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Mr. D
08-14-2008, 11:08 PM
Best over the counter handgun loads?

I've always reloaded for all my firearms my whole life, but the issue has come up about being sued for hand loads when shooting a criminal.

(1.) What are your recommendations for a good man stopper over the counter soft or hollow point load for a S&W Chief Special that will have maximum expansion and energy without hurting the alloy frame?

(2.) Good load with a soft or hollow point for a Sig Sauer 226 9mm!

tylerw02
08-15-2008, 11:09 AM
What? What is the justification of this and where did one get successfully sued by a criminal? Can you cite a case?

Cheechako
08-15-2008, 11:36 AM
Mr D

Several manufacturers now make special "personal defense" handgun ammunition. That's what I use. You can buy it in 20-round boxes so it's economical to get fresh stuff every year or so. I use CBC (Magtech) but I think they are all of equal quality.

I have 3 of the S&W 2" guns that I use and I don't worry about the +P stuff harming them. After all, you are only going to shoot 2 rounds, one in the middle of the chest and the second one between the eyes. :cool:

Practice with regular 38 Special.

Tyler

Don't get all shook up. There may or may not be any specific cases to cite, but there are instances where an issue was made of the ammunition being used. Is it worth taking a chance?? Several years ago my own brother-in-law had to shoot a guy who was trying to rob his business and when the cops questioned him they asked that question. Nothing came of it but there was always the doubt. He used Hornady factory ammo BTW.

Ray

Larry Elliott
08-15-2008, 12:21 PM
Some guy fell down the basement stairs in a house he'd broken into with the intention of robbing, was injured, sued the homeowners because they had no light or the the guy couldn't find the switch. The housebreaker won in this one, so I wouldn't doubt that some guy who got shot and wounded by a homeowner could/would sue and possibly win. If he's killed his survivors might also sue for whatever.

In Montana there's a law that says that someone injured in the commission of a crime can't sue, but it hasn't been tested and I'm sure the trial lawyers will squeal like little girls if they can't sue some nasty homeowner for having the nerve to shoot a housebreaker. They did when the law was passed, but haven't had a case yet to see if it's constitutional.

BTW, I use handloads, and devil take the hindmost.

speedpro
08-15-2008, 12:24 PM
Hornady makes some pretty good bullet's most whitetail's I killed were shot once with their "Interlock" bullet and their "xtp" for handgun's work well too. IMO

Cheechako
08-15-2008, 12:38 PM
Larry

Some states have very good laws on the books protecting individuals from lawsuits filed by yahoos or their surviving families. Arizona recently passed the "Castle Doctrine" and it sounds like Montana has something similar.

But, not all states are AZ or MT. Maybe some day they will be but for now it's wise to CYA when it comes to shooting people.;)

Ray

kansasvet
08-15-2008, 12:54 PM
A lawyer does not need justification to sue for wrongful death, only greed.
Even if the legal shooting is justified, if the family of the "victim" sues it will cost the shooter a lot of money to defend himself.
I heard of a case where the shooter sued the family for raising such a worthless bum and putting him through the mental anguish of killing the bum in self defense. Last I heard the victims family couldn't pay to defend themselves so had not filed a wrongful death action if the shooter wouldn't pursue the action against the family.

We'll see how that plays out in the future.

tylerw02
08-15-2008, 01:21 PM
The 'myth' of being sued for handloaded ammo rather than factory ammo has been around for years. I've looked for a specific case of damages for using handloaded ammo for self-defense over and over again without a specific case turning up. Ammo is ammo. Handloaded ammo is legal, and legal for self-defense. You can get sued for whatever a dirty lawyer wants, doesn't matter if its legal or not. Hell, they could sue you under that logic, because you did your own trigger job.

Cheechako
08-15-2008, 02:17 PM
Tyler

The Poor-House is full of people who have been sued and won. I'm as macho as the next guy and believe we should stand up to the shyster lawyers, wimpy judges, and liberal juries, but why do it over a $20 box of ammunition? Having to shoot somebody is traumatic enough as it is without adding one more uncertainty.

JMHO

Ray

tylerw02
08-15-2008, 02:51 PM
Because that is a BS rumor that holds no water, I'm going to use my handloads. I've had enough bad experience with factory-produced ammo that I'm only going to use factory match ammo or rimfire. The factory ammo is a major uncertainty ot me.

If you shoot somebody and the only reason you're going to get sued is maybe (but no evidence of such exists) that you handloaded your ammo, you're sitting pretty good. Until somebody shows me a Missouri law or a provision to our castle-doctrine that suggest handloaded ammo is illegal for self-defense, I'll continue to do so. My best guess is that its just another one of those rumors put out by Olin or somebody to help sell ammo.

