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View Full Version : Age old Question- Revolver or Pistol



Old Timer
07-05-2008, 09:00 PM
I have both revolvers and pistols, however I still fight with myself on what sidearm to carry. High power 5 shot revolver or multiple shot pistol. Any input would be appreciated.

Paul Fielder
07-05-2008, 09:37 PM
...with the Light weight frame in commander size for all around. The cocked & locked type is not for everyone but I'm biased and love this design that won WWII. You cannot go wrong with the .45acp.

I would not feel under gunned w/ a compact wheel gun either. The S&W 442 is a great pocket gun if you don't want to mess w/ a holster & .38+p is as light a round I use for my comfort zone.

pf

alinwa
07-06-2008, 12:24 AM
Glock 36

They finally got one right.

awesome

al

rudedog
07-06-2008, 01:04 AM
Are you sure they got it right?
They have a video on You Tube about Glocks and firing them with a loose grip and they would jam.
But then again I'm prejudiced I like 45 Gold Cup Colts
Rudy Manuel:confused:

alinwa
07-06-2008, 02:15 AM
Check out the 36 :)

It's the one Glock that I will (and DO) own....... I will buy another one when they finally come out with a single stacker in the new GAP. It shoots anything, hard, loose, upside down and sideways. I guess if I couldn't get one I'd opt for a Kahr and live with the weight.

I own 1911's, Commanders, Springfield, my wife shoots a Kimber Racegun. IMO a 1911 is NON-concealable unless you're an eskimo.

Also for a carry gun it's got a hideous training curve and a bunch of goofy protrusions. IMO "cocked and locked" is silly and an external hammer is retarded. I don't want to pull the trigger to find the hammer blocked with lint or mud or whatever. I've had Sig's and Smith's and Lugers and Rugers......I tried the Titanium 44 but couldn't load it down to work. I've got a buddy who makes revolvers using cut down 45 Long Colt which makes for a concealable revolver "equivalent" to the 45ACP but whatahassle. And moon clips are not for me.

My carry-gun is a Glock 36 because that's all there is...........although recently everyone seems to be trying to make a clone. My wife's carry gun is a LadySmith, my second choice. Unfortunately it's only a .357 Mag, a popgun. I'd like to cut off the hammer spur because it's stupid but she won't let me :) And I'm worried about ignition anyway.


"Carry gun" is by definition a tool. For me that means EASY, FUNCTIONAL and LIGHT.......small is a bonus. It has to be ambidextrous and utterly intuitive with no "safety". Grab it and squeeze, anytime, anywhere either hand in any position.


The Glock is freakin' spooky. Load it, rack the slide and drop it in your pocket. Pull it out to shoot a rabbit and drop it back in your pocket.

scary!

awesome.

al

Winchester 69
07-06-2008, 02:54 AM
A semi-automatic pistol requires regular practice for its use to be considered reliable. A revolver is less user dependent.
.

505Gibbs
07-06-2008, 07:04 AM
If you're in a dangerous situation and the semi-auto goes click - you're in a world of hurt!
IF it's critical - get a revolver!!:)

realm-aw
07-06-2008, 09:57 AM
Check out a CZ-75, not just information, get one in your hand. Remember also that Jeff Cooper claimed it was a superior choice. I have 4 1911s including 2 high capacity and as many revolvers. My carry choice is the CZ based on reliability and the compromise between concealability and power (what I really want for a gunfight is a 12 ga!). Consider the fact that law enforcement and the military have overwhelmingly choosen autos. My carry gun in snake country is my trusty revolver, but for a gunfight situation go with all the ammo capacity you can carry.

Louis Boyd
07-06-2008, 10:06 AM
If you're in a dangerous situation and the semi-auto goes click - you're in a world of hurt!
IF it's critical - get a revolver!!:)

IF you try to pull the trigger on a revolver and the cylinder doens't turn the gun is just as useless and perhaps harder to clear than a jammed semi-auto. Either can fail. Either can be reliable. Using good ammo, keeping a firearm clean, regular inspection, and maintenance are require about equaly for revolvers or semi-autos. There are good models and there are junk models of both. Even the best firearm can become unusable with misuse, neglect, or bad ammo.

Old Timer
07-06-2008, 10:38 AM
They sure are handsome handguns, but the safety on the back of the grip on a 1911 just screams gunfight problems to me. I think it is called a
(Lemon squeezer) ???

Mr. D
07-06-2008, 10:39 AM
It depends how handgun comfortable you are? I have both revolvers and I pistols. I have a Sig Sauer P226 which is very reliable. I don't like cock and lock automatics for people that are not extremely comfortable with pistols as a safety issue. I prefer a double action pistol.

A very nice revolver for a woman that wants self defense, but doesn't shoot regularly is the S&W Chief's Special 3". It's a 5 shot were the locking lugs don't line up with the cylinder so it can be smaller. I load a 110/125 grain wide open soft point at enough pressure to wreck you day! If you can't stop somebody with the first 5 shots you should learn to run! :eek:

realm-aw
07-06-2008, 04:10 PM
"If you can't stop somebody with the first 5 shots you should learn to run!"

I just finished a concealed carry class and here are a few lessons.

#1) Run if at all possible! Average legal cost is $80,000. Even if you are never charged with a crime there will be a civil wrongful death/injury lawsuit.
#2) You will most likely be faced with multiple attackers. Gangs hunt in packs. They will have plenty of ammo.
#3) You will likely be shot. Will you be able to reload and continue to defend yourself with only one hand?
#4) Survival instincts will take over in a life threatening situation. No precisely aimed shots, just seeing the threat and getting the gun pointed and the trigger pulled ASAP! The example was given of a motorcycle cop who was suddenely in a gunfight. His first round went into the gas tank of his bike and then progressed on up into the threat as fast as he could shoot.

I'm thinking 5 rounds is better than no rounds, but I'd rather have 15.

alinwa
07-06-2008, 04:33 PM
Ok Ok, here we go again :(


Now I'll be vilified for trying to bring on an "informed opinion" VS just any old opinion but ........This is BRC not some other parody forum......people come here for answers.


Thank you to all the folks who gave REASONS for their opinions. This is what makes some opinions more valid than others......Let the folks over at the "sniper" forums or the "urban gunfighting" forums talk about how "I bought one so it's gooder than yours"....... On THIS forum Jeff Coopers opinion is more meaningful than Bubba Gumps.

Well, it USETA' BE anyway :mad:



Mr D,

I'm not sure just what you're saying..... "You like double action pistols"? Or "The Sig is a double action pistol"?

How do you define "double action pistol"?

The 226 is not a "double action" it's a bastardized single action with a "cocking stroke" which you'll fire into your foot, the air, the ground or an innocent bystander in a firefight........and it's a 9mm Parabellum. HOW is this in any way preferable to any other popgun on the planet? Please support your choice with something other than "well, I like it"? Have you ever stress-fired it?? Have you EVER actually USED it?? Please explain with FACTS how a "double-single action" works for your advantage to HIT something in a firefight, or how a clumsy double-stacked handfull of teeny rounds is "better" than one or two well-placed manstoppers.......Please use Military or PD cites to make your argument. Use cites from someone who actually USES guns to KILL people........ Use STATISTICS not OPINIONS.



Now, about the Smith having "locking lugs that don't line up with the cylinder so it can be smaller"? Say WHAT??? Please explain for us uninformed. Just WHAT does this mean?? I'm trained as a gunsmith and an armorer so please don't hold back with the terminology......

And as for this last statement ... "I load a 110/125 grain wide open soft point at enough pressure to wreck you day! If you can't stop somebody with the first 5 shots you should learn to run!" :eek: ......


PLEASE people THINK before you try to stop someone who really means it using a 110-125gr reloaded bullet..........If you REALLY have to use a gun on someone please don't do it "to wreck their day", PLEASE reconsider using handloads and NEVER go into it with the intent of "learning to run".......


This whole post exemplifies what NOT TO CONSIDER for effectual use of deadly force. THIS IS NOT A VIDEO GAME people!! This is about KILLING another human being. Making them DEAD..... NOW!!!

PLEASE think about it as such.


realm-aw,

You sound like someone who wants to think. I've looked at, held and fired the CZ's...... They're fun to race with, compensated. Please take the time to do the same with THIS Glock, the 36. See what you think. It MIGHT change your worldview ;)


((((((BTW I agree with you on the 12ga :). As long as it's a pump action with a stock not some stupid pistol-gripped monstrosity with a name like "Hallway Sweeper" or "Door Breacher" or "Handle Of Death" or somesuch ..... STUPID!! A Rem870 Express simply exemplifies the genre :) NOW, regarding 12ga shottyguns........ please ask a GUNSMITH or a GUNFIGHTER about this before getting one of the commonly touted "defense shotguns" like the Mossberg Sod Off or the Windchester "Defender".........please ask someone who actually HAS A CLUE regarding the rotary bolt or the single-sided actuating bar or the efficacy of pistol-gripped guns.......... OR, take them out and USE THEM! Try to actually HIT something with the pistol-gripped abortion. SHOOT a clay bird or 2 or 50 out of the air. Can you HIT one??? Now, can your WIFE do it??? )))))


rant OFF :D



wheewwwww .......... :eek:


505 and Win 69,

........ again, this is BRC. Please support your assertions with FACTS. Show one cite which explains how a real pistol is more likely to go "click" than a revolver. They BOTH have their weak points but reliability-wise you'll have a hard time proving that ANY revolver is more reliable than a Glock. I'm absolutely NOT a Glock Fanboy, I'm a Tool User. They've been clumsy and poorly designed for self-defense in the past but they've established an enviable reputation for utter reliability and simplicity.

I restate my assertion, in the Model 36 they finally got it RIGHT IMO :cool:

At least checki'dout before dis'ing it. FIRE it, limp-wrist it, invert it and dunk it.........I'm a trained pistol-smith and I'll unconditionally recommend it over anything else which I've ever encountered FOR A TOOL DESIGNED CARRY AND TO KILL SOMEONE.......

This and only this responds to the OP.




