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ShadowChaser
01-15-2009, 09:02 PM
Howdy all,

I've been a shooter for over 50 years but have never owned a pellet gun until just recently. I'm interested in precision shooting, I have several nice .22LR target rifles and pistols and now that I've made it to retirement age, I've decided to expand my horizons as far as shooting is concerned.

I've recently built a 10 mtr range in my cellar and purchased a Crosman 2300S Silhouette/Field Target pistol and an AR2078A target rifle as being retired I have plenty of time to shoot and at my age, considering the cost of fuel and ammo and my arthritic joints, trips to any outdoor range are going to wait until spring and warmer weather returns in four or five months...

The Crosman 2300S pistol works very well for me on my cellar range, I'm using Crosman Premier 10.5 gr Silhouette/Fieldtarget .177 pellets and I shoot the 2300S with these as accurately as I do my S&W target hand guns and I'm pleased with the 2300S performance for the most part.

However at this point, the pellet rifle, a AR2078A target .177 cal. Co2 powered with receiver sights is not working out as well as I'd hoped. This gun is very eratic as far as accuracy is concerned, sometimes I get respectable groups with it, but more often than not, I get quarter sized shotgun patterns with occaisional drastic fliers of about 1 1/2" to the right of the POA. The 2300S pistol shoots groups half the size of the rifle's groups in comparison.

I'm not sure what the trouble is, I first suspected something was loose, I've gone all over the rifle, removed the receiver sights, tried two different scopes, removed the barrel weight, shot without the weight and put it on in different positions and nothing changes... I've repositioned the barrel weight at different places along the barrel and nothing changes... At this point I'm waiting for some different types of pellets to come to try as a last resort...

Time for my questions, Am I expecting too much for accuarcy from a Co2 powered pellet rifle to expect it to match in accuracy my Anschutz which I shoot at 10 mtrs using CCI CB Long ammo? The Anschutz makes tight little 5 shot groups that are basically one ragged hole and I'm expecting the pellet rifle to perform in a similar manor or is a Co2 powered gun not capable of this?

Is Co2 as a propellent stable enough to acchieve this?

Or would I be better off to upgrade to a PCP rifle and if so, who makes a good 10 mtr target rifle without getting into the high value Olympic/ISU top end match rifles?

I chose the rifle I did as it is a style I'm familiar with, a bolt action single shot in a target stock and as far as feel and handling and trigger, its all I was looking for however if it won't group consistently, then its of little use to me which will by a unsatisfactory conclusion as I like this rifle as a gun to shoot. Its as near perfect for me to shoot as I could want and I'm beginning to wonder if it can be rebarreled with a good match grade barrel? Is there someone that does this work on pellet rifles?

How about pellets, maybe pellets are the problem, are there a better grade or type of pellet, a precision pellet made for accuracy I should be using? I'm waiting for some 8.6 gr waddcutter type to be shipped to me but beyond these two types of pellets for target shooting, what is there?

If all else fails, what do I replace this rifle with? At my age with my arthritis, no springer or intergral pump type gun will be useable for me, I have assumed my choices are either Co2 or PCP but I'm new at this and am open to suggestions.

Hoping to learn, Thanks for your interest and advice,

Happy Shooting Y'all,

Mitch & Shadow...

D R Greysun
01-15-2009, 10:29 PM
Howdy all,

I've been a shooter for over 50 years but have never owned a pellet gun until just recently. I'm interested in precision shooting, I have several nice .22LR target rifles and pistols and now that I've made it to retirement age, I've decided to expand my horizons as far as shooting is concerned.

I've recently built a 10 mtr range in my cellar and purchased a Crosman 2300S Silhouette/Field Target pistol and an AR2078A target rifle as being retired I have plenty of time to shoot and at my age, considering the cost of fuel and ammo and my arthritic joints, trips to any outdoor range are going to wait until spring and warmer weather returns in four or five months...

The Crosman 2300S pistol works very well for me on my cellar range, I'm using Crosman Premier 10.5 gr Silhouette/Fieldtarget .177 pellets and I shoot the 2300S with these as accurately as I do my S&W target hand guns and I'm pleased with the 2300S performance for the most part.

However at this point, the pellet rifle, a AR2078A target .177 cal. Co2 powered with receiver sights is not working out as well as I'd hoped. This gun is very eratic as far as accuracy is concerned, sometimes I get respectable groups with it, but more often than not, I get quarter sized shotgun patterns with occaisional drastic fliers of about 1 1/2" to the right of the POA. The 2300S pistol shoots groups half the size of the rifle's groups in comparison.

