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gt40
06-26-2008, 12:50 AM
These are the accurate figures - Check them out,
but more importantly - remember them on Election Day (To verify = Congressional Research Link at bottom )




The source for the data is a report prepared for Congress, link at the
bottom. Please take time to read the email and the source document.

Military Losses, 1980 thru 2007
Whatever your politics, however you lean, and however you feel about the
current administration, this report should open some eyes. Military losses,
1980 through 2007.

As tragic as the loss of any member of the US Armed Forces is, consider
the following statistics:
The annual fatalities of military members while
actively serving in the armed forces from 1980 through 2006 - by any cause.
1980 ......... 2,392 ( Carter Year )
1981 .......... 2,380 ( Reagan Year)
1984 .......... 1,999 ( Reagan Year)
1988 .......... 1,819 ( Reagan Year)
1989 .......... 1,636 ( George H W Year )
1990 .......... 1,508 ( George H W Year )
1991 ......... 1,787 ( George H W Year )
1992 .......... 1,293 ( George H W Year )
1993 .......... 1,213 ( Clinton Year)
1994 .......... 1,075 ( Clinton Year)
1995 ......... 2,465 ( Clinton Year)
1996 .......... 2,318 ( Clinton Year)
1997 .......... 817 ( Clinton Year)
1998 .......... 2,252 ( Clinton Year)
1999 .......... 1,984 ( Clinton Year)
2000 ...........1,983 ( Clinton Year)
2001 ............ 890 ( George W Year )
2002 .......... 1,007 ( George W Year )
2003 .......... 1,410 ( George W Year )
2004 .......... 1,887 ( George W Year )
2005 ............ 919 ( George W Year )
2006............. 920 ( George W Year )
2007............. 899 ( George W Year )


Clinton years (1993-2000): 14,107 deaths
George W years (2001-2007): 7,932 deaths

If you are surprised when you look at these figures, so was I. These
figures mean that the loss from the two latest conflicts in the Middle East
Are LESS than the loss of military personnel during Bill Clinton 's presidency;
when America wasn't even involved in a war! (Unless you include Bosnia or
the disgrace of Mogadishu, Somalia when Clinton failed to respond to terrorists;
Remember "Blackhawk Down"?)

And, I was even more shocked when I read that in 1980, during the reign
of President (Nobel Peace Prize winner) Jimmy Carter , there were 2,392 US
military fatalities! From what? How?

I think that these figures indicate that many members of our Media and our
Politicians will pick and choose the information on which they report. Of course we all
know that they present only those 'facts' which support their agenda-driven
reporting. But why do so many of them march in lock-step to twist the truth? Where do so many
of them get their agenda? Obviously there is one shared agenda. Could it be from the
most powerful Democratic family of the decade?

Do you want further proof? Consider the latest census of Americans. It
shows the following FACTS about the distribution of American citizens,
by race:

European descent ..........................69.12%
Hispanic...................................12.5%
Black .................... .................12.3%
Asian....................................... 3.7%
Native American............................. 1.0%
Other...................................... 2.6%

Many media lead us to feel the military death ratio is off balanced
compared to the distribution by race in America . Here are the fatalities by RACE over the
past three years in Iraqi Freedom. Do the comparison yourself.

European descent (white) ...........74.31%
Hispanic.............................10.74%
Black ............................... 9.67%
Asian............................... 1.81%
Native American..................... 1.09%
Other................................ 0.33%

I was surprised again. Our mainstream media continues to spin these figures
(for political gain). Nothing more. It's all about politics.

I hope that during the time between now and November, intelligent
Americans can decipher:
the facts from the spin,
the spinners from the leaders,
those who seek even more power from those that seek justice,
and the dividers from the uniters.

Over the next months let's be good listeners and see and hear who tries to
Divide our nation; and who wants to unite our nation. Who wants to control how our
Money is spent and who wants our money spent the way we would spend it. Who seeks
power and who seeks justice? Who spins the facts and who is genuine.

(These statistics are published by Congressional Research Service, and
they may be confirmed by anyone at:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL32492.pdf)

"History does not entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." -
Dwight D. Eisenhower

Mr. D
06-26-2008, 01:02 AM
Did your stats show killed in COMBAT or just "any cause"? Big difference if you are a Major in the Pentagon that dies from a heart attack than a soldier killed in combat!

Fact: In the year 1965 seven soldiers of the California National guard died in a one week period. All where accidents were in combat training in the Mojave Desert. I was there. Most were because of carelessness with military vehicles. Four were killed speeding on a dirt road in a Jeep. So what does it mean?

