PDA

View Full Version : Professional Shooting League



dankillough
10-23-2008, 09:10 PM
I have always envied professional race car drivers, golfers, and bass fisherman. They get to do what they love, and and they make money doing it. So as shooters, why can't we do that.

Well, now we can. We are starting the Professional Shooting League in 2009. We will have 5 matches across the U.S. and each one will have a purse of at least $5,500. We will shoot 5 targets at each match and the winner of each target will win $100. The remaining $5,000 will be paid out to the top 10 overall aggregate winners. Entry fee will be $100. To win your money back all you need to do is finish 10th or win one target.

The first match is 2-7-09 at the Rocky River Barn. You can get more information at WWW.PROSHOOTINGLEAGUE.COM

If anyone is interested in advertising or if you know of a company that would be interested in advertising, please let me know.

Bill Wynne
10-24-2008, 05:27 AM
Dan,

I think that this is a great idea to say the least. I understand that there are to be 5 matches but I can only find 4 matches scheduled. Am I missing something?

Someone will win this thing this year. Their name will forever be first on the list of winners because it will be in the first year.

Concho Bill

Dave S
10-24-2008, 06:56 AM
Dan:

Will it be possible to buy targets for practice and if so, how much will the targets be..???

Thanks

Dave

dankillough
10-24-2008, 08:00 AM
Bill,
The last match is being worked on now. It will hopefully be late September or early October. I will post as soon as I have the specifics.

Dave,
Targets are being printed as we speak, When I have them available, I will let you know.

Tenspot
10-24-2008, 08:20 AM
Hey Dan, any thought to making it Nascar on the points? Then each match is weighted the same. JUst declare 1 st place worth 1000 and go down 5 points each 2nd through 25th and down 3 points each place there after. That would cover you to 311 shooters per match.

dankillough
10-24-2008, 10:31 AM
Tenspot,

That is not a bad idea. I will consider it.

I would just hate it if we have 20 shooters at one match and the winner got 1000 points, and then the next match we have 100 shooters and the winner still gets 1000 points. It is a great deal tougher to beat 99 shooters than 19.

garrisone
10-24-2008, 11:13 AM
Tenspot,

That is not a bad idea. I will consider it.

I would just hate it if we have 20 shooters at one match and the winner got 1000 points, and then the next match we have 100 shooters and the winner still gets 1000 points. It is a great deal tougher to beat 99 shooters than 19.

Dan: What a great idea.This could be a real boost for our sport.Although I will not be able to compete with you I support you and your efforts to bring this idea to fruitation and wish you and all involved much success. garrisone.:D

daletheman_3
10-24-2008, 11:54 AM
Dan, this is really cool! I got a couple of the targets from you up at the Lincoln shoot. Did you change the sighters any yet on the ones your having printed? You had mentioned doing them differently.

I agree with you that there should be a different system for beating more shooters but I am going to bet that you see around the same amount of shooters at each match. Just a hunch.

For anyone that has not seen the target, it is very intimidating to look at if you shoot a lot of ARA, but I overlayed one of my ARA targets on it and the score was the same (I just dont have a lot of X's!!! :( ). I see one match that I will definitely be at, but hope to hit more of em. Mike

Don Stith
10-24-2008, 12:37 PM
Dan
Can you expand or expound as you see fit on rule 14? It is common practice for many shooters to bring their surplus equipment to sell at Matches. Will that be allowed?
Beyond that, How do I get permission to display and hopefully sell the stocks I make for benchrest.
Don

KEN HARPER
10-24-2008, 01:56 PM
That's a pretty reasonable entry fee based upon the payback. Based upon the decline in participation at shoots around the country this year, you're obviously not relying solely on entry fees to make up the purse.

dankillough
10-24-2008, 02:27 PM
Mike,
the targets being printed are exactly like the target on the website. The sighters on the bottom of the target have been moved further away from the record portion of the target. The target looks tough, but it is best edge scoring.

Don,
We will have sponsors/advertisers that pay for space at the matches. We will basically have 3 levels of sponsorship. The highest level will have the naming rights for the entire series. For example, The PSL Stith Stock series. The 2nd level will having naming rights for a particular match. For example The Don Stith Match at the Rocky River Barn. The 3rd level will have naming rights for one target. For example, instead of being Target 1 it will be the Don Stith Target 1. Each of these advertisers will also have signs with their logo on them and space to set up a booth for selling merchandise. We can also have booth space available for someone not wanting to advertise. This will be allowed only if we have room. We need advertisers so that we can have a large purse. Give me a call and we can discuss the details. 325-212-0807
We will have an area that is free for individual shooters to sell personal equipment.