I'm not sure what the trouble is, I first suspected something was loose, I've gone all over the rifle, removed the receiver sights, tried two different scopes, removed the barrel weight, shot without the weight and put it on in different positions and nothing changes... I've repositioned the barrel weight at different places along the barrel and nothing changes... At this point I'm waiting for some different types of pellets to come to try as a last resort...

Time for my questions, Am I expecting too much for accuarcy from a Co2 powered pellet rifle to expect it to match in accuracy my Anschutz which I shoot at 10 mtrs using CCI CB Long ammo? The Anschutz makes tight little 5 shot groups that are basically one ragged hole and I'm expecting the pellet rifle to perform in a similar manor or is a Co2 powered gun not capable of this?

Is Co2 as a propellent stable enough to acchieve this?

Or would I be better off to upgrade to a PCP rifle and if so, who makes a good 10 mtr target rifle without getting into the high value Olympic/ISU top end match rifles?

I chose the rifle I did as it is a style I'm familiar with, a bolt action single shot in a target stock and as far as feel and handling and trigger, its all I was looking for however if it won't group consistently, then its of little use to me which will by a unsatisfactory conclusion as I like this rifle as a gun to shoot. Its as near perfect for me to shoot as I could want and I'm beginning to wonder if it can be rebarreled with a good match grade barrel? Is there someone that does this work on pellet rifles?

How about pellets, maybe pellets are the problem, are there a better grade or type of pellet, a precision pellet made for accuracy I should be using? I'm waiting for some 8.6 gr waddcutter type to be shipped to me but beyond these two types of pellets for target shooting, what is there?

If all else fails, what do I replace this rifle with? At my age with my arthritis, no springer or intergral pump type gun will be useable for me, I have assumed my choices are either Co2 or PCP but I'm new at this and am open to suggestions.

Hoping to learn, Thanks for your interest and advice,

Happy Shooting Y'all,

Mitch & Shadow...

FWIW, don't give up on the AR-A, that is until you've tried several different pellets. CPHP's shoot real well in the one I have and for some reason Crow Mags. do well.
Don't over look Superdomes, sometimes a cheap China made pellet will be just the right
one. While you are sort out which pellet shoot the best check the crown, make sure you
don't have a transfer port seal leaking. As is the case so often with Chinese QC, sometimes you get a stinker. At 10 meters your AR should shoot well inside .5 if you do your part. That will not win you any BR matches but the AR is not a BR rifle. Not even a competitive 10 M rifle but it is a darn good plinker! To answer your question about Co2 and consistency. Liquid volume and temperature are critical to consistency. You should get a minimum of 20 good consistent shots from two 12 gram cartridges. They may not be the first 5 or 10 or the last 5 or 10, a chronograph will tell you where the sweet spot falls.

D R

ShadowChaser
01-15-2009, 10:49 PM
D R, Thanks for your reply...

You mentioned two things, one is temperature, my cellar range stays at 70 degrees pretty consistently all the time and I store the Co2 Cartridges and pellets in the same area so temperature should not be an issue, I think that can safely be removed from the equation...

You mentioned the transfer port seal leaking... How would I tell? The gun seems to work flawlessly as far as function is concerned, however I have wondered if there is a way for the volume of Co2 delivered to the chamber with each pull of the trigger is not precisely the same however I would expect to see POI drop vertically if the Co2 volume/pressure were changing and what I am seeing is more a random series of fliers, I had a five shot group this afternoon that marched all around the 6 ring on the target and then the next group , all 5 shots were 9's & 10's. and then the next group, one shot went to the right about 1 1/2". The next might go high and left by an inch of the bullseye center. Its got me really baffled and regretably where I live, I can not run into the town center and buy pellots, I have to order on-line and wait for them to be delivered and part of my problem is, being new at this, I don't know what to order. .22LR is so much simpler... LOL...

Edit to add: I have examined the crown carefully, done the Q-tip test, and it looks fine... I do get an occaisional 5 shot group that is under .5" and that I'd be happy with if it would happen a bit more consistently. Problem is, it may happen only once or twice a shooting session and I get a half dozen groups the size of a quarter to half a dollar in between the rare good ones... In comparison, I can use my small Anschutz with CCI CB Longs and get five groups on the same range with the same type target that are all under .5". If I shoot CCI Standard Velocity, its all one hole bug holes at 10 mtrs... I explain this so you can understand my frustration with the inconsistency of the AR2078A...

