in California. Do a search on the varmint boards for recommendations.
BV

Big Al
01-27-2009, 05:08 PM
It takes a 9 twist to stabilize that bullet. Call the manufacture for recommendations. Made for the no lead varmint zones in California. Do a search on the varmint boards for recommendations.
BV



If that is the case, does it mean these bullets are OK to shoot condors with?

Barnes should have called these bullets "Condors".:D

alinwa
01-27-2009, 06:11 PM
I've been hearing alot of problems with the heavier vg bullets not stabilizing in factory twist rates due to their length


Just to clarify,

EVERY bullet company makes bullets which will not stabilize in factory twists..... this is not a "problem," it's just misuse of fine products.

The real "problem" is that people get into reloading without taking the time to educate themselves. Ignorance often creates "problems."


In ANY endeavor :)

al

rrendina
01-27-2009, 06:43 PM
It takes a 9 twist to stabilize that bullet. Call the manufacture for recommendations. Made for the no lead varmint zones in California. Do a search on the varmint boards for recommendations.
BV
Yep, right on the money.

I just loaded several hundred 36 gr VG's. They are almost exactly the same length as my Berger 55 gr bullets. Barnes recommends a faster twist with the 50 gr VG's but 1:14 is godd with the 36gr's

Wish those dang Condors would drink the Kool-aid and disappear so we can get back to the relatively less expensive led core stuff.

savage12LRPV
01-27-2009, 08:29 PM
I shoot the 50 gr. in a 223 with 1:7 twist and they shoot great. They are close to the same size as nosler 80 gr. bullets but the 50 gr. VG has a larger contact area then the 80 gr. nosler.

Martin Busteed
01-28-2009, 06:26 AM
Thank you for replys

I guess I will buy some 36gr varmint grenades. My rifle does stabilize 52gr sierra's so it must be the length of the vg's.

Ackleyredmist
01-28-2009, 12:00 PM
Al, i greatly apologize for my horrible misuse of the word problem. i guess i should have said i've read and heard of many people having an ISSUE with them. i guess many people buy them seeing them as a 50gr varmint bullet and not thinking about the twist, being used to 50gr bullets. there's no reason to bash them for it or call them ignorant. the idea behind these forums is to help people out, not beat them up for things they dont know, maybe they're new to reloading

Larry Elliott
01-28-2009, 12:10 PM
Does Barnes mention that a 1 in 9 twist is generally needed to stabilize the 50's on the bullet label. Sierra and Hornady both label their longer bullets as requiring faster twist barrels.

Last week I was in a local store and one of the guys from the gun department was telling a guy that a 1 in 14" was faster than a 1 in 10" twist because the 1 in 14 would turn a bullet 14 times while the 1 in 10 would only turn it 10 times. :eek: I nearly opened my mouth and said something, but they walked off before I could. The level of general expertise is sort of amazing to me. :rolleyes:

alinwa
01-28-2009, 07:30 PM
....... "there's no reason to bash them for it or call them ignorant." .....


Here's part of the problem, "bashing them for it" and "calling them ignorant" are two entirely different concepts. "Bashing" someone is like hitting them in the face, it's violent rude and wrong for nearly any circumstance. "Calling them ignorant" is YOUR turn of my phrase.... and even then calling someone ignorant is generally just a statement of fact, it's not negative in any way.


I'm IGNORANT on the subject of cooking with a wok. So what? If I stepped out and started "wok cooking" I'd screw up a lot of meals... again SO WHAT?... it's part of the learning curve.


Ignorance is just lack of knowledge..... why does the average American male equate a lack of knowledge with "bashing" or other negativity? Well, we all know why but hey, let's GET OVER IT eh?

Education is the answer.

al

savage12LRPV
01-28-2009, 07:37 PM
Last week I was in a local store and one of the guys from the gun department was telling a guy that a 1 in 14" was faster than a 1 in 10" twist because the 1 in 14 would turn a bullet 14 times while the 1 in 10 would only turn it 10 times. I nearly opened my mouth and said something, but they walked off before I could. The level of general expertise is sort of amazing to me.