Fact: more than 96.7% of the people of the U.S. will die!

I think a less partisan statistic would list how many actually died in combat.

Also when discussing terms such as "putting soldiers in harms way" and "cutting and running" go back and discussion the soldiers who died under Reagan and how he packed up and left as he should have!

Let's try to be objective with statistics. I suggest you may be doing what you complained about.

Phil Deese
06-26-2008, 06:00 AM
We probably did loose a lot to heart attacks during the Clinton years, when they found out we elected a draft dodger!! D....I thought lib's were concerned about ALL military deaths....not just the ones that made Bush look bad!!!!

Bill Wynne
06-26-2008, 06:21 AM
The information provided shows deaths of all kinds. There is a surprising number of suicides. Peace is hell or maybe early adulthood is.

Concho Bill

RayfromTX
06-26-2008, 08:33 AM
Calendar
Year
Total
Deaths Accident Hostile
Action Homicide Illness Pending Self
Inflicted
Terrorist
Attack
Undetermined
1980 2,392 1,556 174 419 231 1 11
1981 2,380 1,524 145 457 241 13
1982 2,319 1,495 108 446 254 16
1983 2,465 1,413 18 115 419 218 263 19
1984 1,999 1,293 1 84 374 225 6 16
1985 2,252 1,476 111 363 275 5 22
1986 1,984 1,199 2 103 384 269 27
1987 1,983 1,172 37 104 383 260 2 25
1988 1,819 1,080 90 321 285 17 26
1989 1,636 1,000 23 58 294 224 37
1990 1,507 880 74 277 232 1 43
1991 1,787 931 147 112 308 256 33
1992 1,293 676 109 252 238 1 17
1993 1,213 632 86 221 236 29 9
1994 1,075 544 83 206 232 10
1995 1,040 538 67 174 250 7 4
1996 974 527 1 52 173 188 19 14
1997 817 433 42 170 159 13
1998 827 445 26 168 10 161 3 14
1999 796 436 37 150 13 145 15
2000 758 398 34 138 151 17 20
2001 891 434 3 49 187 1 141 55 21
2002 999 542 18 53 194 4 162 26
2003 1,228 576 343 42 234 5 186 24
2004 1,874 605 739 45 272 4 201 7
2005 1,942 644 739 52 289 16 175 26
2006 1,858 530 761 42 247 85 192 18

The numbers you posted are different than the numbers in the report. I pulled these numbers from page 8

Russ Hatch
06-26-2008, 09:17 AM
I stand in awe of your logic and math skills. You are 100% correct when you say that more than 96.7% of Americans will die.
Russ

Phil Deese
06-26-2008, 09:33 AM
become eternal liberals!!:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Mr. D
06-26-2008, 09:50 AM
We probably did loose a lot to heart attacks during the Clinton years, when they found out we elected a draft dodger!! D....I thought lib's were concerned about ALL military deaths....not just the ones that made Bush look bad!!!!

Phil,

You are back to the same old partisan remarks full of "libs" and partisan cheap shots not worth responding to! Aren't you ever going to learn how to discuss a subject? :confused:

Mr. D
06-26-2008, 10:01 AM
RayfromTX,

The category of "Action Homicide Illness Pending Self" is certainly vague. :confused:

Did your data separate numbers killed strictly by actual combat? That would seem to be the number that would have meaning, or are we to assume that the Iraq war is saving lives and should never be ended??? I assume not.

So, what is the conclusion you draw from the numbers?

Mr. D
06-26-2008, 10:04 AM
I stand in awe of your logic and math skills. You are 100% correct when you say that more than 96.7% of Americans will die.
Russ

I glad you enjoyed my example of a meaningless statistic! :D

RStiefel
06-26-2008, 10:25 AM
You seem to have neglected the death toll for 2008 thus far. Over 4,000 and we have a lot of time left in the year. ( BUSCH ADMINISTRATION )

Mr. D
06-26-2008, 10:41 AM
You seem to have neglected the death toll for 2008 thus far. Over 4,000 and we have a lot of time left in the year. ( BUSCH ADMINISTRATION )

The number of wounded military who will need VA assistance is a number missing that might be very informative!! Wonder why?

I believe the highest cost in VA expenditures for WW II was in 1979. Think what the cost will be for Vietnam and Iraq since we are able to save so many more seriously wounded. Our leaders seem to take the cost of war so lightly. Remember it was going to be minimal and the reconstruction of Iraq would be covered by their own oil sales. Well, we went to war/occupation and it sure has had an effect on the $5,19 I pay for diesel fuel. We should have given Saddam a billion dollars to move to another country and saved a mint!