Ohhhh, and I'll pre-respond right now to all of the Feel-Goody Liberal waaaahh -waaaahhh types who find it distasteful to talk about "Killing" .......... Go soak your collective heads..........


I'll refrain from political wrangling but I find it hard to stay out of a gun discussion....

al

keithcandler
07-06-2008, 05:10 PM
People do not all handle guns the same, and not all guns are user friendly.You may answer your own question by completing a couple of simple tests.

You will need a place to shoot in order to do this test.

Put up a target 7 yards away from you.

With the gun in your coat pocket, holser, stuck in your belt, or where ever you intend to carry the gun, pull the gun, point at the target and fire each gun as quickly as you possibly can, just as if you were fighting off an attacker. If you are not intending to carry the pistol, just let it hang from your side while you hold it. Snap the pistol and fire it at the target in the fastest time that you can and still hit the target (WATCH THAT FRONT SIGHT)!

If you shoot two sets of targets with each gun, you will know which gun you prefer to defend yourself, and only you can answer your own question.

Many pistols are not worth two cents in a gun fight for various reasons, they are just racket makers.

I shoot IDPA from time to time and it is some of the best practical training that a person can go through that ever wants to train to defend themselves in a gunfight. Simple little procedures like the one above can demonstrate that some individuals handle one type of pistol much better than others. Your results will be an eye opener, no doubt.

speedpro
07-06-2008, 05:10 PM
revolvers are better than nothin and preferable for large dangerous game that might eat you.
My personal preference for the 2 legged anmials in my neck of the woods is a pistol, preferably a 1911 .45acp cocked and locked with nightsites, lot's and lot's of ammo and magazines and some 200gr., Speer Lawman H.P., I think they changed the name to "Gold Dots", with the velocity ran up so they open up to atleast 1" dia on simulated human tissue. Put's em down real good and they don't squirm as much as with lesser bullets. lol Just my logic, your mileage may very. :)

Old Timer
07-06-2008, 05:10 PM
I have two children, both have friends that come over and play. The thing I like about a pistol is, they have a clip. They are easy to unload and reload, just in case a child was to get their hands on one, it will be unloaded.

Plus every pistol that I have ever shot, is more accurate than every revolver I have ever shot. I know hearing damage should not be an issue when you are defending your self, but pistols are not as loud as revolvers.

OT

rudedog
07-06-2008, 05:14 PM
Al I'll have to try one out at the range, I've got a Glock mod. 22 now, i sold my 9mm Glock.Thats one of the great things about indoor ranges around here you can rent handguns to try out.Have a lot of friends at work ,who I've started
shooting this way, to purchase, and find guns that fit them.Second is buy quality.I don't know about you Al,but their are some handguns that i don't shoot well with,or should I say I have to work real hard to be accurate with,It's much easier if you can find a point and shoot gun,especially if you are in a shoot out.
Mr. D I ruined a brand new 38 Chief's Special one day all it took was 25 rounds of +p+,had to have it rebuilt,hope your lucks not that bad shooting hot handloads.:D

Mr. D
07-06-2008, 06:28 PM
Mr. D I ruined a brand new 38 Chief's Special one day all it took was 25 rounds of +p+,had to have it rebuilt,hope your lucks not that bad shooting hot handloads.:D

Well, a 38 Chief's Special is not meant to shoot high pressures. +p+ loads must be above 38 special pressures. I recommend the old Unique powder. It's dirty, but progressive and safer for warm loads at lower pressures. I loaded 110 gr. bullet with Unique that chronographed just over 1100 FPS and I've had no problem with it. After a bullet leaves the body the energy is wasted, so you don't need massive energy and penetration. I'd expect a couple of 110 to 125 gr. jacket hollow points in the center of the chest to do the trick. As to a good shooting revolver I don't think anything will do any better than a K frame S&W 38 or 357 if you have small to medium sized hands. That frame has done well in the Olympics. It shoots like a dream.

Paul Fielder
07-06-2008, 06:46 PM
good post......I just can't find the love for the Glock. I have no doubt they make a good pistol but I need to like the looks of my guns and can't get past the ugly and the trigger pull?? I would think the glock and 1911 would be the same as far as conceal ability??

I have wheel guns and 3 Govt. model 1911's. They are the only auto's I have & I have one in each of three main sizes....an officers, commander and full .....all custom. The two .45's will even shoot rat shot as fast as you can pull the trigger not to mention any handload (for practice / target only) and all weights of defensive bullets. The full size is a .38 super. I agree, all defensive ammo should be factory.

I guess it's what you have trust and faith in....I have many buddies in LEO from local to fed and they are split 50-50 best I can tell from the sig design & the glock. I would not feel undergunned with either and I like the P220 but not enough over the 1911. I will tell you the serious shooters all carry 1911's when they come out to the ranch when off duty. None of them stock but will admit the 1911 is not for everyone & has issues, but I'm stuck and sold on them.

pf

Mr. D
07-06-2008, 06:59 PM
I love my 9mm Sig Sauer 226! No downside that I have found. Accurate, reliable and double action which I think is safer for a defense gun. Cock and lock worries me, and having to run one into the chamber worries me. If you need to take a gun on a trip an automatic is quicker to load. I keep it with a empty magazine on trips with cartridges in the back of my pickup. I have another loaded magazine out of sight in the cab. The gun is empty, but easy to load. That's the closest I can come to following the law and still protect a family! ;)

realm-aw
07-06-2008, 08:02 PM
An incident as related to me by the officer with the12 ga:
'There had been a drive by shooting and we had pulled over the suspect vehicle. My lieutenant was in the squad car ahead of me and the suspect was standing by his car. The lieutenant had his Glock 9mm pointed at the driver at a range of six feet but the kid would not put his hands up. He just was standing there ignoring the orders. As I jumped out of my car I grabbed the 12 ga. and came up behind my lieutenant. I slid the barrel of past his shoulder while jacking a round into the chamber. The kid’s hands went up like rockets! Later as I was putting the handcuffs on him he said he was sure I was going to shoot. He also stated he had wet his pants at the sound of that round being chambered. I shined my flashlight down at his pants and sure enough…’

alinwa
07-07-2008, 04:06 AM
Nice points made.


Now I'd like to expand upon my reasoning a little.

A story :)

I have a friend who rides bikes all over the mountains......wayyyyy out in the boonies on his pedal bike, also cross-country town-to-town. He's ridden across the US.

So anyways, this guy decides he wants to carry a defense gun so he goes to a police officer buddy with his situation and the guy recommends a common S&W design. (Actually the guy sold him "his old carry piece" for a fair price...) Welll..... he ends up with this sweet looking little 9mm and he feels fairly secure until one day he's riding down into a ratty looking "camp" about 10mi behind nowhere and this big dude steps out from behind a tree and blocks the trail.

My friend tensed right up.

He actually had to THINK about where his gun was.......it was in his fanny pack on his right side which was his front braking hand which was locking his bike down. Long story short the situation wound down when my friend's riding buddy hove into view, weighing in at 258lb..........

So later they're riding along together talking about "the gun situation" and they decided to actually TRY this stuff ;) They're still miles from nowhere and it's totally legal to shoot to your heart's content out here...... so they tried it.

#1- reach for the fanny -pack, can't find the zipper......cancel ONE
#2- reach for the fanny pack, zipper folds up and jams.......cancel TWO
#3- reach for the pack, (repositioned to the FRONT) with it jammed against one leg....got it OPEN, now WHERE'S THE BLOODY PISTOL???....rooting around to find it (remember, dude's riding a mountain bike down a trail here, a MOUNTAIN trail...granola and grapenuts are dribbling out marking his trail.....his camera is hanging on a string.....) gets it out, it's pointed at his nutsack with the hammer on top, COCKED....that's all he notices while he realizes that he's got the barrel in his hand..... CANCEL #3!!!!!


At this point he realizes that a stopped run-through is in order :rolleyes: so they pull over and he goes through all of the motions, gets it all ironed out.

They mount back up, he's in front cuz he's got the gun to fiddle with......

He gets it OUT safely this time and figures he'd better fire it at a stump as he's riding by......... bumpty-bumpty-twisty bumpty........ he aims at some stumps and then decides OK, here goes.....he starts sliding his thumb around and the clip falls out on the ground......cancel #4

So they stop and regroup. THIS time they both decide to fire a few. After some perusal they find the safety, the slide lock and the mag release. They move over and fire... BLAMMMM!!!!!! :eek:..... MANaLIVE!!! who'da' figgered a little 9MM pistol was so steenking LOUD!!!!! So they carefully set the gun down and stuff toilet paper in their ears, go back to pick it up.....is the safety ON or OFF??? point BLAMMM!!!

Yup it was OFF!

After a half hour of fiddling they've burned up their box of shells and are FAIRLY comfortable with the gun so dude unloads it into a pocket and figures he'll dry fire a few own the trail.......


Pull it out, safety off, click.......

It's all fairly smooth.

But what about LEFT-handed?

WHAT the???



You can't FIRE this thing left handed!!!



THIS is when he comes to me. "I need some lessons! I'm worse off WITH this thing than without it!"


WEElllllll'p I sez........"I think you've just got the wrong GUN." "Do you REALLY want to have to TRAIN to shoot this thing??"


So I get him over to the house, we walk into the safe and I show him a bunch of different options ending with my choice of a Glock 36......rack it open. show him the works and set it aside. We load up a couple clips (Holy COW!!! Those are BIG ROUNDS!!!)


Yup :)

I hand him a fanny pack and tell him to strap it on, bag in front. I show him how THIS bag has snaps and velcro so that you can INSTANTLY just rip your way in from any position and either hand and GRAB the gun. From an empty rear compartment.........no fumbling, just rip and grab.

"Now put the mag in the Glock."

OK

"Now rack the slide."

OK

"Now drop it in the pack."



"NO WAY!!!!!

I don't know how to WORK this thing!!!! I don't even know where the safety is!!!!"..........."Please take it AWAY and SHOW ME!!"








"Drop it in the pack".........



He showed extreme reluctance, holding the loaded 45ACP pointed high and into the ceiling of the room.......so I asked him to CAREFULLY hand it to me, high and wide......





