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View Full Version : 30PPC and N120.....Redux



jackie schmidt
08-24-2008, 09:40 PM
Back when I first started my 30PPC project, I began with N120 Powder with the 112 BIB. I was really stuck on the notion of going over 3000 fps, and we did achieve that with really good accuracy.

Then we discovered the Australian IMR 4227 that really got the job done. Shooting at about 3000 fps, accuracy was great, but I must admitt, case life is on the brief side of short.

This week end, I decided to revisit the N120, but with a different take. Tame it down some, seeing if the agging capability could be maintained at a lower pressure, and achieve better case life.

This mainly came about due to my conversations with other shooters who are shooting the 30PPC. Mike Southard up in Oklohoma is using a barrel I sent him with great results. But, he said he was using 4198.

I always figured 4198 would be too slow for this combo, so he must be achieving great accuracy with a lower pressure load.

I started today with the N120 and 112 BIB at about 3000 fps, and it acted a little eractic, so I kept dropping the charge a tad untill the 35P indicated a flat 2900 fps average. This proved to be a winner. The total velocity spread on 9 shots was at about 14 fps, and the Standard Deviation was at 6.

I shot a couple of nice round "mid ones", and then hung some score targets. After all, this is a score Rifle. I nailed a 50 4x backed up by a 50 5x.

Ed Bernabeo, who shoots the same combination as I do, put the same load in his 30PPC and saw equal results.

The bottom line is, I have been trying to push this little cartridge a tad too hard. Giving up 100+ fps with no loss in overall accuracy, combined with good case life, seems to be a big plus.

Perhaps in cooler weather, the 4227 would not be so hard on the brass. But in 100 degree temperatures, case life is as short as 3 firings before the primer pockets get really loose.

Sometimes it pays to not get hung up on one idea, but re-visit a set-up to see if perhaps something was missed the first go round.

We are always learning something new about the 30PPC, it is an on-going project that shows to be phenominolly accurate, and easy on the shoulder......jackie

Wilbur
08-25-2008, 03:50 AM
Somewhere between hung up and not hung up.

Pete Wass
08-25-2008, 06:01 AM
Is the steep ramp of pressure when one gets drawn into the vortex of SPEED. I have been using H-4198 in my 30-45 lately. It is shootig well @ 37.5g but the primers are round and the bolt lift is very soft. Just for the heck of it I decided to try going up to see where the limits were. At 40g the primers had just started to flatten out and the bolt lift was still pretty good (3168fps. 118g bullet). I went another .5g and the primer blew out of the case.

I have had the same experience with all the hotter powders I have tried. The need for speed is captivating but can be distructive.

Dick Grosbier
08-25-2008, 06:29 AM
This mainly came about due to my conversations with other shooters who are shooting the 30PPC. Mike Southard up in Oklohoma is using a barrel I sent him with great results. But, he said he was using 4198.

I always figured 4198 would be too slow for this combo, so he must be achieving great accuracy with a lower pressure load.
......jackie

Jackie
Have you tried a case full of H4198 ?
It or even less might just work I know people shooting 30 BR's with as little as 32 Grains and as much as 37 Gr. It probably will not give you the velocity you prefer in the 30 PPC but it might do well at 2900

jackie schmidt
08-25-2008, 07:00 AM
I tried N130 in the beginning, it was on the slow side. A case full never got anywhere near 2900. Since it is about the same rate as most 4198, I always figured 4198 would be too slow as well. .

The N120 performed very good at 2900 yesterday. The primers still had some radius in the corners, and extraction was a breeze.

I will get a can of 4198 and give it a try next range session. That may be in a month, as I now have to devote my time getting ready for our final Rgion Match, the Buffalo Shoot........jackie

steve stanley
08-25-2008, 07:57 AM
Jackie, N130 is 1 gr slower than 4198 in my guns and from what i hear from others they are getting similar results. It takes 1 gr. more 130 to get the same velocity as 4198, so it might give you what you want. Steve

Pete in Surry
08-25-2008, 08:57 AM
Turns out to be a pretty dern good powder. I used N-130 for years and liked it but am finding that I like the H-4198 a lot better. I am also using H-322 in a 30-47 I just started shooting. It seems to be nice as well. Can someone tell me how H-322 compairs to Benchmark? Thanks.

R. G. Robinett
08-25-2008, 09:31 AM
Turns out to be a pretty dern good powder. I used N-130 for years and liked it but am finding that I like the H-4198 a lot better. I am also using H-322 in a 30-47 I just started shooting. It seems to be nice as well. Can someone tell me how H-322 compairs to Benchmark? Thanks.

According to Hogdon, H-322 is one step "faster" than BM - but these charts are determined via "closed'bomb" tests - once the expansion ratio changes (bore diameter, etc.), "burn-rates" , "go up in smoke" ! :eek::D The "closed-bomb" is a finite, thus static comparison.