RStiefel
06-26-2008, 01:16 PM
The number of wounded is staggering. I won't quote figures, because no one knows how accurate they are as of now. It isn't only the money spent in Iraq, but also the 10 Billion plus dollars we have given to Pakistan to help fight the war on terror that has not been used for that purpose (according to our government) after an investigation. Though I have not agreed with our current president, I continue to support him because he is our country's leader. I will support our next president as well, whether it is Obamastan or McBusch.

tomgrace50
06-26-2008, 01:40 PM
MR D i think you are softening up:)

Phil Deese
06-26-2008, 02:22 PM
I'll try to soften-up a bit. I feel like your coming over to our side!!!

RStiefel
06-26-2008, 02:37 PM
These are the figures from Camp Pendleton:

Since war began - 4110 deaths
" mission accomplished - 3971
" capture of Saddam - 3649
" hand over - 3251
" election 1/31/05 - 2673
unofficial wounded - 100,000
Afghanistan - 532 deaths
Iraqi deaths - 1,225,898

gt40
06-26-2008, 03:23 PM
Something to ponder about:

What if the liberals and tree huggers were "FOR" drilling and refining our own resourses here within our boarders and we did not import fuel maybe we would not have been in all these problems all around the world today. Maybe we would not need to have our influences projected around the world.

I think I have finally seen the light!!! It's all the liberal's fault to all our problems today!!!

"Aim small miss small",

gt40

RStiefel
06-26-2008, 05:08 PM
all of the companies that USED to manufacture here continued to, and if you would stop buying your clothes, appliances, etc. etc. etc. from made in other countries. Had we done this with oil here on our own shores, we would have depleted it many years ago. If WE were so smart about how to run this country, we should be doing it. Instead of voting for another politician, why don'T you run for office.
Things are as they are. Blaming someone else certainly isn't going to change it.

twalker
06-26-2008, 05:09 PM
You seem to have neglected the death toll for 2008 thus far. Over 4,000 and we have a lot of time left in the year. ( BUSCH ADMINISTRATION )

Is that the Beer death toll?

twalker
06-26-2008, 07:56 PM
twalker. Is that what the death and injuries to our troops means to you? A joke?

If you criticize some one you may as well spell the name correctly.

Which set of numbers would "you" have me believe?

Mr. D
06-27-2008, 09:26 AM
I'll try to soften-up a bit. I feel like your coming over to our side!!!

I've been trying to tell you from the beginning we should not have sides! It could be that finally you guys are starting to listen to my views and realize we all have the same goals for our country! We just sometimes disagree which road to take to get to them! I've always respected conservative views, I just have both conservative and liberal views based on the issue! I've just never been one to follow the crowd whether led by a liberal or a Conservative.

I was against the Vietnamese War, but I would slug anyone in the face that spit at a soldier. I wore an Army uniform for six months in the middle of the war and hitchhiked home every other weekend to see my girlfriend/wife! Those terrible Californians treated me great and I could get home faster with my thumb up on the highway than on an airplane. Those who mistreated soldiers were a very, very small minority of arses in front of TV cameras!

Once I did take a plane (on standby ticket) with buddy soldier and we were the only two on the regulated flight. Two pretty, young gal flight attendants put us in 1st Class and sat down and had our filet and wine dinner with us! I didn't tell my girlfriend/wife about that until just recently! I'm not that dumb!:D

LHSmith
06-29-2008, 10:55 PM
These are the figures from Camp Pendleton:

Since war began - 4110 deaths
" mission accomplished - 3971
" capture of Saddam - 3649
" hand over - 3251
" election 1/31/05 - 2673
unofficial wounded - 100,000
Afghanistan - 532 deaths
Iraqi deaths - 1,225,898




Is "Camp Pendleton" not part of DOD?


"unofficial wounded" ???? what is that??? The official number was 30,182.

And you just said " I won't quote figures because no one knows how accurate they are "


Iraqi deaths -1,225,898 ????

This figure does not seem plausible, .....yet it's a precise number,............hhmmmmm

Are our "smart bombs" THAT indiscriminate?

Does this number reflect civilians or those in Saddams military?

Does this number include those that were killed by Saddam and his regime?

Provide us with more details on your source of information.........as these "figures" are quite disturbing.

There has never been a war so micro-managed as the "war on terror" where more soldiers have been apprehensive to pull the trigger than ever before.

RStiefel
06-30-2008, 12:47 AM
My son happens to be stationed out of Pendleton. He is in his 2nd moth of his third tour in Afghanistan. The information provided by his base commanders PR Office is quite up to date. If you want to argue or dispute the figures, I suggest you contact Camp Pendleton. I'm not going to get into a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.

