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Larry M
07-09-2008, 10:45 PM
The pressure ring on the bullets in my 30BR is below the sized portion of the neck. I called Harrells and asked if they could modify the die to size more or all of the neck they said no. Is the there anyone who could fix this die for me?
Thanks.
Larry

david dumas
07-09-2008, 11:02 PM
The pressure ring on the bullets in my 30BR is below the sized portion of the neck. I called Harrells and asked if they could modify the die to size more or all of the neck they said no. Is the there anyone who could fix this die for me?
Thanks.
Larry

have ya shot it yet?? I known 2 shooter's that ream 1/2 of thier neck bushing out so they just size the last 1/8-5/32 of the neck,,,, if it ain't broke don't worry about trying to fix it,,,,,

the wind is my friend,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

DD

alinwa
07-10-2008, 01:30 AM
Larry,

Why do you want to "fix" it?

al

Charles E
07-10-2008, 06:24 AM
Or, you could throat out your chamber so the pressure ring doesn't have to be seated below the neck . . .

crb
07-10-2008, 07:42 AM
What bullet are you shooting? May be a basic mis-match between the reamer and bullet.

Dick Grosbier
07-10-2008, 05:28 PM
Something is strange here I shoot a zero freebore reamer with both 10 Ogive Bibs and 7 0give Eubers and cannot even imagine bullet being that far back in case ? I use a Harrels die and am very happy with it , what weight/ ogive bullets are you shooting ?

Larry M
07-10-2008, 10:03 PM
This is a 0 freebore chamber. BIB 118 7og. I have the 10's also but they dont go as deep in the case. Right now I'm loading them .030" into the lands. The rifle shoots ok but everyone tells me pressure ring below sized portion is a no-no. I just want to eliminate any possible causes of trouble. I was trying to avoid the expense of a custom die but if this die is stuck as is I may go ahead have one made.

alinwa
07-10-2008, 10:18 PM
Larry M,

See if it shoots :)

I believe that the neck slaps out to seal the case against gas leakage before the bullet enters the lands........the neck'll be clear open before the bullet moves.

I can't imagine how the pressure ring could even contact the constriction in the neck. I've shot a lot of rifles running the base below the sized portion of the neck, haven't ever considered that it could have a deleterious effect.


Maybe someone else can point out what I'm missing.


al

Charles E
07-10-2008, 10:32 PM
. . . I was trying to avoid the expense of a custom die but if this die is stuck as is I may go ahead have one made.A throater is around $75. A custom die is around $200. If you throat out your chamber around .010, you'll likely be set for any of the BIBs.

BTW, you don't need a lathe for this -- you don't even need to pull the barrel. Make up (or have made up) a delrin guide to fit the action. Several descriptions of the tooling & method in the Gunsmith Forum archives.

Edit:

Al, the neck may or may not seal the chamber before the bullet begins to move. I doubt anyone knows for sure. But even if the neck seals, it (may) do this only for the last 1/4 inch or so. The neck at the neck/shoulder junction may be a different story. Moreover, bullet tension may be affected. I know if I push a bullet with a significant pressure ring through the neck -- at least, a long neck (not Wolf Pup), it moves easier after the pressure ring clears the neck. The brass may spring back overnight to increase tension, but that's not how I want to control it. I won't go so far as to say pushing a FB bullet with a pressure ring through the neck is a no-no, but i also don't want to do it.

Gene Beggs
07-10-2008, 10:35 PM
This is a 0 freebore chamber. BIB 118 7og. I have the 10's also but they dont go as deep in the case. Right now I'm loading them .030" into the lands. The rifle shoots ok but everyone tells me pressure ring below sized portion is a no-no. I just want to eliminate any possible causes of trouble. I was trying to avoid the expense of a custom die but if this die is stuck as is I may go ahead have one made.

Larry, the die is not your problem, the problem is the leade in your chamber. With a zero freebore, you will likely be limited to the use of boattail bullets. If you are going to use a flatbase, 7 ogive bullet, you need at least a .035 freebore and a .045 would be better.