Cheechako
08-15-2008, 03:27 PM
Because that is a BS rumor that holds no water, I'm going to use my handloads. I've had enough bad experience with factory-produced ammo that I'm only going to use factory match ammo or rimfire. The factory ammo is a major uncertainty ot me.

We're going kinda off on a tangent here. (How ironic is that? Mr D asks a question about shooting and WE go off in another direction. :cool:

Tyler, you are doing exactly what you are accusing us of doing. What bad experiences have you had with factory ammo? I've been shooting a lot of years and handloading for most of them. My experience is just the opposite. I used to carry nothing but my own defensive handloads but I switched to good fresh factory stuff in recent years. Especially after taking the CCW course and getting my card.

And I'm sure the marketing guys at Olin sit around all day trying to figure out how to get me to buy a $20 box of ammo.:rolleyes:

Ray

B. Harvey
08-15-2008, 03:56 PM
Some guy fell down the basement stairs in a house he'd broken into with the intention of robbing, was injured, sued the homeowners because they had no light or the the guy couldn't find the switch. The housebreaker won in this one, so I wouldn't doubt that some guy who got shot and wounded by a homeowner could/would sue and possibly win. If he's killed his survivors might also sue for whatever.

In Montana there's a law that says that someone injured in the commission of a crime can't sue, but it hasn't been tested and I'm sure the trial lawyers will squeal like little girls if they can't sue some nasty homeowner for having the nerve to shoot a housebreaker. They did when the law was passed, but haven't had a case yet to see if it's constitutional.

BTW, I use handloads, and devil take the hindmost.


Someone should have added insult to injury, with some lead!

Mr. D
08-15-2008, 04:57 PM
I agree with all that was said, but I would feel better shooting an intruder with a good, strong factory load and a registered handgun in today's world. One less area to be criticized on. I've had policeman seem completely shocked that I have a handgun that is "actually loaded" in a travel trailer, so that's the way it is. An unloaded handgun is of less use than a large crescent wrench when defending yourself.

Thanx for any ammo recommendations.

Roger T
08-15-2008, 06:10 PM
Best over the counter handgun loads?

I've always reloaded for all my firearms my whole life, but the issue has come up about being sued for hand loads when shooting a criminal.

(1.) What are your recommendations for a good man stopper over the counter soft or hollow point load for a S&W Chief Special that will have maximum expansion and energy without hurting the alloy frame?

(2.) Good load with a soft or hollow point for a Sig Sauer 226 9mm!

Hornady TAP, Corbon, Win.SXTs all shoot well in my 226s,it's a tossup on the best, all Very Accurate in the 125-147gr.weights

Zebra13
08-15-2008, 11:49 PM
Gentlemen,

Since Mr. D's question undoubtedly stems from a comment I made in another post, I will weigh in.

I posted that one should not carry handloads in a self defense gun, because when the civil attorney finds out about it, he's going to make you look bad...real bad. And I stand by my statement.

Tyler...I understand your point. There is absolutely nothing illegal or wrong about carrying handloads in a self defense gun. And I to doubt that anybody has been sued for using a handload to shoot someone. And there's no case law, or case on point. But people do get sued for shooting people...along with getting sued for everything else (too hot of coffee, he winked at me, he was mean to me in grade school, add nauseam). And if you shoot someone with a handload, chance are pretty good that you may get sued, and if the circumstances are suspect, you may get prosecuted. WHEN the attorney, whether it be a civil or a district attorney, find out, they are going to beat you over the head with it. The civil attorney especially. You will probably be portrayed as a gun toting, right wing, extremist who undoubtedley hates minorities and gays, kills defenseless animals for fun, who wasn't satisfied with regular ol' store bought bullets, because they wouldn't kill people dead enough, and had to go out to his garage and make his own super wiz-bang people killer bullets. They will paint a bad picture. Why give them the oppurtunity? There are a lot of attorneys out there who give not one wit about you, what is right, and what is wrong. They will do what they have to do, say what they have to say to win...and then get paid. They are without morals. You could be in the right legally 6 ways to next Tuesday, but if the jury gets the wrong PERCEPTION of you, you could have a problem. And jurors...wow! I don't mean to offend anybody, but an attorney told me once that a jury is made up of people who were too stupid to get out of jury duty. And I have seen them do some crazy things. So that can be a crap shoot.

I've spent my adult life dealing with attorneys while working in law enforcement. And I've spent a bit of time testifying. They can make you look very bad, and make you real uncomfortable over the smallest little things. It's not fun, and can get real lonely up there.