WAS THIS IN A BIG GUN STORE LIKE CABELAS BY ANY CHANCE? THATS THE STUFF I HEAR IN THE ONE BY ME, I GET A GOOD GIGGLE OUT OF IT. BUT IT SCARES THE HECK OUT OF ME CAUSE THE SAME PEOPLE HELP PEOPLE WITH RELOADING QUESTIONS:confused:

VarmintGuy
01-28-2009, 08:30 PM
Gentlemen: I have to include myself in the "ignorant" category in this regard!
I was ignorant that the Varmint Grenade bullets require (or are designed for special barrel twists - or out of the norm barrel twists!) special handling.
I went down to my local tiny pawn/sport shop to solve this situation and looked over the Varmint Grenade bullets there.
The 22 caliber 36 grain bullets had NO warning that special twist rates may apply!
They had NO 22 caliber 50 grain Varmint Grenades there to check on.
The 243 caliber Varmint Grenades DID HAVE a special twist rate notice prominently printed on the end flap area of the plastic boxed bullets - well the warning was where "end flaps" would be on the old timey bullet boxes.
I was so disgusted that I left the store without memorizing or writing down the twist designation or the weight of those 24 caliber Varmint Grenades.
I have enough things to worry about, try to keep straight and have to remember AND I don't live in Californicopia - needless to say I won't be buying or trying any Varmint Grenades in my Varminters.
There are just to many wonderful Varminting bullets out there now - I do not feel lacking in any Varminting applications.
I feel enlightened now that this halo of ignorance has been lifted from my brow.
I am still dumbfounded though - that anyone would intentionally design and produce a 50 grain Varmint bullet that won't stabilize in the most common of 22-250 twist rates!
Maybe there is a need?
Catchy name though - Varmint Grenades!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

J. Valentine
01-28-2009, 11:03 PM
With a 22-250 you will need closer to a 1 in 10 to stabalise a 50 grain varmint grenade.
It is long for its weight and the fact that the ogive is hollow makes the center of pressure and gravity move way back on the bullet mass.
This creates a situation where the bullet is more susceptible to upset during initial flight and during transition of the sound barrier at longer range.
I class this bullet design as a faulty concept .

Ackleyredmist
01-28-2009, 11:25 PM
Al, its arm-chair jockeys like you that make the guys that might be new to this sport not want to ask questions and educate themselves.

alinwa
01-29-2009, 12:24 AM
Al, its arm-chair jockeys like you that make the guys that might be new to this sport not want to ask questions and educate themselves.

define arm chair jockey.


What's with the attitude?





al

alinwa
01-29-2009, 12:27 AM
With a 22-250 you will need closer to a 1 in 10 to stabalise a 50 grain varmint grenade.
It is long for its weight and the fact that the ogive is hollow makes the center of pressure and gravity move way back on the bullet mass.
This creates a situation where the bullet is more susceptible to upset during initial flight and during transition of the sound barrier at longer range.
I class this bullet design as a faulty concept .



Whoahhh there Mr Valentine.... :)


Where did the idea that rearward CG is bad originate? I've always thought that instability occurs when the CG gets too far FORWARD, too near center.... and what do you mean "the center of pressure and gravity" ?

What gives?


al

Who Me?
01-29-2009, 08:40 AM
Just to lighten the mood a little. I once had a girlfriend that used to tell me... "I'm ignorant, I'm not stupid!" She was right and it made me think. :cool: My wife had a friend in high school named Jane (unfortunately) about the time Saturday Night Live was first on the air. So naturally kids used to say to her, "Jane, you ignorant slut" (a line from the SNL Show). To which Jane would reply, "I am not ignorant!" :eek: :D

Ackleyredmist
01-29-2009, 09:13 AM
Al, the attitude came from your comment about my post out of a handful because i used the word problem when i guess i should have used issue. not really an attitude though. as far as armchair jockey, come on, you have to know the guys that have nothing better to do than sit in their chair in front of a computer screen punching keys on forums all day. talking about everything instead of getting out and doing it. most of them not having a clue as to whats really going on. from what i've read lately you do know whats going on so it really doesn't fit though. i guess another poor choice of words on my part. i do have to stand with you 100% on the rearward center of gravity

VarmintGuy
01-29-2009, 10:26 AM
GENTLEMEN, GENTLEMEN!
PUHLEEEZZE!
Now back to the subject at hand, I went back to my pawn/sport shop and double checked the Varmint Grenade boxes for "warnings".
There were NO WARNINGS on the 20 caliber 26 grain Varmint Grenades!
There were NO WARNINGS on the 22 caliber 36 grain Varmint Grenades!
There WAS A WARNING on the 24 caliber 62 grain Varmint Grenades - the warning read "recommended twist rate is 1 in 10" or faster"!
Hmm.... I agree this is a line of bullets waiting to cause "headaches" - not for the Varmints but for the reloader/SHOOTER!
Hey you Californicopians - be a little more careful who you vote for!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Larry Elliott
01-29-2009, 12:50 PM
Saw a video on these bullets a while back and it looks like they work as advertised, but it's sort of strange that the 50 gr .224's don't have a warning. Sound like they might be a good bullet from a 1 in 9 barrel on larger varmints than prairie dogs. The lighter ones should make good launch instruments for sod poodles, but since they're more than V-Max's I'll stick with them.

