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Mr. D
07-04-2008, 11:12 AM
How many here even try to look at issues in an objective, unbiased way? Of course none of us including myself are free of bias, but some seem to treat every subject as rooting for your favorite professional wrestler! It's about making nasty biased remarks and ridiculous attacks on the other side rather than trying to learn both sides of the issue. The other side is the enemy and you stand for truth, liberty and the American way like Superman! Is it impossible for some to consider that both Obama and McCain may be good men that simply have a different reality as to what is the best path for America?

Does everything have to be an angry, simplistic battle between good and evil? Why do so many Americans think so simplistically with such angry judgments? Could it be that is what we have been taught by our............................

Bill Wynne
07-04-2008, 11:50 AM
I like to think of myself as fair and objective. I recognize that the differences between the two parties is beyond reason or they would be much closer in their ideas.

I do believe that some political parties and candidates will say things that cannot be rectified with reason. I think that Obama and the Democrats are further from the ideas that made this country great and will pull us through in the long run than McCain and the Republicans.

I hope that I can recognize it when and if Obama expresses good ideas.

Concho Bill

koginam
07-04-2008, 12:38 PM
When their is such a difference in the candidates and at a time like this we need a strong leader with experience, while both candidates are not my first pick McCain is the one with the experience.
I was raised a Democrat and voted democrat up to and including Carter, but that is where it ended, the liberals took over the party and they have not had a good reliable, honest, intelligent candidate since.
Obama will down size the military, allow liberal immigration, raise taxes, increase entitlements, grow government, increase restrictions on the 2nd amendment, put liberals in the supreme court, etc...
Yes I feel strongly about those things, myself and many others spilled our blood for this country and don't want to see it get weaker, and poorer, with less rights for its citizens.
Excuse me for feeling strongly about something as important as who will led our nation, make decisions on my families security, and livelihood.

rudedog
07-04-2008, 01:02 PM
About how you feel about either candidate.I'm not a Dem OR Rep.I'm looking for the best person to run our country.So far, all I see is people I really don't care for, and nobody wants to try a third party,because it will hurt the least of the two bad candidates,and the other bad choice will win.
I know that it's to late for this election,but we really need to think outside the box next election,or we'll be stuck with two more guys who owe themselves to lobbyist who don't have a care in the world about we the people.
As far as skin color goes,I didn't ever think i would here myself say this,but anymore I don't really care,as long as the candidate is honest and cares about the people,it could be Fat Albert or Big Bird for that matter.

Rudy Manuel

vicvanb
07-04-2008, 01:02 PM
Why do so many Americans think so simplistically with such angry judgments? Could it be that is what we have been taught by our............................

Many have listened to too much right-wing talk radio. Nationally, Limbaugh, Liddy, Savage, Hannity, Beck and 5 or 6 others all promote simplistic, angry judgments and claim opposing views are stupid--or worse. Locally, there are hundreds of of other conservative radio hosts who spout the same rhetoric.

That stuff really resonates with those who are already mad as hell about how things are going and want to villify the "enemy."

To this crowd, it's OK to be nasty and rude. In fact, they love it and cheer when the radio hosts amp it up.

rudedog
07-04-2008, 01:28 PM
they know for sure what one candidate will do and the other won't, that is a clear indication of bias and not objectivity. If one is going to lay "intelligence" on the line...... Obama is the clear winner. "Honesty"? Both lose. "Reliable"? Both lose. "Experience"? McCain the clear winner. Of course experience is gained through experience. Something either can obtain.

From Audacity of Hope

"I will stand with the Muslim's should the political winds shift in an ugly dir-
ection."

By Barak Hussein Obama

So far the Muslim's worldwide have shown a complete lack of wanting to assimilate to their new countries they have moved to,they want their new country to change to their ways.As long as they feel this way, i will feel the way i do,and that is pack them up and send them home.
If they feel so strongly about their religion,They should man-up and grow some balls and go back home and change the things they didn't like in their country.

This is how I feel and why i will never vote for a closet Muslim like Obama,

koginam
07-04-2008, 01:39 PM
I am being objective I looked at their records and at their statements and made my decision. Know I am biased towards McCain because of the two he will do a better job.
Yes you are right experience is gained through experience. Something either can obtain. But we don't have time to wait for Obama to get up to speed, maybe in 4 to 8 years he will have the experience but now he is not capable of the task.

koginam
07-04-2008, 01:54 PM
It must have been a very traumatic experience moving from the cultural melting pot of New york, with its ethnic harmony to the back woods of Tennessee with its rednecks and simple ways, I hope you were able to enlighten them to the errors of their ways.
"The Muslims of the world have their way of living also" yes and sadly a not so small minority are causing the rest to come under suspicion, but if it smells like dog crap, looks like dog crap and the dog is standing over it, it is dog crap, so if Muslims are the problem then they should be looked at.
I have heard no one here state all muslims should be kicked out of America, those that are preaching hate and providing aid to our enemy should face justice.

koginam
07-04-2008, 02:05 PM
You can not be that naive to presume experience isn't important, Obama has shown he has no respect for the military and his actions prove it out, he will surround himself with and be influenced by liberals who are willing to appease the enemy until we are weaker and then it will cost more lives, and money to do what should have been done in the beginning, Experience translates into time and we will not have the time to wait for him to decide what actions to take in an emergency while he confers with his handlers. Experience takes charge and starts thing rolling while information is gathered.
Has Obama had to make life and death decisions which could cause the lose of life. NO McCain has.

koginam
07-04-2008, 03:10 PM
"Experience isn't a prerequisite for that position."
you are right you didn't say it was important and I didn't quote you as saying it was, so let me rephrase it for you. "You can not be that naive to presume experience isn't a prerequisite for that position"
Would you invest your money, your life savings in a company ran by someone who had never had leadership experience, or who had only been a very Junior executive for a short time in the company, who wanted to take part of your earnings and give them to someone else without your permission?
Would you trust your life and that of your wife and children to a security guard who had never been in a situation where he had to make a life or death decision, when he had no experience in the danger of war, who might want to talk to your attacker first?

