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schilla
08-18-2008, 01:41 PM
Does anyone have the scoop on RL17? I want to try to reload my 260 rem with RL17 but i cant get my hands on any, alliant must be backed up a bit at the factory.

Has anyone tried it? Worked/didn't work as well???

goodgrouper
08-18-2008, 01:44 PM
I will be testing some in the next few days. We'll see if it really gives the speed they claim.

mturner
08-18-2008, 02:11 PM
I will be testing some in the next few days. We'll see if it really gives the speed they claim.

I can tell you that the RL15 gives very high velocities. Sometimes 100-200 fps faster than other powders with similar burn rates.

Michael

Larry Elliott
08-18-2008, 03:08 PM
German Salazar has a writeup on 6mmBR.com on RL-17 I think.

Kirk Ethridge
08-18-2008, 10:39 PM
they just did stress and velocity testing. .in 6xc they got over 200fps gain with acceptable pressure, if i remember right they were getting low extreme spreads and good standard deviations. (they were not shooting for accuracy at all at the time the report was posted).

I just finished some shooting with 4007 ssc in my 6xc, and got very small groups, it was easy to tune and clean.

thought you might be interested as it is one of the new powders in line with 4350 that might be a good alternative. (I was not chronographing, the accuracy was outstanding nevertheless).

RE the new reloader powder, its made in sweden (i think) the way they describe it, sounds like the vitavouri High Energy Powders. ie same take on manufacture??

Kirk

goodgrouper
08-18-2008, 11:24 PM
I got my RL17 today and it says it is made in Switzerland right on the bottle. It also says it is "for short magnum rifles" on the label.

I agree with Kirk about IMR 4007ssc. I have been using it in 300 wsm's with good results. It's clean and has been giving good accuracy with very low standard deviations. It is the best burn rate stick powder to get near factory velocities with that I have tried. RL17 should give similar densities but is reported to give even higher velocities. We shall see.

Larry Elliott
08-19-2008, 02:39 PM
I got my RL17 today and it says it is made in Switzerland right on the bottle. It also says it is "for short magnum rifles" on the label.

I agree with Kirk about IMR 4007ssc. I have been using it in 300 wsm's with good results. It's clean and has been giving good accuracy with very low standard deviations. It is the best burn rate stick powder to get near factory velocities with that I have tried. RL17 should give similar densities but is reported to give even higher velocities. We shall see.

According to what was on 6mmBR.com RL-17 is made in Switzerland and the deterrent is impregnated into the granules not just added to the exterior. Sounds interesting.

goodgrouper
08-19-2008, 03:27 PM
I have loaded up some 300 wsm's with RL15 and RL17 and some 168 Berger VLD's. The RL17 happens to smell just like N550 to me. It smells nothing like any of the other RL powders.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v358/goodgrouper/canofrl17edited.jpg



In volume, I could get 66 grains of RL17 to fill up the case about the same as 63.5 grains of RL15 despite the kernels of RL17 being 1/3 again as long.:confused: The diameters of the two powders kernels are quite similar.
RL15 on left, RL17 on right:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v358/goodgrouper/rl15andrl17edited.jpg

I used a 6" drop tube to load the cases and the 168 berger vld is loaded to just clear a Rem box magazine by .020 or .030".
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v358/goodgrouper/300wsmwithberger168.jpg

THe last row in this picture is 68.5 grains of RL17 in the 300 wsm case. The Berger bullet can be loaded into this case without the powder causing the bullet to seat inconsistent as long as a 6" drop tube is used. This is quite a bit more powder than I can get in with IMR4350 which is exactly what this case needs in my opinion.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v358/goodgrouper/rl17in300wsmedited.jpg


Velocity and accuracy tests coming tomorrow.

harrison
08-19-2008, 06:39 PM
It will never replace or be as good as VV-133.
Bob

goodgrouper
08-19-2008, 07:06 PM
It will never replace or be as good as VV-133.
Bob

You shoot N133 in a WSM???:eek:;)

harrison
08-19-2008, 08:06 PM
No. Do you shoot a WSM in benchrest matches?
Bob

Charles E
08-19-2008, 08:44 PM
This thread is sort of in the wrong forum. Check

http://www.benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54569

goodgrouper
08-19-2008, 08:56 PM
No. Do you shoot a WSM in benchrest matches?
Bob

If you are referring to this thread being on the "ppc subsection", I agree. But I didn't start it here. I only added to it here just like you did!