No condors in Montana, but I'm sure that the fools will pretty soon be telling us how we're killing off vultures, coyotes, foxes, and whatever else cleans up shot up dog towns from using lead core bullets.

VarmintGuy
01-29-2009, 01:40 PM
Larry Elliott: The shop I was in did not have ANY 22 caliber 50 grain Varmint Grenades - so "I" don't know if there is a warning on those boxes of bullets or not?
I am not sure if you are wondering about the missing "warning" from my posts or from the original posters post.
Anyway I don't know if there IS a warning on the 50 grainers.
I have called the law enforement folks twice here in Montana regarding Eagles that were injured and beside the highways!
They come out and roundup the Eagles and take them to the Bird Sanctuary folks for repairs.
And the repairs they need are caused by collisions with vehicles. The Eagles eat on various animals that are road killed and they often "over-indulge" on the meat - this changes their "take-off" abilities and then cars or trucks come along and bonk them!
This is what the law enforcement types tell me anyway.
My point is - I am surprised at how many Eagles, Owls, Hawks and Falcons I see laying beside the highways here in Montana!
I am sure that cars and trucks kill more Birds of Prey (by a factor of 1,000 to 1!) than spent lead bullets do!
My wife has personally wiped out TWO Great Horned Owls with her Jeepster in the past 10 years!
One took out the power antenae and the other took out the grill - both were expensive fixes - but more importantly these wonderful birds were mortified!
I can't see the lead bullet ban as being anything but an oblique (round about!) attack on Hunters!
Knock on wood the "odd thinkers" (fools as you so aptly describe them!) won't begin that Californicopia type stuff here in the Rockies!
I think I saw the video you are referring to and that was interesting and entertaining!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGUy

Larry Elliott
01-29-2009, 02:17 PM
Varmint Guy, since you didn't mention the 50 gr .22's I should have probably figured that none were in stock. :o

A lot of critters seem to think that highways are the place to be, then the scavengers are there to clean up. I'm sure that you're right that more scavengers of all kinds die from run-ins with vehicles than from eating lead fragments. Unfortunately crows always seem to leave their meal before I get there with my truck, and I've only ever killed one bird with a vehicle - a robin that dive-bombed the front edge of a '64 Plymouth I had centuries ago.

Of course PETA thinks that the only reason wild animals are killed on roads is because they're running away from those evil hunters. Which likely explains those killed in the middle of the summer. :rolleyes:

rrendina
01-29-2009, 06:38 PM
GENTLEMEN, GENTLEMEN!
Hey you Californicopians - be a little more careful who you vote for!
VarmintGuy
Excuse me but......

It doesn't appear to matter whom conservatives or gun owners vote for in this state. You just cant get some one elected to office with out the votes from San Fran Sicko and Los Angeles(New Azteca). Even if we do elect a Republican Governor, some one I didn't vote for, he signs just about every anti gun anti hunting bill that comes across his desk. The man breasted Austrian has stuck it to us.

I am open to reasonable suggestions.

Hopeless in Kalifornia.............................

Larry Elliott
01-29-2009, 09:40 PM
I truly feel sorry for the sane people in Kalifornia, my wife's sister lives there, but there seem to be a whole lot of ding-dongs who either don't vote or vote for the person who says they'll give them the most goodies. As soon as people figure out that they can enrich themselves through the government the system is toast. They have, it is. :mad:

langenc
01-29-2009, 09:51 PM
We will see a push everywhere for no lead in the near future. Included will be no lead shotshells for all hunting.

rrendina
01-29-2009, 11:01 PM
We will see a push everywhere for no lead in the near future. Included will be no lead shotshells for all hunting.

Followed by non Mercury primers and hulls made of a yet to be invented expensive, environmentally friendly material made in China, that eventually it will be discovered is made with toxic led paint.

We will be forced to capture the birds by hand, then push the all copper pellets in by hand.

Bnhpr
01-30-2009, 06:44 AM
Barnes bullets are garbage. Don't waste powder on them. If you want to see varmints explode, you have to hit them first. The 50-55 gr Sierra is what you should be loading. The 50 gr ballistic tip shoots well in mine also. 41 gr H380

22-250 is normally 14 twist, check with your cleaning rod and let us know.