"The very thought that it takes experience to with the stroke of a pen, start a war is ludicrous at best."
The experience comes in before the stroke of the pin, its knowing when to make war or when to make peace.

rudedog
07-04-2008, 03:30 PM
If you read my earlier statement about Muslim's,I was referring to people not wanting to be American's.
If you look at France and England right now and the problem's they are having with people not assimilating to their new country you will find that the Muslim religion or people are the main problem.
If you are immigrating to a new country to live, and make a new life for you and your family , you should want to follow what is their political system ,and their way of life. If that does not fit their lifestyle maybe they should try another country.
Now if I was unhappy being an American and wanted to move to a new country like Iraq or or some other Muslim country and wanted to change their country to Christen values.What do you think that country or their religion would do for me or my family.
Rudy Manuel

nrb
07-04-2008, 04:43 PM
It is interesting following the flawed logic and arguments in these posts. Another interesting tact is the effort made to defend islam.
First, confusing national interests versus the dictums of religions is rampant as the threat to the freedom and democracy of ALL nations is not posed by a nation, but by a religion; islam.
For those enlightened here who know a few muslims, one or two, who are nice folks and do not want do destroy our freedoms, please read up on the history of the world from 650 AD to the present and determine what muslims have done in the name of allah. Please read up on what is going on in Europe, Africa, the Middle East and the East to find what islam is doing at this moment to conquer other religions and nonmuslim countries.
Finally, to these enlightened ones, please read the koran to understand the basis of the goals to conquer ALL in the name of allah and mohammed.
Also please don't give us the BS about the Bible being violent because today I do not know of people conquering and killing in the name of the Bible.

RStiefel
07-04-2008, 04:59 PM
anyone trying to defend Islam. My understanding is that everyone legally here in this country are afforded the same rights and freedoms as we share. I suppose you feel what we did to the Native Americans in this country was also fair. They were here before us. Relocating them to such desolate areas that would not sustain anyone without the tenacity they have. This isn't 1950, and it's a free country to those legally here. That type of thinking needs to be put in the coffin with George Wallace.

nrb
07-04-2008, 05:22 PM
A quote, "The Muslims of the world have their way of living also. It does not make them all bad."
No, not all of them are bad but those who follow the koran and mohammed are possibly dangerous. Their "way of living" is to eliminate our way of living. Please do yourself a favor and learn some history and current affairs. After all, who the hell has attacked the U. S. numerous times lately?????

Rs, again your argument is without substance. We are discussing a known threat to freedom and democracy of our Western civilization, islam. We are not discussing the Native Americans. Do not put your distorted logic and perverse words into my logic .

I believe in freedom for all. I believe in freedom of religion. However, what do you do when a RELIGION, not a nation, is devoted to destroying our liberty, freedom, Constitution, and our way of life? I hope you can understand simple statements and logic.

koginam
07-04-2008, 05:57 PM
RStiefel
I don't agree with you their fore I am not objective, yes I see the logic of that.
My being not as educated as you I missed understood the threads meaning, so its agree with you or I am not objective, got it.

If only a university degree is necessary then with your reasoning the FBI should hire some one with a degree in Elizabethan literature over say someone with 20 years experience as a detective without a degree?

Yes the FBI & CIA do hire from universities but they don't become director of the FBI, or CIA after only a couple of years. and it is not a mandatory requirement to have a degree to work for the CIA.

I had hoped you would have answered my earlier questions but by not answering them I guess you did in a way.

I will overlook the miss spelling of my name because we all make mistakes and you could not have knowen i'm jewish so I don't think you meant it in a disrespectfull way, but its Koginam not Hoginam

rudedog
07-04-2008, 08:25 PM
Well for the second time I never said all Muslim's,I said that people who did not want to assimilate into being American's,but chose to keep their old ways and want us to change our ways and values.
You keep throwing race into this conversation which I have never mentioned, as everyone knows most religions are made up of different races so what.
Maybe you should go to North Korea and try to be a propaganda officer there, because you aren't doing a very good job of it here.
Rudy Manuel:rolleyes:

Mr. D
07-05-2008, 08:33 AM
It's interesting that the thread is named, "Are you objective?" and it turned into a discussion of what Muslims are like! :confused: :confused:

In starting the thread,

(1.) I was asking how many thought they were able to look at facts without interpreting them based on an opinion they have already formed? It seems to me allot of people look at every issue and weight it based on whether if seems liberal or conservative, Democratic or Republican, or from Obama or McCain rather than judge it on its own merit.

(2.) I was asking how many thought they were able to separate fact from opinion related to the topics discussed.

(Fact = data that can be proven accurate to all reasonable men.)

(Opinion = a belief that we accept and often live by based on tradition or faith rather than any provable data.)

vicvanb
07-05-2008, 12:18 PM
(2.) I was asking how many thought they were able to separate fact from opinion related to the topics discussed.


How many? Easy answer--two. You and me, but sometimes I wonder about you!

rudedog
07-05-2008, 04:07 PM
I guess anyone can be bias even on facts just throw a spin on it.
Finding people to be objective to facts is quite another, if it does not meet their view.
I guess we could discuss something non-political to talk about, or is it political.
Lets try school books.
I went to school in the 50's and 60's.
I would think that history is history wrong?
School books sure have a different history lesson than when I was in school.
Is that objective or factual ,who decides what to teach our kids.
Is it bias to their thoughts or is it biased to their political views.
I know that you were a teacher once what do you think.
Rudy Manuel:rolleyes:

vinny
07-05-2008, 05:07 PM
[QUOTE=rudedog;427769]I guess anyone can be bias even on facts just throw a spin on it.
Finding people to be objective to facts is quite another, if it does not meet their view.
I guess we could discuss something non-political to talk about, or is it political.
Lets try school books.
I went to school in the 50's and 60's.
I would think that history is history wrong?
School books sure have a different history lesson than when I was in school.
Is that objective or factual ,who decides what to teach our kids.
Is it bias to their thoughts or is it biased to their political views.
I know that you were a teacher once what do you think.
Rudy Manuel:rolleyes:[/QUOTE

I'll be happy to answer that. I'm a teacher/ Administrator in one of the largest districts in the county, 3600 HS kids in two buildings. We finished proctoring the regents on the 25th of June and I'll tell ya that the regents are politically driven. Every opportunity the authors of the regents or the texts have to slant the facts to support the Liberal agenda they do. Weather its the war in Iraq, foreign policy, or Global warming the authors definitely put a Liberal spin on it. its called "Indoctrination" or Brain washing, much like most of the Media who are in the tank for the democratic party so too are educators and the publishers of the texts are children read. They don't tell the whole story, they omit certain facts that would otherwise stimulate healthy debate. It's all about control, you see most democrats believe we are just to stupid to formulate an intelligent opinion, so they'll do it for us. They make it very simple for us to come up with only one conclusion. Theirs! Its a disgrace!!!!!!!!!
vinny

Old Timer
07-05-2008, 05:29 PM
I think everyone is born with a sense of right and wrong. I also think that the older we get the more blurry the line between them gets. I am in no way schooled in psychology, but it seems to me that when you stand up for what you believe to be right, you tend to categorize everything.
like Abortion or Gay Marriage.