And I DROPPED IT, from 6ft Ka-WAKKKK, right on the concrete floor!!!!








"please, drop it in your pack."


He did.









We walked over (he kinda' WADDLED actually trying not to inadvertantly shoot his belly off...) to a set of shooting benches and put on our hearing and eye protection......



"Take out the pistol and lay it on the bench".......

"Now pick it up, acquire the target and and squeeze"......

Blamm-CLANGGG!!!!! (spinning target...)

Holy COW!!!! NOW WHAT???






"put it away"......



"HOW??????"


"just put it back in the pack".......


WADDLE!!! -WADDLE!!!



So now I took him off the hook. I carefully relieved him of the pistol and demonstrated how this was a true double-action pistol.....there WAS NO SAFETY! Nor no decocking lever nor no extraneous protrusions nor no learning curve..........just GRAB IT with either hand and point and squeeze. If'n it don't shoot rack it over again and point and squeeze.....that's IT! There's NOTHING to check......no hammer, no safety, no NUTTIN'!!!


Just point and squeeze.


And when you're done, put it away.


AWESOME!!!!




Sooo..... On the subject of "other" choices. I don't see anyone answering any of my previous questions, defending their choices......




Mr D sez, "I love my 9mm Sig Sauer 226! No downside that I have found."

Well I'll tell you a downside Mr D. To UNDERSTAND this you'll probably have to go shoot the gun competitively or otherwise simulate a fire-fight situation. Unless you're able to think critically about it.....

You don't like to carry cocked and locked so you carry loaded but uncocked, round in the chamber. Now I useta' try to race a Sig 220 and I gotta' tell ya' you DO NOT try to engage from the uncocked condition!!!! I got the Sig because it's written up in the GlossMags as the Real Deal....the Cat's Meaow....the solid Choice Of Professional Magazine Article Writers Everywhere (except for a FEW articles like this one >> http://remtek.com/arms/sig/model/229/229.htm << ) where they mention that "it might be ugly" or "have some buttons in the wrong spot"....but "overall a winner".....


-------------------------


Here's me with a holstered Sig in my "comfortable carry" mode (just like yours Mr D :) I HATE "cocked and locked")

And next to me is my Loverly Wife with her Kimber 45ACP......


GO!!


My gun is fully prep'd and race-ready as is my Beauteous and Deadly Lover's EXCEPT that I've got a 12lb trigger pull for my first round! I've got only about 4lb thereafter but she's STARTING with a dressed out 1911 with a trigger that's 3lb of breaking glass...........


I'm HOSED.....


OVER and OVER I'm HOSED.......there is just NO freakin' WAY you can train for 12lb-4lb-4lb-4lb-4lb-4lb..... so I start shooting cocked and locked. (which is CHEATING BTW...)

She still waxes me straight but hey....I'm at least running :rolleyes:


I need help. Professional help. I call upon the pro's...... "Oh, it's easy....you just fire the first round into the air to cock the piece"..


:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: Now THAT'S about the stupidest method I've ever heard of!!!!


I lose the Sig.


I start shopping out autos........double action ONLY!!!
revolvers....
dressed 1911's.....
a comped out CZ in 32cal Full Race Dress.....

I realize I'm getting further and further from my goal of a practical carry pistol, I have a mental image of it but NOBODY MAKES IT!!!


And then Glock comes out with the 36....ahhhhhhhhhhh......search OVER!


Now PLEASE, somebody CONVINCE ME of a better choice! I'll have reason to purchase another toy......I've got an "Incentive Check" burning a hole in my wallet......


LOL


al


BTW, in my HOUSE there be shotguns.........I ain't ABOUT pistols in the house ;)

Several rooms have nice decorative 12-bores over the doors........ A pre-64 model 12 here, a 97 there.......Ohhhh Yeahhhhhh, there's COMFORT in a shottygun :)

alinwa
07-07-2008, 12:51 PM
BTW Paul Fielder,

The difference between the concealability of the 36 VS the 1911 is dramatic. You can cover the Glock with your hand and it's THIN, thinner than a revolver, thinner than a 1911 and LIGHT.


Ohhh, and KEEP the 1911's!! :D They're still fun to shoot, and everybody needs a few....I haven't seen the brand new minis I'm seeing in the magazines but the Glock is 'wayy smaller than a Commander which I DO have.

al

Roger T
07-07-2008, 01:39 PM
(1) Sig 220 45 acp, Why because it fits me the best and is for me the most accurate out of the box pistol I've ever shot.(2)Colt Delta Elite 10mm a little more power and sentimentle reasons.+P loads in the 220 with the full size stainless frame is alot more controllable than in a sub/compact although the weight takes getting used to (carry wise):)

Paul Fielder
07-07-2008, 01:43 PM
.....if they could only design a concealable 12ga, we would be in the chips:-)

I actually like the commander better than the officers & did sell one of those micro Sprinfield 1911's not too long ago and it was a neat 'little' gun but I like a little more gitty-up than a 9mm.

I never saw a 'skinny' glock :-) so may have to see what all your 36 fuss is about next time I get down to the gun shop.

Hey, no one said you needed buy another pistol w/ your check (still waiting for mine) There are lots of long guns waiting for you. If it were me, I would get a mint Colt DA wheel gun or pre-64 Winchester and put it in the safe. Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure my check will go to cover the health Insurance and mortgage:-(

pf

jackie schmidt
07-07-2008, 02:46 PM
Many do not know this, from 1972 through 1978 I was a Relief Officer for The Jacinto City Police Dept. (a small city on the far East Side of Houston). Relief Officers were full commisioned officers who worked the week end shifts with a regular officer.
Back then, we carried Revolvers. The favorites were the S&W Model 19 in 357 with a 4 inch barrel, and the Colt Trooper. There were a few Model 27's and Pythons floating around, but those were quite pricey even back then.
When the "Dirty Harry" craze hit, EVERYBODY had to have a S&W model 29. That is, they wanted one untill the first time they went to the range with full house loads in that 4 inch barrel. Common sign on the Bulletin Board. "4 inch barrel 44 mag", must sell".
There were a few Colt 1911's and Commanders scattered around, but most were considered way too unreliable to stake your life on. And back then, on the East Side of Houston, there was a pretty good chance that on any given Friday or Saturday night, that is exactly what you would be doing.
That is why any time we went on a call, we carried Shotguns. Winchester Pumps. Loaded with #4 Buchshot.
In my house, and in my Motor Home, that is exactly what I have. Shotguns.
Both are Rossi rabbit ear double barrel Coach Guns. No safety to mess with, nothing to unlock. It's short, easy to handle. You cock it, and it is ready.
I am well aware that this is a deadly weapon, with a "Capitol D". But when it comes to my familly, that is what I want in my hands.
I do not have a Concealed Carry Permit. But my Wife does. She has a Barretta 9mm, a little Colt Auto in 380, and a 38 S&W Escort hammerless That is the one she will have on her 90 percent of the time........jackie

adamsgt
07-07-2008, 04:21 PM
BTW Paul Fielder,

The difference between the concealability of the 36 VS the 1911 is dramatic. You can cover the Glock with your hand and it's THIN, thinner than a revolver, thinner than a 1911 and LIGHT.


Ohhh, and KEEP the 1911's!! :D They're still fun to shoot, and everybody needs a few....I haven't seen the brand new minis I'm seeing in the magazines but the Glock is 'wayy smaller than a Commander which I DO have.

al

I've always loved the 45 acp and have many 1911's. My only Glock is a model 21 that I bought before Glock came out with the model 36. The 21 is bulky and while accurate with factory and reloads it's not the best for CCW.
I do like it though and will have to consider the model 36. By the way, I also have a Colt Defender that I like a lot and use for carry and qualification up till now. Your opinion of this gun vis a vis the 1911 and 36?

speedpro
07-07-2008, 04:56 PM
man,seems to me that shootin a punk with a glock would be akin to havin sex with a strap-on, both made of plastic or some direvitive. No doubt they get the job done but not as sexy as a 45acp 1911, ain't no glory in gettin shot with a glock how many adverseries in WWII last site on earth was at the muzzle flash of a glock, yeah I know... but they couldn't have passed mil-spec anyway.....:p Let me know if glocks are still as popular and claim the sucess rate 100yrs., down the road like the King 1911 45. Not a chance ;)

chino69
07-07-2008, 05:25 PM
I have to confess I've carried everything concealed from a S&W 1076 to a Sig P220, etc. I have Bianchi Pistol Pockets, Miami Vice rigs, side draw, cross draw, etc. and they're all a pain in the a** to carry for any length of time. I carry a S&W Model 60 Chief's Special, most of the time tucked in the front of my pants with my belt holding it in. A loose fitting shirt over the front and there's no print. I don't expect to ever get into a prolonged gun fight where I'll need all three 16 rd. magazines for my Sig P226 to fend off the Crips or Bloods; just a little persuasion for someone who may not be thinking clearly. I'm talking street carry not defending one's domicile. For the home, I keep several 12 gauge pumps with #4 buckshot.
Chino69

speedpro
07-07-2008, 05:49 PM
my pistol with nitesites keep my room illuminated enough at night that I can see in the dark what I need to see in case of an intrusion by an unfriendly visitor an ofcourse "that's my boy, a trusty 1911 45 " I set the sites facing me and between the eye's of the sites watching me and the Heavenly Father I'm good to go......:)
I use to have a nice brand new 12ga. with 00 in the closet but it got stolen PMO...:mad:

now only if they could make a 1911 with "audio" like, "wake up dude, someone just kicked in the basement window". :eek:....:rolleyes:

alinwa
07-08-2008, 12:44 AM
WELL...... we shooters seem to be enjoying ONE consensus any ways, big is better.....Shotguns and 45ACP's RULE :D


And remember, the 36 IS A FULL-ON 45ACP GUYS!!!! It just LOOKS and FEELS little!! It holds 6rds of 45ACP and due to the ergonomics of it I can shoot 185-230gr full-house defense loads no problem. I buy the MagTech stuff by the case and it doesn't hurt me. And I'm NOT a pistol shooter......My shooting wrist has been broken from a palm impact and my wrists are rawther limper than they once't was anyway because I gener'ly play more Boss than Cretin' these daze.