Thanks,
Mitch...

jlmurphy
01-15-2009, 11:04 PM
Shadowchaser,
I started with airguns and then turned to the dark side with powder burners. I still find that I shoot many more pellets than bullets. Your CO2 rifle will never live up to your expectations. The barrel quality, exhaust valving, trigger ( guessing), and even the power source will be erratic. I would recommend a Feinwerkbau 300 spring piston. I noticed you didn't want a spring piston, but the cocking effort of a side lever 6 foot pound rifle is very light, only a fraction of most break barrel rifles. While no longer competitive, these rifles are still extremely accurate and quiet, and can be found in the airgun classifieds. There are single pump pneumatics available, but due to the inherent inefficiency of pneumatics, I doubt the effort would be less. Precharged pneumatics are great, but expensive, loud, and requiring a refill source or hand pump ( lots of effort). As to your pellet selection, match type flat pellets from Europe, when fired at match velocities (550/650 fps), are extremely accurate. Most American made pellets are, unfortunately, inferior, excepting the Crosman Premere line. Try Pyramid Air for general airgun supplies, and the American Airgun Free Classifieds for used airguns.

ShadowChaser
01-15-2009, 11:25 PM
Shadowchaser,
I started with airguns and then turned to the dark side with powder burners. I still find that I shoot many more pellets than bullets. Your CO2 rifle will never live up to your expectations. The barrel quality, exhaust valving, trigger ( guessing), and even the power source will be erratic. I would recommend a Feinwerkbau 300 spring piston. I noticed you didn't want a spring piston, but the cocking effort of a side lever 6 foot pound rifle is very light, only a fraction of most break barrel rifles. While no longer competitive, these rifles are still extremely accurate and quiet, and can be found in the airgun classifieds. There are single pump pneumatics available, but due to the inherent inefficiency of pneumatics, I doubt the effort would be less. Precharged pneumatics are great, but expensive, loud, and requiring a refill source or hand pump ( lots of effort). As to your pellet selection, match type flat pellets from Europe, when fired at match velocities (550/650 fps), are extremely accurate. Most American made pellets are, unfortunately, inferior, excepting the Crosman Premere line. Try Pyramid Air for general airgun supplies, and the American Airgun Free Classifieds for used airguns.


JL, Thanks for your reply...

Interesting to see your comment about match velocities being 550/650 fps... This gun tests at 636 fps average with 10.04 fps standard deviation which for what I felt my needs to be should be quite adequate. As a rimfire target shooter, any ammunition that stays within 10 fps deviation is going to be accurate so I assume the same should be true of this gun... Please correct me if I'm wrong...

At this point I'm shooting Crosman Premier 10.5g domed pellets and have some 8.6g wadcutters on order to try...

I'd consider a FWB or any other side lever (or under lever) if I could try one before buying. Problem is, where I live, that is not an option availible to me presently... Seems all the good gun dealers for this type of gun are 800 miles or more away from where I'm located and I'm new to this so am trying to learn as I go... Call it fumbling around in the dark and snow...

Happy Shooting and thanks for the information...

Mitch & Shadow...

jlmurphy
01-16-2009, 12:43 AM
ShadowChaser,
I can appreciate your reluctance in purchasing a rifle unseen that may not fulfill your expectations upon arrival, but the beauty of used match rifles is that they can be easily resold for the same purchase price. I bought a FWB 150, refinished the stock, shot it for awhile, and eventually resold it for more than I paid for it when I decided I wanted the same action in a more match type stock ( FWB 300 Mini). You would only lose the cost of shipping. I have repaired airguns and powder burners on occasion and it has given me the chance to become familiar with many fine pieces without having to buy them. Just a thought.

lead head
01-16-2009, 04:24 AM
shadowchaser
I have just jumped into pellet rifle benchrest shooting(25yds). This is the first real pellet rifle that I ever owned so I'm not going to be much help but I thought I would through in my 2 cents.
My rifle of choice was a PCP gun (USFT) that I bought from a man that was going out of the business. It shoots lights out at 25 yds but we had to try several kinds of pellets to get it to do this. So I woulg suggest that you try alot of kinds of pellets.
You can pickup a benjaman pcp rifles for under 500.00 that have been getting some good reviews lately.
There is a guy by the name of Don Matzeder that posts here and will probably post to this that is one of the most knowledgeable people on air rifles that I know.
Larry

DonMatzeder
01-16-2009, 04:31 AM
As has been mentioned, chinese QC is somewhat hit and miss but that model can be made very accurate and many olympic guns were co2 so don't dump it yet. The one I had a crusty trigger and upon examination, had rust on the end of the tension adjusting screw. A little cleanup and it worked fine and could be adjusted very light. I also increased the length and sharpened the bolt probe to improve flow. A lighter pellet might work better, either CPL from crosman or any number of the wadcutters on the market. I use vogel because of quality and price. Something is wrong with the gun but it is not the basic design. You can check for a breach seal leak with a kleenex layed over the breech when fired. If it is leaking, it will blow off. If your chony readings are consistent, this is probably not the problem. Have you cleaned the barrel aggressively? The come over very dirty.