A person likes to see their correct views furthered in the country so you vote for the person that that will push the cause. At this point you have decided for your self that someone is Right and someone is Wrong. and the fighting is on.

Bill Wynne
07-05-2008, 05:58 PM
I would like to recommend a history book for any American to read. It is titled "A History of the American People", by Paul Johnson.

Paul Johnson, a British citizen, is considered one of the foremost historians in the world today and this work just about nails our history and more importantly, why it worked out like it has. If you can take the time to read this 1,000 plus page work, you will not look at history or current affairs in the same light.

I have read it and reread it. It has opened my eyes. It is just full of nuggets and pearls.

Although this is not a high school type text book, it should be read by anyone who endeavors to teach or learn the subject.

Concho Bill

Tracker
07-05-2008, 10:17 PM
DO I HAVE THIS STRAIGHT?



HIS FATHER WAS A BLACK AFRICAN MUSLIM FROM KENYA. WE HAVE SEEN PICTURES OF HIS AFRICAN FAMILY.

HIS MOTHER WAS A WHITE AMERICAN ATHEIST FROM KANSAS. WHERE ARE THE PICTURES OF HIS AMERICAN FAMILY?

HIS FATHER DESERTED HIS MOTHER WHEN HE WAS ONLY TWO YEARS OLD AND WENT BACK TO AFRICA BY WAY OF HARVARD UNIVERSITY HOW? WAS HIS FATHER WEALTHY?

HIS MOTHER MARRIED AN INDONESIAN MUSLIM AND THEN MOVED TO JAKARTA WHERE HE WAS ENROLLED IN A MUSLIM SCHOOL.

WHEN HE REACHED HIGH SCHOOL AGE HIS MOTHER SENT HIM TO HAWAII TO BE WITH HIS WHITE GRANDPARENTS AND HE WAS PUT INTO AN EXPENSIVE PRIVATE SCHOOL. HE LATER WENT TO HARVARD UNIVERSITY. HOW? WERE HIS GRANDPARENTS RICH?

HE LIVES IN A $1.4 MILLION HOUSE OBTAINED THROUGH A DEAL WITH A WEALTHY FUNDRAISER. HOW?

HE 'WORKED' AS A CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVIST IN CHICAGO . HE HAS NEVER HELD A PRODUCTIVE JOB OR RECEIVED A PAY CHECK THAT WAS NOT GOVERNMENT-FUNDED AND/OR TAYPAYER SUPPORTED.

THE PRESIDENCY IS NOT A CIVIL RIGHTS POSITION, NOR IS IT SUBJECT TO AFFIRMATIVE ACTION SET ASIDES; ON-THE-JOB TRAINING WON'T CUT IT.

HE ENTERED POLITICS AT THE STATE LEVEL AND THEN THE NATIONAL LEVEL WHERE HE HAS MINIMAL EXPERIENCE.

HE IS PROUD OF HIS 'AFRICAN HERITAGE' (A FATHER WHO GOT A WHITE GIRL PREGNANT AND DESERTED HER).

WHERE IS THE PRIDE IN HIS 'WHITE HERITAGE'? (A MOTHER WHO FLAUNTED CONVENTION AND DID NOT BELIEVE IN GOD).

SOME MIGHT THINK THERE WAS NOT MUCH TO BE PROUD OF EITHER WAY.

HE BELONGS, AND HAS BELONGED FOR OVER 20 YEARS, TO AN 'AFRO-CENTRIC' CHURCH IN CHICAGO THAT HATES WHITES, HATES JEWS, AND BLAMES AMERICA FOR ALL THE WORLD'S PERCEIVED FAULTS. (INCLUDING CREATING THE AIDs VIRUS IN ORDER TO INFLICT IT ON AFRICANS).

HE REPEATEDLY WHITEWASHES THE PASTOR, HIS CHURCH AND THE MEMBERS WHO CHEERED AFTER HEARING VITRIOLIC TIRADES AGAINST AMERICA

HE COULD NOT CONFRONT HIS PASTOR BUT HE WANTS US TO BELIEVE HE CAN CONFRONT NORTH KOREA AND IRAN?

YEAH RIGHT ! !

DURING HIS VERY BRIEF TIME IN THE UNITED STATES SENATE HE HAS MANAGED TO AMASS THE NUMBER ONE ULTRA LIBERAL VOTING RECORD OUT OF THE ONE HUNDRED MEMBERS.

HE HAS VOTED CONSISTENTLY FOR BIGGER GOVERNMENT AND HIGHER TAXES. HE HAS VOTED FOR BIG ENTITLEMENTS AND LEGISLATION THAT WOULD SEVERELY CURTAIL AMERICA'S ABILITY TO FIGHT TERRORISM AND TO PROTECT OUR BORDERS AND OUR NATIONAL INTERESTS AROUND THE WORLD.

BUT, HE IS A GOOD ORATOR. ISN'T THAT A COMFORT?

YEAH, I THINK I SEE HOW WELL HE COULD UNITE THE COUNTRY.

I THINK THE TRUTH IS THAT HE HOPES NO ONE WILL PUT THE PIECES TOGETHER.

LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, this is your co-pilot. LET ME INTRODUCE YOU TO OUR NEW CHIEF PILOT.HE HAS NEVER FLOWN AN AIRPLANE, IN FACT HE HAS NEVER EVEN SAT IN THE COCKPIT, BUT HE SAYS HE HAS RIDDEN ON PLANES BEFORE. WE ARE SURE HE WILL GUIDE US SAFELY THROUGH THE STORMS WE MAY ENCOUNTER ON THIS FLIGHT.

PEOPLE WHAT ARE YOU THINKING? HAVE YOU NEVER HEARD THE STORY ABOUT THE WOLF HIDING IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING SO HE CAN DESTROY THEM FROM WITH-IN ? THE HAND WRITING IS ON THE WALL, DO YOU NOT HAVE EYES TO SEE IT ?

THINK LONG AND HARD BEFORE YOU VOTE FOR THIS GUY!

vinny
07-05-2008, 10:26 PM
Tracker
With all you state, isn't it amazing that Obama has such a following. I don't know if there are that many deaf, dumb and blind people in the country or if I'm living in the twilight zone. I can only attribute the following to the effect the media's bias has on the weak in our country. They truly do control the brains of the weak, or is that a contradiction in terms, brains/weak?. Too many sheep following the wolf dressed as a sheep.
God help us!
vinny
Oh, one last thing, McCain is no better! The only difference between him and Obama is the media wants Obama to win.

Bill Wynne
07-05-2008, 10:43 PM
Well, you can call me prejudiced if you like. I won't be offended. I have this same prejudiced feelings about rattle snakes.:)

Most of what tracker says is fact. (Fact = data that can be proven accurate to all reasonable men.)