I sat on an airplane next to an engineer that had previously worked for Barnes, designing bullets. he told me they used software from the Navy that was originally used to design submarines....Although an interesting conversation.....I did mention several bad experiences I had with their bullets, including the horrible coppering you get from them.

Ben

rrendina
01-30-2009, 11:34 AM
Barnes bullets are garbage. Don't waste powder on them. If you want to see varmints explode, you have to hit them first. The 50-55 gr Sierra is what you should be loading.

Here in Southern Kaliforina we would love to use the Sierra's but they have that evil, disenfranchising led in them. we have been forced, with the blessing of Ah-Nold, to use the Barnes. It's all about the Condor, and the environment, and making it more expensive to shoot and the children and Gorebal warming etc... Get it?

Part of the Change we have been promised...

BTW: my 22-250 shoots 36 grainers .489" @100, they aint Berger's but good enough for Coyote's

Bnhpr
01-30-2009, 06:46 PM
I apologize fo' the 20M Communists in CA.

East and north of you, not too far..is more gun friendly.....

J. Valentine
01-30-2009, 07:31 PM
Whoahhh there Mr Valentine.... :)


Where did the idea that rearward CG is bad originate? I've always thought that instability occurs when the CG gets too far FORWARD, too near center.... and what do you mean "the center of pressure and gravity" ?

What gives?


al

Too far forward is bad also as far as I understand . There is a center of gravity and a center of pressure and they are related to how well a bullet resists upsett during initial passage through the muzzel blast area and coming back down through the sound barrier.
A bullet should have its CG behind the Center of Pressure but I think the design of the varmint grenade moves it back too far and that is why it is hard to stabalize in addition to its length . If you have the right twist and you can get them shooting accurately then they may be ok as they will explode as they say but I still don't like the design .
I am not going to argue with you Al that is my opinion take it or leave it.

Experiences of other shooters :----
I posted this on another thread, but thought I'd start a new one and try for more responses.

My first trial with a box of 50 Gr Barnes Varmint Grenades thru an AR with 1 / 9 twist and they went thru the paper target sideways! These bullets were given to me since they couldn't stabilize them in his rifle with 1/14 twist.
These 50gr Varmint Grenades are very long for their weight. The box has a sticker saying 1/10 or tighter recommended.

They were loaded with 26gr & 27gr of Varget. CCI 42 Primer in LC brass. I didn't chrono them. Hodgdon's data show approx. 3200 to 3300 fpm

They are fragile at the hollow tip and my seating die was indenting a "ring" in them. This is in a New Hornady die with the follower in it.

Any suggestions on the proper way to seat these bullets without damage?

Maybe they need 1/7 twist?

thehippy77
01-30-2009, 08:58 PM
I had the same thing today with a redding micro seater and 68g bthp (.224)hornady. Some help for both of us please.

alinwa
01-30-2009, 11:57 PM
Too far forward is bad also as far as I understand . There is a center of gravity and a center of pressure and they are related to how well a bullet resists upsett during initial passage through the muzzel blast area and coming back down through the sound barrier.
A bullet should have its CG behind the Center of Pressure but I think the design of the varmint grenade moves it back too far and that is why it is hard to stabalize in addition to its length . If you have the right twist and you can get them shooting accurately then they may be ok as they will explode as they say but I still don't like the design .
I am not going to argue with you Al that is my opinion take it or leave it.

Experiences of other shooters :----
I posted this on another thread, but thought I'd start a new one and try for more responses.

My first trial with a box of 50 Gr Barnes Varmint Grenades thru an AR with 1 / 9 twist and they went thru the paper target sideways! These bullets were given to me since they couldn't stabilize them in his rifle with 1/14 twist.
These 50gr Varmint Grenades are very long for their weight. The box has a sticker saying 1/10 or tighter recommended.

They were loaded with 26gr & 27gr of Varget. CCI 42 Primer in LC brass. I didn't chrono them. Hodgdon's data show approx. 3200 to 3300 fpm

They are fragile at the hollow tip and my seating die was indenting a "ring" in them. This is in a New Hornady die with the follower in it.

Any suggestions on the proper way to seat these bullets without damage?

Maybe they need 1/7 twist?