Your gunsmith can lengthen the throat in your rifle with a throating reamer.

Hope this helps

Gene Beggs

crb
07-10-2008, 10:52 PM
Try some 112's.

alinwa
07-10-2008, 11:04 PM
Charles,

It seems counterintuitive that the neck ahead of the bullet would seal without the neck at the base being opened. I'll have to think about it. :cool:

There is no doubt that the pressure ring can be felt going thru the neck, especially when using very light nt, but unless it's prone to be damaged by the act of popping out into the un-sized portion I can't imagine that the effect of the ring's passage thru the neck has any effect on bullet pull. I run .001-.002-.003 interferences and they're all different, linear.......I can't see the tenth or so of the pressure ring as having any effect.........


interesting


al

Pete Wass
07-10-2008, 11:06 PM
It is quite difficult to go wrong with a 30 BR no matter what but be sure to put enough powdah in er. There are folks having sucess shooting loads of H-4198 over 35g. As long as you load the cases sufficiently and consistently, it is pretty hard to go wrong. I have the very best results shooting Speer TNT's that are .308 without a pressure ring. If one thinks about it a bit, why should Boat Tail bullets work well? But they do. And then there are those who shoot with bullets .030 off the lands, how could you imagine a problem when faced with the wide variety of successful setups?

There are plenty, nearly everybody, shooting 30 BR's with zero freebore. Throats are not much of an issue except to limit the bullets one can use, especially some of the "Exocits". The zero freebore should enable you, not deminish you. Shoot 7 ogive bullets and you will never go wrong.

eww1350
07-10-2008, 11:34 PM
LarryM..How about posting some photos of your sized brass and a loaded round.?
I have 2 - 30BRs and shoot 118s (7 ogive) in one and 112s (7 ogive) in the other..Both rifles are chambered with a "Robinette" zero freebore reamer..I do NOT size my entire neck length...I use a Redding bushing die...I am able to keep my bullets pressure ring above the sized area...
I have a hard time understanding how the Harrell die will not work for you...A picture will go a long way towards explain the issue..

Larry M
07-12-2008, 12:52 AM
I may be able to get a pic tomorrow. The rifle does shoot. But I had an issue last weekend, but it could have been a number of things. The base of the bullet on the 7og is right at where the sizing stops. But I took it out this evening to to try it with 3 different bushings to see what effect that might have if any. I had a .324, .325, .326. I shot 3-3shot groups with each in good conditions. The largest group measured .258, the average of all 9 groups was .176. The gun shoots, I may be grasping at ghosts. But why has everyone told me that pressure ring below the sized portion is bad juju

alinwa
07-12-2008, 02:06 AM
Larry,

During the 80's it was considered verboten to run the pressure ring below the sized portion. I've got articles here that talk about the bullet "swiveling on the pressure ring for better alignment". This was also the high time for Wilson hand dies.......many folks were neck sizing only so the issue was front and center.

People still avoid it like a plague..... I'm not saying that the idea of keeping the ring in the sized portion all wet but I've done it quite a bit the other way and can't see the problem.

If someone could care to explain to me why it might be a problem I'll gladly stand corrected. Even if someone says "I tried it and my groups opened up" is enough for me. I've yet to find anything but "don't do that!" I'm with Larry, why is it taught that you want to avoid running the base down into the unsized portion of the neck? WHY is it bad juju? :)

al

Dick Grosbier
07-12-2008, 02:59 AM
i did some checking on several different 30 Cal Loads with 118/10 Bib and 115 Eubers today and I must admit the pressure rings were near or at the bottom of the sized portion of the neck. However these 4 different rifles shoot remarkably well in my opinion, particularly when I do not pull the trigger at the wrong time.

I just cannot see this as anything to worry about, except if you do get all the way back in the neck you will restrict how much powder you can get in the case.