All of what Vinny says in his last post I agree with.

I would like to alter D's definition of a fact. (Fact= data that can be proven accurate.) Reasonable men can disagree but the facts will remain.

Concho Bill

rudedog
07-05-2008, 11:02 PM
Vinny thanks for your comments.
That is more or less what I thought.Lucky for my family my wife home schooled our daughter, she's 6 years old now,when she started kindergarten last year she was 1 of 2 that could read in a class of 25.We are lucky in that she likes to learn new things,so we'll keep schooling her while she goes to school.
P.S. I live in California the schools here average.

Bill I will have to get that book from the book store thanks.
Rudy Manuel:D

H."Snuffy"Smith
07-05-2008, 11:17 PM
Now the shooting sports are grounds for "QUOTE":rolleyes:



is nothing more than a stomping grounds for prejudice, bias and jealousy. The saddest part is, Wilbur allows it. This is one of the reasons young guys are turning away from the shooting sports.

Adios Mr. D

vinny
07-05-2008, 11:40 PM
rudedog
Your welcome. It sounds like you and your wife have your heads on straight and are academically conscious. Remain vigilant in your efforts to afford your child the opportunity to hear both sides of all the issues she learns in school. With supporting parents a child's ability to learn is endless. The more children get at home the more they can give in school. Most important get to know the teacher and her/his curriculum.

Bill
You used a term "reasonable men" I've yet to meet any idea-log that is reasonable. For the most part, and this goes for both sides of the political spectrum a lack of compromise is a direct result of ideological politicians who are just that "too unreasonable".
I find a few of the members here are just that, unreasonable. Its those members who have graduated to my "ignore list". You see "Schools out for summer" so I can pick and choose who I decide to engage in discussions with. During school time I dont have much choice, it's my job having to deal with teachers who are polar opposites from me. So when I'm on here, I can choose. Sorry if that offends anyone, but that's just the way it is!
vinny

rudedog
07-05-2008, 11:51 PM
I don't know how it is where you live, but here in California when you try to talk to people about the elections or candidates they don't care to talk about it.Their minds are made up,sound familiar,don't bother them with the facts.
Maybe it's our fault for not speaking up,with our opinions to the government and how it's been run for so long, maybe we should have said " I'M MAD AS HELL AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANY MORE".
I feel the same way you do about the elections.

I watched a show about the Belgian Congo a couple of years ago.
I think that they were talking about the Polio vaccine in the 50's,and how when they started to get low on the vaccine we sent them,they were told how make their own.
Apparently when they were making it they made it from a wrong culture.The people making the documentary felt that this is where the Aids virus came from.
The doctors that were still alive, said know to this,but a doctor who had died felt that this was how the Aids virus started

RStiefel
07-06-2008, 12:34 AM
He was born a spoiled military brat.

He was born in Panama, NOT legally a part of America but under military control.

His college grades were below par, and was disruptive in school.

His acceptance in the military academy was possible only through the influence his father and grandfather had.

The college schooling he received was paid for by his parents. He did not work.

Adopted a child from Indonesia, rather than to adopt a homeless and love starved orphan from America.

He had a mother and daughter duo from Mexico working at their home in Az. without green card or other documentation. (illegally). Paid in cash.

He tried his best along with Diane Feinstein to stop the sale of guns at gun shows all over the country.

He pushed through legislation which was made law closing the classified documents pertaining to POWs in Nam. They are now sealed from the public forever.

He told the Latino community there would be no amnesty program. Now he is on the band wagon to make sure amnesty is granted to ALL of the people here illegally.

He has openly admitted to being a war criminal, killing thousands of innocent women and children in Viet Nam.

He openly admitted to confessing his guilt to the Vietnamese.

While our country needs help, he spends a week in Columbia and Mexico, (not going to get votes there).

He has a net worth of more than 40 Million dollars. (where did that come from?). Not his parents.

I'm sure I have missed a great deal, but this is a start.

ALL OF THE ABOVE CAN BE FOUND ON HIS WEBSITE, HIS AUTOBIOGRAPHY,
TAPE FROM 60 MINUTES. ALL IN HIS OWN WORDS. NOTHING FROM WIKIPEDIA.

My point here is to show how ridiculous it is to find fault with the opposing party, rather than talk about the good things your candidate has done.

Now, if what he says in his book and his interview on 60 minutes are untrue,
he's not a very truthful person..... is he.

Mr. D
07-06-2008, 03:44 AM
I guess anyone can be bias even on facts just throw a spin on it.
Finding people to be objective to facts is quite another, if it does not meet their view.
I guess we could discuss something non-political to talk about, or is it political.
Lets try school books.
I went to school in the 50's and 60's.
I would think that history is history wrong?
School books sure have a different history lesson than when I was in school.
Is that objective or factual ,who decides what to teach our kids.
Is it bias to their thoughts or is it biased to their political views.
I know that you were a teacher once what do you think.
Rudy Manuel:rolleyes:

I think I was trained to teach U.S. History and Political Science, but switched to Biology because I couldn't stand teaching the sanitized, ethnocentric versions indoctrinated into the public schools. That's what I find so funny when people think the public schools are liberal! Hard to find a more traditional, conservative atmosphere. I guess that's why when a nut pops up it is so noticeable in the educational system.

It would be really good if we could all try to deal with "fact" rather than cheap shots on all issues. We are get to have our own opinions, but not our own facts!

koginam
07-06-2008, 10:41 AM
RStiefel

As usual you put out half truths and innuendo to prove your half assed point. I only had to read as far as "The college schooling he received was paid for by his parents. He did not work." and "He has openly admitted to being a war criminal, killing thousands of innocent women and children in Viet Nam." and "He has openly admitted to being a war criminal, killing thousands of innocent women and children in Viet Nam." These statements alone show you are willing to shade the truth. to use statements out of context and innuendo to prove your point. The following is from another post I made to you when you brought up the same misguided point under "Is He" http://www.benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?p=427596#post427596 maybe you didn't read it then.
Yes McCain was handed his education. In case you don't know in order to have your education handed to you, as you put it, in a military academy you must agree to serve in the armed forces for a period of time, Here is how john McCain got his free ride.
A 1958 graduate of the U.S. Naval Academy, McCain had a 22-year military career as a pilot and officer in the Navy. Five of those years (1967-73) were spent in a Vietnamese prisoner of war camp after he was shot down over Hanoi during the Vietnam War.
The quotes about his admitting war crimes are out of context those words were spoken while he was a prisoner and after he was tortured. Either you didn't bother to get your facts right or you purposely are trying to miss lead people, by making it appear he admitted to war crimes in the 60 min. interview, he did not, he said that during his imprisonment in Viet Nam he had folded under the torture and admitted these things, He went on to say he wished he had been stronger.
Your other points are trivial and at best based on the liberal tactic of class warfare.
Sadly we can't look at Obamas military record as with many liberals has none. We can't judge his accomplishments in the senate as their aren't enough of them, but to be fair would you like to give us a list of his senate victories, bill's he sponsored, or just signed on to?
What legislation has he been responsible for that shaped our country's course in world affairs, what important legislation has he brought up before the floor that effected the American people in a positive way.