Perhaps the forum gods will move it?

rhaney2
08-20-2008, 10:28 AM
I can tell you that the RL15 gives very high velocities. Sometimes 100-200 fps faster than other powders with similar burn rates.

Michael

Mike,i didn't find it that way,i my 6mm dasher with 105 bergers,i got less velocity,in fact,n-540 gave 200 fps better,4350 gave about 80 fps better.
it gave fine accuracy but velocity was lower.

goodgrouper
08-20-2008, 05:12 PM
Ok, the velocity test is in. The verdict: mostly hype but still some things are possible. Why? Read on.

Before I give out the results, I wish to give some background on the test and rifle. All loads are measured out to .1 grain accuracy and dropped from a 6" drop tube. The Winchester 300 WSM cases have all been turned and fully prepped right down to the last detail. Every bullet was measured for seating depth variance by an ogive to base checker and there was not more than .001' variation allowed. All primers were seated by hand. The 168 grain Berger VLD bullets used were measured for bearing surface length before seating and segregated.

The chronograph used was an Oehler 35 on a 4' rod placed 10' from the muzzle to the first skyscreen.

Air temp was 49 degrees with 40 percent humidity (quite humid for Utah but I was only 50 feet from a river). No wind, no mirage. Elevation 5150'

Rifle was a Rem 700 CDL SF with a 24" barrel. A Tubb's Final Finish kit has been fired down the barrel previous to this test.

Powders tried in this barrel are: IMR 4007ssc, IMR4350, RL15, and RL17 all with FED 215GM primers

IMR 4350 never cracked 3000 fps with as much of it as I could get in the case and still seat bullets to fit the short magazine of a REm 700. When using this lot of IMR 4350 in other cartridges, I have found it is a tad slower than average for most IMR 4350 lots I've used.

IMR 4007 data next: All three shot groups

66.0 grains
ES 30
AV 3085
SD 15

66.5 grains
ES 30
AV 3089
SD 15

67.0 grains
ES 26
AV 3114
SD 13

67.5 grains (slight ejector marks)
ES 21
AV 3151
SD 10

Accuracy was under 1 moa with every load of IMR 4007 and some went to 1/2. The deviations were unusually high for this powder as I have used this powder in several other 300 wsm's and never had deviations over 10 fps with them. For whatever reason, this gun didn't like it as well.

RL17 data next since it is the direct comparison with exact same charges of IMR4007

66 grains
ES 30
AV 3009
SD 16

66.5 grains
ES 42
AV 3066
SD 22

67.0 grains
ES 75
AV 3077
SD 42

67.5 grains
ES 26
AV 3128
SD 13

68.0 grains
ES 40
AV 3150
SD 20

68.5 grains (as much as I could get to fit with 6" tube)
ES 36
AV 3177
SD 18 (started to get a sticky bolt lift and small ejector marks on case head)

Accuracy with this powder was worst of the four and the SD's were among the worst IN THIS ONE PARTICULAR BARREL of course!


RL15 data;

62.5 grains
ES 20
AV 3040
SD 10

63.0 grains
ES 21
AV 3074
SD 10

63.5 grains
ES 12
AV 3102
SD 6 (still appears to be mild)

I don't have to use a drop tube to get 63.5 grain of RL15 in the case and accuracy was 2nd best with this powder however it did shoot the smallest group of all at .310" at 100 yards CTC. It yields the best deviations, second best accuracy, and is the easiest to throw. I would bet the next grain of powder increase would give even better accuracy and velocities around 3150 to 3200. More testing is in order with this powder.



OK, so that is how it played out between the powders. In order of burn rate, they would be RL15, IMR 4007 ssc, RL17, and IMR4350 a distant fourth. Grain for grain, IMR 4007 SSC provides more speed than RL17 in this particular gun and this particular cartridge. I must emphasize that this is just one gun and only one gun. Results may differ.