For the past two seasons, using <125 Gr. bullets and the 30x47HBR chambering, H-322 (Extreme), made by ADI, has provided most pleasing results. I won't tell you the charge weight, but, it's a LOT more than was possible with the "old" versions of H-322. The "newer" version being not dis-similar to the GREAT, but discontinued Scott Brigadier 3032, or, current Lots N-135, etc.

Using the BR/PPC capaicity cases, in combination with the 30 caliber expansion ratio, the "burn-rate" of H-4198 (Extreme) results in a charge weight/volume : pressure ratio similar to using H-4831 and 130 Gr. (.277) bullets in a .270 Winchester . . . but, the SAME powder, from the same canister, in combination with a 22 or 6MM expansion ratio - even with a bullet of but one-half the weight, may well blow your head off !:eek: Yes, in combination with the greater (30 Caliber) expansion ratio, it's as though the H-4198 becomes a completely different powder. :D Observe all safety precautions! Good shootin'! RG

AVanGorder
08-25-2008, 09:36 AM
Jackie,

There are a couple of us in Virginia that are using N120. I don't know the exact powder charge I'm using, but I do run a 110 bullet right at 3000fps and I'm still on the original 50 pieces of brass I started with over a year ago.

Adrian

jackie schmidt
08-25-2008, 09:50 AM
That is what I found with the N130 in my 30PPC. That is just what I have experienced with my 30 PPC, you simply cannot get enough in there when using the 112 grn bullet. The pressure curve is just too slow.
Of course, it would probably work great with a 130 grn bullet, but that is sort of defeating the whole purpose of this little project. That being, light recoil, small muzzle blast, in conjunction with tack driving accuracy.

These things are really fun to play with. It is amazing how deadly accurate these things are at 100 yards.

If our Club Match program takes off like I hope it will in the coming year, (we shoot just 100 yards for score), I look for a lot of locals to be building one of these, a rather single purpose Rifle to shoot a specific match.

And you know what that means. They all gotta have bullets!!........jackie

caroby
08-25-2008, 12:03 PM
Hey Jackie,

These things are really fun to play with. It is amazing how deadly accurate these things are at 100 yards

Yes, me and Mike Southard have found what you have said to be REALLY true.
Though I'm shoot'n a 30BR...

These .30s are so TRUE ... Bullets, Barrels are Damn GOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!;)

cale

Pete Wass
08-25-2008, 12:12 PM
They wouldn't be deadly @ 200 and 300 yds? We shoot 7 or 8 200 and 3 300 yard matches each year and the short 30's have been king of them for quite a few years now. I have never been abble to see any difference between the way 112's or 117's fly, personally. If one is into the conditions, they work just fine.

rhaney2
08-25-2008, 06:52 PM
I tried N130 in the beginning, it was on the slow side. A case full never got anywhere near 2900. Since it is about the same rate as most 4198, I always figured 4198 would be too slow as well. .

The N120 performed very good at 2900 yesterday. The primers still had some radius in the corners, and extraction was a breeze.

I will get a can of 4198 and give it a try next range session. That may be in a month, as I now have to devote my time getting ready for our final Rgion Match, the Buffalo Shoot........jackie

Jackie,i had 2 -8lb jugs of n-120 was going to try it this week if the weather gets better.
I;m using the new berger 115 grain bullet,so far it has shot great with 4198 but i want something better.
what was the max load with n-120 you consider safe on cases.

jackie schmidt
08-25-2008, 07:37 PM
I feel safe in posting this load. We were shooting 28.8 grns of N120, 112 BIB, 1-17 twist 22 1/2 inch barrel, jammed about .015 in.......jackie

rhaney2
08-25-2008, 07:49 PM
I feel safe in posting this load. We were shooting 28.8 grns of N120, 112 BIB, 1-17 twist 22 1/2 inch barrel, jammed about .015 in.......jackie

Ok,thanks a bunch,i'll start at 28 and work on it.

jackie schmidt
08-25-2008, 08:10 PM
I like to use my 35P chrono when I work with loads. I just adjusted the powder measure untill it hit a flat 2900.......jackie

stdouglas
08-26-2008, 07:09 AM
In watching this development of the 30ppc, it sounds promising, where can I go to find more information on the cartrige as far as specs. etc.. thanks.

jackie schmidt
08-26-2008, 08:28 AM
I suppose you are at the right place to learn about the 30PPC. I doubt you will be seeing much of a write up in Guns and Ammo on this chambering

While I did not invent this animal, (heck, I think EVERYTHING has been tried once), I did put forth the effort to develop a system to make it a viable chambering.