Old Timer
07-06-2008, 11:00 AM
I see it everywhere, it seems to me that today people are trying to deprive others of their opinions. My opinion is my personal property, if you do not like it (GO AWAY)

koginam
07-06-2008, 11:10 AM
MrD
Thank you for that humorous last post, " I think I was trained to teach U.S. History and Political Science, but switched to Biology because I couldn't stand teaching the sanitized, ethnocentric versions indoctrinated into the public schools. That's what I find so funny when people think the public schools are liberal! Hard to find a more traditional, conservative atmosphere. I guess that's why when a nut pops up it is so noticeable in the educational system."
"It would be really good if we could all try to deal with "fact" rather than cheap shots on all issues. We are get to have our own opinions, but not our own facts!"
It's good that you have a sense of humor, It certainly made my day. Sarcasm is a lost art not understood by many, but you did a good job.
I don't know where you teach at but it is possibly the only or at least one of the few school districts that is conservative.
Or are you trying to create your own facts?

Rusty Carr
07-06-2008, 11:50 AM
Hi guys, I missed you the last couple of weeks. Mr. Stiefel, I won't go over your posst point by point, as mr. Koginham has done a good job of that. [I] will say that anyone can use facts, documented facts, such as mr. McCain admitting to war crimes, to give a false impression over all. Regardless of what each of the candidates did 30 years ago, only one shows any real inclination to ban guns, raise taxes, weaken the defense of this country, and who has little or no experience, beyond being a neighborhood organizer. While I was in Africa, all the people I was in contact with, are worried that an Obama Presidency will result in Americans unable to come over there and hunt. I believe that I'll just stick with my beliefs and vote McCain. Good to be back, Rusty Carr

RStiefel
07-06-2008, 11:52 AM
It is quite obvious you want nothing less than to have everyone share your pipe dreams. Everyone does not share your twisted views, so get over it. I have NEVER said Obama would be a better leader. I have NEVER said to anyone, don't vote for McCain. You are quite good at copying and repeating the garbage that others drop in places for people like you to compost and use to make their own case against someone. How about for once in your life, you try to show a little integrity, and respect the opinions and freedom of choice everyone else has. You can order a copy of the tape from 60 minutes. You can purchase the book's from your local book store. If they don't have them in stock, they will gladly order them for you. If you choose not to read and listen to FACTS, so be it. Just try and closet the definitions you copy from the WIKIPEDIA smut site. I'm doing my best to remember the correct spelling of your name. Now.... I hope my pronunciation is correct.

jpcampbell
07-06-2008, 12:18 PM
I have watched this topic for sometime but I have not posted until now.
Let's look at your list of statements one at a time.

He was born a spoiled military brat.
While you seem to see this as a discracefull thing I see it as coming from a family willing to serve their country with their lives not just their words from a safe place while men like them risk their lives.

He was born in Panama, NOT legally a part of America but under military control.
Again I don't see this as a problem it just means his family was willing to go to a stinking hell hole with disease and filth everywhere to do their duty to the American People

His college grades were below par, and was disruptive in school.
As a flaming liberal I would think you would be more understanding, in today's school system he would be labeled with ADD, or ADHD.

His acceptance in the military academy was possible only through the influence his father and grandfather had.
With the service that they gave to the country I see no problem with them helping him get in, and in case you didn't know many senators recommend their constitutes to the academies each year, many of which could not get in without those recommendations.

The college schooling he received was paid for by his parents. He did not work.
I feel Koginam answered that very well, and after seeing the other post at "is He" I feel you already knew that and yet you continued to bring it up, this is not an honorable thing to do.

Adopted a child from Indonesia, rather than to adopt a homeless and love starved orphan from America.
I don't know how to answer this it seems such a petty thing to be upset about, but I guess we could ask how many homeless and love starved orphan from America has Obama adopted?

He had a mother and daughter duo from Mexico working at their home in Az. without green card or other documentation. (illegally). Paid in cash.
This is one I have a problem with not only did he do it but many politicians are guilty of this, they should have to pay back taxes and be fined.

He tried his best along with Diane Feinstein to stop the sale of guns at gun shows all over the country.
Again I find this one troubling as well, but where does Obama stand on this? He is looking for a lot stronger restrictions on our gun right then McCain is.

He pushed through legislation which was made law closing the classified documents pertaining to POWs in Nam. They are now sealed from the public forever.
I can not remake on this one because I was unable to find any such law, if you could give me more information on this I would look into it, but as it stands now I will have to assume it is BS. based on the other facts you have given.

He told the Latino community there would be no amnesty program. Now he is on the band wagon to make sure amnesty is granted to ALL of the people here illegally.
Again could you give us some sources to look up. and also isn't that the same as what obama is doing?

He has openly admitted to being a war criminal, killing thousands of innocent women and children in Viet Nam.
Again this is pure BS Koginam covered that as well in his earlier post.

He openly admitted to confessing his guilt to the Vietnamese.
Again this is pure BS Koginam covered that as well in his earlier post.

While our country needs help, he spends a week in Columbia and Mexico, (not going to get votes there).
No votes for him their but he is laying a base for his foreign polices, something that Obama will be copying very soon the fact he didn't do it earlier is due to his lack of experience in world affairs.

He has a net worth of more than 40 Million dollars. (where did that come from?). Not his parents.
And this is a sign of what? criminal conduct? Corruption? again i find myself quoting koginam, " best based on the liberal tactic of class warfare."
Let me ask where did Obama get his money not from his family, maybe from hard work and investments, probably the same as McCain.

I'm sure I have missed a great deal, but this is a start.

ALL OF THE ABOVE CAN BE FOUND ON HIS WEBSITE, HIS AUTOBIOGRAPHY,
TAPE FROM 60 MINUTES. ALL IN HIS OWN WORDS. NOTHING FROM WIKIPEDIA.
To bad you didn't do your homework you would have seen that the viet nam quotes were out of context.
You do your cause no good by these tactics and if you are a man of honor you would apologize to the members of this board for the blatant use of innuendo and half truths.