Ken,
We need advertisers to get the larger purse. I am personally guaranteeing the $5,500 purse. If we do not have any advertisers, then the shooters entry fee and my wallet will cover it. We are also giving a portion of the income to each range. We will pay out $5,500 no matter what happens. If only 10 shooters show up, then those 10 will take the money home.

We are trying to make this beneficial for the ranges as well so that they can hopefully make improvements to the facilities.

Hopefully, this will bring publicity to our sport. That will then bring more shooters to all rimfire benchrest matches.

glynn angle
10-24-2008, 03:08 PM
Dan, I really like what you are doing. I think rimfire benchrest had matured to the point that we're ready for This Pro League. A bit of a " leap of faith" on your part, but I think it' ll go well. I hope all the shooters will get behind this. It'l also made some good spectating. Best wishes on this project. Glynn

decr8er
10-24-2008, 03:14 PM
Hi Dan,
I am behind your idea 110%. I realize that you are still working the bugs out. I would humbly make one suggestion. If it were me, which it is not, I would allow any and all manufacturers to set up a tent at the matches.
I have no idea as to how you are determining the amount of the purse for this shoot, but I would assume that it is a percentage of the receipts for the match. If that is true ,then why would you limit the number of advertisers who will contribute to the prize pool?
I have been to many sporting conventions where one vendor is right up against another. I enjoy looking at them all. In fact, seeing them all together helps me to make a more informed decision.
My hope is that you can expand your horizons and make this shoot a major yearly event.
P.S. I would hate to think that there are a few manufacturers who are the sole contributors to this endeavor.
best,tim

Mickey Law
10-24-2008, 03:49 PM
Hi Dan,
I understand that the targets are on the website but I can't find it. I would like to see them. I found the website but no targets. I think you have a good thing going. I wish you the best in your endeavor. Mickey:)

Fred K
10-24-2008, 03:59 PM
Dan
Looked over the web site and noted no mention of Flags ?
Fred K

Fred K
10-24-2008, 04:01 PM
Mickey
Look at the top for the target, next to Rules.
Fred K

Mickey Law
10-24-2008, 04:31 PM
I reckon I am losing it. Mickey;)

Pops
10-24-2008, 06:14 PM
I see some positive things happening here , I myself would like to see this opened up to the average shooter with 3-4 different classes . Have the big money in the unlimited class and the rest just split entry fees as prize money . It is difficult for a sport to grow when the only people who can compete Have put together some high dollar equipment , this is even more true as the economy slows down.

Fiddler
10-24-2008, 06:15 PM
Go to the address for the website and click on it. Once on the site look at the top of the page where it says Home, Rules, Target etc... and click on target it will take you to the page and show you what the target looks like.

CliffA
10-24-2008, 06:23 PM
Great idea Dan, hope I can make it to at least one of them. In the mean time I think we all owe it to ourselves to help Dan by sending out some emails or letters asking our favorite names (barrels, stocks, ammo, actions, gunsmiths) if they will be there or sponsering these events in some way. If enough of us are encouraging them, Dan may not have to much trouble getting this prize money rounded up for us. I'll be sending an email to all my favorites with a link to the site.

CliffA
10-24-2008, 06:29 PM
I see some positive things happening here , I myself would like to see this opened up to the average shooter with 3-4 different classes . Have the big money in the unlimited class and the rest just split entry fees as prize money . It is difficult for a sport to grow when the only people who can compete Have put together some high dollar equipment , this is even more true as the economy slows down.

"Professional Shooting League"
what part of that is confusing you?

Kent Owens
10-24-2008, 07:14 PM
Good idea Dan, and well thought out. My hat's off to you for putting it together. I think it'll work!

tim
10-24-2008, 08:13 PM
Wow, that is one hell of an impressive program and a fair piece of effort. It can only benefit BR shooting.

Carp
10-24-2008, 09:09 PM
Dan,
Great idea! You will have some growing pains before you're out of the gate though....3 of the matches within an hour or so to the SOUTHEASTERN shooters realms and a match in Missouri for the rest of us so far. If ONE was within 3 hours of me I would enter. But I will not drive 6 to 12 hours to compete in ONE! Get one close to me and I will go. Three in NC and VA combined.....You're looking to make a few folks in the East very heavy in their pockets! I hope this thing works for you. I would love to participate but get one fairly close.

Carp

Pops
10-24-2008, 09:15 PM
"Professional Shooting League"
what part of that is confusing you?

Its not , I am trying to encorage the growth . Have you ever been to the drag races and seen bracket racing ?

Don Stith
10-25-2008, 05:39 AM
One more suggestion...There are still a lot of hardheads like me that think sporter class, as defined by IR 50/50, is an important ingredient in rimfire competition. So far you have only addressed an unlimited category. I know that is consistent with ARA's approach; but leaves out an important aspect of benchrest competition. Seems like you could incorporate one sporter target in the 5 target round
Don

DonMatzeder
10-25-2008, 05:54 AM
Don, the majority of you hardheads either have a sporter and thus are in the club, smith sporters, or make light weight stocks for sporters. There already are National and Regional competitions for sporters. Accept this for what it is, the ultimate search for accuracy.