The gun just WORKS.

Now, does it hunt like my 220 did?? NOPE! The Beautiful One and Me'self used to have shoot offs on ground squirrels using my Sig 220 and her Kimber, both FINE accuracy pieces......it's really hard to put that away :( I can't hope to hit as many squirrels with the Glock.......but here's my story.


I'm an accuracy buff.

So I've until recently applied my rifle accuracy concepts to pistols......my "hunting pistols" started with a Taurus 44Mag, then a 629, then a Dan Wesson Pistol Pack Stainless VH hogleg, then I went shopping for "the Ultimate Hunting Handgun" and was actually making up a parts list for a tricked out S&W 500 when I reread "Hell I Was There" and realized that I was getting further and further from my goal of a carry gun. THIS monster weighs in at over 5LB and I was considering a scope! I've built 308's that weigh less.

So I dropped the whole thing. I changed gears ....... I put out the word and within about 6mo I found a 6" Anaconda. Now I've got to learn to shoot it :)

I finally came to "tool terms" with my hunting handgun. I've always been pretty tool-oriented re carry-guns BUT.... I've also been hung up on "accuracy".


Accuracy is relative.......


I had a friend (nephew) over here Sat that was in the market for a carry gun. He'd bought and sold three guns in less than a year and was thoroughly confusticated.... his latest acquisition had been a compensated and tricked out mini-1911 clone and he was quite happy with it until just a week ago he was up wheelin' and decided to shoot at a varmint from his jeep..... BIG MISTAKE!!! He found out that you just don't casually shoot a ported pistol without hearing protection. He realized that if he ever DID have reason to use this thing for protection he'd be DEAF from the first shot AND if it was a low-light situation he'd be retina-burned from the muzzle flash.......... In other words HE'D be incapacitated from his own weapon. He rethunk his parameters, sold the gun...... called me for ideas. When his tinnitus allowed.

He doesn't consider himself to be a good hand with a pistol.

He managed to put 3 of 5rds on the little spinner target at 18yds.

He's now shopping for a 36 :)

IT'S ACCURATE ENOUGH! In fact, I can shoot it as well as my Commander. Now, about the ultra-light 1911 stuff like the Defender I have no clue. I'll GUESS that they shoot like the light Glock. The 5 people that I've had shoot the little Glock have ALL hit rather well considering. A friend who shoots Schofields and tricked out Action Pistol and SASS stuff tried it (with distaste :D) and actually handed it back reluctantly..... ;) My experience with the ultra-light stuff started and stopped with that Scandium/Ti 44 mag that Smith sells.....the 329??? .... HOley HOppin' CATfish Bullwinkle that's a MAN'S gun! 'WAYYYY too much for me!


BTW, for those that find the 36 too small there are extended and formed mags I think. I've got very medium hands (I wear a size L glove) and find it just right. The big John Wayne handed pistolero types will find it annoyingly small, but for large guys concealing a full-size probably isn't a problem.


HOWEVER, I now find all the lumps and bumps and mechanical gizmo's on a 1911 to be annoying..... there's something about grab-and-squeeze that just gets under one's skin. I went to Gunsmithing School, Brownell's style, so of course I learned some about mod'ing 1911's....... my knowledge dates from the early 80's, olde-school. I've changed out and skeletonized parts, built custom grips, peened and fitted slides, barrels, etc. I could still probably melt one pretty good.... but I've just lost interest in tricking them except for looks. I've got two of them here that are untouched. They are fairly reliable if you understand them and they're 45ACP, other than that I'm not a fan except for sentimental reasons. I can't see myself carrying one around.

I think that THIS Glock will stay the course :)


opinionsby


al

alinwa
07-08-2008, 01:41 AM
rudedog,

I did go over and check out the youtube vids......I don't think they're meaningful. ANY very small and very light semi-auto must use at least some of your body weight to back them up for function. The only reason that an all steel pistol functions better when held in two fingers is because it's HEAVIER :) It uses its own mass (inertia) to counter the blowback moment and cycle the action.

Held anywhere close to normally I think you'll find yourself hard pressed to induce malfunction although like any semi you MAY have to try different ammo. I haven't had to. The 36 has digested 6 brands and some reloads from both my Sig buckets and Kimber stuff. ZERO failures.

I've induced failures in even semi auto rifles trying to rock-N-roll them, it's just a mass transfer thing. I can't see anyone being limp enough to stackpole a Glock in a situation.


And speaking of malfunction....... let's not get into dropping a 1911 into the muck :p Or making a long lasting reliable extractor....


BTW, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, I've got no stock in Glock......in fact I despised them for years as yuppie wannabe guns. I STILL hate the "bricks" and all the "Hi-Cap" garbage. But I'm a pragmatist. It's all I know to be.

perty soon I'll be branded as "mean" and "spiteful" for owning an opinion.... I can feel it brewing.

I'm not quite PC enough for this forum :)

al

davejones
07-08-2008, 04:42 AM
"And I DROPPED IT, from 6ft Ka-WAKKKK, right on the concrete floor!!!!"

seems unsafe to me, by the way - i think that you mean magazines, not clips.




Nice points made.


Now I'd like to expand upon my reasoning a little.

A story :)

I have a friend who rides bikes all over the mountains......wayyyyy out in the boonies on his pedal bike, also cross-country town-to-town. He's ridden across the US.

So anyways, this guy decides he wants to carry a defense gun so he goes to a police officer buddy with his situation and the guy recommends a common S&W design. (Actually the guy sold him "his old carry piece" for a fair price...) Welll..... he ends up with this sweet looking little 9mm and he feels fairly secure until one day he's riding down into a ratty looking "camp" about 10mi behind nowhere and this big dude steps out from behind a tree and blocks the trail.

My friend tensed right up.

He actually had to THINK about where his gun was.......it was in his fanny pack on his right side which was his front braking hand which was locking his bike down. Long story short the situation wound down when my friend's riding buddy hove into view, weighing in at 258lb..........

So later they're riding along together talking about "the gun situation" and they decided to actually TRY this stuff ;) They're still miles from nowhere and it's totally legal to shoot to your heart's content out here...... so they tried it.

#1- reach for the fanny -pack, can't find the zipper......cancel ONE
#2- reach for the fanny pack, zipper folds up and jams.......cancel TWO
#3- reach for the pack, (repositioned to the FRONT) with it jammed against one leg....got it OPEN, now WHERE'S THE BLOODY PISTOL???....rooting around to find it (remember, dude's riding a mountain bike down a trail here, a MOUNTAIN trail...granola and grapenuts are dribbling out marking his trail.....his camera is hanging on a string.....) gets it out, it's pointed at his nutsack with the hammer on top, COCKED....that's all he notices while he realizes that he's got the barrel in his hand..... CANCEL #3!!!!!


At this point he realizes that a stopped run-through is in order :rolleyes: so they pull over and he goes through all of the motions, gets it all ironed out.

They mount back up, he's in front cuz he's got the gun to fiddle with......

He gets it OUT safely this time and figures he'd better fire it at a stump as he's riding by......... bumpty-bumpty-twisty bumpty........ he aims at some stumps and then decides OK, here goes.....he starts sliding his thumb around and the clip falls out on the ground......cancel #4

So they stop and regroup. THIS time they both decide to fire a few. After some perusal they find the safety, the slide lock and the mag release. They move over and fire... BLAMMMM!!!!!! :eek:..... MANaLIVE!!! who'da' figgered a little 9MM pistol was so steenking LOUD!!!!! So they carefully set the gun down and stuff toilet paper in their ears, go back to pick it up.....is the safety ON or OFF??? point BLAMMM!!!

Yup it was OFF!

After a half hour of fiddling they've burned up their box of shells and are FAIRLY comfortable with the gun so dude unloads it into a pocket and figures he'll dry fire a few own the trail.......


Pull it out, safety off, click.......

It's all fairly smooth.

But what about LEFT-handed?

WHAT the???



You can't FIRE this thing left handed!!!



THIS is when he comes to me. "I need some lessons! I'm worse off WITH this thing than without it!"


WEElllllll'p I sez........"I think you've just got the wrong GUN." "Do you REALLY want to have to TRAIN to shoot this thing??"


So I get him over to the house, we walk into the safe and I show him a bunch of different options ending with my choice of a Glock 36......rack it open. show him the works and set it aside. We load up a couple clips (Holy COW!!! Those are BIG ROUNDS!!!)


Yup :)

I hand him a fanny pack and tell him to strap it on, bag in front. I show him how THIS bag has snaps and velcro so that you can INSTANTLY just rip your way in from any position and either hand and GRAB the gun. From an empty rear compartment.........no fumbling, just rip and grab.

"Now put the mag in the Glock."

OK

"Now rack the slide."

OK

"Now drop it in the pack."



"NO WAY!!!!!

I don't know how to WORK this thing!!!! I don't even know where the safety is!!!!"..........."Please take it AWAY and SHOW ME!!"








"Drop it in the pack".........



He showed extreme reluctance, holding the loaded 45ACP pointed high and into the ceiling of the room.......so I asked him to CAREFULLY hand it to me, high and wide......





And I DROPPED IT, from 6ft Ka-WAKKKK, right on the concrete floor!!!!







"please, drop it in your pack."


He did.









We walked over (he kinda' WADDLED actually trying not to inadvertantly shoot his belly off...) to a set of shooting benches and put on our hearing and eye protection......



"Take out the pistol and lay it on the bench".......

"Now pick it up, acquire the target and and squeeze"......

Blamm-CLANGGG!!!!! (spinning target...)

Holy COW!!!! NOW WHAT???






"put it away"......



"HOW??????"


"just put it back in the pack".......


WADDLE!!! -WADDLE!!!