My point here is to show how ridiculous it is to find fault with the opposing party, rather than talk about the good things your candidate has done.
This statement is also something you should apologize for members here are not fooled that easily.

Now, if what he says in his book and his interview on 60 minutes are untrue,
he's not a very truthful person..... is he.
And neither are you acting as a very truthful person, as this post shows, If I am mistaken on any point please let me know.

RStiefel
07-06-2008, 12:39 PM
My thread was nothing more than an answer to the many threads posted against Obama. It serves no purpose to try and force one from their choice of politician. It does however give one a black eye, when one thinks that by finding fault with the opposition, their choice is the only one. Try telling the shooters at the next benchrest match that the caliber you shoot is the only choice and their choice is the wrong choice because you say it is. I believe you would soon find yourself alienated by those groups. Extolling the virtues of your choice is the only logical approach. That approach sure is working in our favor right now in North Korea.

Paul Fielder
07-06-2008, 12:52 PM
Hi guys, I missed you the last couple of weeks. Mr. Stiefel, I won't go over your posst point by point, as mr. Koginham has done a good job of that. [I] will say that anyone can use facts, documented facts, such as mr. McCain admitting to war crimes, to give a false impression over all. Regardless of what each of the candidates did 30 years ago, only one shows any real inclination to ban guns, raise taxes, weaken the defense of this country, and who has little or no experience, beyond being a neighborhood organizer. While I was in Africa, all the people I was in contact with, are worried that an Obama Presidency will result in Americans unable to come over there and hunt. I believe that I'll just stick with my beliefs and vote McCain. Good to be back, Rusty Carr


...how was Africa other than the political duscussions??!!!! Any good stories??

I think the thread was insulting but we have had some good posts for JM's defense. Hard to believe any of us has stopped to 'think' about voting for the candidate that is more likely to support gun rights (this is a shooting forum). Can't be objective if we're considering JM??

Taxes: I heard a vote from a tax payer for obama is like a chicken voting for Col. Sanders.

The WAR: Amazing, some of us think we need to get the big bad wolf this time at all costs. Regardless of $$$$ or the time it takes....How could ANYONE believe pulling out now and quiting the war would do way more harm than good to the U.S.?? I want to win this one NOW so my kids don't have to find out what real life 9/11 is like later.

No, I don't want to give obama a chance....sigh. Just a bunch of baby killing, blood for oil, save the rich neocon rednecks:-)

How could a conservative vote for the republican candidate against one of the most liberal senators in his short HISTORY?? What a shocker!! Nope, guess I'm just not objective when it comes to the issues that concern me....haven't even thought about them.

pf

koginam
07-06-2008, 01:36 PM
RStiefel
All I was doing was pointing out your misrepresentation and BS. the same as I have done when people try to say Obama is a muslim or some other fact that is unsubstituted, yes as it stands I will vote for McCain with his warts and all, but your facts against him don't stand up for the most part.

"I have NEVER said Obama would be a better leader. I have NEVER said to anyone, don't vote for McCain."
Then why all the negative posts about McCain, You have not listed a single post for McCain or a single negative about Obama that I have seen.

"You are quite good at copying and repeating the garbage that others drop in places for people like you to compost and use to make their own case against someone."
I have mainly copied your statements to show where they are misleading.

"How about for once in your life, you try to show a little integrity, and respect the opinions and freedom of choice everyone else has"
I not only respect others opinions and freedoms I have served my country and bled for it, lost friends and family who fought for it, that is why it means so much to me that the facts be correct.

"I'm doing my best to remember the correct spelling of your name. Now.... I hope my pronunciation is correct."
The spelling is correct, but when you pronounce the name their is no f-----ng in front of it.
FACT
http://rosemeadherald.vox.com/library/post/how-many-could-stand-john-mccains-torture.html?_c=feed-atom sorry this isn't the cbc web site but the quote is correct.

I don't care who you vote for. But don't act like you haven't made up your mind already.
McCain on the 60 min. show was talking about the admission he had been forced to make while in captivity, he was not stating he thought he was a war criminal, or had killed innocents.

I hope you will follow the following advise it comes from a highly educated man

"Everything I quoted is FACT.
Look it up. Read it. Watch the interview. Read the book. His admission is in writing, his own words on national TV.(60 minutes)."
I know you probably won't follow the advise but if you do and you find I'm wrong please state the source.

vicvanb
07-06-2008, 01:44 PM
(1.) I was asking how many thought they were able to look at facts without interpreting them based on an opinion they have already formed?


How many? After additional posts the answer has emerged--ZERO.

We need to recruit some new participants. The same old lines from the same old faces get tiring after a while. Anyone know of somene new who can contribute something fresh?? PLEASE!

RStiefel
07-06-2008, 02:02 PM
I have his book! I remember the interview on 60 minutes. I watched it. I lived in the senators state and voted for him during his campaign for senator. I, like the other citizens of Az. witnessed the things presented and legislated by him. Yes I have made up my mind as to whom to vote for. Neither one. Why all the negative posts about him??? Like I said, I lived in his state and have witnessed it. Have you? Why so many negative posts about Obama? This is simply the way things are when politics is the topic.

koginam
07-06-2008, 02:30 PM
RStiefel
If you have read his book and seen the interview then how can you incinuate he said he was a war criminal on 60 min., you have to acknowledge the statement was made while he was a prisoner of war and being tortured. not a fresh admission of guilt as you insinuated.

You are crying about the members not being fair, being prejudice, uneducated, and so on, while you are also showing these faults.

Why so many negative posts about Obama? Because he doesn't stand for the same values that most, not all, but most of the members who respond on the topic, if you want to find a more like minded group then go to the democratic web sites and anti McCain sites there you can say anything you want about McCain without any proof to back it up, but here no matter who says it no matter which candidate it is about have your facts correct and be prepared to defend any off the wall statements with sources.

I have not witnessed life under McCain but as many times as McCain has won reelection the majority of AZ. must not agree with you.

RStiefel
07-06-2008, 03:10 PM
The interview on 60 minutes was in his own words. It was NOT the confession he gave to the Vietnamese. The reason for the reelections in Az. is quite clear. Arizona is a predominately a Republican state. I am not going to waste time trying to explain myself. Those who choose not to read his book and view the interview don't want to know the truth. It is much easier to say Obama is bad for our country and McCain is the man. I have clearly listed the sources, and they are available to everyone. These sources back up every word I have said. Both sources are in McCains words, and not the words of his confession in Viet Nam. The autobiography was read and approved by him, and the interview was conducted with his permission. Geeez.

koginam
07-06-2008, 03:35 PM
RStiefel

John McCain's tortured statement
Actual Transcript: from Oct.1997 interview.