Well, now I know where you're coming from. :)


thanks

al

VarmintGuy
01-31-2009, 11:53 AM
I wanted closure for this Barnes Varmint Grenade situation.
I have already decided they would NOT be worth the trouble for my needs, but I wanted to know how the Barnes folks go about informing their customers and potential customers about the need for "special" twist rates in their Rifles to attain stability with their products.
I did NOT drive all the way to Kalifornicopia to get a Barnes 2,008 catalog but I did drive quite a ways!
I turned my 2,008 Barnes hard copy, glossy catalog to the full page dedicated to the attributes of the Varmint Grenade bullets.
No where on that page does there appear a notification nor a warning that their Varmint Grenades need special twist rates!
Nor is there a warning visible on the green Varmint Grenade box that is pictured on that page!
Hmmm....!
Then I go back to the free DVD that I obtained from a sportshop regarding Barnes bullets and their attributes some time ago.
I do NOT recall that video mentioning the special twist rates needed for their Varmint Grenade line of bullets!
Granted the folks in Kalifornicopia voted themselves into this mess - this need for leadless projectiles - and it appears the nice folks at Barnes are trying to keep the Kalifornicopians shooting - BUT I feel they should be a little more "up front" with people contemplating buying their bullets!
Case closed.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

alinwa
01-31-2009, 05:57 PM
Varmint Guy, upon thinking this over I have to agree with your logic on this one, they SHOULD post a warning on the box......


al

rrendina
01-31-2009, 07:12 PM
Does Sierra and other bullet manufactures place warnings about twist rates on the box of their .224" 70, 80, 90 gr, VLD bullets? No, it's in the Sierra loading manual, exactly where Barns has their warnings.

I am not a fan of the Varmint Grenades, that being said I am thankful someone is producing bullets I can use in SO Cal for varmint hunting.

Also, most loaders would not think about the length of the bullet rather than load for the weight. If you do, you get an unstabilized bullet and the lack of accuracy that follows.

So where is the the big crime Barnes has committed here? How has anyone here been harmed by the twist rate recommendations?

Much fuss over nothing?

VarmintGuy
02-01-2009, 01:00 PM
Rrendina: No one said that Barnes was committing any type of "crime" except YOU!
And if YOU want to make EXCUSES for really poor and pathetic planning and public relations on behalf of the Barnes bullet people - be MY guest!
Over-looking just the exact bizarre and wasteful outcome that the original poster in this thread has NO rational basis!
That poster suffered at the hands of the Barnes people!
PERIOD!
Again OVER-LOOK it if YOU wish but I won't!
I will repeat - "I have NEVER had trouble with a 50 grain bullet of any manufacture KEYHOLING in any of my many 22-250's"! EVER.
Of WHAT use is a Barnes bullet that KEYHOLES in one of the most popular and common Rifles to be had?
The Barnes folks have tried to fill a niche and that is commendable - but to do so in such a poorly thought through manner is a sign of seriously poor judgement.
Again "no crime" - just poorly thought through planning and policy - bordering on deceit!
In order to go along with your RATIONALIZATIONS a person would HAVE TO completely ignore the obvious - "the obvious" demonstrated by the original posters trials and tribulations with the Varmint Grenades keyholing in his common Rifle.
I am not willing to ignore that.
Let me ask you directly there rrendina - HOW do you ratinionalize away the FACT that the Barnes people did not mention once - in any way, shape or form anywhere in their 2,008 catalog that you need special twist rates in your Rifle to stabilize this line of Barnes bullets???
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

rrendina
02-01-2009, 04:22 PM
Varmint Guy, I did not say they committed a crime, look at the post, I ask where is the crime they committed?
I don't have the catalog but the website clearly states the recommended twist rate, have a look: http://www.barnesbullets.com/products/rifle/varmint-grenade/

Everyone I know that has had to load the Barnes VG's was aware of the twist rate prior to purchasing the bullets. As stated prior, I don't care for the VG's, and I didn't appreciate the way Barns threw us here in California under the buss with there miss information to our legislature, that contributed to the led ban that we are complying with now.

The original poster assumed the bullets would work in his rifle. Only after he loaded and found out he had problems did he begin his research. Much advice was given, some better than others. I don't think he has yet discovered what twist his rifle is, but he did mention he was going to load the 36 gr and give them a try. I hope he posts the results. I wish him luck.

Larry Elliott
02-02-2009, 01:04 PM
Just looked on the Midsouth Shooters Supply website and when I finally found the 50 gr Barnes Varmint Grenades the website clearly shows that these bullets require a minimum 1 in 9" twist. In fact they listed faster than "normal" twist rates for many of the Barnes no lead bullets because they're all longer than a lead cored bullet. The next time I'm out looking around I might see if anybody has any of the 50 gr VG's to check the label.