Don Stith
10-25-2008, 06:54 AM
DonM
No. This is a competition that includes a search for money. Ultimate accuracy has nothing to do with it.
I think it is an interesting idea and probably will support it. Just don't try to make it something that it is not.
If I accept your approach, then people who already have an UL rifle or make parts for an UL rifle are not welcome. There are already competitions at all levels for UL equipment. Your entire statement is not logical.
Don

Houston Harry
10-25-2008, 08:03 AM
Ok guys...someone comes up with a good or new idea and we start to poke holes and the blogging arguments start!!! What ever happened to crawl before you walk and walk before you run!!! If this program is to be successful it takes a lot of homework, research and hard work on Dan's part (and others) to pull it together. The bulk of the top notch ranges and shooters tend to be located in the eastern part of the country...let's start there (although I'd love to see the 5th match in Texas!!!). There is a large percentage of rimfire shooters in UL classes - as evidenced by the number of shooters at ARA, IR 50/50 13.5# and UL, along with the UL group at USBR... let's start there. In time, I believe this program can grow to service a number of classes, but the NUMBERS have to be there originally to fuel the growth. Sponsors and shooter participation are the key success factors...we need to encourage our ammo and equipment suppliers to come to the events and bring their wares - the more the better for us all! Have sponsors "buy-in" to the PSL (reasonable fee) to display the PSL logo on their marketing material and websites. I may be overly optimistic, but I do believe "if you build it, they will come..."

glynn angle
10-25-2008, 09:07 AM
There is no upside to picking this apart.
some of you guys were up mighty early this morning. For once let's all try to be supportive & see if can help help this be fun. What with all the negative economic NEWS, and dem Obomacrats trying to kill our minds with endless misleading ads we need something positive to talk about & DO. Best wishes to all, Glynn

Bill Wynne
10-25-2008, 09:29 AM
This is the beginning of maybe something that will last and grow. It will surely evolve from what it will be next year.

I know that none of us wants to harm this endeavor before it starts or even after it is going.

Dan has put his own time and thoughts and is willing to invest his own money into this. Let Dan lead this thing. If anyone has an idea that they think will make this thing better they should contact Dan and make the suggestion. We are entering an area that has not been entered before.

Having said all of that, I would like to see the final match here in Texas. Just a thought, Dan has a good range at his place and I am sure that the San Angelo bunch would be glad to help anyway we can.

Concho Bill

Pops
10-25-2008, 10:16 AM
The more people that you can get to attend a match and shoot the more likely you are to get the manufactures to attend and pony up some $$.

CliffA
10-25-2008, 02:27 PM
Look, do you and your car have what it takes to compete against big daddy Don, or Mr. Snow? Of course not, that’s why there’s bracket racing. So if you don’t have the skill and equipment for the PROFFESIONAL Shooting League then go shot IR50/50 or another league that supposedly handicaps things. If that’s not good enough start your own Amateur league.

LRCampos
10-25-2008, 03:03 PM
Reading the rules I understand a rail gun is allowed. Is that correct?

Bill Wynne
10-25-2008, 05:45 PM
Reading the rules I understand a rail gun is allowed. Is that correct?

It looks like it. Maybe an alteration to the rules are in order.

Concho Bill

DonMatzeder
10-25-2008, 05:47 PM
They've been allowed in ARA all along and have not created a problem. Have shot against a couple, they're beatable....

Bobby T.
10-25-2008, 06:00 PM
When is the last time you have seen a rail on the line in ARA?

Dan hope your League does well.

Later,
Bobby

DonMatzeder
10-25-2008, 06:08 PM
About a year ago at Springfield...

tim
10-25-2008, 07:26 PM
DonM
No. This is a competition that includes a search for money. Ultimate accuracy has nothing to do with it.
I think it is an interesting idea and probably will support it. Just don't try to make it something that it is not.
If I accept your approach, then people who already have an UL rifle or make parts for an UL rifle are not welcome. There are already competitions at all levels for UL equipment. Your entire statement is not logical.
Don

Don, the other side of that thought is that unless you shoot a 3-gun game I doubt you're going to build a sporter just for this. Would you?