So now I took him off the hook. I carefully relieved him of the pistol and demonstrated how this was a true double-action pistol.....there WAS NO SAFETY! Nor no decocking lever nor no extraneous protrusions nor no learning curve..........just GRAB IT with either hand and point and squeeze. If'n it don't shoot rack it over again and point and squeeze.....that's IT! There's NOTHING to check......no hammer, no safety, no NUTTIN'!!!


Just point and squeeze.


And when you're done, put it away.


AWESOME!!!!




Sooo..... On the subject of "other" choices. I don't see anyone answering any of my previous questions, defending their choices......




Mr D sez, "I love my 9mm Sig Sauer 226! No downside that I have found."

Well I'll tell you a downside Mr D. To UNDERSTAND this you'll probably have to go shoot the gun competitively or otherwise simulate a fire-fight situation. Unless you're able to think critically about it.....

You don't like to carry cocked and locked so you carry loaded but uncocked, round in the chamber. Now I useta' try to race a Sig 220 and I gotta' tell ya' you DO NOT try to engage from the uncocked condition!!!! I got the Sig because it's written up in the GlossMags as the Real Deal....the Cat's Meaow....the solid Choice Of Professional Magazine Article Writers Everywhere (except for a FEW articles like this one >> http://remtek.com/arms/sig/model/229/229.htm << ) where they mention that "it might be ugly" or "have some buttons in the wrong spot"....but "overall a winner".....


-------------------------


Here's me with a holstered Sig in my "comfortable carry" mode (just like yours Mr D :) I HATE "cocked and locked")

And next to me is my Loverly Wife with her Kimber 45ACP......


GO!!


My gun is fully prep'd and race-ready as is my Beauteous and Deadly Lover's EXCEPT that I've got a 12lb trigger pull for my first round! I've got only about 4lb thereafter but she's STARTING with a dressed out 1911 with a trigger that's 3lb of breaking glass...........


I'm HOSED.....


OVER and OVER I'm HOSED.......there is just NO freakin' WAY you can train for 12lb-4lb-4lb-4lb-4lb-4lb..... so I start shooting cocked and locked. (which is CHEATING BTW...)

She still waxes me straight but hey....I'm at least running :rolleyes:


I need help. Professional help. I call upon the pro's...... "Oh, it's easy....you just fire the first round into the air to cock the piece"..


:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: Now THAT'S about the stupidest method I've ever heard of!!!!


I lose the Sig.


I start shopping out autos........double action ONLY!!!
revolvers....
dressed 1911's.....
a comped out CZ in 32cal Full Race Dress.....

I realize I'm getting further and further from my goal of a practical carry pistol, I have a mental image of it but NOBODY MAKES IT!!!


And then Glock comes out with the 36....ahhhhhhhhhhh......search OVER!


Now PLEASE, somebody CONVINCE ME of a better choice! I'll have reason to purchase another toy......I've got an "Incentive Check" burning a hole in my wallet......


LOL


al


BTW, in my HOUSE there be shotguns.........I ain't ABOUT pistols in the house ;)

Several rooms have nice decorative 12-bores over the doors........ A pre-64 model 12 here, a 97 there.......Ohhhh Yeahhhhhh, there's COMFORT in a shottygun :)

Chuck Bogardus
07-08-2008, 01:11 PM
IMHO, when choosing a defensive weapon, one should completely clear one's mind. Start with no preference, and look at everything.

The handgun should -fit- you. Not too big, not too small.

It should -point- correctly, and naturally. Not going to get into the point shooting debate, but if you point your "finger" and you're already more or less on target, things work a lot better.

It should be something you can handle. A 5'3" 120 pound guy with a .44 magnum may be good for one shot...

FWIW, I had my heart set on getting a 5 shot j-frame lightweight smith when we got ccw in Missouri. Well, tried out a couple.

At seven yards, I essentially neuter a "bad guy" target with "point" shooting. That means that the j-frame doesn't fit. However, with a 1911A1 with the curved backstrap, they go where I'm -thinking-. It's just spooky.

alinwa
07-08-2008, 01:44 PM
davejones,

It seemed unsafe to him too...... :D

was it?

Are you a trained shooter? A pistol-smith? Tell me how it's unsafe. ABUSIVE to a handgun, yes........ unsafe??? Hey, I'm human and active.....I USE this stuff. Sometimes I drop my tools. Tell me how dropping a Glock may cause it to fire and I'll reconsider them as solid tools. I drop my cell phone all the time. I've been carrying a phone 24/7 since the mid eighties.....in that time I've learned which ones are tools and which ones are delicate instruments unsuited for usage around construction sites. When someone asks my opinion re a cell phone brand, model or service I have an answer, based on performance. I can say that In My Experience brand XX has been a superior product because........

This is a subsidiary of Benchrest Central, the premier factual site on the net. Traditionally, on THIS forum opinions should be backed by facts. Just "thinking" or "feeling" a certain way isn't validation here. I've found gardening sites which are less PC than certain whiners want this forum to be.

Look at the post count to see that this reputation is fading fast :( we've been overtaken by a bunch of feelies who're more interested in playing nice than in dissemination of truth. By a bunch of wannabe's who want their opinions to be "as meaningful as anybody elses"....

I'm ASKIN' YA'....... do you have any FACTS to back this up? Explain yourself. Can you show me how the transfer mechanism can be enabled by a mere 6' drop??? Which parts may fail to produce involuntary ignition?? If I can't throw a Glock against a wall or drop it from a speeding truck....... it's down the road. Unless they've radically redesigned the guts of this thing from back when it was developed, I should be able to systematically attack the pistol with a pall peen hammer and not be able to induce an accidental discharge.

Tell me where I need to hit it to make it fire.......IMO if you're right, the gun's unsafe.


al

alinwa
07-08-2008, 01:57 PM
BTW davejones..... I know the difference between strippers, clips, magazines and moons. I use the term clip because it's common usage, I find it pretentious to correct others unless the imprecise terminology is somehow confusing.

While teaching the children in my Hunter Ed classes I'm careful to use the term "magazine" while explaining to them that they'll commonly hear the term "clip". I also explain that "magazine" is an inclusive term which commonly describes items as diverse as powder storage facilities and fixed tubes. In many industries "magazine" has more to do with protection from elemental forces than anything. It ain't only about guns.


"Removable magazines" are commonly called "clips" today. And it's easier to type.

"Mag" also sounds pretentious in mixed company.

opinionsby



al

Paul Fielder
07-08-2008, 04:14 PM
....if you ever sell that gun, you going to tell them about your drop tests:-)

What kinda dinks did the concrete do to it?? I agree with you....maybe we should bring you up on charges of gun abuse:-)

My black lab knocked over my 682 onto the gravel last whitewing season trying to get to her water in a hurry. Wanted to cry until I picked it up and & couldn't tell which were her dinks and which were mine.

pf

degmon
07-08-2008, 08:47 PM
Usually a 4" alloy frame Kimber in .45. Other times a steel frame 3" .45. In the 3", the weight of the steel frame allows me to be more precise. In the larger frames, the alloy's wt. doesn't seem to effect my ability. The small frame is just too much for this old guy without the weight. I've carried several different size and barrel length revolvers, but find them difficult to conceal. I usually carry IWB with a tuckable holster from Tucker Gun Leather in Houston.

I also keep coming back to the extra rounds available in that magazine. Dang, if I need 1, I'd rather have 6 or 7 spares than 5.

My boudoir gun is an old S&W .44 Military Triple Lock......sounds sexy, don't it. It's job is to get me safely to the 12 gauge.

Someone mentioned Elmer Keith.....Ol Elmer believed that big bullets let the air out of em faster. For sidearms, my bigger is better limit stops at .45.

Ammo? I've reloaded and cast for years. Shoot lots of cast bullets. Love them in the Lyman Alloy... just hard enough not to lead. Carry rounds are all store bought, usually Gold Dots.....and they are replaced annually.

Al, I just have to run over to the gun shop and try on a 36. I've shot a variety of Glocks, hate the look, but they work. Like that annoying rabbit on tv. Of course I was dead set against rifle stocks made from anything except good, figured wood, too. Well, after years I caved in, even before I got this thing called a glue-in, in a caliber Wal-Mart can't get ammunition for that shoots like a house-a-fire. (Now, those damn flags.... well that's a different story).

This is an answer to "What do you do?" And that's it.

p.s. Local gunshop teaches concealed carry classes. For qualification, the shop requires all students to use the shop furnished Glocks, and the shop furnished ammunition. This is primarily for simplifying instruction, and for consistency and safety. After several years, and lots of dufus students, the Glock record is exemplary. Lots of abuse and misuse by dufuses, but they keep on truckin.
I don't own a Glock,,,,,,,,yet.

Dennis

alinwa
07-08-2008, 10:24 PM
Glen Chism,

"Remember; If you have to use deadly force,make damn sure that the threat is completely dead."

RIGHT ON man!!

This is serious stuff. I know 6 people who've had to take lives here in civilian America. They've all had trouble dealing with the concept, some more than others. It's really no "worse" I guess than accidentally hurting or killing someone but it's SERIOUS nonetheless.......I chuckled at this quote by Jackie Schmidt > "I am well aware that this is a deadly weapon, with a "Capitol D". < well, YEAHHHH?? We're talking about DEAD here!! (but could you IMAGINE those gaping maws coming thru a dark doorway at'cha??? The Biblical phrase is, "and his bowels turned to water".........)

Paul Fielder,

Ya' know what?? I don't see it coming up :) If the gun's BROKE then it'll have to be fixed, other than that it's just wear. And this gun didn't get so much as a mark on it.. I kinda' held it flat and dropped it, I was palming it and I just opened my hand.......I didn't want to chip the tritium that I'd paid a hunnerd dollars exter for.

