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Paul Fielder
09-22-2008, 07:21 AM
....I meant to ask this some time ago.

I was at the range w/ a LEO buddy and was shooting my Les Baer AR w/ the Jewel trigger testing different weights & where their hit locations would be affected as it is really only used for hog hunting & have a bunch of different .223 ammo I need to use up.

I guess we were on round 10 when we heard a blap/blap....we both looked at eachother and agreed it was. Tried to duplicate and never happened again.

Back to the question. On a very accurate gun, if you did or could do a two shot burst....how far would you guess the shots would be apart at 100yds. By the time we tried to duplicate we had holes all over the different bulls.

Only one of the groups had a shot out of the main group by only 2-3" I would think a double would push it further but could not remember where it happened and we were both shooting so got lost??

Any thoughts?? Doesn't matter, just trying to satifsy my own curiosity.

pf
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chuck furniss
09-22-2008, 08:33 AM
Paul.
I am assuming that you are reffering to vertical stringing during full auto or very rapid fire.
During the early 60's the army noticed that recruits had difficulty controling the m-14 on full auto fire. The first shot would be on target the second in the trees and the third somewhere in the clouds.This was one of the reasons that spawned the birth of the m16.
The main causes of vertical rise at the muzzel are recoil,the shape of the stock where the butt is lower than the bore and the pendoulous movement of the shooter as the recoil pushes the upper body rearward while the lower body stays put.
There are several fixes for this,---A muzzle brake that deflects the gasses upward,heavier barrel.a buttstock with the center of contact at or above the axis of the bore.None are perfect.

Chuck.

Paul Fielder
09-22-2008, 08:48 AM
.....exactly what I want to know. Did my 2nd auto shot go 2-3" high or off the paper?? All the other groups were under an inch & we should have counted brass and gone down to the target right when it happened....too late for that now & the auto was obviously a one time deal.

This AR weighs a ton with the 24" non taper varmint bbl...not sure we can compare the older ones to what happened with mine.

I have some buddies and LEO who have class III stuff but nothing like the configuration. Can't compare light weight shorty M4's and Uzi / Macs to mine so not going to even ask them.

No big deal....just curious.

pf
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HovisKM
09-22-2008, 09:18 AM
It's hard telling wear that shot went but if you were shooting off rests, I'd say a few inches. I could keep a 20rd clip in about 10 inches at 25yds full auto and a little better with the A2 3shot burst. That's after ten of thousand of rds praticing at the goverments expense. It ain't like the movies.

Hovis

Paul Fielder
09-22-2008, 09:49 AM
It's hard telling wear that shot went but if you were shooting off rests, I'd say a few inches. I could keep a 20rd clip in about 10 inches at 25yds full auto and a little better with the A2 3shot burst. That's after ten of thousand of rds praticing at the goverments expense. It ain't like the movies.

Hovis

...heavy gun w/ a heavy scope 30mm 56 objective.

It was a very fast double....I too THINK it stayed on paper but no way to confirm & I'm not gonna go buy a $10k auto sear to shoot in a Les Baer to find out:-)

pf
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HovisKM
09-22-2008, 10:07 AM
Paul,
The only thing you end up with when messing with full auto is......less money.

For those who haven't expended hundreds of thousands of rounds on full auto...it's exicting to watch but it just doesn't blow my whistle anymore...especially if I was paying for the ammo. If you live close to a military base and can get a group together with ten or more (more the marrier) you can usually contact the post and arrange the group for a visit during firing exercises. It's pretty cool to see the fire power that america can bring down on the enemy. I've seen it all and I still get the best kick out of JDAM's, M1A2 Abrams and the old A-10 thunderbolt 30mm cannon. They sure bring a smile to anyones face.....as long as your not on the receiving end. :D

Hovis

Paul Fielder
09-22-2008, 10:35 AM
Paul,
The only thing you end up with when messing with full auto is......less money.