Don Stith
10-26-2008, 06:28 AM
Tim
In a PROFESSIONAL competition, you build whatever is needed to compete. I have two excellent UL rifles. I just happen to prefer sporters. They are a little more about the shooter, and a little less about the equipment. Thought that might appeal to a serious competitor. That is why I suggested it.
I shoot everything, just like some better than others.
Don

BMoore
10-26-2008, 08:38 AM
Dan,

My hat is off to you. I am sure this post may cause a stir but here goes. I shoot RF mostly in the off season from 100,200,600 CF. However I may change my priorities considering this new opportunity. I do not have a sporter and will never have one. I will not compete in Sporter because I think it is fundamentaly flawed from its origional intent. I know the sporter class was intended to attract new shooters (squirrel rifles) but we all know the road to hell is paved with good intentions. The sporter class is quite possibly the most expensive and competitive classes in any organization. This has proven to be a prohibative factor in attracting new shooters. I understand the other side of the debate as no one wants a 3000.00 squirrel rifle in the closet. Your plan is outstanding considering all the major organizations have a HG or Unlimited class ie ONE RIFLE. You have not excluded anyone form shooting with your origional format. RUN WHAT YOU BRUNG...shoot a sporter, 10.5, 13.5, UL. I have had several shooters contact me in the last few days
that are willing to compete with the existing equipment they have or are interested in building a true unlimited rifle based on the possible winnings. Thank you very much for this opportunity. What you have put together here is the shot in the arm benchrest needed. I can only hope that the CF crowd will take your lead and get their part of the sport moving in such a positive direction.

Best regards,

Brian Moore

M. Fred
10-26-2008, 02:55 PM
Dan:

You could set up different chasses for shooters similar to trap shooting.
Based on proven skill such as aggregate or average. Trap has the following classifications:
98% and over Class AAA
96% and under 98% Class AA
94% and under 96% Class A
93% and under 94% Class B
90% and under 93% Class C
Under 90% Class D

In theory shooters of the same class compete against each other in tournaments for trophies and prizes. However, you must have so many targets or matches to obtain a classification. Shooters must shoot Class A if they have shot less than 50 ARA targets.
If a Class B shooter wins a match with a 2200 aggregate then the shooter will be re-classified as a Class A shooter and must shoot a minimum of 50 targets to be re-classified to a lower classification.

Just an example:
2100 and over aggregate Class A
2000 but less than 2100 Class B
1900 but less than 2000 Class C
Under1800 Class D

All shooter must shoot a minimum of 50 targets to be re-classified.

Just some Ideals to put on the table????????????? :)

shoot often
10-26-2008, 03:04 PM
Dan,
Great idea. Congrats in taking the steps to make it happen.
No classes, no handicaps, best score wins!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Takecare Kevin Kunkle

Colt.45
10-26-2008, 03:17 PM
Dan
I like your idea. I also like the idea of Open Class winner take all. No hadicapping no arranging rules where "we all can be winners" just straight up...Best Man Wins. If you want to shoot a Sporter fine... but no rule bending to make it a level playing field.This is not taking anything away from current benchrest but merely adding another competion to it. Anyway...great idea Dan.

KEN HARPER
10-26-2008, 03:36 PM
M. Fred,

Are you familiar with the term "sandbagging" as it pertains to trap and skeet? Handicapping based upon your skill level is a great idea in theory, but it simply didn't work in trap & skeet. A certain group of shooters would always shoot below their skill levels either intentionally or otherwise at smaller shoots to lower their handicap then at the big money shoots they would show up and shoot lights out to take home the big purses. Trap & skeet also had their "professional" shooters, also known as industry shooters, the ones who worked for Remington, Winchester, etc.

M. Fred
10-26-2008, 04:38 PM
:Ken:

Good point on sandbaggers. We have a State east of here that is famous for their sandbaggers. Especially, the short yardage handicap guys. Entirely to difficult to control. :eek:

dankillough
10-26-2008, 08:29 PM
I just got home from a weekend of shooting, and I was happy to see all of the posts.

Carp,
I would love to have a match in Indiana, but for an outdoor match we need at least 30 benches. I do not know of any in Indiana. For indoor matches we have Piney Hill and Rocky River. I do not know of any other indoor ranges that cater to rimfire. The outdoor matches are limited by facilities. Hopefully we will have some big crowds at these matches, and we do not want to shoot 5 relays. Hopefully this PSL series will grow and produce enough income for ranges to expand. Then we will be able to shoot at many different locations.

Don,
A sporter class would be good, but for right now I want to have a large payout. If we had a sporter class, we would have to split the money up between sporter and Unlimited or make it mandatory for everyone to shoot sporter. That would limit some people. Not everyone shoots sporters. A sporter class is definitely something I would like in the future.

LR Campus,
rail guns are fine. It must be .22lr, and you can not attach it to the bench.

B Moore,
I am glad to here from some of the centerfire shooters. I am really hoping this money will pull some centerfire shooters over into rimfire. I would also like to expand this to centerfire matches possibly one day, but let me get this going with rimfire first. We will worry about expanding once we get this one down.

M Fred,
classifications are something to consider. We are working on some different ideas to attract more shooters. In order for the PSL to be successful, we must have large numbers of shooters. So, we need something to attract those that do not end up in the money.