WALLACE: (Voiceover) People who know McCain well say he can hold a grudge. He also has a legendary temper. But if McCain can be hard on his friends and even harder on his enemies, he can also be very hard on himself.

Sen. McCAIN: I m--made serious, serious mistakes and did things wrong when I was in prison, OK?

WALLACE: What did you do wrong in prison?

Sen. McCAIN: I wrote a confession. I was guilty of war crimes against the Vietnamese people. I intentionally bombed women and children.

WALLACE: And you did it because you were being tortured...

Sen. McCAIN: I...

WALLACE: ...and you'd reached the end of the line.

Sen. McCAIN: Yes. But I should have gone further. I should have--I--I never believed that I would--that I would break, and I did.


This doesn't seem to back up your accusations. But shows you to have not read your own sources.
"I am not going to waste time trying to explain myself."
I don't think you could explain yourself.

Still can't spell can you? try cut and paste. I wouldn't mind but I use my real name, so I would appreciate the courtesy of it being spelled right.

RStiefel
07-06-2008, 03:53 PM
a confession. Period, end of sentence.
I was guilty of war crimes against the Vietnamese people. Period, end of sentence.
I intentionally bombed women and children. Period, end of sentence.
And you did it because you were being tortured?
I... (yes?, no?) If you are innocent, you say yes. If you are guilty, you say no. No response leaves a question in everyones mind.


I don't have to go on and rub salt into wounds.
No one will ever know the truth about what was said in his confession, because it has been sealed from the public forever.

Bill Wynne
07-06-2008, 04:33 PM
a confession. Period, end of sentence.
I was guilty of war crimes against the Vietnamese people. Period, end of sentence.

Mr. RStiefel,

Do you realize that you have entered over 20 entries on this thread. I can tell that you are not gaining any friends or even converts to your arguments. Most of the other entries are directed to you or about you. Don't you think that this is enough?:)

Concho Bill

RStiefel
07-06-2008, 04:35 PM
this:
While I lived in Az, he usually did answer questions honestly and directly.
JM - 1, HO - 0

He did try to make Rumsfeld understand we needed more troops in Iraq.
JM - 2, HO - 0

He does believe in GOD and his bible.
JM - 3, HO - 0

RStiefel
07-06-2008, 04:37 PM
Now what? I don't have this luxury as do the others? I count just as many and more from others. I'm not supposed to respond to statements directed to me?

koginam
07-06-2008, 04:39 PM
RStiefel
He answered yes. the hesitation was because he was interrupted my Wallace while he was answering.
He was talking about the confession given while under torture, he was not saying to Wallace that he was confessing to anything new, how many of us could stand up to the torture he went through or are you going to deny it happened, are you so spiteful and blind that you can't see that, or is the problem with facts that is to much for you to handle.
Did McCain date a girl you liked, steal a ice cream from you when you were little?
You are ignoring facts, or are you just being petty.

I know many people like you, they make up their mind and no facts will change it, they will overlook and distort any facts that don't go along with their assumptions, they will accuse anyone with an opposing view as biased, ignorant, or non objective, they will ask for everyone to get along and be nice as long as it works for them but the first time they find the other sides argument is winning they cry foul.

Your comment about not voting only shows you have no understanding of how important it is, you don't show the respect to those who fought, were maimed, or died to give you the right, their sacrifices gave you an obligation to vote. Vote for anyone you want, I know I am voting for the lesser of two evils but I won't give up that right or any of my rights, I earned them.

RStiefel
07-06-2008, 04:50 PM
freedom of choice kigonam. I won't help elect Obama, nor will I cast my vote for the lesser of 2 evils simply because he was a POW. No one has an obligation to vote. It is a right, and a choice. Both of which I am entitled to exercise.

Since it has been made clear that this court allows only a prosecutor and no defense, some other court is in order.

Yote
07-06-2008, 05:01 PM
freedom of choice kigonam.

RStiefel, do you suffer from dyslexia or are you intentionally trying to piss koginam off with the spelling of his name?

I know of a certain member here that would say that's school girl tactics if you are just trying to irritate him.

jpcampbell
07-06-2008, 05:04 PM
I had not looked at it as koginam has but I will agree their is an obligation owed to those who fight for us. If you think freedom is a choice then what about the people living under dictatorships do you think they had a choice and that's what they picked?

You have misspelled Koginams name three times, he has been nice about it but you are insulting him now, is this how you want the members here to see you, as a petty little boy who takes cheap shots?

Mr. D
07-06-2008, 05:07 PM
The allegations about McCain collaborating with the Vietnamese have been around for a long time. Unless someone has a good source of fact that speaks to the issue we might as well get back to swiftboating Obama! No one cares if there's any fact related to charges about Obama! :D :D :D

koginam
07-06-2008, 05:27 PM
Mr.D
I didn't see any posts here about McCain Collaborating with the Vietnamese, but that's a good way to make an accusation and try to seem above it.

As a matter of fact I do care about any facts you would have on Obama you would like to share, But I ask you to be understanding if I don't agree with you, I have found the best way to present a point here is with listing sources
or stating its your own opinion.
You should also know that I believe Swift Boating is the telling of the truth by persons who were involved, I have seen no evidence that the swift boaters were wrong, if you have proof they lied please contact kerry maybe he could sue them and show us he was a victim.

Mr. D
07-06-2008, 05:41 PM
Mr.D
I didn't see any posts here about McCain Collaborating with the Vietnamese, but that's a good way to make an accusation and try to seem above it.

As a matter of fact I do care about any facts you would have on Obama you would like to share, But I ask you to be understanding if I don't agree with you, I have found the best way to present a point here is with listing sources
or stating its your own opinion.
You should also know that I believe Swift Boating is the telling of the truth by persons who were involved, I have seen no evidence that the swift boaters were wrong, if you have proof they lied please contact kerry maybe he could sue them and show us he was a victim.

I made the point very clearly that swiftboating against McCain without clear proof is despicable even if it is OK with you about Kerry! Don't try to mischaracterize what I said! Incidentally, review the giant amounts of given by some Republican activists behind the Kerry Swiftboating and the fact the same paid operative was used for the dirty politics as was used during the Vietnam War. You also forget the men who testified for Kerry. It also is a tremendous slap in the face of the military to believe they would give him a medal falsely while men were dying! Some people have no morality in politics as you will see soon against Obama! Of course McCain will know nothing about it just as Bush knew nothing about the attacks on McCain in the 2000 primary and the attacks on Kerry in 2004 General Election! We'll see if McCain keeps it clean or not! Oh, I forgot Obama is a Muslim terrorist in deep cover!