Maybe they got complaints, and added a label warning.

VarmintGuy
02-02-2009, 01:46 PM
Rredina: AGAIN - YOU are the one mentioning crimes!
No one else.
I am accusing the Barnes people of not adequately informing their potential customers of the problems with their Varmint Grenade bullets.
And again I ask, how and then WHY do you rationalize shortcomings of the Barnes folks in adequately describing to potential buyers of their bullet the need for special twist rates.
I told you of the lack of "NOTIFICATION" I have found, and exactly where it was lacking.
Now, AGAIN I ask of you, will you please tell me how YOU rationalize this away?
Everyone YOU know, MAY, be aware of the specialized twist rate requirement - but I did not know that and I watched the Barnes video and I did not see it in their catalog and I did not see it on the 20 and 22 caliber projectiles AND the original poster was obviously not aware of it - so why do YOU try to rationalize away this poor merchandising by the Barnes folks?
Are YOU affiliated with the Barnes people - even though you don't use their products?
Mr. Elliott correctly implies that EVERY box of Barnes bullets that requires a special (out of the norm!) twist rate should have a WARNING on the box!
And I agree with that!
And I know for a fact, that is NOT the case.
Shooters don't normally take a computer with them to the sport shop when they want to buy some bullets - so they can look up the "Midway USA" site for "warnings", that rationalization of yours is also defunct!
IF you are aware of the Barnes folks somehow making things more difficult for shooters in Kalifornicopia then why in the world man, would you try to rationalize anything on their behalf???
Wow - you take the cake!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

rrendina
02-02-2009, 02:47 PM
Rredina: AGAIN - YOU are the one mentioning crimes!

SCREW YOUR EYEBALLS IN TIGHTER PLEASE ! I have not accused them of any crime, I ask where is the crime they have committed ?

No one else.
I am accusing the Barnes people of not adequately informing their potential customers of the problems with their Varmint Grenade bullets.
And again I ask, how and then WHY do you rationalize shortcomings of the Barnes folks in adequately describing to potential buyers of their bullet the need for special twist rates.

I am not rationalizing anything, just pointing out the fact that other manufactures also require special twist rates on certain longer bullets and do not advertise that fact other than in the loading manual

but I did not know that and I watched the Barnes video and I did not see it in their catalog and I did not see it on the 20 and 22 caliber projectiles AND the original poster was obviously not aware of it - so why do YOU try to rationalize away this poor merchandising by the Barnes folks?

The problem appears to be that YOU mister Varmint Guy did not know the twist rate and someone as smart as you would have known that, and you don't like the fact they require a different twist rat because all your rifles shoot 55's just fine.

Are YOU affiliated with the Barnes people - even though you don't use their products?

ONCE AGAIN, SCREW IN YOUR EYEBALLS OR HAVE AN ADULT READ THE POSTS TO YOU. In several postings I stated that I am using the VG's due to the regulations here. Your replied, you do remember when you replied? It was to attack Californians for voting in these people, as if conservatives and gun owners would do just that ?

Mr. Elliott correctly implies that EVERY box of Barnes bullets that requires a special (out of the norm!) twist rate should have a WARNING on the box!
And I agree with that!

I don't disagree with that but they and the other bullet manufactures don't place any warnings that I am aware of other than to specify "22 Hornet" or " not for use in guns with tubular magazines"

Shooters don't normally take a computer with them to the sport shop when they want to buy some bullets - so they can look up the "Midway USA" site for "warnings", that rationalization of yours is also defunct!

No they don't take a computer but they should do the ground work prior to purchasing components. Would you buy a vehicle only to find out later it must run on premium fuel? I think not.

IF you are aware of the Barnes folks somehow making things more difficult for shooters in Kalifornicopia then why in the world man, would you try to rationalize anything on their behalf???
I am not sticking up for Barns any more than I am sticking up for the other company's that share the EXACT business practices.

Until other bullet manufactures begin delivering led free bullets to California we are stuck with the Barns.

You can spin this any way you like, you like warning labels, fine . Would you wait for the warning labels to be printed on the Cigarette packs before you knew they were bad for you , then quit? I think not.

Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

You enjoy attacking California assuming all the shooters here voted for the liberals and that couldn't be farther than the truth.