We really need advertisers. If anyone has any ties or connections with some advertising money, please contact me. If we can get some advertising money coming in, we can increase the size of the purse. We need to get advertising from outside of the shooting industry. We are advertising to males from age 30 to 80, so any company wanting to sell their products to this group is a possiblity.

Thank you for all of the great comments!

mike worthingto
10-27-2008, 05:34 AM
Holton Gun and Bow in Holton Michigan has 30 benches. It would be a great place for a PSl Series match in the mid west. They hold a lot of centerfire rejonal matches there and have some very tricky conditions to shoot in.Bill Wheeler is the match director and has held some great ARA matches.They have camping and motels close by. I am sure we could get Billl and the club to at least think about it.

MW:D

dankillough
10-27-2008, 11:15 AM
Don,

I have rethought what I said earlier and I have edited the post. If 2 competitors like Weaver and Sightron both want to advertise, they will be able too. We will just make sure they do not have their booth set up right next to one another.

Mike,

Michigan would be a good place to shoot. We will have to look at that for 2010.

Tenspot
10-27-2008, 11:24 AM
Some midwest upper midwest would be cool. There are a lot of shooters up here that could compete at any level, but 1100 miles (2200 RT) is a bit far for a working guy.

Doug
10-27-2008, 03:55 PM
I have not been following this thread but thought I would mention something.
I assume Since 90% of the benchrest organizations in the world use “Best Edge” scoring you would use this criterion instead of “Worst Edge”?
Of course you could make this an ARA Only “Professional Shooting League” and use “Worst Edge” scoring. :o

dankillough
10-27-2008, 04:07 PM
Doug,

It is best edge scoring.

Beau
10-27-2008, 04:22 PM
I guess pretty much a circle is a circle and a dot a dot and the measurement of shooting ability would be the same no matter what. Just the number would be different. But this is a tough target at least in relation to get a high score. It's hard to say how an ARA score would translate, but if you assume the dot would be the same size as an IR 50/50 dot, an IR score of 250-10X target would translate to about a 1750 on this target. That is, if I'm looking at the scoring correctly.

Bill B
10-27-2008, 05:02 PM
I like the NASCAR comparison. Let's make this just like NASCAR! We can get big gun company sponsorship (Remington, Winchester, Browning, Ruger, etc) and have our custom guns emblazend with their logos so the average Joe will identify our success with what they may be carrying shooting squirrels. By just paying a fee to the Organization, a Turbo Custom smited by Meyers could become a Winchester. A Hall Custom by Leger could become a Ruger. All we would have to do is just stick a logo on it and maybe we could put some sticker on it to kinda make it look like a Ruger varmit rifle. By getting long established gun mfgs. involved you would have an instant fan base. "Why looky what Bob Collins did shooting his Winchester rifle (spitting chew juice). Yup why I told ya thaze waz the bestest shootin' rifle they is." And if Bob Collins got sponsorship by Eley, I'm sure no one would think he was getting the best lots of ammo either. Naa, never happen, nobody would say that. :rolleyes:

And just like Bass fisherman get sponsored by boat mfgs. we could get sponsorship from whatever make of car or truck that we drive to the shoots. "If DJ Hepler drives a Chevy truck to his shoots, why that's what I'm gonna buy to drive to my shoots."

Yup, let's go professional just like NASCAR and Bass Fishin'. Great idea. :eek: :D

hi2utoo
10-27-2008, 06:54 PM
Well I think it's a great idea and my hope is it brings attention to the sport and helps bring new shooters to the benches. Being a new shooter, first year benchrest, the one thing that surprised me is the few shooters who participate. I've seen people talk about the cost, but heck look what it cost to do anything sport wise anymore. My thoughts are that folks just don't know about it. Heck I stumbled upon it on the internet. I think that there's a large untapped group, guys over 50, who have worked hard all their lives and finally have some extra money in their pockets. I'm not in advertising but have some ideas that may help and of course will share them with Dan.

As one person stated you have to crawl before you walk and Dan's taking his time, and money to try and make this work. As already mentioned facilities that can accommodate larger crowds are needed, clean restrooms so wives will tag along.

I'd like to see something like they do in golf and bowling where they have a Pro-Am and people can talk to the shooters and get a chance to shoot a target. Work with the clubs to combine Dan's events with ones they are having. Have a kids event the night before where the kids can shoot, have some targets setup at 25 yards for them and talk about guns and gun safety can be provided. There's so much that can be done through this that could help the sport. Try to get some of the manufactures and suppliers to run a small add in local newspapers within 50-60 miles of the event in the sports section. Now, if you can get a large outdoor outfit like Bass Pro Shop, Cabela's to put a link on their website it would definitely bring attention to the sport.