DonMatzeder
01-16-2009, 04:33 AM
As has been mentioned, chinese QC is somewhat hit and miss but that model can be made very accurate and many olympic guns were co2 so don't dump it yet. The one I had, had a crusty trigger and upon examination, had rust on the end of the tension adjusting screw. A little cleanup and it worked fine and could be adjusted very light. I also increased the length and sharpened the bolt probe to improve flow. A lighter pellet might work better, either CPL from crosman or any number of the wadcutters on the market. I use vogel because of quality and price. Something is wrong with the gun but it is not the basic design. You can check for a breach seal leak with a kleenex layed over the breech when fired. If it is leaking, it will blow off. If your chony readings are consistent, this is probably not the problem. Have you cleaned the barrel aggressively? The come over very dirty.

ShadowChaser
01-16-2009, 07:46 PM
Well, Folks, not being a person to let sleeping dogs lay for very long, having too much time on my hands, and being of a very inqusitive nature while waiting for a variety of pellets I've ordered to be delivered (which, thanks to the cold and snow, looks like it will be sometime next week) I decided to make some tests and comparisons between the Crosman 2300S pellet pistol I have and the AR-2078A rifle...

One comment to start with, I did as suggested by DonMatzeder and started by loading the rifle with a pellet, placing a small square of light paper about 7/8" square over the loading port and firing the gun and the paper sits there without a wiggle... That was repeated probably half a dozen times and I have concluded the seal does not leak and it also tells me how steady my rest system is ...

And, Don, the rifle barrel has been cleaned three or four times however I'm being a bit cautious aabout that, I've heard solvents are harmful to the seals so what I'm doing is using a few drops of Pelloil on a patch, run it through a few times followed by several clean patches... Then I shoot maybe 100 pellets and repeat the cleaning process... I think I've finally got the orange gunk out of it...

And more testing, using the same range, targets, and Crosman Premier 10.5g domed pellets for each test, first thing I did was to shoot 7 five shot groups with the pistol. This is done at 10 mtrs using a 3X pistol scope for sighting and hand holding while resting the Co2 tube just ahead of the trigger guard in the front rest I use when sighting and testing rifles. End result is groups ranging from 3/8" to 1", most about .5" give or take a little...

On the same range, using the same pellets I then set up with the AR-2078 rifle with 9X scope and shot 7 five shot groups with it and they ran anywhere from .5" to about 1 1/2" and average was about .8"

Now it sure seems something is fishy when a pistol is able to outshoot a rifle consistently...

So, next test, I decided I wanted to see what the physical condition of a recovered pellet with minimal damage from each gun looks like. I filled a couple of gallon Tropicana OJ plastic jugs with water, capped them, and laid them on top of a trashcan in front of my bullet trap so the impact was the top about an inch away from the cap and the pellet path was diagonally the length of the jug. I fired three shots with each gun, all three from the rifle were contained in the jug, two of the pistol pellets were contained, the third went the full length and out the diagonal opposite corner, hit the backstop and dropped into the trashcan... This pellet has very minor damage, a slight flattening of the skirt and a small nick across the top of the dome.

Starnge that the pistol, a 10" barrel and one Co2 powerlet, factory specked at up to 520 fps velocity penetrated the jug lengthwise and a rifle with two powerlets specked at 625-650 fps did not...

However, upon examining the six recovered slugs, the most notable thing observed is the rifling marks are very light on the pellets fired from the rifle, and on the pellets fired from the pistol, the rifling marks are larger and very distinct...

I've had a feeling as an experienced shooter that the eratic shotgunning I've been seeing shooting this gun, is that there is a problem with the barrel. That was what inspired me to do this series of tests today, and my initial conclusion is that this rifle barrel has an oversize bore...

Ok, I'm thick skinned, pick apart my tests and conclusion, I'm looking for advice and I'm not jumping to this as the final conclusion until I get the variety of pellets I have on order to try and do more testing and possibly substanciate what I've discovered today...

But, on the chance that this situation does not change with different pellets, then, who does barrel replacement work on this type of pellet gun? I like the gun, it fits me well and I enjoy shooting it other than the accuracy issue. Who can I talk to about working on it?

I also think this rifle could be improved with a better bolt as the bolt in this gun does not have a probe tip as compared to my other Co2 pellet gun and I've heard somewhere that the shape of the bolt tip can impede the flow of the charge behind the pellet... Have I heard correctly?

Thanks for your help,

Happy Shooting...