As far as Kerry being able to sue anyone, I hope you know it is nearly impossible to sue when your are a political candidate. Kerry was just too dumb to go after Bush directly and shove his war record down his throat! If Clinton had Kerry's war record he would have compared it to Bush's AWOL record and crushed him. Kerry tried to take the high road and look presidential. Duh!

Bill Wynne
07-06-2008, 05:46 PM
The allegations about McCain collaborating with the Vietnamese have been around for a long time. Unless someone has a good source of fact that speaks to the issue we might as well get back to swiftboating Obama! No one cares if there's any fact related to charges about Obama! :D :D :D

John McCain has been around in the public eye for over 40 years. There is little about him that is not in the public record. He seems to dance on both sides of the isle. That may be a good thing for unity.

We just do not know that much about Obama, his record is less than clear because it is so short. I care if there are any facts relating to the charges about Obama. The man may be my next President. To do the job right he will need both our support and prayers.

It would be great if we could believe that either of the two candidates could be acceptable to most of us. At least it would be great if we could see our party's man loose and we not hate the man who is President?

Concho Bill

Mr. D
07-06-2008, 06:06 PM
It would be great if we could believe that either of the two candidates could be acceptable to most of us. At least it would be great if we could see our party's man loose and we not hate the man who is President?

Concho Bill

If McCain wins, he will have my full support as Bush did at the beginning! I actually hoped Bush would be a unifying force as he claimed to be. He was just the opposite. I believe McCain will try to be a unifying force, but he may not listen to anyone on foreign policy and take us the same direction Bush did into more wars of choice and militaristic approaches to everything. I believe McCain was a NeoCon long before Bush even though he has better values.

koginam
07-06-2008, 06:18 PM
MrD
What you said was "The allegations about McCain collaborating with the Vietnamese have been around for a long time. Unless someone has a good source of fact that speaks to the issue we might as well get back to swift boating Obama!"
and my answer was "I didn't see any posts here about McCain Collaborating with the Vietnamese, but that's a good way to make an accusation and try to seem above it."

You are trying to play the part of the victim another liberal ploy. You brought up an accusation about Mccain Collaborating as if it is what we were discussing in the thread, it was not, had you presented the comment as you did in the last post "I made the point very clearly that swift boating against McCain without clear proof is despicable even if it is OK with you about Kerry!" (not complete quote) it would have not bothered me.

I know of no law in any state that stops kerry from suing. How many men who served with him spoke up for him? Many of us do feel it was a slap in the face that kerry was able to get those medals. I was in Viet nam as a grunt in the 101st when kerry made his speech before congress it made many of us angry, we knew it wasn't true yet the liberal media ate it up, he hurt the moral of thousands of fighting men with his lies. kerry couldn't bring up the Bush being AWOL because it was found not to be true, even though they tried to dummy up some records and give them to the media.

If you would like to start another thread about swift boating lets do it, We can share Facts.

The coward clinton does have a war record starting with his draft dodging, I for one will always wonder what happened to the man that had to take his place. but lets take this to another thread.

Mr. D
07-06-2008, 06:34 PM
MrD
What you said was "The allegations about McCain collaborating with the Vietnamese have been around for a long time. Unless someone has a good source of fact that speaks to the issue we might as well get back to swift boating Obama!"
and my answer was "I didn't see any posts here about McCain Collaborating with the Vietnamese, but that's a good way to make an accusation and try to seem above it."



If you are unaware of the allegations about McCain it is probably due to where you get your information. It has been out there since his release. Google the subject and you'll see what I mean. Very definite statements have been made about what he signed and said for the Vietnamese, but I've never heard information that seemed objective, so I give him the benefit of the doubt as we should with Obama! I'm just making the point that we should give Obama the same benefit of the doubt as is given McCain. McCain has questions about his record too such as the Keating Five issue.

koginam
07-06-2008, 06:55 PM
MrD
Got a little more in this time good work.
I am quite aware of the accusations and I am aware of those that made them, I consider them to be similar to those in the code pink movement and I give them as much credibility. I have accused Obama of nothing other then have little experience. I believe you brought up the Muslim terrorist thing. I do not believe he is a terrorist or a closet Muslim, or many of the other accusations made against him I do look at the people he associates with, he has some problems their as far as I can see.
I have judged Obama on facts and found him wanting.

Bill Wynne
07-06-2008, 08:21 PM
Here is the short form of the Keating Five Scandal. The democratic prosecutor in the case recommended that charges against John McCain not be brought but in a very rare turn of events he was overruled by the Democrat controlled Senate Ethics Committee.

The Keating Five scandal from 1989 implicated five senators in another corruption probe. Democrats Dennis DeConcini of Arizona, Donald Riegle of Michigan, John Glenn of Ohio and Alan Cranston of California, and Republican John McCain of Arizona, were accused of strong-arming federal officials to back off their investigation of Charles Keating, former chairman of the Lincoln Savings and Loan association. In exchange, the senators reportedly received close to $1.3 million in campaign contributions.

The Senate Ethics Committee concluded that Glenn and McCain's involvement in the scheme was minimal and dropped the charges against them. In August 1991, the committee ruled that the other three senators had acted improperly in interfering with the Federal Home Loan Banking Board's investigation.

Concho Bill

vicvanb
07-06-2008, 11:20 PM
You have misspelled Koginams name three times, he has been nice about it but you are insulting him now, is this how you want the members here to see you, as a petty little boy who takes cheap shots?

A regular contributor here whose last name rhymes with "Pease" consistently and deliberately misspells my name--and one of his buddies posted how cool he thought it was to do that.

Maybe the Super Moderators should eliminate this and similar cheap shots?

koginam
07-07-2008, 12:52 AM
RStiefel
Please tell your friend I'm sorry I don't have a Jewish enough name for you, since I don't know your real name or that you were German I wasn't messing with you. Would you feel better if I showed my birth certificate.
I am proud of my name and my religion and resent your accusations although I should have expected it from you.
Now you try to make yourself out the victim a liberal tactic good luck with that, I bested you in this argument so you went personal all it did was show you to be fool.


I didn't acknowledge your apology because I didn't feel it was censer, which I think you just proved my point.

I don't believe you have a Jewish friend named Ira Kaplan that was a holocaust survivor if you did he would know their are Jews with English names, German names even African names. You disgust me with your reference to the holocaust I have family that carry the numbers on their arms, and I lost uncles and ants to it, I will put you on my ignore list as I feel you are a racist and an elitist,

Bill Wynne
I am sorry if I have overstepped the rules I will understand if you need to discipline me for my statements I just hope you won't make it permanent, thanks jay Koginam