One example that I've seen in more recent years is the different fishing Redfish Tours. Couple of guys here in Texas started a tournament tour just for Texas a few years ago and now have a major boat manufacture backing them and a TV program, and this is just a local thing so it's possible.

Good Luck Dan I'm pulling for you.

Bill B
10-28-2008, 05:06 AM
To make any professional sport a success you need two things: 1) an audience. 2) Corporate sponsorship.

The reality is: Our sport is as much fun to watch as paint drying. Let's face it, we are not going to get spectators sitting in bleachers watching wind blow flags around, and a little bullet they can't see, punching holes they can't see, in targets they can't see. And it wouldn't exactly make great TV either.

Without an audience (TV or live) you are not going to get much interest from Corporate sponsors who are interested in selling their product to the masses. Without an audience to sell to, corporate sponsors will be few and far between.

If any of the shooting sports could make it on the professional level it would be one of the shotgun sports like Skeet or Sporting Clays. Benchrest shooting would be the least likely. But don't let me rain on your parade. Go for it, just don't invest too much of your own money in it.

Fiddler
10-28-2008, 06:49 AM
I think you have an excellent thing going here, like you said earlier maybe in the future you will be able to add a 3 Gun format as well. The 09 season is a few months away, but cabin fever has set in already with a few nay sayers. Lets just give it a chance and see how it goes, if it works "Great", if it doesn't then nothing lost. I hope it works since you will be investing a lot of money out of your pocket and you alone seem to be the only one that's willing to try something new for our Sport. Essayons!

Fatback
10-28-2008, 07:13 AM
Our sport as exciting as face painting. Round ball, long stick, little hole 400 yds away. Hit ball, in wind or no wind until it goes in the hole. Winner wins a million a week. On TV every week! Corporations love to sponsor this exciting game.

I can't speak for Dan but I don't believe his aspiration are quite this high. It would be a great evolution if it occurs. Hard work and a little hope go a long way. Math tells me a minimum of 55 entrys allows it to get started with minimual risk to anyone. Let the seedling be planted without so much critical banter. Participation will determine its growth. His ball, his game, want to play, I am sure he would love to have you, bring your gun and lets shoot!

dankillough
10-28-2008, 08:13 AM
Bill B,

You are correct. Nascar, NFL, NBA, MLB all have huge audiences. Then you have professional Bass fishing. Not much of an audience there. 2 guys in a boat and they can win $1,000,000 at a few select tournaments. If they can get a million, surely we can get a few thousand.

daletheman_3
10-28-2008, 09:10 AM
All of the other sports mentioned started somewhere. Yes our sport does not lead itself to speculating but there is a lot of money in equipment and ammo in it. Like mentioned before, fishing is not really much of a spectator sport (like us) and has a pretty sizable investment in equipment (like us). Why does it have the backing? Someone thought of a new way to promote it. That is what Dan is trying to do and at a risk to his own financial state. If you are like I am and want to see this grow and succeed, then encouragement and help is what he needs. If you keep picking it apart and saying it wont work, then you have nobody to blame when the entire sport just falls apart and you have nowhere to shoot, but yourself. Growth sustains us.

I see the possibility of growth here, big growth. But we have to crawl before we walk. Did any of the sponsored sports begin big and all? I mean with success, it could have classes added, have regions to participate in that lead to a national level. The possibilities are endless, but the foundation has to be laid first.

So Dan, I wish you only the best of luck in this as I see it only bettering the sport.

J Pappas
10-28-2008, 09:30 AM
Dan, I like your idea and will be proud to be a sponsor. I think other people who manufacture or sell products for rimfire shooters would want to be sponsors on some level. I know in the last year you have donated quite a bit to winners of matches. Being a sponsor would not keep me from being allowed to shoot in a match would it? ?

BJH
10-28-2008, 10:03 AM
Be nice James.....You don't want to hurt anyone's FEELINGS...Do you?:eek:

dankillough
10-28-2008, 10:46 AM
James,

Sponsors will be allowed to shoot, and I thank you for your sponsorship of the 1st target of each match.

None of the PSL employees will be competing however. That is the one thing about this that I do not like. I can not shoot in it:mad: Too big of a conflict of interest.

Tenspot
10-28-2008, 10:50 AM
You don't have to have an audience, corporate sponsors work just fine. I shoot competitive archery, I have a few sponsors that provide me with their product and I attend events wearing attire provided by them if required. They reduce the cost of me competing, and I help promote them. I get our league fees covered by local businesses. This is extremely common. I know people, male and female that shoot a bow for a living. Terry Ragsdale lives a few miles from me and was a pro shooter for PSE for 27 years, the only job he ever had. His wife did it for 25 years. Terry was 7 time world indoor champion.

