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View Full Version : Two gun LT and HV Score Match



Jerry Reisdorff
09-02-2008, 01:06 PM
Would there be any intrest in a VFS match that you shoot a LT 10.5 gun and heavy 13.5 gun for a range two gun winner ? :D

Thanks Jerry

Bill Whitener
09-02-2008, 01:25 PM
Yes n Now Where?:rolleyes:

AVanGorder
09-02-2008, 01:29 PM
Two gun match, light and heavy, VFS. I like it.

Jerry Reisdorff
09-02-2008, 02:25 PM
Yes n Now Where?:rolleyes:

Bill,

I am trying to set this up at the Fair Fax Rod and Gun Club in the Winter match series.

Jerry

TBonz
09-03-2008, 11:07 AM
I like it!!!

Make it a 3 gun and add Factory too!!! OK...now I'm getting CRAZY!!!

Tom

Dave Short
09-03-2008, 11:59 AM
Then everyone could shoot 2 HV's and 2 LV's and have four times the chance of winning something and then...and then......and then...........ZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzz

-D-:rolleyes:

David Apple
09-03-2008, 12:45 PM
Jerry,
Book it, we're in. Shooting 2 aggs a day with 7 minute matches is the way to go.
The agenda item enabling clubs to hold separate LV & HV score matches was passed a couple of years ago and to date no one to my knowledge has held a match in this format. It was an attempt to give parity to the PPC shooters who felt they were out gunned by the 30's. So where are they now??? :rolleyes:

Jerry Reisdorff
09-03-2008, 01:27 PM
All,

I think we could do a one day two gun match ie...

LV 10.5 lb - any Cal - 100 yard 7 min time - 5 target no warm up match

and then a

HV 13.5 lb any Cal 100 yard 7 min 5 target no warm up match

Combine both scores for the two gun champion.

Kick in a little prize money at signup???? :eek:

Jerry

AVanGorder
09-03-2008, 02:14 PM
Jerry,
Book it, we're in. Shooting 2 aggs a day with 7 minute matches is the way to go.
The agenda item enabling clubs to hold separate LV & HV score matches was passed a couple of years ago and to date no one to my knowledge has held a match in this format. It was an attempt to give parity to the PPC shooters who felt they were out gunned by the 30's. So where are they now??? :rolleyes:

Could the two matches be run at the same time? Some car races have two different classes on the track at the same time. Two different races, they just happen to be on the track at the same time.

TBonz
09-03-2008, 02:28 PM
Could the two matches be run at the same time? Some car races have two different classes on the track at the same time. Two different races, they just happen to be on the track at the same time.

That would work as long as you have 2 relays...you could still do warm ups and it would take less time than the 2 matches - might be better with less time especially during the winter...

Tom

Ed S
09-03-2008, 03:00 PM
I don't think two relays would work for competitors wanting to shoot two LV and two HV rifles. Not everyone shoots coated bullets and comes pre-loaded and those that don't will need time to clean and reload brass. Four relays would likely be the minimum and probably make the match unworkable, especially in the short days of Winter. The idea of entering TWO guns was a good one. Shoot LV in the AM with two relays, and HV in the afternoon, again with two relays (or switch the order if you like). Ed

TBonz
09-03-2008, 03:08 PM
I don't think two relays would work for competitors wanting to shoot two LV and two HV rifles. Not everyone shoots coated bullets and comes pre-loaded and those that don't will need time to clean and reload brass. Four relays would likely be the minimum and probably make the match unworkable, especially in the short days of Winter. The idea of entering TWO guns was a good one. Shoot LV in the AM with two relays, and HV in the afternoon, again with two relays (or switch the order if you like). Ed

The thought would be to have 2 relays with those who wanted to shooting one HV and one LV - not 2 of each...there will certainly be some who may wish to shoot only one rifle and maybe some others who choose to shoot in factory or some other "club" category...

I can see that it might be rushed if someone wasn't pre-loaded...possibly adding a 3rd (total) relay would give everyone enough time to load, etc. and still allow them to shoot 2 rifles in fewer total relays...

Tom

Hal D.
09-03-2008, 04:16 PM
A few things. First, there will be absolutely no extra work given to the people that are already keeping the matches running at Fairfax. Second, forget about running separate aggs for LV and HV, not gonna happen. Third, there won't be any burden on those only choosing to compete with only one gun...two gun competitors will have to pony up the prize money for 2-gun awards. This would leave things pretty much exactly as they are now, except for tabulating the scores for two gun competitors. Someone needs to do the score keeping and someone needs to do the awards. Show of hands please:D

Hal D.
09-03-2008, 04:28 PM
You talk dirty.
Five 7 minute matches for LV and then five 7 minute matches for HV.
NBRSA has been doing it for years.

