PDA

View Full Version : Another Class Project



Apollo
08-15-2008, 05:37 PM
School year is going to start soon. Each year, I try to do a class project revolving around shooting. I am not allowed to actually go out and shoot during the school day with the class, but can on weekends or after school with parental approval, etc, then bring that data back to the class to use.

I am trying to think of topics. 2 years ago - we came up with a spreadsheet that estimates the load density based on powder type, bullet configuration, bullet depth, case capacity, etc. Last year, we did another spreadsheet examining patterns in 100 yd score shooting. This year I was thinking about doing something with wind flags. Need to get outside.

I was under the assumption that all wind flags, used by the same shooter, had to be the same(material, size, double vs single, etc), in order for them to behave the same. I shoot over Hood flags and assumed I would have to buy only Hood flags from now on. A friend of mine shot in a match and noticed several people had different sized flags and asked them if that mattered and they all said "no". Physically, that doesn't make sense to me. I would think that a smaller vane would show more "turnage"(that is a great scientific word)than a bigger vane. I thought this might be a good project for this year's physics class.

I do have access to a wind meter and can go to the range(private) any time. It seems pretty straight forward, but any comments, suggestions, things to look out for, or other topics would be appreciated. Thanks for your time.

Stanley

MColeman
08-16-2008, 10:43 AM
Stanley,
I used to think that a lighter flag was a better flag but have since learned that a balanced flag (some prefer a slightly, and I mean 'slightly' )tail heavy flag is better. I learned this when I happened to examine Don Nielson's flags closely one time at the Super Shoot. His flags are heavy but respond well to wind changes.

Now, please allow me to point out a grammatical error in your post. I notice these things and I get to be somewhat like Adrian Monk (anal) at times. You mentioned that you were going to try and do something. This is obviously incorrect. Instead it should be try to do something. It's not nagging but it is a vital part of an education.

The incorrect usage of words is rampant today and everybody always gets their panties in a wad when their errors are pointed out to them. Correct usage of words is vital to coherent communication and if you get a job in an industry that requires great precision it will be even more critical to your success. Good luck in your endeavor.

Warmest regards,
Mickey (AKA 'The Anal Old Geezer'.......among other things)

(Upon proof reading my post I've had to correct two errors of my own so we all struggle with this)

jackie schmidt
08-16-2008, 11:17 AM
It would sure be great if you could set a really nice Rail Gun on a bench and, in conjunction with a good set of flags, demonstrate how the subtle changes in the winds velocity and direction move the bullets around.

But, I know this would not be something you could do in todays education inviroment. Perhaps setting a nice video camer up, and recording shots in different conditions, then showing the video in the class room would be the next best thing. Do you happen to know anybody with a good Rail Gun. If not, a good Bag Gun will do, but you know why I would prefer a Rail.

As for flags, I am very "anal" about them. I want them set a certain way, where I can see each over the other, and at an idea height.

My flags are not light, but are mounted on 1/4 inch ball bearings, which does make them quite sensitive. The are weighted to where they are a tad heavy toward the back. They are progressivly larger as they go down range so they all look the same.

Gene Beggs has done some great work on exactly how the wind acts upon bullets in flight. He developed the 'crosswind component" chart that shows how different velocities and angles will affect bullets. For an example, a 10 mph wind at a 20 degree angle might not move the bullet as much as a 5 mph at an angle closer to 90 degrees accross. Then there is the way bullets are affected in the verticle when shooting in different wind directions.

If Gene does not see this post on this Forum, put it on the Centerfire Forum. It is good to see a young person showing so much interest in extreme accuracy shooting

crb
08-16-2008, 12:09 PM
None of my flags are the same size but it was more happenstance than planning. Having the closer flags be smaller than the farther flags makes a lot of sense.

I DO believe that light weight is important. I also believe in ball bearings at the props and at the pivot. I use 14 or 15" electric RC airplane props [ designed with proper respect to aerodynamic principles instead of garden aesthetics :rolleyes: ].

In our club there are 3 types of flags-

1-Commercial ones that the owner has modded to incorporate ball bearings at the pivot and daisy;

2-std commercial;

3- my balsa wood, RC plane hardware homemade ones [ sitting on music stands :p ].

My flags will do a complete circle in light condition changes while a std commercial flag will be totally stationary. The modded commercial ones do pretty well.

Bill Wynne
08-16-2008, 12:37 PM
Stanley,

Doug Weeter is a good source for wind information and wind flag information. Check out his site on the subject. On this site he goes by Doug.

http://www.thewindisnotyourfriend.com/

This guy is a retired pilot and he has literally danced with the wind for years. He is a good guy and a good source.:)

Concho Bill

Apollo
08-19-2008, 10:06 AM
Thanks for the information. I will get in-touch with the people you recommended. We will break this project down into several areas including; sensitivity, repeatability, and size.

Jackie - you wrote "flags get bigger as you move down the line so they all look the same size" Obviously, what you do works - but don't the bigger ones behave differently than the smaller ones? That topic is going to be the main part of our study.