Mitch & Shadow...

jlmurphy
01-16-2009, 08:58 PM
ShadowChaser,
You should slug both of your barrels, especially the rifle. If you have access to a micrometer you can determine the exact dimension of the bore. More importantly while pushing the pellet from the breech, you can feel tight and loose areas. Many air rifle bores are choked at the muzzle, just a slight tightness, it really helps eliminate fliers. I had a project spring piston rifle on which I had shortened the barrel, the velocity was good, but occasional fliers were annoying, after choking, no more fliers.

ShadowChaser
01-16-2009, 09:37 PM
Hi JL, Thanks for the reply...

What you mention about choked barrels and cutting the choke off one and getting sporadic fliers sure sounds like what is happening with this gun, like it has no choke and the bore is oversize by several thousands of an inch by the difference I'm seeing in the rifling marks... You mention slugging the gun, right at the moment, as I'm waiting for more pellets to arrive, realising this is a brand new gun I've only had a week, I'm hesitant to tear it all apart until I've had a chance to test some different pellets in it. And I've not figgured out how to slug the barrel without removing it from the breach... Possibly I can do it in reverse if i go about it carefully...

I'm moving a bit cautiously at the moment, I'm thinking of repeating the tests I did today with the jugs of water and using pellets I've sorted by size. if I can get a few that go down the barrel and show full contact, then I can measure them against the 2300S pellets, its not as accurate as slugging the barrel, but if there is a big difference, I should see it and then can decide what next... And, yes, I have micrometers, several sets of Starretts best, what i do not have is an accurate enough scale to critically measure pellet weight to parts of a grain accurately. The scale is obviously something I will need to purchase...

Thanks for your input...

Happy Shooting,
Mitch & Shadow...

jlmurphy
01-16-2009, 10:03 PM
ShadowChaser,
What everyone says about Chinese airguns being hit or miss is true. The problem is quality control. I bought a Chinese copy of the Beeman R9 for my neighbor's war against his ground squirrels. Just to be thorough, I disassembled the action, it was full of metal cuttings, if he had used it as received, it would have been ruined in short order. It was actually a well made piece, just carelessly assembled. As I see it, you can return the airgun as defective and take your chances on a second rifle, after all if the barrel is oversize, it can't be repaired and choking the barrel is something you shouldn't have to do on a new rifle. Or you could tear into it, at the worst you will have a much better understanding of the mechanics of CO2 airguns.

ShadowChaser
01-16-2009, 10:28 PM
JL,

Buying this AR2078 rifle took a lot of research and thought to find the gun that fit my wants and needs best. This is a model that has recieved good reviews and I purchased it from a reputable dealer with an extended warrantee... The fact that it was made in China is neither here nor there, all gun manufaturers have problems, I'll grant you the Chinese seem to have more than most however I'm not satisfied as of yet that is the issue with this gun although it keeps looking more and more that the barrel in this instance may fall into that catagory... If that is the case, then the dealer will replace the barrel or he is in default on the service that he sold me along with the gun... I doubt that will happen, I don't think he wants that bucket of worms to deal with...

I'm more intersted in having the gun that I want and that includes shooting repeatably and accurately and I will do what is neccessary to reach that goal... At this point it is a diagnostic thing for the most part and for me, being new to Airguns, finding out how to reach the end goal that I want, its a learning process if nothing else...

I'm in a tough position when it comes to buying something along the lines of an adult airgun, there is no dealer within a four hour drive or more that I have been able to locate, I've always bought guns by touch/feel and fit and how they speak to me. I like quality guns and this gun so far, while no Smith & Wesson or Winchester or Cooper, is of reasonable quality and construction. So if it ends up it has a bad or faulty barrel, then its my intent to have it changed or find a source of a match grade barrel for it. My problem is I have no knowlege of pellet/airrifles and who to go to for help other than this forum... Yes, I'm learning as I go and I enjoy that, the gun is probably worth all of that to me alone...

Thanks for your help...

Mitch & Shadow...

DonMatzeder
01-17-2009, 06:01 AM
A couple of thoughts while I think about you problem. First I use a citrus based household cleaner on AG barrels. Second, the engraving on the skirt is more important than the engraving on the head of a pellet as long as there is some engraving on the head, and third, many match pellets come in different sizes to match bores, ie 4.50, 4.51, 4.52. Bore size is usually not the issue because the skirt of the pellet blows out to meet the rifling.

Paul Bendix
01-17-2009, 07:09 AM
Shadow Chaser,
I am new to Airguns and while trying to find pellets for my different guns have maybe 20-25 different tins. Then I found several vendors sell sample packs. 25 pellets or so of what they carry. If you want I will send you a care package of the ones i have. My email is paulbendix@aol.com
I also have been told NOT to use a cleaning rod in AG barrels. I use a pull through made up with fishing line and screen webbing. The only time I use a cleaning rod is to slug the barrel. Both of my high $$guns had burrs at the transfer port that was shaving the pellets.
Paul

ShadowChaser
01-17-2009, 10:40 AM
Folks, purely as a means of demonstrating my frustration with this AR-2078A rifle, here is a different comparison, this time between a 25 year old Anschutz entry level colegiate target rifle "Model Mark 2000" made in the early 1980's and the new AR-2078A...

