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View Full Version : Liberals realize social plans fail!



Mr. D
06-26-2008, 10:26 AM
One of the things that I see in so many on this forum is the resistance to understand that liberals try to make things better and are willing to admit that their fixes don't always work.

Example: The federal section 8 legislation that tried to get rid of inner city slum projects failed because it provided funds for those living in poverty and crime in condensed areas where people were just barely making it themselves because that was all that can be afforded. Those who moved were still in the same situation and were moved away from inner city support systems and they wound up in a new lower class neighborhood and they helped it deteriorate. The result is that poverty and crime moved out in rings to poorer area of the suburbs.

The point is that well meaning projects don't always work. Educated liberals realize that, but doing nothing but building more prisons and blaming on the Devil isn't working either. That's why conservatives and liberals have to stop pointing the finger at each other and blaming each other. Telling a kid whose mother is on welfare sitting in front of the TV and his father is in prison should just get his act together is unrealistic. Where's he supposed to get his values, on TV? His parents can't give him the values and support they don't have or even understand so he will just be another generation of dependent problems.

If we wanted to do so, we could make sure every American child leaves school with a vocational skill that is immediately hire able on the job market. Traditional conservative approaches don't support that, but we spend the money it would take in police, courts, welfare and prisons.

Liberals are often wrong, but at least they try to find answers to problems that are not getting fixed with conservative old school approaches. My three dogs do much better when I teach them rather than beat them. I know, it's just a bleeding heart, wild liberal idea! ;)

Dave B
06-26-2008, 10:41 AM
What you are saying is ture of both liberals and conservatives. Sometimes your best laid plans fail. All you can do is brush yourself off and keep trying.
I often have the feeling that when some conservatives plan ( G Bush) doesn't live up expectations his enemies are quick to say it was ill concieved, he's just stupid, its personal gain, etc. In fact, conservative plans are like all others, they mean well and sometimes they work and sometimes they don't.

pendennis
06-26-2008, 12:11 PM
While most people, liberal and conservative, want the best for everyone, the similarities end there.

Liberals have relied on Federal law and the courts, to force the population into accepting social programs which, over time, help very little. Forced altruism is socialism.

The Federal government alone, has spent over $4 trillion on failed social programs since the mid-1960's. Yet, few, of these programs have been discontinued. Instead, these programs have seeded beaucracies that are far out of control, and have become their own perpetual motion machines. The expenditures in the several states may very well approach these same levels.

True conservatives know that individuals are the best judges for what is good for themselves and others. While we, too, acknowledge that efforts don't always turn out for the best, we don't insist that failed programs will work, and we only need more time and money to make them do so. There is some truth that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, but expecting a different result. This has been the upshot of a myriad Federal and state programs enacted to "help the poor".

We also believe in the rule of law. When the people's duly elected representatives enact laws fitting within the literal framework of state and Federal constitutions, it is not up to a court system to find clauses where none exist. As an example, nowhere in the U.S. Constitution does it state that there is a "right to privacy". Yet, this so-called right seems to find its way into the legal system. Further, Justice Jackson grievously erred when he stated that a "wall of separation" concerning religion, existed in the First Amendment. No such language exists.

So, please, don't posit yourself as being a "nice guy; and please like me and my dog". As long as you believe that the government at any level has our best interests at heart, you and your ilk are hopelessly naive and dangerous to individual liberty and freedom.

Dennis

tylerw02
06-26-2008, 12:12 PM
Seems to me when liberal plans fail, they resort to "it was the thought that counts".

See social security, schools, the war on drugs, the war on poverty...and so on and so forth. They sustain failing systems rather than admit failure.

Phil Deese
06-26-2008, 12:40 PM
they say that EVIL Bush messed it up!!:(:(:(

nrb
06-26-2008, 07:46 PM
Over, and over, and over by the liberals. Just remember the wasted taxes and wasted lives with these wasted programs. For example, bussing. It still goes on and has been proven to cause harm and not help any problems.

Peter
06-26-2008, 08:39 PM
One of the things that I see in so many on this forum is the resistance to understand that liberals try to make things better and are willing to admit that their fixes don't always work. ;)
Thats lovely, now if they'll only admit that they dont know any more than the rest of us do, quit trying to solve the worlds problems with the money they dont have , get their heads out of their collective a$$es with regard to illegal immigration, and apologize for all the money they've wasted.... :rolleyes:.... Nevermind ,this post just made me realize how much I dislike those hippie morons and how much discourse I dont want to have with them.:mad:

Jay, Idaho
06-26-2008, 09:31 PM
Telling a kid whose mother is on welfare sitting in front of the TV and his father is in prison should just get his act together is unrealistic. Where's he supposed to get his values, on TV? His parents can't give him the values and support they don't have or even understand so he will just be another generation of dependent problems.

If we wanted to do so, we could make sure every American child leaves school with a vocational skill that is immediately hire able on the job market. Traditional conservative approaches don't support that, but we spend the money it would take in police, courts, welfare and prisons.
;)
Mr. D,

As an educator, you know that one half of the populace has an IQ of less than 100. Maybe more than half, if we factor in the poor pre-natal and early child care deficencies found in so many of the people born into the scenario that you outline above.
So, I ask you, where are the millions of jobs that can be filled by those with IQs of less than 100, even with vocational schooling for all of them? I support vocational schools because college is not for everybody, I'll go so far as to say that too many young people go to college today. That has diluted the quality of education at the college level.
I have no answers, other than to discourage breeding among the people that are adding to the problem. Sadly, they breed the most.