For those who haven't expended hundreds of thousands of rounds on full auto...it's exicting to watch but it just doesn't blow my whistle anymore...especially if I was paying for the ammo. If you live close to a military base and can get a group together with ten or more (more the marrier) you can usually contact the post and arrange the group for a visit during firing exercises. It's pretty cool to see the fire power that america can bring down on the enemy. I've seen it all and I still get the best kick out of JDAM's, M1A2 Abrams and the old A-10 thunderbolt 30mm cannon. They sure bring a smile to anyones face.....as long as your not on the receiving end. :D

Hovis

My only interest is full auto would be for an investment. I had an opportunity to buy a new in the box M16 a few years back for $6k.....same gun is now upwards of $20k-$25k.

Mint original full auto's are some of the best place you can put your money. A very small drying up pool of legal guns we can buy. I think a mint tommy gun in the factory violin case could reach close to 6 figures!!

I shoot a full auto every now and then with buddies who have them & they do make you smile (especially on their ammo dime), but really just doesn't float my boat...guess I'm more of one shot one kill. I know nothing of combat but "think" I would have mine switched in single / semi most of the time.

pf
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rudedog
09-22-2008, 09:22 PM
I had a super match M1A in the 80s that i put a trigger shoe on.After a lot of shooting,months probably it started to double tap.Second shot was usually 2 to3 inches higher than the first shot,off a bench,took a little while to figure out the problem.

Rudy Manuel

HovisKM
09-23-2008, 12:07 PM
Paul,
I'm looking into building a cannon. Hopefully a med size. Big booms are always entertaining as long as they are safe.

The only thing I ever worried about when it came to Class III firearms, is the next election :eek:

Hovis

Paul Fielder
09-23-2008, 12:19 PM
Paul,
I'm looking into building a cannon. Hopefully a med size. Big booms are always entertaining as long as they are safe.

The only thing I ever worried about when it came to Class III firearms, is the next election :eek:

Hovis

....has a big boomer that he uses for the scouts. Man, that thing will pull the boogers out of your nose. I forget but I think he uses black powder. It's a non functioning replica of some civil war canon...pretty neat.

My wallet can't support a class III machine gun, but suppressors sure are fun. Shooting a suppressed .22 with Eley sub sonic hollow points will make you smile like a full auto.

I worry about the class III stuff myself. I wish JM was a life NRA member like his hot veep running mate:-)

pf
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brian roberts
09-28-2008, 01:46 PM
Paul; I installed a Jewell two-stage in an AR platform for a friend & adjusted it to where it felt "right", w/out firing(couldn't get to the range). Problem was, it would double at times, so while at the range for the first firing, the owner adjusted the first stage up, so it wouldn't "pre-load" the 2nd stage under recoil, allowing it to double; then adjusted the second stage a smidge heavier, problem resolved. Now, I don't believe Brownell's carries that particular trigger anymore, & wonder if Jewell still makes it, for that reason. The point being, there was a fellow who had an Olympic Arms AR that at times doubled, & he loaned it to a friend who somehow attracted the wrong attention at the range. The FIRST time the ATF tested the rifle, the report from their lab said the rifle was a malfunctioning semi-auto. But obviously, that wasn't good enough for the purposes/results desired. The SECOND time the ATF tested it, it was a "machine gun", & the owner was charged, tried & convicted of: "Unlawful Transfer of an Automatic Weapon". Now, Olympic Arms had had a fire, & many of their records had been destroyed, but they had sent out many letters & ads concerning these guns, so that the problems could be rectified, however, THAT gun's owner had never gotten the "word" on this. And, the ATF had "modified" the gun so it would fire like that more frequently than "once-in-a-great-while" & NONE of this information was allowed to be presented to the jury that convicted this man, who had something like 16-18yrs. as a reservist. Point being, don't fool around w/something like that, FIX IT, & keep it fixed, or replace it! For your own good, because you never know who's watching(word to the wise).