Bottom line is this thing has legs. The big difference bewteen this and Archery is I shoot a PSE bow you can buy from your local shop and go hunt with if you like. Our equipment is not necessarily more expensive, but it is harder to come by.

hi2utoo
10-28-2008, 11:11 AM
James,

Sponsors will be allowed to shoot, and I thank you for your sponsorship of the 1st target of each match.

None of the PSL employees will be competing however. That is the one thing about this that I do not like. I can not shoot in it:mad: Too big of a conflict of interest.

OK Dan's out then I'm in :D Just kidding, man it's going to drive Dan Nuts sitting on the sidelines. Not to compare apple to oranges but I can see it now, Team owners with 4-5 shooters on the team, building rifles back at the shop, testing setups and sharing info between shooters, ammo etc.... RV's pulling in with the team logos, sponsors. Equipment chiefs handling the setups at the range, you name it. Spotters on each end of the range reporting wind shifts to thier shooter listening on headsets etc.... Yeah it sounds unreal but you never know.

My one hope is that it helps the associations, ARA, IR50/50 etc... to grow. As I stated in other post I'm new to this, first year, and I still believe that for whatever reason there should be more participates out there. Heck I live in a metro area of 1.3 million folks and I still think there's has to be at least a couple of hundred who would be involved with rimfire benchrest if they knew about it and had the chance of going out and seeing it or try it. Some of you have been at this a long time and probably have tried pulling in new shooters so I could be completely off in my thinking, but I'd like to be able to attend a match every week within a one hour drive of my house and see 20-30 shooters to compete with. Maybe just a pipe dream.

Les

J Pappas
10-28-2008, 12:35 PM
James,

Sponsors will be allowed to shoot, and I thank you for your sponsorship of the 1st target of each match.

None of the PSL employees will be competing however. That is the one thing about this that I do not like. I can not shoot in it:mad: Too big of a conflict of interest.

I hope you hire D.J., Jerry Graves, Bob Barnhart, Darrel Barnes, Joe Besche, Harry Deneen, Kirk Gaston, Richard Gorham and the buyer of SPEC 7, SOLD.

Kent Owens
10-28-2008, 12:39 PM
Just to throw this out there, but BR can be a great spectator sport. One place that I've shot had a camera and TV monitors hooked up to show you the targets being shot on screen. It was a lot of fun watching the other folks shoot on the monitor. I could even see where side bets could happen in a situation like that, even though we didn't do that.
I thought the monitors were a great idea. I allowed the other shooters to view the screen as the targets were being shot, kept 'em from being bored, and made for some good suspense as the shooter went along with a clean target, and folks wondering if he was going to miss or not.

J Pappas
10-28-2008, 01:08 PM
Just to throw this out there, but BR can be a great spectator sport. One place that I've shot had a camera and TV monitors hooked up to show you the targets being shot on screen. It was a lot of fun watching the other folks shoot on the monitor. I could even see where side bets could happen in a situation like that, even though we didn't do that.
I thought the monitors were a great idea. I allowed the other shooters to view the screen as the targets were being shot, kept 'em from being bored, and made for some good suspense as the shooter went along with a clean target, and folks wondering if he was going to miss or not.

Kent has a great idea. If at the end of the match there were monitors on the leaders targets that would be exciting to watch.

dankillough
10-28-2008, 03:03 PM
Remember, It is $5,500 total purse. $100 to each target winner for a total of $500. The remaining $5,000 is spread out over the top 10 finishers. So, win one target or finish 10th and you get your entry fee back.

The $5,500 is the minimum it will be. If we can get the sponsors on board, that number will go up.

cpeters
10-28-2008, 03:12 PM
OK,

So I re-read it and now I understand. I thought 1st place would be $5,500.

Charlie

Peter Armstrong
10-28-2008, 04:18 PM
Just to throw this out there, but BR can be a great spectator sport. One place that I've shot had a camera and TV monitors hooked up to show you the targets being shot on screen. It was a lot of fun watching the other folks shoot on the monitor. I could even see where side bets could happen in a situation like that, even though we didn't do that.
I thought the monitors were a great idea. I allowed the other shooters to view the screen as the targets were being shot, kept 'em from being bored, and made for some good suspense as the shooter went along with a clean target, and folks wondering if he was going to miss or not.

Kent

We shoot some matches on the electronic targets at the Olympic range in Sydney and there is a 6 inch computer screen on the bench and an overhead scoreboard over each bench similar to a bowling ally. As soon as you shoot the score goes up for everyone to view, if you have a long run of good shots everyone can see it, if you have a couple of bad shoots everyone can see it. Knowing everyone can see what you’re doing when you do it adds a whole new level of stress to the shooter, its good fun.

Peter

Picher
10-30-2008, 10:30 AM
Does this mean that anyone who shoots in the Professional League can't compete with us amateurs any more?