This morning, first I fired the AR-2078A pellet rifle with the Bushnell scope at 9X and the results are four 5 shot groups at 10 mtrs and groups are .60", .70", .98" and 1.25" which is about as good a series of groups as I've been able to shoot with it in one session excepting a couple of close to .50" groups that seem to have been more chance than anything in other sessions.

For the sake of comparison, I then shot the Anschutz Mark 2000 with receiver/globe front (with aperture) sights using CCI CB Long ammo and as I only had 15 rounds remaining in the box, I shot three 5 shot groups resulting with .35", .45", and .50" out of a cold gun...

Several comments about this test, first, CCI CB Long ammo is not the most accurate ammo, its probably the least accurate of anything I have ever shot and this Anschutz Mark 2000 has a history of shooting bug holes at 10 mtrs witrh CCI Standard Velocity 40 gr LRN so using CB Longs in the Annie is somewhat of a handicap to begin with.

Second comment is that the feel and stablity of the AR2078A pellet rifle is so much better than the Annie to me it is amazing. To switch to the Annie after shooting the AR-2078, the Annie feels so different, I realized what a poor fit to me the Annie is and that the pellet rifle has the better trigger and is a dream to shoot in comparison...

The end result of this session this morning is to bolster my desire to get to the bottom of this accuracy issue of the AR-2078A by whatever means it takes...

I sure do apreciate your assistance and support,

Happy Shooting...
Mitch & Shadow...

DonMatzeder
01-17-2009, 11:04 AM
If all else fails, Call Tim at Mac1 airguns in LA. He sells a lot of QB's and can rebarrel if required. He'll clean everything up inside and make sure everything is as it should be. He may not tell you what you want to hear but he will tell you the truth about the best way to go.

ldurham
01-18-2009, 12:54 AM
The breech leade area is burred or damaged. Since you say you have a warranty, the best thing would be to simply exchange the gun for one that shoots decently ... simply state that the gun should shoot sub-half in groups benched from ten yds and it won't is all you need to tell the seller.

If you WANT the gun tuned to shoot accurately, the best guy around is Tim at Mac1 ... as he's done hundred of em, and knows more about them than anybody around.

BTW, don't clean it from the front anymore.

Renegade
01-18-2009, 07:22 PM
Mitch,
This is what a group at 10m should look like. You're looking for the little dot next to the dime. http://benchrest.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=6972&stc=1&d=1232330189 That's the original test target that came with my Walther LGR single stroke pnuematic, 10 shots at 10M. Here's a better picture of the gun. http://benchrest.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=6973&stc=1&d=1232330189.
I'm hoping to make it to Holbrook for the Feb. match, and you're welcome to shoot the gun if you can make it to the match. Cocking effort isn't too bad with these guns, and the FWB 300 that Paul Bendix offered to let you shoot in the other thread may be even easier to cock, and is also very accurate (I sold it to Paul).
Hope to meet you at Holbrook,
Todd

ShadowChaser
01-22-2009, 06:00 PM
Boy, some great information and help on this forum, I'll start by saying thank you very much for the assistance and advice, its a big help with the learning process I'm going through...

Don, I've made note of using a citrus based household cleaner, don't have any on hand at the moment but next trip to the market I'll pick up a bottle...

You mentioned about buying match pellets in different sizes, all I know about pellets is what I've read on Pyramid Air's web sight and I've come to realize that a conclusion I drew on that information is wrong and I've ended up with pellets intended for a high power airgun and what I have is a low to medium power gun being Co2 at 635-650 fps and 7.8 ft/lbs muzzle energy... My question now is, where does one find the variety of match pellets that are graded by size as well as weight? What do you use for match grade pellets?

Several things have come to light since my last posting, first is that in my exploring this AR-2078A Chinese made rifle, two facts came to light. First is that the trigger unit was never set up properly by who ever assembled the gun. I finally figured out how to get the safety lever off so I could remove the barrel/receiver/Co2 plenum/trigger assembly from the stock and upon doing so, I discovered a small setscrew sticking out the back of the trigger assembly, so far out it was about to fall out, only a couple threads were holding it into the back of the trigger assembly housing. I turned it in a bit but felt no resistance and it didn't seem to be doing anything, so at that point, not knowing what this screw was for, I decided to remove the side plate from the trigger housing and upon doing so, discovered that this screw needed about 20 turns or so to reach the back of the trigger as the over travel stop. When I removed the side plate, the screw in question was not even extending through the housing wall and what had been sticking out about 3/8" is now flush at the outside and stopping the trigger as it should.