I learned long ago with bikes and boats and tools of all sorts that they're gonna' get USED!! I bought my Suburban brand new.....special order 3/4ton, mostrous 500CI motor, limited slip, tow package w/levelers, skid plates blah-blah-blahh....... It was a week old when we heard this weird noise and stepped out the door to see a little kid hurling 3"-5" boulders up on the hood! I mean there's DENTS clear thru the paint! The kid was like 1yr-old......he had his back to the truck and was leaning over in my driveway and two-handing these hunks of base-rock over his head and listening for the cool noise............. And NO, nobody paid to get it fixed. Not even the insurance company. The dents are still there. Two weeks later the truck was towing a 24ft trailer into a mountain camping spot and got end-to-end scratches in the paint....... My point is, I didn't buy it to set in my garage to take out and wash on a Saturday! I've NEVER washed it, although I've paid the kids to scrub it a couple times and we do bring it through a carwash several times a year......like Christmas and Easter Sunday (OOOPS! MORE Christian stuff!!) If it was one'a them jacked up F350's that cruise the strip every nite it probably WOULD get washed every other day, but the only time we're ever sharing turf is when I'm called to pull one of them out because they made the mistake of getting off the asphalt...


And as far as testing tools, my method is to test them in the privacy of a controlled environment before I'm staking my job on them, then to go out and USE THEM! My tools WILL get tested to destruction, in the end the winners are those which destruct slower. I get such a kick out of the speculators and wannabe's......... you can't miss 'em :)

"Well I heard"

and "but I read on the internet"....

"Well, I think that if my Mauser had a custom barrel and YOUR scope I could shoot just like your fancy-pantsy Kelbly-built Panda..."

It's like the difference between reading books by Clive Cussler versus Richard Marcinko "The Rogue Warrior"........ I don't care WHAT you think of Marcinko, you will recognize his sincerity and actual experience ..... IF you've been an operator of some sort.


I remember when we first started elk hunting, REALLY elk hunting as opposed to day trips within 2-3mi of the road. We were 7mi in with an elk on the ground and it was getting late.....BUT.....we all had "survival packs". We all had granola and candy bars and instant oatmeal for a week and MOST IMPORTANTLY we all had "Space Blankets", we were SET. Some of us had Rambo knives.....

The plan was to just bivouac up for the night......get a good rest and then a leisurely pack out in the bright-and-early morn. Sin'ging undt laffing like Jollie Voyageurs........


NOW, any of you who've actually DONE this know the rest of the story :D :D:D

Over the next ten years we learned enough to be staying out for as long as two weeks and ranging hundreds of miles......... and we learned why it's OK for Burly Steenky White Anglo Guys (BS WAGs) to kiss their lukewarm Mountain Dew reverently when they straggle back to the truck.....

degmon,

DO IT mon :) checki'dout, tell me Glock din't FINALLY make a real user, something that doesn't feel like a lego project.


al

RayfromTX
07-08-2008, 11:41 PM
I have a glock 17 in 9mm but that is no carry gun. Yesterday I bought a Sig p232 in 380. I guess I'm the odd man out here thinkin' that the li'l ole 90 grain hp would hurt anyone. This thing seems just the right size to me. Not too big, not too small. Just right. Goldilocks would be so happy.

I've fired and owned a few pistols in my life but never owned a carry pistol. After reading this thread, I googled the glock 36 and read about happy customers and angry customers and failures and recalls. Shrug...

I googled the p232 and found lot's of happy campers but I'm sure I can find the other kind if I keep looking. I never liked shooting my 357 and 45s turn me off. I decided manageable and well made would keep me happy. I'm happy with my purchase and shot 50 rounds in the back yard this evening and it shoots as well as it feels in my hand.

These discussions about extra mags and reloading time and gunfights seem a little odd to me when discussing a carry gun. If I'm going to a gunfight I guess I'd better be a great shot. That's more likely if I carry a pistol I don't mind firing a few thousand rounds through.

If I'm wrong, you can read about me in the papers. That seems unlikely. As risks go, I've taken more than I can count. Only carrying 7- 90 grain rounds on my person doesn't seem like a big walk on the edge.

alinwa
07-09-2008, 12:13 AM
hmmmm

RayfromTX that's something I've never done :o I just "knew" the Glocks and pre-ordered a 36 as soon as I heard that they were coming available to civilians. I've never owned nor wanted any other Glock.

So I Googled and Yahoo'd it.... I was pleasantly surprised. I've been fairly well surrounded by shooting chaff since about 1978 and have a pretty solid grasp of the amount of "Glock Resentment" out there. It's whole bunches worse than the "problem" of the "PPC being a communist cartridge"........ As I said, I was pleasantly surprised :)

I'd invite others to do the same. Let'cher fingers do the walkin'....


al

davejones
07-09-2008, 03:00 AM
al,
these are the first two gun safety rules espoused by Jeff Cooper:

All guns are always loaded. Even if they are not, treat them as if they are.

Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.

"""This is a subsidiary of Benchrest Central, the premier factual site on the net. Traditionally, on THIS forum opinions should be backed by facts. Just "thinking" or "feeling" a certain way isn't validation here. I've found gardening sites which are less PC than certain whiners want this forum to be."""

i just quoted Cooper above, per your earlier statement from post number 13 below:

"""On THIS forum Jeff Coopers opinion is more meaningful than Bubba Gumps."""

""""Removable magazines" are commonly called "clips" today."""
firearms are also called gats and the police are called five-0.

"""Tell me where I need to hit it to make it fire.......IMO if you're right, the gun's unsafe."""

i never said that the gun's unsafe.

"""While teaching the children in my Hunter Ed classes...."""

do you teach firearm safety? i don't understand how you're not getting the point. perhaps we should just agree to disagree.

later,
davejones

alinwa
07-09-2008, 04:53 AM
davejones,

We don't have to "agree to disagree".........you're right.

I stand corrected.

Dropping the loaded firearm WAS "safe" in the sense that it was NOT going to fire........ but it was poor behavior with a firearm. Even if I WERE to do it again, in the privacy of my own home and to make the same point I should NOT throw it out for general consumption. It was poor form to post such an incident on the net just to make the point that a Glock DOES pass all drop and impact tests, that it CANNOT fire without manipulation.

Yes I do teach Hunter Ed and I'm anal about safety, but I also teach that the only real safety is in your head...... different situations, different measures. Rules, all rules, are only as good as the user AND the situation. At a BR match people walk around "covering" each other with gun muzzles all the time, the rifles are inerted by removal of the bolt. This doesn't invalidate Cooper's rule, it's just a different circumstance. By the same token I've spent years in classroom and gunshop, a working environment. Cooper's rules don't apply to guns in vises, guns on benches, guns being carried around by multiple people in a working environment.

I'll even give you the "magazine" vs "clip"....again, you're right. :)

I'll be more careful in the future, good points and taken.

al-chastised-N-chagrined-inwa

adamsgt
07-12-2008, 04:38 PM
Took my Colt Defender to the Fort Worth gun show today to do a side by side comparison with the Glock 36. The Colt just feels so much better in my hand than the Glock. No discernible difference in weight or size and the Colt just seems to snuggle into my hand. However the Colt is single action and has to be carried cocked and locked or loaded and cock before firing. The Glock is definitely ahead there. I may buy a 36 but I won't sell the Colt.

alinwa
07-12-2008, 10:17 PM
"I may buy a 36 but I won't sell the Colt."

MY kinda' MAN!!! :D


LOL


al

Crusader
08-10-2008, 07:16 PM
Age Old Question- Revolver or Pistol?
If you have to ask yourself this question then there is only one answer. -Revolver

At the distance most "gun fights" take place at, IE.. in the neighborhood of 15 ft or less if im not mistaken, honestly, I would be happy with a good knife. However, as the saying goes, "dont bring a knife to a gun fight".

I don't carry a concealed weapon(took the required classes, filled out the paper work, never sent it in), but if I did, on a day-in day-out, I would highly consider one of those "American Arms" Mini Revolvers in 22 mag. Why? because its actually small enought that I can comfortably and easily carry it as a concealed weapon, and while it may not be a ideal weapon in a gun fight, it would be better than the 1911 that is at home because it is to big and bulky that you cant comfortably carry concealed, any way.


Note: Most the time, I have not really felt the need to carry a piece, as I suppose the majority of people. That being the case, size and easy of concealing would make a HUGE difference on whether you actually made it out the front door with a weapon. No matter how good the gun, its no good if you need it and its not with you. For about a year or so, I was actually in a situation that my risk factors were high enough that I was seriously considering carrying a concealed weapon, but if I had, and it was found out that I was carrying, I would have absolutely lost my job.


Remember, the purpose of a handgun in a gun fight is to allow you to fight your way to your primary weapon... IE your Rifle or Shotgun.

What rifle or shotgun? Personally, I would grab a rifle... probably, of all things, a Ruger Mini 14.. Ive never had a failure to function with mine, its size and shape, and weight is perfect,and even though its not noted for its high accuracy, mine is plenty accurate for typical defense situations ( I would guess 50 yards max). It has less recoil then a shotgun, but I guess its more dangerous to innocent bystanders then the shotgun.

Now, what would I grab if I KNEW I was going to be in a gun fight? That is a different question all together!!!!!

dlay
08-10-2008, 08:20 PM
If you are going to carry a handgun, carry something that is small and doesnt bother you and you get used to it and dont even pay any attention to it. It may be nothing but a 25 auto, but if it is easy carried, you will carry it. A big bulky heavy pistol will be left at home most of the time. This is my experience.

degmon
08-10-2008, 09:04 PM
Size matters.....nothing esoteric intended. If you decide to carry a small caliber, file the front sight smooth.... then, if you have it taken away by your "target", it won't hurt near as bad when it gets shoved up ur a**.

If you are not ready to play for keeps, buy some Nikes.

Dennis

speedpro
08-11-2008, 01:07 AM
approaches depending on what's deemed as being in vogue at the time. I have been caught unarmed by as many as 5 in secluded area's of my home town 2 0f the 5 had 45's loaded with hardball I know this because I dug the slug's out of my trunk and seat material after having my window's blown out. :eek:
Now they are showing up in the public transportation stations in groups of 40 and 50 demanding $100.00 bill's from rider's or they threaten to physically assult them if they don't pay-up, no "cowboy gun's" here, reliable semi-auto's only, as many loaded clips as you can carry just to go to the ball game or shopping mall..... :confused: I go cocked and locked as I have for the last 20yrs., i was only worried about that style of carry when I had no holster and had it pointing toward's my privates and my thigh as there are some major arterys in the thigh and you'll surely bleedout fast. I feel much safer in the cocked & locked carry mode today because of the fine selection of holsters availiable which are designed much better than the holsters from the past.