Dick Grosbier

greg
07-12-2008, 08:25 AM
Larry,

During the 80's it was considered verboten to run the pressure ring below the sized portion. I've got articles here that talk about the bullet "swiveling on the pressure ring for better alignment". This was also the high time for Wilson hand dies.......many folks were neck sizing only so the issue was front and center.

People still avoid it like a plague..... I'm not saying that the idea of keeping the ring in the sized portion all wet but I've done it quite a bit the other way and can't see the problem.

If someone could care to explain to me why it might be a problem I'll gladly stand corrected. Even if someone says "I tried it and my groups opened up" is enough for me. I've yet to find anything but "don't do that!" I'm with Larry, why is it taught that you want to avoid running the base down into the unsized portion of the neck? WHY is it bad juju? :)

al

folks size the neck with a particular busing to get a particular neck tension with a seated bullet. The bullet pressure ring is larger than the bearing surface measurement. If you seat the pressure ring below the sized part of the case you loose your neck tension. You would, in essence, have to use a smaller sized bushing if you were going to do this but then you would be streatching the case with the pressure ring diameter of the bullet and hoping it would be live enough to spring back and grab the smaller bearing surface bullet area with the desired tension. Some folks live by neck tension I guess. --Greg

Boyd Allen
07-12-2008, 11:01 AM
Different powders may have different neck tension requirements. If you are using a powder that "needs" a lot of neck tension, and the bullet that you favor falls below the sized part of the neck, the easiest thing to do will be to have a good smith lengthen the throat, with a throating reamer of the appropriate diameter. You could also have a custom one piece die made, but that would be more expensive.

Speaking to Al's dilemma, (three different chambers), the first thing that I did ,when I decided to have a PPC built, was to research and buy my own reamer. All of my barrels have been chambered with it, by the same smith, and I don't have to remember which brass or die goes with a particular barrel. At least I did ONE thing right.

alinwa
07-12-2008, 01:43 PM
I haven't found that the pressure ring has any effect on neck tension.

al

Bob Kingsbury
07-13-2008, 09:40 AM
Alinwa,, I think the belief that seating below sized area is bad
comes from another place, Not BR. Those that load 223's and 243's
with lots of air space and neck sizing on the short side have had
bullets drop down in the case, especially when carried in the pocket.
Normally this is not the case with the 30 BR. That said, the 30BR
has a sufficient neck length even with zero freebore. Some dies
have been made to size very short. Necks turned to thin may also
cause this. Given the normal configureation of the 30 BR, something
is off

eww1350
07-13-2008, 09:53 AM
The idea that seating a bullet below the sized area on the neck is "bad" comes from Mike Ratigans book...He covers that issue in great detail..

Dick Grosbier
07-13-2008, 01:14 PM
The idea that seating a bullet below the sized area on the neck is "bad" comes from Mike Ratigans book...He covers that issue in great detail..

I thought Mr. Ratigan shot a PPC. We are talking 30BR here,lotta things that you wouldn't do with a PPC work very well in the 30.

Larry M
07-13-2008, 03:59 PM
I think asking some others at a match is a good idea. I also will be seeing my smith about another rifle soon. I'm going to show him whatI've got going on too and see what he says too. Thank you for all your input gentlemen.

Boyd Allen
07-13-2008, 04:02 PM
With a FB custom bullet, such as is commonly used in short range Benchrest, is positioned in a sized neck so that the base of the bullet is within the sized portion, the pressure ring sort of interlocks with the neck which forms around it. Also, the step in the neck where the base of the bullet rests against the unsized part of the neck increases the pressure needed to push the bullet farther into the case. These features may not be important with powders that do not "require" relatively high neck tension, or bullets with ogive shapes that do not shoot their best near jam, but with the combination that I commonly shoot (133 with a double radius ogive bullet) it helps to have the heel of the bullet in the sized portion of the neck to increase the force needed to push the bullet farther back in the case as the bolt is closed, increasing the maximum OAL at jam.