At this point I also discovered the sear engagement adjust screw was loose, the jam nut was several turns away from the surface it is supposed to bind on and the sear was at maximum engagement and this obviously had never been properly adjusted...

So, first thing I did was to set up the trigger as it should be set according to what I've learned with other rifles and the trigger is now working correctly and vastly improved...

The second observation was that the receiver/Co2 plenum chamber tube and trigger housing were binding severely in the stock, they required quite a bit of persuasion with a hefty rubber mallet to literally drive the mechanism and barrel etc. out of the stock.

Once the gun was appart, the cause of the trouble getting the gun apart became very obvious, the stock, which appears to be some sort of fine grained softwood, is severely warped along the channel everything sits in and twisting the trigger housing causing it to bind in the stock along with the Co2 plenum chamber... The channel has about 3/32" bow along the full length of the channel and fore- stock...

So, with the stock set up securely in a gun vice, a 2 ft.length of 3/4" diameter tubing wrapped with 60 grit sandpaper and several hours of work combined with a bit of filing the side walls of the trigger housing slot and a bit of fitting as I worked, the gun now goes together and comes apart by hand without having to beat it with the rubber hammer...

The next thing I discovered as I fitted it back together was that the surface of the center area of the stock at the bottom of the channel where the single bolt that holds the gun together is quite a bit lower than the rest and tipped towards the forend and one can not tighten tighten this bolt without distorting the mechanism and so more sanding to get a bit of clearance, and then the use of 3M foam bedding tape (a'la Anschutz) to adjust the fit of the receiver/Co2 plenum/trigger mechanism into the stock properly when the bolt is snugged up...

While doing this and just as I was finishing up and starting testing with the Crosman 10.5 gr pellets which were all I had, the "PEAK" Chinese brand 8.6g pellets from the fellow I purchased the AR-2078A from showed up in the mail...

The end result of my work combined with the 8.6g pellets is a gun that shoots reasonably well. I'm no longer getting the erratic fliers of 1.5" to 2" and am now getting reasonable groups on my 10 mtr range that can be measured and averaged.

This afternoon UPS delivered the 2nd order of pellets from Straight Shooters I've been waiting on, and I now have tested the gun with 5 different pellets, the original Crosman Premier 10.5g dome, the PEAK 8.6g wadcutters, RWS Meisterkugein in both 7.0g and 8.2g, and Beeman H&N Match 8.09g...

Preliminary testing shows the Beeman H&N Match shoots best in this gun and seven 5 shot groups at 10 meters are .35", .55", .44", .43", .58", .45", and .25"

Second best were the RWS Meisterkugien 7.0, I only had time to shoot three groups, .48", .40", and .50" however next time shooting, I'm going to shoot these again as I need more data to insert into my spread sheet analysis of how the pellets shoot in this gun.

Third are the Chinese PEAK brand pellets, they also averaged in group size just slightly larger than the Beeman and the RWS 7.0g pellets...

Its obvious to me now that this gun likes the lighter pellets...

What a difference from when I started two weeks ago with this AR-2078A, the quarter and half dollar sized groups with random fliers are a thing of the past and what fun it is to see groups of one ragged hole in the .25" to .40" range, not every time but they are becoming a lot more consistent!...

While I realize this gun is still not good enough to be very competitive, and hopefully I have a ways to go yet with improving this gun, there are other pellets yet to try, I still have three lots I didn't have time to get to today and also have found at least three or four types more to order and try.

Still, realizing I initially purchased this gun with the intent only to use it on my cellar 10 mtr range during the winter, its very gratifying at this point to see that at least for my cellar use its going to be good practice for now...

However (the BIG however!!!) Now I have the BUG, I want a match grade gun and to see what others are doing at Holbrook and other places and get back into a bit of competition and good fun...

Thanks and Happy Shooting y'all...

Mitch & Shadow...

ShadowChaser
01-22-2009, 06:15 PM
Mitch,
This is what a group at 10m should look like. You're looking for the little dot next to the dime.
<Snip>
Hope to meet you at Holbrook,
Todd


Todd, looking at your Walther LG picture and the little sample target, I'm sitting here trying to think of something wisea$$ed smart to say, like, uh, I got one of those little bug holes with each of my Coopers!

But the truth is, I've seen the Walther LG guns before and I'm envious!!!

Looking forward to seeing it in person and meeting you Feb. 7th if all goes as planned...