VarmintGuy
02-02-2009, 05:14 PM
Redina: I don't smoke!
So don't get off in that tangental direction - that would be as useless as you wondering what crime the Barnes folks have committed.
By the way - not only myself but countless millions of other sportsmen don't want what you allow to go on in Kalifornicopia to SPREAD!
Don't try to blame me for your collective Kalifornicopia shortcomings.
The problem is with YOU, trying, to rationalize the Barnes folks manufacturing a 50 grain bullet in 22 caliber that won't stabilize in 98% of the factory twist barrels 22 caliber barrels!
I won't let you get away with that kind of ridiculousness!
It appears you are now convinced there is no crime committed by the Barnes folks - right!
Well hooray for you - then don't mention them being accused of any crimes again.
Why did you bring it up in the first place?
You are trying to defend yourself and your ridiculous rationalizations by burping up Red Herrings?
Thats pointless and puzzling.
What I do accuse them of, I'll repeat for you, and ask AGAIN, why are you standing up for them - "I am accusing the Barnes people of not adequately informing their potential customers of the problems with their Varmint Grenade bullets".
No crimes, just really poor merchandising and planning - bordering on the deceitful, I will add.
You post - "I am not sticking up for Barns (sp) any more than I am sticking up for the other company's that share the EXACT business practices".
I simply must ask you what "other company's" make a 22 caliber 50 grain bullet that won't stabilize in 98% of the factory 22 caliber barrels? And then NOT informing the public of special needs with this bullet!
And instead of answering this question directly I am predicting you will wander off in another useless tangental bout of bizzarreness!
You've already done it rredin you have "taken the cake" - don't try for the booby prize now!
Barnes has committed a faux pas with the 50 grain Varmint Grenades and no amount of witless rationalization will undo that.
The only remedy is for the Barnes people to try to convince folks like the original poster to re-barrel their Rifles so they can keep using these difficult to stabilize bullets!
Fat chance of that!
Don't you think the Barnes folks should publish the special twist rates needed in their OWN catalog?
Again, I commend the Barnes folks for TRYING to fill a niche for you Kalifornicopians its just that they fell quite a bit short in informing the shooting public regarding the "special needs" in this line of bullets.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

rrendina
02-02-2009, 05:59 PM
You have been added to the list of people I pray for.

savage12LRPV
02-02-2009, 06:54 PM
the warning and twist rate recomendations!

rrendina
02-02-2009, 06:59 PM
Interesting :eek:

Is that something new or have they always had the twist rate on the 50 grain .224 box?

savage12LRPV
02-02-2009, 07:48 PM
its not new, that box is from when they came out, so everyone crying about
it just needs to look at the box and the new boxes are the same.
i love them and they shoot great out of my savage and my friends rock riv.
PEOPLE JUST NEED TO READ THE BOX THATS ALL?;)

savage12LRPV
02-02-2009, 08:05 PM
Some more examples for rrendina!

rrendina
02-02-2009, 08:31 PM
Before I started to load the VG's I contacted Barnes and spoke to a customer service guy, he put me on to the 36 grainer's and explained why the 50's wouldn't work in my rifle. I haven't seen a box of the 50's until your post 12LRVP, thanks for the visual.

But I am not the one complaining about the warning on the box either.
Let me quote VarmintGuy:


I am accusing the Barnes people of not adequately informing their potential customers of the problems with their Varmint Grenade bullets.
and

really poor and pathetic planning and public relations on behalf of the Barnes bullet people
and

The Barnes folks have tried to fill a niche and that is commendable - but to do so in such a poorly thought through manner is a sign of seriously poor judgement
and

it appears the nice folks at Barnes are trying to keep the Kalifornicopians shooting - BUT I feel they should be a little more "up front" with people contemplating buying their bullets!

Enough, I have a headache

savage12LRPV
02-02-2009, 08:45 PM
I was not trying to be mean or a jerk, just trying to help cause i shoot the heavy stuff and just wanted the facts out there, the only thing that i shoot that does not have a recomendation is nosler but its an 80 gr. custom comp and i think it shoots the best out of a 1:7 twist. rrendina if you have questions on the 223 stuff ask cause i shoot it way to much and almost everything i have is 223 or 556 other than my 30-30 pistol and my 44 rem mag pistol by TC and love them for hog hunting.

rrendina
02-02-2009, 08:56 PM
Thanks for the offer. I just loaded a few hundred rounds of the 36 gr VG's for the .223 just to be in compliance. I obtained the data from the Barnes reloading manual. I was not looking for single hole accuracy out of these due to the rifle they will be fired in but they did group 1" @100 yards, that was better than I expected. This rifle had a 1 in 9 twist so I can fire the longer bullets in it but I don't think I'll bother right now, have to wait and see how this no led thing plays out.