Francis, the problem with two seperate aggs for each class has to do with IBS Precision Rifleman points. Full points cannot be had unless at least 20 shooters start the agg. If we had separate aggs, we wouldn't get 20 guns for either HV or LV. The Big Picture for any who wish to be considered a top shooter in IBS are the three levels of Precision Rifleman status. As far as 7 minute matches, thats all we run now.

Wayne Shaw
09-03-2008, 04:36 PM
Hal has it right. We'll run the matches as always. We shoot two relays, those that choose to compete in the 2-gun, will shoot both relays. We never (intentionally) start a match with someone not present due to cleaning and reloading. It has happened and we apologize. It was by accident. Someone who is competing in the 2-gun will do the stats, utilizing the scores from the match. Any awards or cash payout for the 2-gun will be handled by the 2-gun competitors, from fees collected from the 2-gun shooters.

Hal D.
09-03-2008, 05:01 PM
Along come father, son, and grandson sharing equipment. No third relay. Who stays home? It happens in Michigan at one range and father, son, and grandson all stay home. What is the difference in shooting two relays slowly and shooting three relays????? In time???????? - none.

Francis, we already have quite a few shooters that shoot 2 guns in these matches, no problems at all. We have enough benches that we don't need a third relay, ever. Of course if a third relay is needed to accommodate shooters needing to share equipment, then we have 3 relays.

Al Nyhus
09-03-2008, 05:20 PM
Shooting 2 aggs a day with 7 minute matches is the way to go.:

Dave..we've been doing this for quite a few seasons out here. 100 in the morning and 200 in the afternoon. Starting at 0900 with two relays, 7 minute matches and a warm up at each yardage, we're usually done by 4:30 or so on Saturday. On Sunday, we'll do the same.



The agenda item enabling clubs to hold separate LV & HV score matches was passed a couple of years ago and to date no one to my knowledge has held a match in this format. It was an attempt to give parity to the PPC shooters who felt they were out gunned by the 30's. So where are they now??? :rolleyes:

Dave, 'yer killin' me here...just killin' me! :D Hopes were high for a knock down, drag out, bar room brawl between the 10.5 lb. 6mms and those dunderheaded individuals who were foolish enough to want to wrestle a 10.5 30BR and swim upstream in the L.V. River of No Return. ;) Some cretins went so far as to build a seperate new 10.5 lb. 30BR gun just for the occasion. :eek: Me, for example. :(

But it never happened. And that's a shame 'cuz the 6's versus the .30's in a LV format would be such a hoot for everyone.

Hope you guys can get this going out there. :) -Al

AVanGorder
09-03-2008, 05:30 PM
...Hope you guys can get this going out there. :) -Al

I also.

Hal D.
09-03-2008, 05:58 PM
Dave..we've been doing this for quite a few seasons out here. 100 in the morning and 200 in the afternoon. Starting at 0900 with two relays, 7 minute matches and a warm up at each yardage, we're usually done by 4:30 or so on Saturday. On Sunday, we'll do the same.-Al

Al, thats not what these guys are talking about. We have run 100 and 200 in the same day at Fairfax. Dave's talking about running it like a group match, LV100 in the AM and HV100 in the PM. There are simply not enough light guns out there to make this worth while IMO. Running a 100yd agg in the AM and a 200yd agg in the PM is fine, with one exception...not enough help. The only 2 yardage match we had this year, I couldn't shoot at all because we didn't have enough help. I am all for expanding the shoots at Fairfax, matter of fact I have the desire to take benchrest at Fairfax to a whole new level. Talk is cheap though. Who else is willing to step up and help make it happen?

Dave Short
09-03-2008, 07:54 PM
The agenda item enabling clubs to hold separate LV & HV score matches was passed a couple of years ago and to date no one to my knowledge has held a match in this format. It was an attempt to give parity to the PPC shooters who felt they were out gunned by the 30's. So where are they now???

David, Cutting a bigger hole isn't "outgunning" anyone. That's just common sense.

The agenda item was "passed" last January, not a couple of years ago, right?

Where are "they" now? Waiting, it seems. You answered that one yourself in the sentence before: "......to date no one to my knowledge has held a match in this format."

-Dave-:)

David Apple
09-03-2008, 09:27 PM
First of all, this was Jerry's deal, asking about interest in shooting LV/HV, not my deal. I am all for shooting whatever be it LV or HV. And I applaud the crew at Fairfax for holding matches in a 2 agg format as well as 7 minute matches.
Al, change comes slowly here on the Eastern seaboard. I know the rest of the country has been doing it for years but....I am thankful for the opportunities that are present.
It would be neat to shoot a LV only 2 yardage match. That possibliity now exists where before it couldn't legally happen. Again, I don't really care about the format, let's shoot.