BUSHMASTER1
08-11-2008, 11:05 AM
The 1911 was DESIGNED to be carried "cocked and locked". It is the only safe way to carry the gun with a round in chamber. If you want to assure a accidental discharge, carry it with the hammer down on a round. The chance of the hammer slipping while trying to lower the hammer is also dangerous. Cycle the action, apply the safety. It's no different than all the "cocked and locked" m700's and 870s at deer camps around the country.

Dennis Sorensen
08-11-2008, 11:26 AM
I have both revolvers and pistols, however I still fight with myself on what sidearm to carry. High power 5 shot revolver or multiple shot pistol. Any input would be appreciated.

First of all, ask yourself when it the last time I was in a gunfight...

It doesn't happen often so you will be carrying it a lot more than using it..

Out of the revolver or pistol, there is no doubt in my mind a pistol carries easier in a number of places on your body.

My preference would be a Walther PP in .380 Auto or a pistol of similar configuration. Very flat and a long enough barrel and powerful enough in an emergency. I know one fellow who wore one concealed for 40 years... it deformed his body slightly where it was carried.

I don't think a "knock down" power cartridge is as important as how easy it is to carry and to shoot...


.

alinwa
08-11-2008, 08:35 PM
BUSHMASTER1,

You've got to be kidding! Are you telling me that you know hunters who keep their guns loaded in camp?

I've got "Da' 2nd Week Of Deer Camp" on CD along wit' all da' udder Yooper stuff but dat's a JOKE man! If I EVER was invited to such a "camp" I'd walk out of the woods.

Nope...... carry and concealed carry fit into their own little niche, it ain't like hunting.

Now for all's of you'se who think carrying a popgun like a .25 or even a .380 "because you'll carry it more than you'll ever use it"....... LEAVE THE GUN AT HOME!!! For cryin' out loud WHY carry just for the sake of carrying? IF, on the other hand, you're one of those who might USE a firearm for self defense, please consider carrying a tool that'll actually get the job done :)


"First of all, ask yourself when it the last time I was in a gunfight..."


C'MON Dennis!!! Why would anyone in your position consider carrying?

Regarding the knockdown power "not being everything"........ I think it IS everything! IF for some strange reason I find myself in a situation where someone seriously wants me, enough that I have to KILL HIM????? Then I want something that will KILL HIM if it hits him in the toe ....... I'll be completely freaked, wired. The dude coming will HAVE to be fairly brutal else't WHY would I be shooting him???


Here's the deal,


Dude's coming AFTER YOU!!!

You're assaulting him with DEADLY FORCE!!!

WHY on earth would you want to just bitch-slap him a little with a toy gun?



I know a fellow who got mugged down in the Wakefield section of Boston.... He had a .380 pistol. He stuck it in the guys gut and shot him, plup, the guy grunted and loosened up enough that he was able to break away and outrun him. When he looked back the guy was standing and holding his gut. He ran away. He never went back to the area again. He has no idea if the guy lived or died. No moral here, just that he has no idea.


I still say that the Glock 36 is just the Cat's Meaow...... it carries like a toy gun but it's for real. It will pick the bad guy UP, carry him AWAY and deposit him in a huddled clump of blood and pain.....whereupon he will summarily expire.



This means he will be DEAD .........



Can there possibly be ANY OTHER reason to carry a handgun in public?

This is not a video game.

al

Paul Fielder
08-11-2008, 09:37 PM
He was right about the design of the 1911.....I would not carry it any other way.

Listen to AL, carry something that starts w/a 4.

I have also shot a 700 6mm 100gr through a floor board too!!!

REALLY Loud inside a 67 Blazer!!

Stupid gloves / finger IN the trigger guard checking the safety(remember, it HAD to be on fire to lift bolt??).....bullet scraped by my Justin's and shot out the tire!! I still have nightmares!!

No long gun @ camp has a bullet in chamer till ready to kill.

pf

<><

Dennis Sorensen
08-11-2008, 10:21 PM
Before I get too beat up by Al I will say my posting didn't say all I meant to say...

I think if you carry a .380 all the time because it is comfortable and you can use it, over not carrying a larger pistol all the time, because it is uncomfortable... the .380 is a better choice for you... it will be with you when you need it.

I did carry for a few years in Washington but that license has expired and Washington changed the policy for Canadians and will not renew it.

One can not carry concealed in Canada.

As to your story... I know a fellow who got mugged down in the Wakefield section of Boston.... He had a .380 pistol. He stuck it in the guys gut and shot him, plup, the guy grunted and loosened up enough that he was able to break away and outrun him. When he looked back the guy was standing and holding his gut. He ran away. He never went back to the area again. He has no idea if the guy lived or died. No moral here, just that he has no idea.

Why did he quit at one shot? And after the gut shot why not a couple more in the chest and then run...?

Obviously his carrying a .380 was better than not carrying...

alinwa
08-11-2008, 10:37 PM
Thanx Dennis....... :D

As to "why din't the guy keep firing?" ........ welll, as I said, no moral to this story, just that the gun wasn't very effectual.

As to "obviously his carrying a .380 was better than not carrying"........ welll, IMO he maybe wouldn't have gotten into the situation if he hadn't had the false bravado given him by the pistol. Really this is another issue....... I have issues with folks who carry just to carry........ The guy IN THIS INSTANCE was exploring an area of town where he shouldn't have been. He and his buddy were actively looking for thrills and the pistol gave them a false sense of security. I fully realize that this is in no way relevant to our discussion.



In the circumstance that you outline here... "I think if you carry a .380 all the time because it is comfortable and you can use it, over not carrying a larger pistol all the time, because it is uncomfortable... the .380 is a better choice for you... it will be with you when you need it." ....... I have to reluctantly agree ;) IT IS BETTER THAN NOTHING!



barely :D:D:D:D:D:D


LOL


al

kansasvet
08-11-2008, 10:52 PM
While in the Navy and waiting transfer I had a roommate that had just returned from Vietnam. He was a Navy Corpsman assigned to a Marine detachment in I Corp, that is until he took a .45 slug in the right side of his chest.

He was quite impressed by the performance of the round on his body, he stated that he was just walking along and the next thing he knew he was flat on his back on the ground trying to stop the blood coming from his chest by using compression with his left hand. The bullet did not exit and they really butchered him getting it out, couldn't lift much with his right arm after that.

No purple heart, a marine had accidentally discharged his .45

I prefer a .45 1911 for carry but during hot weather carry something smaller, the .45 is always in my vehicle though.

alinwa
08-11-2008, 11:18 PM
See now, THERE'S the difference between a working gunner and a poseur.........


"He was quite impressed by the performance of the round on his body,"


:D:D



And I didn't miss the uncapped 'marine' here ..... "No purple heart, a marine had accidentally discharged his .45" ......... :)

(From a proud dad whose son just volunteered for Force Recon :) )


al

Greg Culpepper
08-11-2008, 11:24 PM
Al,

As you and others have pointed out, a 32 or 380 Keltec is a nice thing to have if you can't carry a gun. I like a 36 also but would prefer a true single stack 45 with a full five inch barrel with all the other Glock design features if they ever offer one. One thing I like about all Glocks is the don't rust when you carry them Mexican in the summer and that finish on the slide is so tough that they don't get skinned up when you give them the drop test (happens sometimes).Tritium sights help you find it in the dark when its not already in your belt or hand. Kind of a night light for pistol acquisition when something goes thump.

Greg

speedpro
08-12-2008, 04:09 AM
The 1911 was DESIGNED to be carried "cocked and locked". It is the only safe way to carry the gun with a round in chamber. If you want to assure a accidental discharge, carry it with the hammer down on a round. The chance of the hammer slipping while trying to lower the hammer is also dangerous. Cycle the action, apply the safety. It's no different than all the "cocked and locked" m700's and 870s at deer camps around the country.

Those type of "deer camps" , where the hunters enter camp with loaded chambers don't still exixt do they???? Last time I was in a camp like that cocaine and Jack Black was abundant, along with all the idiot's that participated I promptly chose to hunt a couple hundred miles south of there.

Had to settle for smaller deer but it was safer in the long run !

BUSHMASTER1
08-12-2008, 08:11 AM
Of course they don't exist, there are no idiots left in america! The safety on a glock is overridden by pulling the trigger:eek:, but the external hammer of the 1911 scares people:confused:.

RayfromTX
08-12-2008, 08:13 AM
When I was growing up we had the same deer lease for 17 years. The rule was simple. When you entered the property, all guns were loaded before you pulled away from the gate. They were unloaded just prior to exiting the gate. All rifles were kept in one location for convenience. No one was ever shot with an unloaded gun. The only time a gun was ever unloaded was the one time that it was agreed that Carl had had to much to drink. When he saw a deer later, on the stand, and his gun went click he was upset but he was clearly too drunk to safely handle a firearm.

All the by God statements here about the only safe way to handle guns in a hunting camp are rather telling of peoples self righteousness. Make a rule. Don't waver from it. Know who you hunt with. Be safe. Done.

BUSHMASTER1
08-12-2008, 08:25 AM
Absolutely!

alinwa
08-12-2008, 11:34 AM
Of course they don't exist, there are no idiots left in america! The safety on a glock is overridden by pulling the trigger:eek:, but the external hammer of the 1911 scares people:confused:.


There are just SOOO many things wrong here :confused:


In your prior post you didn't refer to them as "idiots", you used them to illustrate safe, normal behaviour..... or are the millions carrying cocked and locked also "idiots"?

And "over-riding the safety on the Glock by pulling the trigger" is unsafe relevant to carrying cocked and locked HOW???

And "scaring people" by wearing cocked is WHAT???



The SAFETY difference between a cocked and locked 1911 and a Glock is enormous FYI........... if you can't understand this then you need to find out that the Glock isn't even fully cocked when you pull the trigger. The Glock at rest is "more like" a transfer-barred double-action revolver with the hammer down......the 1911 isn't even in the same room as far a safety.