Now I get to the point I mentioned earlier, "mostly hype but some things are still possible". By that I mean several things. One, if you look at the chart that Alliant has put out and 6mmbr.com has posted in their archives, it shows RL17 and the 300 wsm as gaining near the least speed of all the other cartridges when compared to IMR 4350. I believe it was somewhere around 50 fps or something. For the smaller more overbore cartridges, the increase was much more dramatic. So from my test, I would say that I agree. RL17 yeilded at least as much as 50 fps more than IMR 4350 when identical charge weights are used. Perhaps even more. So I have no reason to doubt (or believe) that RL17 will skyrocket a 243 wssm or a 6xc. However, the only reason I could see a serious boost in velocities over what IMR 4350 can offer is simply because I can get more RL17 in the case. SO is it a super powder? I doubt it. But is it quicker than IMR 4350? Yes! Is it faster than IMR 4007ssc? Nope.

This brings me to my second "possibility". Whenever a Tubb's kit is fired through a barrel, I have noticed about a one to two grain velocity decrease (so these above loads should not be duplicated if fiiring down an UNTUBBED bore). SInce I could not get more than 68.5 grains in the case without it effecting the seating depth, I stopped there. In a non tubbed gun, the pressure I experienced at 68.5 may be closer to 66.5 grains. So if you loaded more than 66.5 grains in that non-tubbed gun, you might see a big velocity increase. Some powders kind of "ho-hum" along until they get near max and then you see huge pressure increases. RL17 could be one of those powders, I don't know. One thing I do know, I have not given up on it yet. I will try it in a 243 wssm and a dirty ought six next week and see if they can give me the famed 200 fps increase!

schilla
08-20-2008, 08:48 PM
Excellent goodgrouper, Thanks for all the info that kinda of data can only be found here on these forums. Thanks again you have been very helpful.

So for my 260 maybe i should pick up some IMR 4007ssc and some RL 15??? I have the RL17 on order but that won't be here for some time.

Im going to do some research on "Tubb's Final Finish kit" i don't know what thats all about, any info on that would be great.

thanks again.

goodgrouper
08-20-2008, 11:48 PM
Excellent goodgrouper, Thanks for all the info that kinda of data can only be found here on these forums. Thanks again you have been very helpful.

So for my 260 maybe i should pick up some IMR 4007ssc and some RL 15??? I have the RL17 on order but that won't be here for some time.

Im going to do some research on "Tubb's Final Finish kit" i don't know what thats all about, any info on that would be great.

thanks again.

You are welcome. I'm always eager to help out even if it upsets a few crotchety old men because it's sorta in the wrong subsection. SOmetimes this forum has great info and people willing to help and other times it's like an old ladies bridge club!

As for the powders, I would try all three you mentioned. They all have great possibilities.

A Tubb's kit is just different gritted bullets fired in sequence at reduced velocities to smoothen out factory barrels or worn custom barrels. They sell for around $30 in these parts and can be had in just about every caliber. They are NOTHING like the NECO kit that first gave firelapping such a bad reputation. I have used them in every factory barrel since '04 and have even revived several of my custom barrels (6.5-284, 22-250AI) back to near top form. However, they reduce pressure enough that the powder charge must be bumped up to get the same velocities back.

-Yo-
08-21-2008, 01:23 AM
Re the 6mmBR.com tests, which I edited -- As with all powders, RL17 will work well with some cartridges, not so great with others. It seems to fill a need in cartridges that are running out of capacity with powder like H4350 and H4831. However, initial tests with 6mm Dasher cases suggest that RL17, while usable, is probably too "slow". On the other hand, with a case like the .284 Winchester, as confirmed by Tierney, it does yield 150 fps more velocity, and most importantly, gets you up to the 2920-2970 fps window that guys have been looking for with the 180 VLDs.

Will it work in your case?--a good predictor is if H4350 or H4831sc works well but you've run out of capacity.

In a much bigger case, if you're not bumping up against case capacity limitations, RL17 might not offer much of an advantage, but in something like a 6XC it does seem to do what other powders can't.

As for the SD/ES, we're starting to see a pattern that the numbers run pretty high, then close up nicely, then expand again. It's a bit hard to judge because the initial tests were done by Salazar with pretty big jumps between loads. It may be that RL17 has a smaller sweet spot than some other powders. Also there are very few powders than can consistently beat the ES/SD of H4350 in my experience.

RL17 may smell like N550, BTW, but it is not made by the same company. It is produced by Nitro-Chemie in Switzerland.