I really don't think we need worry too much about it in Maine. ;)

Picher

LRCampos
10-30-2008, 10:36 AM
Electronic or camera aimed targets!

We have two shooting ranges in my state that have these features and it is amazing how it can atract an audience!!

That was the way the ISSF found to boost the interest on olympic shooting and they got it right.

dankillough
10-30-2008, 10:39 AM
The PSL is proud to announce that Lapua has agreed to be the title sponsor for the inaugural Lapua Series in 2009. Lapua once again shows that they are dedicated to furthering shooting sports in America. The overall point champion at the end of the Lapua Series season will recieve a check for $5,000.

HovisKM
10-30-2008, 10:43 AM
Sound like a redistribution of wealth to me....from my pocket to others... :eek: :eek: Don't lynch me yet...just kidding. I really like the idea and the cameras are cool and not that expensive anymore. Drive on.

Hovis

Bill Wynne
10-30-2008, 11:08 AM
As I understand it, there is nothing about professional status mentioned in the amateur leagues we have now.

Concho Bill

cliffkeesee
10-30-2008, 03:25 PM
Thanks
To Lapua

Lapua has competive 22 Rimfire ammunition
The 2008 ARA Nationals was won with Lapua

The IR 50/50 3 Gun Nationals 6 Gun High Agg
Was won using Lapua & Eley

The PSL Un-limited Match at The Rocky River Barn in Feburday 2009
and The PSL Un-limited Match at The Piney Hill Benchrest at Luray VA in March 2009
will be interesting

lion
11-04-2008, 09:23 PM
Dan; I have to ask this. Now that Lapua is the title sponsor - are they going to have some X-Act in the country before the tournament or are we stuck trying to find midas + or center-X that shoots good? Not trying to be a jerk, I'd really like to know.

Wayne Juergens

dankillough
11-04-2008, 09:27 PM
Wayne,

I do not know. Call Charlie Scott, and I am sure he can help you.

Charles2442
11-05-2008, 01:26 PM
Due to the popularity of the x-act supplys in the us have been depleted temporarly. We are doing everything possible to get new stock. Thank you for your intrest and support in introducing this new product.

mojo2138
11-05-2008, 01:36 PM
Dan,
My question deals with wind or condition indicators....the rules for indoors matches.
Somebody else asked about the rules for flags. I've seen the helium filled mylar baloons before, but what about a small stand holding a stick of incense?
The smoke would be one of the best indicators and all on the line would get the same benefit as it would be visible to the shooters.

Legal or illegal? Thanks!

Joe Jarrell

dankillough
11-05-2008, 03:36 PM
Joe,

I will have to visit with each club to see about the incense.

Sounds good, well as long as you aren't smoking anything.:D

Don Stith
11-05-2008, 06:19 PM
There is enough smoke drifting around in the barns to make it hard to see the targets already. Adding incense smoke would be a disaster in waiting. Sure hope that idea does not go far.
Don

Fred J
11-05-2008, 07:15 PM
Don:
I just watch the Cob-Webs. I don't like Smoke in my good eye. I'd also like to see them ban smoking inside, or restrict it at the line, so people recovering from Lung Cancer and the Non-Smokers wouldn't suffer. Of course, that my opinion, not that it's humble.

Fred K
11-05-2008, 09:03 PM
I'm with you Fred J.

Fred K

Fiddler
11-06-2008, 06:25 AM
I'm with you on that myself. If they need to or have to smoke, it should be done outside, not inside. They stink also!!! Hard to say cause I use to smoke myself, can't stand it now.

dankillough
11-07-2008, 03:14 PM
The 5th match of 2009 has been confirmed. It will be held at the Central Texas Rifle & Pistol Club in Waco, TX on 10-3-09. They are finishing a new range, and it will be very nice.

dankillough
11-18-2008, 03:21 PM
James Pappas has agreed to be a target sponsor as well as pay a contingency fee.

ANY SHOOTER THAT WINS A TARGET WHILE USING A PAPPAS REST WILL BE PAID AN ADDITIONAL $50 BY PAPPAS.:D

So, that is $100 from the PSL and $50 from Pappas for a total of $150 if you are using his rest and you win the target.

Hmmm, I wonder if the barrel makers would do this, or the gunsmiths, or the stock makers, or the action makers, or the scope makers. James, I think you are on to something here.

THANK YOU JAMES PAPPAS FOR SUPPORTING OUR SPORT!

JLG.
11-18-2008, 08:03 PM
James Is a great person and has always helped the benchrest crowd out.If I was lucky enough to win a target using my Pappas rest you can give that$50 to a JR.shooter.James makes the best damn 1 piece rest money can buy look at Bob Barnhart for example he has won 2 nationals using a pappas rest and I would bet you that would be one of the last things he would ever part with!Jerry