And yes, the cocked and locked 1911 IS just like the cocked deer rifle in deer camp in the sense that you've described, except that the 1911 is "acceptable" because it's being carried by a trained professional.


odd way to make your points :confused:


al

BUSHMASTER1
08-12-2008, 02:11 PM
Just trying to illustrate how many guns are cocked and the safety on. You illustrate how safe the glock system is by dropping it on concrete with someone else in the room. I'll learn gun safety somewhere else. Flame on Al, I'm not gonna argue.

Zebra13
08-12-2008, 04:21 PM
Gentlemen,

I mine as well join the fray...I've carried a gun literally every day for the past 18+ years whilst on the job, and off. And I've had occassion to see a few people who have been actually shot. So I have some opinions.

We all get caught up in the caliber debate...waxing poetic about the virtues of this caliber, and damning another, when, just as in hunting big game, bullet construction and shot placement are the most critical issues. The last three oxygen impaired via gun play individuals I've seen got that way courtesy of the lowly 22 rimfire, the anemic .25 ACP, and the much maligned 9mm. The common denominator in all three of these incidents besides "woefully underpowered" rounds, was excellent shot placement. The above trio ceased to exist most ricky tick despite the underpowered status of the calibers used. So...WHATEVER you choose to tote, pick a good bullet and be good with with the gun...real good.

Revolver vs Auto? They both have advantages and disadvantages, so pick the one you are comfortable with and can shoot. I can tell you, I've NEVER had a revolver not go bang, or malfunction. All my auto's, with the exception of a Beretta 92FS 9MM, have had malfunctions. I could not make that gun jam...despite intentionally neglecting cleaning, lube, etc. I eventually got bored trying to make it malfunction and cleaned it. Phenomenal gun...and I sold it...because I'm an idiot. The DA/SA guns (Beretta 92, Sig 226, etc), or whateverthehell Al called them, while probably not ideal, can be shot quickly and accurately...but you have to train to do it. I carry both autos and revolvers...a Glock 21 .45 ACP on duty, a H&K P7M8 9MM in my current plainclothes assignment, and a S&W 340SC .357 Mangleum off duty. I carry the Glock because I'm not worried about concealing it, it makes a big hole, and I can shoot it. The H&K because it's flat, easy to conceal, a great gun, and I can shoot it. And the Smith because it's REAL light, easy to conceal, and I can shoot it. However, I don't carry .357's in it...38+P's for me, thank you. I shot one cylinder full (5) of .357's in it and it was one of the singular most unpleasant gun experiences in my life. Mind you, I have a Freedom Arms 454 that I love to shoot, so I'm not exactly recoil shy, but that little gun was brutal. It is manageable with .38's, though.

Pick something your going to carry. That sounds absurdly obvious, but carrying a gun can be a pain in the arse. If you choose a hog-leg-boat-anchor, eventually you will tire of it and start leaving it at home. And that defies the first rule of gunfighting, which is to have a gun.

This safety, that safety, thumb safety, grip safety, free safety, add nauseam. The ultimate safety? The shooter...specifically the index finger on his/her shooting hand. If a certain type of safety makes you feel warm and fuzzy, rock on! I don't personally worry about my gun "just going off" while in my holster, nightstand, dropped from a plane, thrown around the garage, etc. I do know they go off when I press the trigger.

For you shotguns types out there, they are extremely effective, I agree. And NOTHING puckers butts and instills fear like the racking of a pumpgun. But, they are somewhat non-directional, i.e., they can throw a big pattern, and that's quite a few .32 or so caliber pellets travelling down range...and you OWN every last one of them. So be aware of it, your surroundings, and your backstop. Fortunately, I've seen advances in the "combat" shotgun of late, with advancements in chokes, tighter patterns, better rounds, etc., that minimize this problem to an extent.

Do NOT carry handloads in a carry gun! If you flip somebody's switch with a handload, and WHEN, not if, the civil attorney finds out about it, their going to be on you like white on rice, and make you look REAL bad!

Somebody mentioned "running away" as your first defense...and it was good advice. If you can, and you or nobody else will get hurt as result, unass the area, call the cops and be a good witness. We get paid to deal with deadly force situations, trained to deal with it, there's usually quite a few of us that show up, and have the resources ($$$) to deal with the ramifications of a deadly force incident. I'm not saying were all perfect, are better shots than you, are all that and a bag of chips, etc., but that is what we do. However, there are times you gotta fight, so be proficient with whatever gun you choose, fight smart and fight hard.

Now if you'll excuse me, I want to go look at a Glock 36. Al has piqued my curiosity in regards to the 36 and it's possibilities for plainclothes use. While I love my P7, if your gonna make a hole, make a big hole!

Justin

speedpro
08-12-2008, 08:55 PM
Gotta love that post ! Good advice ! ;)

Mr. D
08-13-2008, 12:14 AM
Justin,

Great post!

One thought, wheel guns may be better for the person who shoots very little and not much into shooting sports. The obvious design of a double action revolver avoids accidental firing and jams due to lack of experience. A simple operation creates confidence in the person who does not shoot regularly. My wife can shoot my automatics just fine, but prefers a S&W Chief Special under her pillow!

alinwa
08-13-2008, 12:21 AM
Great, informative post Justin.

I can't agree with you about "shot placement" though when talking about carryguns for us mortals. Hunting yes, defense no. I've never been there for real and never expect to be but based on my stress-skills with a handgun the only one I'd be comfortable with is The .410 Judge, which doesn't lend itself to concealed carry ;). IME "placement" in a rush situation is chancy, in fact when circumstances are slow enough for placement maybe it's not an out-of-control situation. Or at least it'll be hard to replay it as out of control..... The last guy that I heard of was a local case. He came home to find a guy ravaging his wife and daughter. He got his handgun out and ordered the guy down. The badguy was a total freak, he kept taunting the home owner, twitching up and down and worked his way over to his pants. The guy stuck his hand on or in the pants pocket and started to get up, the homeowner shot him right between the eyes........ and went to jail. He got out in a month or so but the REASON that he went down is because he couldn't convince the jury that he hadn't just executed the perpetrator. He'd have been better off to just shoot the guy to doll rags. I don't know what he was shooting.


I suck with a handgun, I need every advantage.

I love me a .45.....Big holes and slow bullets......DUMP that load.




About that little .357 :D We shot some really hot hog-killer reloads thru my wife's .357 Ladysmith.......loads I'd worked up for my 686.


OOUCHH!!!!!!! They actually made our palms red and bruised, Hogue grips gloves and all.


BTW I hope you get a chance to actually shoot a 36. I'm comfortable with full-house 185 and 240 self defense loads. Factory of course, although I stuffed a few hundred of our racegun loads thru it without a hitch.


Again, Great Post..... good to hear from an operator. :)


al

Mr. D
08-13-2008, 05:21 AM
I knew a gun shop owner that took two 25 autos bullets in the chest and still downed the guy with a 380 auto. He then went out and sat on the curb and waited for the ambulance. In my limited opinion, anything less than a 380 auto may kill a bad guy eventually, but not stop him before he kills you! Stopping power is an issue.

cwood3
08-13-2008, 07:23 AM
I think Justin summed it up very accurately. Made me think. Thanks for taking the time to post that Justin.

CW

Zebra13
08-13-2008, 01:16 PM
Gentlemen,

Thank you for your kind comments. If something I said keeps you or a loved one safe, and out of harms way, either physically or legally, it is well worth the time and effort to type up a post.

Mr. D makes a good point about the revolver, which is ease of manipulation. I don't know how many times I've been in a gun shop and seen a person ask to see a semi-auto that was on display, and then stare blankly at it for period of time, before starting to push buttons, flip levers, etc., trying to figure out how the thing works. Revolvers are pretty simple...point, shoot. You can make a person dangerous with a revolver in about a minute, and revolver are all pretty much the same. Semi-autos? Some have buttons, some have levers, some have decockers, some have blah, blah, blah. If your going to carry an auto, make sure your intimately familiar with it.

Al. I hope I didn't give the impression that by my emphasis on shot placement, I want you dragging out the Farley rest, thinking about your breathing, and trying to shoot out the lower left quadrant of bad guy's pupil. I'm not. But you CAN shoot fast and accurately, and place your shots. But you got to train to do it! And if we're taking on the responsibility of carrying a gun, to save our own precious carcass, we should probably be pretty good with it. Think about all the pains people like you and I go through when chambering a barrel....dialing in the bore to the last .0001....making it as good as we possibly can. Fussing over the crown...live pilot reamers. If we go to all the trouble to make a gun that can shoot little bitty groups on a piece of paper, why wouldn't one go to the same lengths to make sure he is proficient with a gun that he may stake his life on? You gotta train it! You would be surprised how fast and accurate one can shoot a handgun if you work at it...and I've always thought that it was kinda fun work! Shooting fast, inaccurately, in my mind, accomplishes nothing but waste time. A flesh wound, is a flesh wound, whether it be with a .22 or a .45. You cannot shoot fast enough to make up for a miss.

Some thoughts on training and shooting a handgun. Some are cliche, none are mine originally, but they all hold true.

Aim small, miss small. (Mel Gibson in "The Patriot")

Slow is smooth, and smooth is fast. (Clint Smith, Thunder Ranch)

You fight like you train. (?)

In a critical incident, you don't rise to the occassion, you sink to the level of your training. (?)

I'm sorry to hear of the hassle your friend went through, Al. Like the incident wasn't traumatic enough, he then has to deal with a bunch of clueless jurors who weren't there, and have watched to much TV. (No...we don't routinely shoot guns out of peoples hands). We are trained to shoot center chest first...if that option is available, and if that doesn't "stop" bad guy, then we go to the head. The chest is a bigger target, and less mobile than the head. But I believe perception has alot to do with it, too. They don't want the perception, as your friend now knows, that cops are executing people with first shot head shots...because they usually are fatal. It's not right thinking, but it is what it is....

Justin