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View Full Version : What shooting discipline is the truest test of marksmanship?



Dennis Sorensen
08-13-2008, 08:05 AM
Just like the title states...

What shooting discipline is the truest test of marksmanship? Please state your reasoning or thoughts...:)

chillippr
08-13-2008, 08:42 AM
If marksmanship is outright ability to hold minimum MOA with followthrough, I'd say Olympic 10M Air Rifle & Air Pistol. No wind involved though!!

david dumas
08-13-2008, 08:59 AM
if marksmanship is outright ability to hold minimum moa with followthrough, i'd say olympic 10m air rifle & air pistol. No wind involved though!!

but,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, the wind is my friend,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

CYanchycki
08-13-2008, 09:30 AM
feeling on this subject is that ALL shooting disciplines have that capability of being one of "truest form of marksmanship"

The disciplines are diverse as is the equipment for whatever you chose to shoot.

In closing, the "truest form of markmanship" I feel, is the person who can go from discipline to discipline and shoot each and every equally well. Be it shotgun(trap/sporting clays), pistol(IPSC/bullseye), rimfire(group/score @ 25-200 yards), centerfire(shortrange/longrange), and a tactical side of running through a obstacle course and firing at various targets.

That person can TRUELY be called a marksman. It would show that he/she is not limited in what they could achieve.

JMO

Calvin

CYanchycki
08-13-2008, 09:32 AM
to mention air rifle.

You put all those together and you have the makings of a new reality show,

The True Marksman Season 1. :)

Calvin

Paul Fielder
08-13-2008, 09:44 AM
....w/ either a pistol or rifle gets my respect. I'm horrible at this.

The top sporting clay shooters are amazing as well. Two different types but felt both should be represented.

pf

<><

Bill Wynne
08-13-2008, 10:25 AM
I read somewhere a long time ago that a good marksman is someone who can hit a target of unknown size at an unknown distance in any condition. I have never heard it said any better.

I shoot 22 silhouette as well as 50/50. Both test the skill of the shooter.

Hitting a running Jack Rabbit, in and out of bushes with a deer rifle, requires a great deal of native skill.:)

What is your thinking, Dennis?

Concho Bill

chino69
08-13-2008, 10:43 AM
In my opinion, the truest test of marksmanship is offhand shooting. You have to time your breathing, lock the rifle in, sight your target, and when everything comes together take your shot. Many elements come into play and it really comes down to the shooter. Shooting from a bench or rest and standing are worlds apart.
Chino69

ScottD
08-13-2008, 10:52 AM
Any shooting discipline most likely started with two guys see who was a better marksman with whatever equipment.

Saturday - the kids (4) and I were on the back porch with a BB gun. As you can imagine it didn't take long to become a contest. I let the two little ones rest on the porch rail, but the two older ones had to shoot free hand. Target was a Vienna sausage can at about 30 feet. They all hit it. So the logical thing to do was move out to 50 feet. It took more shots, but, all but one hit it. Actually my youngest girl took about 10 more shots after dinner to finally hit too.

I must say I was impressed that the two older girls could shoot offhand and hit that small a target with a $20 BB gun.

So I reason, that some of the long range shooting sports are probably the ultimate marksman (or markswoman as my daughter tells me) test. Of course "long-range" is relative to equipment.

Then again ask my kids the same question......who ever could hit the Vienna sausage can off the back fence post.

Wilbur
08-13-2008, 11:06 AM
I don't have an answer but I always thought high power was the true test until a nationally touted high power guy came to a rimfire group match. I still believe high power is tough but now know it's like any other game.

I did see a guy throw a knife, draw his pistol, and shoot a bullet hole for the knife to stick in....

crb
08-13-2008, 11:16 AM
Self defense. Anything else is just a game.

Paul Fielder
08-13-2008, 11:23 AM
Self defense. Anything else is just a game.

...I never run across that one!!

pf

<><

Del Martin
08-13-2008, 11:32 AM
If you have a badge that says “Distinguished Marksman” then you have passed the truest test of a marksman in my book. The gentleman that I know who have one don’t brag much about how they got it but if you can get them to tell you what they had to do to earn it there is usually a good story. I think Bob Lee Swagger has one.

Paul Fielder
08-13-2008, 12:24 PM
I,m with Del Martin on this one. I dont know if you can call military sniping a shooting discipline,but When I think of marksmanship,I think of Marine Snipers. The Name Carlos Hathcock and others comes to mind. These men could hit live targets at long distances under stressful situations.



Glenn

...of his Book. Good Read!! The shooting does not impress me near as much as the the patience and stealth to get into range. He tells a story of having to soil himself to not give away his position!!?? Taking two days to crawl just a few hundred yards in an open field, taking the shot and running back to cover!!

Truly amazing!!

pf

<><

gunmaker
08-13-2008, 01:17 PM
Offhand running coyotes.
The adrenalin rush hits you so quick makes it's so hard to just squeeze the trigger.