Paul Fielder
09-28-2008, 07:54 PM
Paul; I installed a Jewell two-stage in an AR platform for a friend & adjusted it to where it felt "right", w/out firing(couldn't get to the range). Problem was, it would double at times, so while at the range for the first firing, the owner adjusted the first stage up, so it wouldn't "pre-load" the 2nd stage under recoil, allowing it to double; then adjusted the second stage a smidge heavier, problem resolved. Now, I don't believe Brownell's carries that particular trigger anymore, & wonder if Jewell still makes it, for that reason. The point being, there was a fellow who had an Olympic Arms AR that at times doubled, & he loaned it to a friend who somehow attracted the wrong attention at the range. The FIRST time the ATF tested the rifle, the report from their lab said the rifle was a malfunctioning semi-auto. But obviously, that wasn't good enough for the purposes/results desired. The SECOND time the ATF tested it, it was a "machine gun", & the owner was charged, tried & convicted of: "Unlawful Transfer of an Automatic Weapon". Now, Olympic Arms had had a fire, & many of their records had been destroyed, but they had sent out many letters & ads concerning these guns, so that the problems could be rectified, however, THAT gun's owner had never gotten the "word" on this. And, the ATF had "modified" the gun so it would fire like that more frequently than "once-in-a-great-while" & NONE of this information was allowed to be presented to the jury that convicted this man, who had something like 16-18yrs. as a reservist. Point being, don't fool around w/something like that, FIX IT, & keep it fixed, or replace it! For your own good, because you never know who's watching(word to the wise).

Appreciate the concern...I have local contacts with ATF & The witness to the 'supposed' double was a fed leo when it happened. I have never touched the Jewell since it was new...the adjustment came from Les Baer as is & a great 2.5lb trigger & breaks like glass. It has been a couple of years ago since I bought it.

I guess I have had a hundred rounds since w/ no problems. Got nothing to fix unless it happens again.

My question was more of shot placement and has worked perfect before and since. Like I said...we tried and I have shot it numberous times since hunting and on the range. Cannot duplicate. One of those deals??

pf
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brian roberts
09-29-2008, 07:20 PM
Just be careful, you never know, then, when/if something goes South, you have a problem, you ask the "contacts" "....why didn't you tell me?...." the reply might be something like, "....I couldn't...following orders..." OR(my favorite) "....yeah, well, its called a paycheck, that's why...." The reason why I told you is because you never know who might decide to "build a rep" higher up. What's the old saying: "an ounce of prevention....?" This is why I'm not a fan of some of the "National Match" & "Super Match" rifles offerred by some purveyors, as I've seen them work these actions over until they have that "butter-smooth lock-up" & "Astounding Trigger" that only(insert favorite peddler here)can bring you! Problem is, some of these wares are worked so much to begin with, that when they get some age (use) on them in round-count, they become unreliable, possibly dangerous, & some guys say, "Well, it only does it ONCE IN AWHILE"... just thought I'd make you aware of the potential for a problem, nothing more.

Paul Fielder
09-29-2008, 08:52 PM
Just be careful, you never know, then, when/if something goes South, you have a problem, you ask the "contacts" "....why didn't you tell me?...." the reply might be something like, "....I couldn't...following orders..." OR(my favorite) "....yeah, well, its called a paycheck, that's why...." The reason why I told you is because you never know who might decide to "build a rep" higher up. What's the old saying: "an ounce of prevention....?" This is why I'm not a fan of some of the "National Match" & "Super Match" rifles offerred by some purveyors, as I've seen them work these actions over until they have that "butter-smooth lock-up" & "Astounding Trigger" that only(insert favorite peddler here)can bring you! Problem is, some of these wares are worked so much to begin with, that when they get some age (use) on them in round-count, they become unreliable, possibly dangerous, & some guys say, "Well, it only does it ONCE IN AWHILE"... just thought I'd make you aware of the potential for a problem, nothing more.


..who knows....I have several friends & leo buds who want me to get my class III lic but the extra paperwork is just kind of a turn off.

Maybe I'll play w/ the adjustments and try to dupicate & also call Les to see what / if any history.

pf
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