What you start with is a 220 Russian Lapua Case. The first thing you do is neck it up to 30 caliber. You can do this by the conventional method of using stepped mandrels to get the job done, the final being the one that makes it work with your neck turner. You then turn the necks,and fireform.
I simply load a 220 Russian case with a 22 bullet and 27 grns of 133, and shoot it in my standard .269 neck 6PPC barrel. This makes it into a non neck turned 6PPC. I then load the round with a 6mm bullet and a full charge of 133, and shoot it in a 6mm barrel that has a .332 neck in it. (yes, I made all of this). This makes what amounts to a "factory" 30PPC. I then turn the necks so that a loaded round has about .0015 clearance in a .332 neck chamber. This method makes a beautiful case, dead straight. Sounds like alot of trouble, I suppose the more conventional method would suit most shooters.

The reamer is on file at Dave Kiff's Pacific Precision, he and I worked together getting everything right. It features a 1.505 over all length, zero freebore, and a .332 neck, which leaves just a couple of thousanths to turn from the necks.

As of this time, there are no "factory" dies. I made my sizing die, (which does everything in one stroke, neck size, body size, de-cap, and shoulder bump). I simply took a Redding full length 6PPC sizing die, chucked it up dead true, and ran a 21/64 carbide reamer in the neck. Works great.

The seasting die is a Wilsom 30-30 Competition seater that I shortened to the correct length, then ran my chamber reamer in. I did polish a tad out after reaming so the cases will not stick. Makes dead straight rounds.

Most are using a 1-17 twist barrel in conjunction with 110 to 115 grn bullets. As you have read in the other post, we are still in the proccess of establishing the ideal powder, re-read those for that info.

The whole idea in the beginning was to make a round suitable for 100-200 yard score shooting that had enough reduced recoil so as to be comfortable in a 10.5 pound Rifle. This came out as expected. Also,there are multitudes of Rifles with 6PPC bolt faces. To convert the Rifle, you simply screw on a 30PPC Barrel, no case rim turning, no altering of the Rifle.

Accuracy is what you would expect, right on par with a 30BR. It sure isn't going to subplant the 30BR, it simply gives the shooter another option.......jackie

Dick Grosbier
08-26-2008, 09:00 AM
I suppose you are at the right place to learn about the 30PPC. I doubt you will be seeing much of a write up in Guns and Ammo on this chambering.......jackie

Ha Ha
Now that is funny , True but funny.
I am just guessing here but you could probably get Harrels to turn one of their fine 6PPC dies into a 30PPC die for you if you don;t have a lathe yourself.

Dick

333smitty
08-26-2008, 09:04 AM
after shooting Jackie's "famous" 30ppc in our last Tomball VFS Match.
My score the first time out with rifle was a respectable 250-18x
@100 yards. I had a blast shooting this rig.

This 30ppc shoots X's with ease and with manageble recoil w/lite
bullets.

I also like the fact that the barrels last forever as compared to
the high pressure 6's.

Any one that owns a 6ppc can build a 30ppc and use the same
bolt. Its a boone to all that are strapped for $$$$$!!!
One rifle can be used for both group and VFS. Cool:cool:

This fall I will ask Jackie to chamber up a 30ppc with his reamer.
I will place this barrel on my H/V and report back to the forum
and report my progress.

Good shooting to all
Vic

mike southard
08-26-2008, 02:09 PM
When I bought a barrel from Jackie I thought I would have a hard time finding dies until I talked to Jim Carstensen. He fixed me up with a beautiful set of Seating and sizing dies. As close to perfect as you can get. And on top of that his prices are reasonable. You might give him a call. Shop phone: (563) 689-6258, cell: (563) 212-2984. BTW Jackie I was able to get some VV120 and will be trying it Friday.

stdouglas
08-26-2008, 08:43 PM
Jackie,
your input has proven invaluble thanks for the response.
Scott.

Larry M
08-26-2008, 09:05 PM
I doubt you'll get Harrells to make you a 30PPC die I couldn't get them to modify a 30BR die to size the whole neck.

Butch Lambert
08-26-2008, 09:21 PM
Larry,
If you did that would there be any metal for your bushing to sit on?
Butch

Jim Wooten
08-26-2008, 09:40 PM
I doubt you'll get Harrells to make you a 30PPC die I couldn't get them to modify a 30BR die to size the whole neck.

Actually I have been using a 30PPC die that I got from Harrells some time ago when I started working with this caliber. It has been doing a great job.

Jim

Larry M
08-26-2008, 10:45 PM
I don't know. I'm not sure what all might be involved. Jim @JLC said he could most likely do it. My plan for now is to send it to him when shoot season slows down. If he can't I suppose I'll be looking for a die that will. Or I could send my neck die in and have Wilson mod. it for the whole neck and make sizing a 2 part process.

jackie schmidt
08-27-2008, 07:42 AM
As you might have guessed, I do not use a bushing in a die. I essentially use the same type of set-up as I use in my 6PPC........jackie