Dennis Sorensen
08-13-2008, 01:36 PM
I read somewhere a long time ago that a good marksman is someone who can hit a target of unknown size at an unknown distance in any condition. I have never heard it said any better.

I shoot 22 silhouette as well as 50/50. Both test the skill of the shooter.

Hitting a running Jack Rabbit, in and out of bushes with a deer rifle, requires a great deal of native skill.:)

What is your thinking, Dennis?

Concho Bill

My question really can't be answered with one answer... It is a bit like comparing apples and oranges.. they are different...

The best off hand shooter is really no more of a marksman than the best Benchrest shooter... they both excel at what they do.

I like what you said, "a good marksman is someone who can hit a target of unknown size at an unknown distance in any condition."

That is hard to beat...

... and I don't think I have ever enjoying any shooting as much as coyote hunting in Alberta...

speedpro
08-13-2008, 02:08 PM
I've alway's viewed "high power" riflemen as true marksman, but I've come to respect the diciplines required for trap & skeet, action pistol, IPSC,sillouette and Bulls Eye, catagory's where no artificial rest is allowed.
What the hay, a good shot is what it is, no matter how it's made, some just may be better than others but good shot's none the less !

John Kielly
08-13-2008, 02:37 PM
The way I see it, marksmanship occurs when somebody excels at the achievable. At the extreme, that rules out finally hitting a gong at a mile or other similar accidents or coincidences. Marksmanship occurs when the grouping, be it 5 shots, fifty or 500, is according to the normal distribution bell curve & not a random or a shotgun pattern.

Marksmanship occurs whe I see it & say wow!

Zebra13
08-13-2008, 08:25 PM
"The bench proves the rifle, offhand proves the man".

Harry Pope (I think!)

Justin

Paul Fielder
08-13-2008, 09:47 PM
"The bench proves the rifle, offhand proves the man".

....great quote!! I think that sums it up for me.

However, I used to be the only guy at the range with flags and a true bench gun. I would let the 'know it alls' shoot groups. Some shot bug holes...some shot patterns.

Off hand....just magnifies this by 1,000!!

pf
<><

CYanchycki
08-13-2008, 09:58 PM
"The bench proves the rifle, offhand proves the man".



sure about that... You still had better be able to read the wind off of the bench as well as shooting off hand.

Yes you must prove your equipment off of the bench to know thst is shooting to its full potential offhand.

Carp
08-13-2008, 10:16 PM
Any sport that ALL shooters compete in the wind. Many can shoot without it few can shoot with it. The wind is a true dividing line amongst marksmen. High Power (NRA Camp Perry stuff) may be the best. But rimfire or centerfire could be just as good if shooters didn't avoid the wind. Seems too many don't show up to ranges that are notoriously high in wind velocity and excellent ranges on bad days.JMHO!

Carp

tillroot1
08-13-2008, 11:19 PM
My question really can't be answered with one answer... It is a bit like comparing apples and oranges.. they are different...

The best off hand shooter is really no more of a marksman than the best Benchrest shooter... they both excel at what they do.

I like what you said, "a good marksman is someone who can hit a target of unknown size at an unknown distance in any condition."

That is hard to beat...

... and I don't think I have ever enjoying any shooting as much as coyote hunting in Alberta...

Dennis, I think that either high power or off hand does require alot more than BR as far as skill, you do not rely on any mechanics short of a sling or your muscles for results, the term marksman may be generic but the skill involved would fall to off hand or high power in my opinion. Great post!
Ron Tilley

Mr. D
08-14-2008, 12:57 AM
Don't forget the marksmanship it takes not to fire a weapon when it is not safe to do so; to let the shot go in the interest of safety!

brad541thb
08-14-2008, 02:00 AM
I'm glad you ask. I have the utmost respect for any discipline pertaining to shooting. I've always said all shooting is good as long as it promotes the shooting sports or guns in general. But I honestly believe these guys here are what shooting dreams are made of. It takes years upon years of practice to get this good for most shooters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofcnDLA3pFE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7IE_dXoicA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrIMPYRN5-w&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXfh_PAT8Lk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5uHt4AwYb4

MilGunsmith
08-14-2008, 06:55 AM
How about International 300 meter 3 position? Or International Long Range muzzleloading?

W. owens
08-14-2008, 07:14 AM
I don't know if there is a good answer on this one. It's very hard to say what (if any) discipline is THE ultimate test of marksmanship.

Each has it's own standards by which marksmanship in that discipline is judged to be evident. BR for example: at 100Y, a group less than .1 is good, where a .3 or .4 is not (my category). Other disciplines I am not familiar enough with to say whats good or bad, but you get the idea. I have heard of some that say an Appleseed shoot is a good test of marksmanship.

As Bill Wynne said, being able to hit any target at any range in any condition is definitely a test, but I don't know if it's the test or the only test.

As I said...hard question to answer.

cntryboy1289
08-14-2008, 03:41 PM
Not sure which is the best test myself, but if you shoot 10 meter air rifle outdoors in the spring like my 4H kids do and the ten ring is the size of a period, you find out real quick just how good you are.