I also approached our calculus teacher about what Mr. Beggs has done. He is going to look into it and see if he can incorporate that into his curriculum sometime during the year.

Thanks for all the advice - I'll let you know how it turns out.

Stanley

Bill Wynne
08-20-2008, 07:55 PM
Jackie - you wrote "flags get bigger as you move down the line so they all look the same size" Obviously, what you do works - but don't the bigger ones behave differently than the smaller ones?
Thanks for all the advice - I'll let you know how it turns out.

Stanley

You and your students should try different flags as close together as you can put them with out them getting in each other's way.

Another project that you might want to try another year is a "ballistic pendulum". It can be done and it is quite accurate. For the information of shooters who have not ever heard of one it is what was used in early times to determine velocity.

It works on Newton's laws of motion. (The velocity of the pendulum X it's velocity = the velocity of the bullet X it's weight)

I will be glad to tell you about the one I made in my college years but it is too long to explain here.:)

Concho Bill

HovisKM
08-21-2008, 07:40 AM
I have some food for thought and would like to hear opinions about it. I am by no means the caliber of shooter that many on this board are but have shot over flags of many types for 12 yrs.

What has happened to me is....I have went full circle. I started with Smiley flags. As anyone who has used them know they are built tough and fairly heavy. Also, I will dare to say that more of them are used by top shooters at big competitions than any other flag (IE: Supershoot, Nationals, etc).

Now, after using these flags for a year....I thought...heck, I can make a better, lighter and more reactive flag. Over the Eleven years, I have done just that..BUT...when I look back over my aggs, they just arent any better. So this year, the smiley flags came back out. I remove the little ball bearings that I let them ride on and just used them on the pin. Guess what...my aggs have decreased. Now...I don't shoot as many tiny groups as I used to but the aggs have dropped.

Why is this??? I for one think that by having more (to) sensitive flags, I was not pulling the trigger in a condition change (because the sensitive flags were moving around more) that really didn't make any difference to the group size. With the more sensitive flags, my brain was having to process more information, causing more mental stress, and trying to shoot in exactly the same condition to shoot the smallest group I could. This was causing more mental fatigue as the day went on and was also finding myself sometimes having to rush groups toward the end of relay because I was waiting for the same condition to come back. Have I made any sense???

For me....having a flag that moves when a condition change comes that can actually make a difference in the group is more important that having a flag that is showing you everything that is going on. Now, I watch the flag for significant changes and the tails for the rest. I also find that I am not as tired as the day goes on and am less likely to make a flag mistake, gun handling mistake, bench set-up mistake, etc....

I could go into more detail but I'm already confusing myself..:D:D

Am I full of it or does it make sense. I'm shooting a lot smaller aggs...but less screamers.

Hovis

speedpro
08-21-2008, 09:09 AM
I have some food for thought and would like to hear opinions about it. I am by no means the caliber of shooter that many on this board are but have shot over flags of many types for 12 yrs.

What has happened to me is....I have went full circle. I started with Smiley flags. As anyone who has used them know they are built tough and fairly heavy. Also, I will dare to say that more of them are used by top shooters at big competitions than any other flag (IE: Supershoot, Nationals, etc).

Now, after using these flags for a year....I thought...heck, I can make a better, lighter and more reactive flag. Over the Eleven years, I have done just that..BUT...when I look back over my aggs, they just arent any better. So this year, the smiley flags came back out. I remove the little ball bearings that I let them ride on and just used them on the pin. Guess what...my aggs have decreased. Now...I don't shoot as many tiny groups as I used to but the aggs have dropped.

Why is this??? I for one think that by having more (to) sensitive flags, I was not pulling the trigger in a condition change (because the sensitive flags were moving around more) that really didn't make any difference to the group size. With the more sensitive flags, my brain was having to process more information, causing more mental stress, and trying to shoot in exactly the same condition to shoot the smallest group I could. This was causing more mental fatigue as the day went on and was also finding myself sometimes having to rush groups toward the end of relay because I was waiting for the same condition to come back. Have I made any sense???

For me....having a flag that moves when a condition change comes that can actually make a difference in the group is more important that having a flag that is showing you everything that is going on. Now, I watch the flag for significant changes and the tails for the rest. I also find that I am not as tired as the day goes on and am less likely to make a flag mistake, gun handling mistake, bench set-up mistake, etc....

I could go into more detail but I'm already confusing myself..:D:D

Am I full of it or does it make sense. I'm shooting a lot smaller aggs...but less screamers.

Hovis

makes all the sense to me. I have different styles of flags one of each I keep in my back yard year round for observation, I recently put out the older heavier larger flag that I use to use 20 yrs. ago and discovered they show "significant" conditions that actually affect groups as opposed to all the small stuff that causes mental stress yet has little if any impact on your shot. I also think as we get older we get wiser and look for less confusion in exchange for more positive results in a simple form.