Cutting a bigger hole isn't "outgunning" anyone. That's just common sense.

The agenda item was "passed" last January, not a couple of years ago, right?

Where are "they" now? Waiting, it seems. You answered that one yourself in the sentence before: "......to date no one to my knowledge has held a match in this format."

-Dave-



Stop yer whining :p

Dave Short
09-03-2008, 09:47 PM
Apple, it's a good thing you ain't a fish....................you bite EVERY time! I trolled only twice in a sea of possible responses, hoping you'd bite; you did both times.

That LV only 2 yardage match you mentioned sounds like a good time..............

-Dave-:)

Jerry Frodsier
09-03-2008, 11:09 PM
Hal has it right. We'll run the matches as always. We shoot two relays, those that choose to compete in the 2-gun, will shoot both relays.

Any awards or cash payout for the 2-gun will be handled by the 2-gun competitors, from fees collected from the 2-gun shooters.

So Wayne are you going to join in ?

Hal, so far - the only things that need doing is get the money, si ferr the score, and give out the money - so I can get that done. :D

Jerry

Al Nyhus
09-04-2008, 10:24 AM
Understood, Hal. :)

I was trying to point out (badly, it seems:o) that 'two agg.' day is a win-win for shooters. :)

Good shootin'. -Al

AVanGorder
09-04-2008, 12:37 PM
At the next match, during the shooters meeting, ask a couple questions of the people who are there shooting.

If we recognized LV, who would shoot it?
If we had a Two Gun (LV / HV) Award, who would shoot it?
Who is willing to volunteer for today's match?

TBonz
09-04-2008, 02:41 PM
Good idea Adrian...next match is Sunday at Fairfax, right? That should get at least a start on the input...

Wish I could be there, but I have to attend Shane's double-header...not that its a bad thing - just that I wish I could be in both places! Might be able to hit the range on Saturday though for a few hours...

Tom

David Apple
09-04-2008, 08:51 PM
Apple, it's a good thing you ain't a fish....................you bite EVERY time! I trolled only twice in a sea of possible responses, hoping you'd bite; you did both times.

That LV only 2 yardage match you mentioned sounds like a good time..............

-Dave-:)

Thank you for your informative on topic post. It is very meaningful and revealing.

Jim Borden
09-05-2008, 06:56 AM
I believe that running 2 separate aggregates will bring more shooters than running concurrent--there are far more LV shooters out there that have quit shooting score than HV shooters that we have shooting score.

I have also believed that there are a number of Hunter rifles in closets collecting dust because the guys will not shoot 2 guns in 1 agg--having a separate agg for the 6X guns could work to increase participation there as well.

The point of the agenda item as I understood it was that separating LV from HV in a single agg will hurt the PR points--cause lots of folks will NOT shoot 2 guns in 1 agg. So-the agenda item took it s step further and separated the firing of the classes--I personally think it has merit.

I also believe that continuing to allow multiple guns of same class from 1 competitor in an agg will hurt attendance--you won't hear about it--they will just not show up.

Jim

Dave Short
09-05-2008, 07:44 AM
Thank you for your informative on topic post. It is very meaningful and revealing.

You're welcome!

-D-:)

Dave Short
09-05-2008, 07:50 AM
I believe that running 2 separate aggregates will bring more shooters than running concurrent--there are far more LV shooters out there that have quit shooting score than HV shooters that we have shooting score.

I have also believed that there are a number of Hunter rifles in closets collecting dust because the guys will not shoot 2 guns in 1 agg--having a separate agg for the 6X guns could work to increase participation there as well.

The point of the agenda item as I understood it was that separating LV from HV in a single agg will hurt the PR points--cause lots of folks will NOT shoot 2 guns in 1 agg. So-the agenda item took it s step further and separated the firing of the classes--I personally think it has merit.

I also believe that continuing to allow multiple guns of same class from 1 competitor in an agg will hurt attendance--you won't hear about it--they will just not show up.

Jim

Well said, Jim. I eluded to the 2 guns of the same class (LV/LV, HV/HV, maybe even VFS/VFS) thing in an earlier post. A good shooter with a good rifle has a chance of winning any match. The difference between winning and second place (or lower) is who makes the best choices and makes the least mistakes. IMHO, having two (or more) chances at delivering each of the 25 record shots just seems kind of, well, "cheesy".....JMHO.

-Dave-:)