Thanks and Happy Shooting...
Mitch & Shadow...

crb
01-22-2009, 08:27 PM
Mitch,
You are going to enjoy the airgun experience. I have a pretty good shooting 6PPC for group matches. I have an unreal 30BR for my club's score matches. The guns I look forward to shooting the most are my air rifles. No recoil, no noise, cheap ammo, amazingly accurate. What more could you ask for ??

While it's still too cold to shoot outside you need to be making some windflags.

good luck
Ray

ShadowChaser
01-22-2009, 09:04 PM
Mitch,
You are going to enjoy the airgun experience. I have a pretty good shooting 6PPC for group matches. I have an unreal 30BR for my club's score matches. The guns I look forward to shooting the most are my air rifles. No recoil, no noise, cheap ammo, amazingly accurate. What more could you ask for ??

While it's still too cold to shoot outside you need to be making some windflags.

good luck
Ray


Hi Ray, I'm alread enjoying it very much and I've only started airgun shooting since the first of the year... So far in the past two weeks, I've shot 1500 pellets and used up 40 12g Co2 powerlets... Thats about half of the quantity of ammo that I burned up last year already. But then, I'm not driving 45 min to an hour each way to get to the range... Only having to get up from the Computer or the TV and go down stairs to shoot whenever I feel like it has some real advantages... And I never was much of a TV person anyhow...

Wind flags are another issue that I'll have to tackle at some point. I built 25 yd & 50 yd ranges in the woods at a farm I'm involved with off Cape, and there I use streamers of yellow contractors "CAUTION" tape tied to stakes and brush and tree limbs. However I do have an assortment of old light stands stashed away that were used years ago when doing advertising photography and those will make great wind flag stands, I just need to research some ideas of how to best make flags to go on top however my thinking at the moment is a short length of string and more of the yellow contractors tape tied to it should work for a simplistic approach for portable wind flags... I also have some red/orange 1" surveyor's tape that might work, will have to experiment with it a bit...

If you know of an Internet site with plans and ideas for windflags, I'd appreciate a shove in the right direction...

Thanks again and Happy Shooting...

Mitch & Shadow...

nlieber
02-06-2009, 08:06 PM
I'm bringing a few extra guns if you are.

ShadowChaser
02-06-2009, 09:07 PM
I'm bringing a few extra guns if you are.

I'm planning to be there however you don't need to go out of your way to bring extra gear... I think I've figured out what I'm going to do airgun wise, I've found an Air Arms S400 MPR FT and am waiting until after the meet at Holbrook to finalize my plans for purchasing it...

As far as me making Holbrook, its going to depend heavily on the WX in the Morning... We didn't get the warmer temps I was counting on today to thaw out the diesel however I went out and plugged it in a few minutes ago and I'm optimistic its going to start in the morning...

Diesel V-8's are fantastic engines until they sit cold for a week or more in temps below freezing which makes them very stubborn and its 14 degF here now and supposed to get colder during the night...

But if I don't make it tomorrow, I'll be there in March...

Thanks for your interest...

Mitch & Shadow...

ShadowChaser
02-07-2009, 06:32 PM
Well Folks,

My attempt to get started in Airgun Benchrest Shooting took a giant leap forward today, Feb 7, 2009...

To start the day, I managed to get my truck started in 13 deg F temperatures. Its the first time I have ever found myself with a need to start that big diesel V-8 in temperatures below the critical point for diesel fuel, normally temps that low happen very rarely where I live and getting that monster to start was my biggest concern as to whether I'd make the match or not... But it did and I was able to make the hour and ten minute drive to Holbrook without any problems...

The trip to Holbrook was well worth the effort, I met a great group of fellows, got to spend some time looking over and handling some neat guns including an Air Arms MPR FT which is what I have decided is the gun that best fits my needs at this point in time.

But Best of all, this great group of fellows, Paul Bendix in particular, talked me into shooting in their match with them. Paul let me shoot his Theoben in .22 caliber and you can read the results in the Holbrook 7 Feb. match results...

I'll just say that Paul's Theoben is one great shooter and it was a fabulous day...

My heartfelt thanks to Paul and the group at the Holbrook Match and as soon as I was home again, I contacted the dealer I've been talking to about buying a Air Arms S400-MPR-FT and finalized the deal... The March Match I'm planning to be back at Holbrook and this time with my own gun (Provided Murphy keeps his fingers out of the pie!!!)...

My Thanks to you all,

Mitch & Shadow...

Paul Bendix
02-07-2009, 07:16 PM
I put a new barrel on from David Slade this week. The Rapid finally shots GREAT!! only took 10 months to fix. My gun took first and second.
Great shooting Mitch!
Paul

Mitch shooting his first AGBR match at Holbrook 250 4X on target three.
http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj235/ModelA_2008/02-07-09_1358.jpg