You have it all in this sport, wind to blow off a shot, small bullseye, three position shooting, and the sky is the limit on what tackle you want to use.

I take my kids from the bench into 3 position shooting and most want to give up very quickly when they realize they have to learn how to get their bodies into position so they don't wobble all over the place.

Is it harder than benchrest shooting, who's to say but there is a lot more involved in shooting accurately when you have to worry about body positioning as well as the sights as well as the wind.

I dare venture to say that a lot of folks can't shoot well while doing three position fire.

Bill Wynne
08-14-2008, 05:08 PM
About this true test of a marksman.

I have been shooting 50/50 for 2 or 3 years. My rifle will shoot 250 quite often in my warehouse. I have yet to shoot a 250 outdoors in practice or in a match. Reading the wind and reacting to it is the real test. I have shot a 249 and I will shoot a 250 someday. Perfection in benchrest 22 has to be as much of a test as shooting a perfect score in some offhand contest. Ask any benchrest shooter.

Concho Bill

LRCampos
08-14-2008, 05:20 PM
My opinion is that it is the 300 meters ISSF Rifle Standard matches: 20 shots at prone, 20 at kneeling and 20 standing.
You have to deal with wind and the fatigue of 60 highpower centerfire shots at about 330 yards at a X of aprox. 2 inches...

beemanbeme
08-14-2008, 07:45 PM
While hitting someone at long distance may be stressful, hitting them at 6 feet or less can be more stressful. ;)

Jump shooting jack rabbits and cottontails with .22's is a lot of fun. And can sure sharpen up your eye for deer season.

Bill Wynne
08-14-2008, 07:54 PM
How about NASA and the soft impact on Jupiter?

That is pretty good although it was a known sized object at a known distance.

I knew a fellow named Jim who hunted jackrabbits with his deer rifle which was a .375 H&H. He said, "If you can hit a running rabbit, you can hit a running deer." Jim was pretty much a one gun man.

Concho Bill

Paul Fielder
08-14-2008, 08:23 PM
How about NASA and the soft impact on Jupiter?

...I wonder how much the avg. ($) per round is??

pf

<><

jackie schmidt
08-15-2008, 09:36 AM
As an avid Benchrest Competitor, most would naturally assume I would say, "Of course, 100-200 yard Benchrest". But, I am not so niave as to think that.

I have stated it many times on these Forums, every shooting Discipline has some unique quirk that produces the level of difficulty. There are many shooting Disciplines that require a certain amount of athletic ability. (man, does that leave most of us out). This could involve eye hand coordination, stamina, and quickness. Heck, I might be able to get down into the prone position, but getting up is the problem.

Others involve a strong mental capacity, being able to think at a moments notice, and make correct decisions based on what what you observe.

Others are very equipment oriented. Of course, paramount in this field is Benchrest, whether it be 100-200 group, score, or long range. The finest shooter on the Planet cannot overcome the deficiencies of a Rifle that is not up to the task. As for 100-200 yard Benchrest, it all starts with the Rifle. The simple fact is, great Rifles make good shooters. That is why most of us spend so much time insuring that the Rifle is up to the task at hand.

But, which is really the most difficult test of marksmanship for most Humans to master?? Anything that involves off hand shooting, such as many Pistol Disiplines, and Rifle Disciplines such as High Power.

The simple fact is, the shooters that participate in those types of shooting could learn to do what I do. But, I doubt very seriously that I could master what they do, for obvious reasons. Mybe 30 years ago, but not now.......jackie

beemanbeme
08-15-2008, 10:59 AM
I'm gonna agree and disagree. You have to have the EQ regardless of what discipline you're shooting but you can't buy your way into the winner's circle.
I agree each different kind of shooting has innate challenges but I think a fellow that would have the mental discipline to do the needed things to win at Bench Rest would also be a winner in any of the others. And vice versa.

Let's face it, anyone that would give up drinking coffee two days before a match has got to be a strong willed individual! :D

Alan Warner
08-15-2008, 12:10 PM
I'm game (if a range cane be found to use) for 1000 yd offhand.

Shot it once, 10 rounds. a bit of a contest. 7 made paper.

Del Martin
08-16-2008, 02:13 PM
The original thread started with what is the truest test of a marksman. Well there is a story of a man who was tested. His name was George Farr and it happened in 1921. The story is told by Dick Culver and it is too long to copy here. I will give a link to the site where you can read about a "real" marksman.
http://www.bobrohrer.com/sea_stories/end_of_an_era.pdf
It is worth your time if you don't already know the story.

Bill Wynne
08-16-2008, 04:22 PM
The original thread started with what is the truest test of a marksman. Well there is a story of a man who was tested. His name was George Farr and it happened in 1921. The story is told by Dick Culver and it is too long to copy here. I will give a link to the site where you can read about a "real" marksman.
http://www.bobrohrer.com/sea_stories/end_of_an_era.pdf
It is worth your time if you don't already know the story.

"It ain't braggin'if you can do it."

Concho Bill