BTW, today I received my order of Berger .224" 55gr Moly bullets. I had to laugh, right on the box, "For 1 in 14 twist or faster"

VarmintGuy
02-02-2009, 10:28 PM
Rredina: Well it looks like you have lost the argument as you have now resorted to the immature tactic of calling names!
And I quote your post:
VarmintGuy, "you have been added to the list of people I pray for.
YOU IDIOT "!

Now calling me an idiot does not solve this situation!
And you calling me an idiot is beneath the dignity of this board!
I suggest you apologize!

Back to the situation of Barnes inadequacy in warning folks about the special needs of their bullets!
Aren't most factory Rifles that shoot 22 caliber bullets capable of stabilizing your 55 grain Berger bullets - in other words AREN'T MOST FACTORY RIFLES in caliber 22-250 Remington using twists of 1 in 14"?
I checked the Sako site - their 22-250's are all 1 in 14" twist!
I checked the Ruger site - their 22-250's are all 1 in 14" twist!
I checked most of the Remington site and all I could find there was 1 in 14" twist in their 22-250 Rifles!
Well it was nice of the Berger folks to "warn" everyone about the need to use their 55 grain bullets in 1 in 14" twist Rifles!
Duhh....
I went to Bergers website and they (like the Barnes folks catalog) had no "warning", warning people about any special needs with either of their two 55 grain 22 caliber offerings!
Nor their 50 grain offerings.
What does the rate of twist notification on a box of Berger bullets telling folks "in effect" to go ahead and use them in most all Rifles, have to do with the Barnes bullets needing special twist rate barrels to shoot a common bullet weight lest they "keyhole"?
SO - you had to CALL the Barnes folks to find out the 50 grain bullets wouldn't work in your Rifle - you, rredina, have MADE MY CASE!
Save your prayers and your name calling for your own personal needs!
I am doing just FINE without either of them!
Especially, don't demean the decorum of this site by calling other well intentioned posters who you can't keep up with, "idiots"!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

rrendina
02-02-2009, 10:34 PM
If I give you a quarter will you go away?

DR4NRA
02-03-2009, 12:38 AM
Hey Rendina, Feel sorry for you. It would be a down right bitch to have to go lead free. With things as they are we all might be seeing more of this.
Nuff said

Funny, I think Jackie may have hit on the answer right off the bat. I own 3, 243 caliber rifles. One and old M77 Ruger heavy barrell shoots anything from 55 to 75 just great, 2 Remmys will shoot 75 to 100 just dandy, the remmys get better as the bullet weight goes up, but you put 55- 70 through the remmys, they shoot terrible. The Ruger is the opposite, it will not shoot heavier bullets.

Same caliber 3 rifles, diffrence is the Ruger has a 1:12 twist, the remmys are 1:10 twist. No info is available on the old Ruger so had to use Jackies method many years ago. Things arent always a standard. Especially where the original poster is from.

And No. Even if You give him a Buck he wont go away :D

rrendina
02-03-2009, 07:47 AM
The led free will eventually spread to other states. Weather it to "protect" Eagles or the environment, the excuse will be made.

The anti's have just discovered another tool to use against us. It was pointed out somewhere(I don't recall) that California has more Hunters, Fishermen and gun owners than any other state, still voting here didn't seam to make much difference, and the Republican Governor just goes right along with the liberals.

We all should do some preliminary research whenever we start loading something new. I can see where it was easy for the original poster to go strait to the same weight bullet as he was using , then discover it didn't shoot well in his rifle. As I stated earlier, I contacted Barnes prior to loading, I also contacted Berger when I switched to his Moly bullets for my matches. It just made sense not to assume that new construction or coatings would not be different than what I was using.

VarmintGuy
02-04-2009, 01:47 PM
Rredina: YOUR apology is long over due!
I am still waiting.
You have tried "tangents", name calling, avoiding the issue, rationalizations and now bribery!
You have won another cake!
The answer is no, and you know what you can do with your Kalifornicopia quarter!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

cdog
02-04-2009, 07:06 PM
VG, you must make friends everywhere you go,LOL!
I'll pray for you as well!!
Cdog.

LJC
02-04-2009, 11:36 PM
At the rate that he's going he is going to get kicked off this board also.

DR4NRA
02-05-2009, 12:14 AM
VG do us all a favor and Please let this thread die. It has been rehashed and problem is solved.

CMON PIN SHOOTS AND TURKEY SEASON, Pardon my shouting but I need to get out and have some fun.

Let It Die Please

DR