I'm not saying it's right...but it is the way it is.

Justin

cntryboy1289
08-16-2008, 01:33 AM
Mr.D, I carry my 40 S&W loaded with the Gold Dots behind two of the frangible loads.

I have seen a case where the guy was sued for shooting a guy with handloads. The lawyer told the court that he specially loaded the rounds with the intent to kill anyone he shot.......lol, I always thought that was the way you do it myself, but anyway, the lawyer lost his case but the guy had to hire a lawyer and ended up filing for bankruptcy because of it.

Like what was said, a $20 box of ammo could have saved the guy some money in this case.

chillippr
08-16-2008, 08:13 AM
You might want to take a look at concealedcarryforum.com. They've done a lot of testing on handgun ammunition.

MikeSmith
08-16-2008, 09:28 AM
I like Gold Dot, in a 9mm I would choose 124gr +P

Mr. D
08-16-2008, 01:28 PM
Thanx all for the ammo recommendations!

I suppose a lot of non shooters particularly could be convinced there is a difference between defending yourself and trying to kill someone who is or has committing a crime and in some cases they could have a point. My personal view is that I would never shoot a person for a property theft, but would drop anyone in a second for threatening my family. My property isn't worth a life, but my family is. Maybe that is the distinction an attorney will use against you in a court that brings hand loads into the situation. When I was young and dumb (as opposed to old and dumb) I did a few light weight kid things that would have allowed me to be shot by some, but I didn't turn out to be a hardened criminal, just a moderate liberal! :D I hope the statutes of limitations from the 50's are all expired Justin! :D

Louis Boyd
08-16-2008, 08:30 PM
Have there been reputable studies on whether, when you shoot a criminal, you're more likely to get sued depending on whether they survive or if they are killed? That might help in determining what to carry and on shot placement. It seems to me that you'd make a better impresseion on a jury if the person you shoot is dead with just a small (1/2" or less) entry wound over the heart than if he's in a wheel chair with half his face blown off and explaning how you ruined his life just bacause he asked you to give him your wallet.

Larry Elliott
08-16-2008, 08:39 PM
But if you kill the nice guy who was robbing you it's possible that his wife and maybe kids or mother and cousins and whoever else could show up in court all tears and bawling about how you done killed poor little Rodney who was the sole support of his family. The fact that this support involved stealing and other crimes is of no concern to the sleazeball lawyer who is trying to sue you into the poor house to enrich him/herself.

Louis Boyd
08-16-2008, 09:23 PM
My personal view is that I would never shoot a person for a property theft, but would drop anyone in a second for threatening my family.

There are a lot of people who don't share your generous attitude. If I were to catch you in my house with my computer or silverware in your hands (and I'm not saying that would ever happen) I wouild shoot to stop you. If you die thats unfortunate...for you. Your life woudn't be worth any more to me if you had chosen to break into my home and take my property than the life of a mouse I catch chewing holes in my clothing. It's not threating my life or that of my family, it's just vermin. Actually your life would be worth less to me because the mouse isn't in a position to understand the morality of what it's doing. The trouble is if everyone shared your attitude human verim would be making unarmed burglaries constantly with no fear. In some places it is that way. I don't want to live in a society like that.

Laws vary with location. I'm not advocating breaking the law to kill criminals, but I'm not advocation protecting criminals because of the "value of life" either. If you have operable cancer it's better to remove the cancerous tissue than to allow it to grow just because its alive.

Louis Boyd
08-16-2008, 09:39 PM
The fact that this support involved stealing and other crimes is of no concern to the sleazeball lawyer who is trying to sue you into the poor house to enrich him/herself.

Unfortunately they have the precident of what the government does to provide "welfare" though taxation backed up by guns if you resist being incarcerated for non payment.
We're worse off now than in the 1920s with Al Capone running Chicago. He didn't take nearly as big of percentage as the IRS nor did he insult the people by pretending they'd voted for him to do it.

speedpro
08-17-2008, 01:06 AM
handgun loads are the ones fired into a "specific target" from an unknown point of origin ! ........ ;)

Mr. D
08-17-2008, 03:07 AM
You'll note that I didn't say I would shake my finger at a robber and ask him to go home and pray about it! I would make a citizen's arrest if possible, but I'm not going to shoot a 15 year old kid I catch stealing my stereo just because he is in my house. My stereo isn't worth his life, and contrary to popular opinion some people do change if they are allowed to live through a very, bad decision. Then again, if he threatens me or my family in any way he's a statistic. I guess we all have a right to our own values and morals.