Jay, Idaho

Phil Deese
06-27-2008, 07:35 AM
Sad but true!! That points out something..............if the mentally challenged can learn how to breed so easily, why do we spend our tax dollars on sex education???:mad::mad::mad:

crb
06-27-2008, 08:18 AM
I don't think I have EVER heard the libs say that some plan of theirs has failed and maybe they need to go to plan b. I need a documented example of this claim.

Many lib socialist plans fail forever, they just keep throwing money at them because they can't tolerate the political pain that would be associated with taking away 'free money' from their constituents.

Mr. D
06-27-2008, 08:31 AM
So, please, don't posit yourself as being a "nice guy; and please like me and my dog". As long as you believe that the government at any level has our best interests at heart, you and your ilk are hopelessly naive and dangerous to individual liberty and freedom.

Dennis

(1.) So should I assume that "you are the only nice guy" and based on the above quote you are part of a militia that is against all government and will try to overthrow it?

I don't assume that, but when you say that all government is against our interests aren't you sounding a little of the backwoods militia crazy? Building any bombs?

(2.) I try to be a nice guy, but please get over yourself believing I deeply need to be liked and approved by the wonderful you!

Mr. D
06-27-2008, 08:47 AM
I don't think I have EVER heard the libs say that some plan of theirs has failed and maybe they need to go to plan b. I need a documented example of this claim.

Many lib socialist plans fail forever, they just keep throwing money at them because they can't tolerate the political pain that would be associated with taking away 'free money' from their constituents.

Maybe you are only listening to one side! Many have said it! I just did! Why do you think Clinton worked with Republicans to make changes in welfare programs? I hear Conservatives saying the Iraq War was a mistake now, while others continue to defend it! You have to listen carefully!

The point is that liberals and conservatives have to work together rather than fighting each other. What I see is liberals trying to solve problems and conservatives holding their breathes and kicking their feet instead of joining forces and helping create good legislation. Both sides wind up saying "My way, or we filibuster!" A president or a party that tries to shove their agenda down the opposition party's throat rarely gets anything accomplished in the long run.

The three largest problems that cause our poor government are

(1.) "Gerrymandering" that allows politicians to be way to the right or left with their positions because their whole area has been carved out as Democratic or Republican.

(2.) Not having Government Financing of Campaigns to get the bribes and returned favors out of politics! Take a dime go to jail! A bag of money from anyone is not Free Speech, it is a bribe! Speech is speech! Money is not speech!

(3.) The ignorance of the average American who in the past could sleep in class, learn nothing and still get a good job at the GM Auto plant is over! Those days are over, but our children have not been taught that message by their parents. Asian immigrant kids do just fine in our failing schools and become your doctor! Why is that??? If you know nothing when you leave high school an illegal immigrant can do your job much cheaper and without an attitude. Every high school graduate should come out with a high tech trade with a job waiting at graduation, period. Most conservatives won't pay for that because their core conservative beliefs would rather spend even more money on police, jails, prisons and welfare. Punish the troublemakers! They would rather use that money policing the world for Exxon Mobil and building more, and more and more prisons! If a hammer doesn't work, get a bigger hammer!

Liberals would rather provide the high tech education as many countries in N. Europe and save money on locking up our citizens. They would rather use newer methods of other countries to change criminals rather than store them in prisons where they have to join gangs to keep from being killed! Visit prisons! I had to as part of my job! They guarantee crime increases! I train my three dogs to behave well, rather that try to punish them and save their souls! It works much better, but most conservatives don't seem to agree with that! It costs more money up front, but saves much more on the back end!

tylerw02
06-27-2008, 11:36 AM
The point is that liberals and conservatives have to work together rather than fighting each other.

That's why you're supporting the MOST liberal member of the senate for president who has NEVER worked with the right. Meanwhile, you are speaking ill of John McCain, a senator with a more liberal record than some democrats who has a long history of reaching across the isle and working with the left.

Mr D, preach your own advice or leave. You're quickly turning into a hypocrite.

Chuck Bogardus
06-27-2008, 12:01 PM
Son, the problem is that with gun control, they admit that their programs haven't helped, and have essentially created "easy victim" zones. And rather than step back and look at the problems they've created, they scream that the programs just weren't enough...

A few years back, I proofread and typeset a grant application for a group of inner-city "free clinics." This was a big deal to them - lotta money on the line. And one of their heavy goals was that they intended to "eliminate mortality within our service region."

I guess they woulda required anyone living around 'em to go somewhere else to croak.

Phil Deese
06-27-2008, 12:44 PM
On the second amendment...............he sais he's all for it..............as long as any mayor doesn't want you to have it!!! Is that like saying" I was for it before I was against it"???:o:o:o

pendennis
06-27-2008, 03:44 PM
(1.) So should I assume that "you are the only nice guy" and based on the above quote you are part of a militia that is against all government and will try to overthrow it?

I don't assume that, but when you say that all government is against our interests aren't you sounding a little of the backwoods militia crazy? Building any bombs?

(2.) I try to be a nice guy, but please get over yourself believing I deeply need to be liked and approved by the wonderful you!

1) - I never said I was the "only nice guy". I know quite a few, even some liberals.

2) - The U.S. Constitution was written as a limiter on what the founding fathers knew that government would become as it got larger. Like any modern liberal, you automatically assume that conservatives are some type of backwoods hick. And, no, I've never built a bomb.

3) - You may be a nice guy. I don't know, because I've never met you; but your words in the initial post come off self-serving, as have most of your posts.

Dennis