In the past, I have seated bullets past the sized portion of the neck and as the pressure ring passed out of the sized part, the bullet became easier to push.

Al Nyhus
07-13-2008, 04:40 PM
Hi Larry.

How much of the length of the case neck does the bushing size? Take a black Sharpie, color the entire length of the neck, run the case into the die and through a bushing, measure how far down the neck the bushing has worn the Sharpie off and post your findings, okay?

Maybe others using the Harrel 30BR dies could also post this info. Then, Larry could see if his die is on par with what others are getting. -Al

Pete Wass
07-13-2008, 07:22 PM
Any good machinist should be able to make the pocket the bushing sits in deeper thus allowing the neck to be sized deeper. I am all for sizing the whole danged neck; why not? they are gonna get hard anyway and need to be annealed even if one only sizes 1/3 of it. another way out of this is to have some freebore put into the next reamer you buy. .020 would give one a lot more latitude in which bullets one is easily able to use.

Larry M
07-13-2008, 09:04 PM
Measuring something like this isn't super precise, but mine sizes .231-.233 as best I can tell. The whole case measures 1.510 and a longer case would obviously have more of the neck sized.

Wilbur
07-13-2008, 09:39 PM
and mentioning the neck "seal"...

I think the neck seals from the shoulder forward. Indication of that is the soot found somewhat forward of the shoulder and getting blacker toward the mouth of the case. It must seal rather quickly or more of the case would be "sooty".

Bob Kingsbury
07-13-2008, 09:53 PM
I was shooting a very contemptable 6BR today. With .005 jump, I had
soot on shoulders, jamed fixed that. No more black shoulders. Even
H4198 doesn't seal shoulder without Jam. Cases have been fired 12 times.
Bumped .001 each time. Fireforming 6ppc's with a 22 bullet seals better.
recently a 22-250 a friend has was doing that. New cases solved it.
the old cases were about 30 yrs old but had only been fired twice.

Pete Wass
07-13-2008, 11:39 PM
From my experince, cases need their shoulder-neck area annealed after every 5 or 6 firings to give good seals and consistent seating. Cases annealed properly in this manor will last a very long time. There is a compelling reason one sees the annealing stains on new ammo and or cases.

Bob Kingsbury
07-14-2008, 06:25 PM
Pete, in comparison to a ppc,and with cases made by the same manufacturer. I question that? I treat the Br in the same manner.
I would assume they would be similiar material and be annealed
about the same. practice cases in ppc have been no problem, lasting
near 50 firings. Never soot on the shoulders

Al Nyhus
07-15-2008, 08:33 AM
Measuring something like this isn't super precise, but mine sizes .231-.233 as best I can tell. The whole case measures 1.510 and a longer case would obviously have more of the neck sized.

Larry, my JLC modified Redding Body Die sizes the entire length of the case neck which is about .300 on the 1.510 length cases.

If the die sizes the brass correctly for your chamber, I sure wouldn't get a new die. I bet if you check with the Harrells they can modify it for 'ya. They are good people to work with.

Pete in Surry
07-15-2008, 12:47 PM
Pete, in comparison to a ppc,and with cases made by the same manufacturer. I question that? I treat the Br in the same manner.
I would assume they would be similiar material and be annealed
about the same. practice cases in ppc have been no problem, lasting
near 50 firings. Never soot on the shoulders

BUT, if you tried annealing as often as I suggested, you might find that you like the results you get. Any brass, no matter who makes it will work harden quite quickly. I use both Lapua and Winchester and find that both brands harden at about the same rate as they age. It's easy to tell when they need it. One finds that some of the cases seem to allow the bullets to slip into the necks easier than others. The easy ones are the hard ones that return to or near their expanded state. The sooting of the shoulders is not the real issue.

Larry M
07-15-2008, 05:04 PM
Al, I called them first and they won't do it. I might call JLC and see if he can help me out.