Mr. D
06-30-2008, 03:44 AM
Something to ponder about:

It's all the liberal's fault to all our problems today!!!

gt40

I think I've heard that before!! :D

LHSmith
07-01-2008, 03:28 PM
My son happens to be stationed out of Pendleton. He is in his 2nd moth of his third tour in Afghanistan. The information provided by his base commanders PR Office is quite up to date. If you want to argue or dispute the figures, I suggest you contact Camp Pendleton. I'm not going to get into a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.




..................Pendleton MUST have been OUTSOURCED


I'm sorry to keep hounding on this,......but I read the Camp Pendleton website over and over and it just links me to the DOD...............perhaps you have a contact at the base that has privy to your stats?

RStiefel
07-01-2008, 04:10 PM
We live 13 minutes from the east gate. Because my son is stationed there, it's very easy to access the base commander. They have nothing to hide. Do you really believe any military base in this country is going to provide information on a public forum such as the internet? Get real!!!

LHSmith
07-01-2008, 04:23 PM
We live 13 minutes from the east gate. Because my son is stationed there, it's very easy to access the base commander. They have nothing to hide. Do you really believe any military base in this country is going to provide information on a public forum such as the internet? Get real!!!








................Do YOU really believe each military base has different casualty stats?................They DO have their own website AND they do have some information on it avaiable to the public (me).

I just question your stats and urge others to do same.

RStiefel
07-01-2008, 04:25 PM
to start trouble eh LH?

HovisKM
07-01-2008, 04:30 PM
We live 13 minutes from the east gate. Because my son is stationed there, it's very easy to access the base commander. They have nothing to hide. Do you really believe any military base in this country is going to provide information on a public forum such as the internet? Get real!!!

Yes they will, why...because it was the pentagon that gave us the internet. It was designed and still used by ALL Millitary bases in the world (Depots, Bases, etc), even most Forward Operating Bases. Sometimes you can access the info, sometimes you can't, depends on a lot of factors.

Heck, I was in the Army for 24+years and I've never seen accurate infomation come from a millitary base or command. Just the way it is. I seen that someone wanted to quote the number killed in Iraqi, do you know how many were non-combat related since Mr. D. wanted to bring that up?? It's around 2000. It doesn't really matter whether they died in combat or not, their dead !!!! At least dieing in combat is more honorable than a car accident, at least it is for a real soldier.


Hovis

tylerw02
07-01-2008, 04:42 PM
I've been trying to tell you from the beginning we should not have sides! It could be that finally you guys are starting to listen to my views and realize we all have the same goals for our country! We just sometimes disagree which road to take to get to them! I've always respected conservative views, I just have both conservative and liberal views based on the issue! I've just never been one to follow the crowd whether led by a liberal or a Conservative.

Really? You have views based on the issues? Why can't you support somebody who does the same thing?

You say you want somebody that reaches across the isle, you want somebody that works with the other side and that neither extreme is good. You support Obama, the most liberal member of the Senate. He has zero record of working with the right. He's an extremist.

Meanwhile, you won't vote for McCain. He's a very moderate senator. He's got more liberal of a record than some liberals. He has a strong record of working with the left.

You say you want one thing, but won't vote for it when you have it? Why is that? Maybe its your extreme liberal bias you try to hide.

Meanwhile, you keep calling for public election finance. You say that will end corruption in the system. Guess what, your boy, Obama wants no part of it.

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/06...inance-system/

If that issue was so important for you, why can't you vote for the man who shares your stated values?

If you are a man of your convictions, a man of your word, you are obligated to vote for John McCain and not Obama.

LHSmith
07-01-2008, 04:44 PM
to start trouble eh LH?




.............for greener, NO strike that, REDDER pastures (as in conservative)



RS just a word of advice:

Our spat was always over dis-information.

May I suggest: 1. check facts before posting
2. proof-read what you post -before submitting

RStiefel
07-01-2008, 04:46 PM
Might I suggest you adhere to your own advise LH?

Chuck Bogardus
07-01-2008, 04:48 PM
Just a coupla thoughts here...

Afghanistan is more or less cleared out - the population didn't really want the Taliban folks there anyway... And it was a generally coherent population.

Iraq, on the other hand, has been at war with itself and the surrounding area for centuries. I can believe the Iraq casualty count, because they -really- seem to like killing each other. Add in the numbers of "insurgents" who have traveled there for Jihad, and I'm just glad we're doing it over there.

I have to agree with Lieberman's thoughts that the new president will be tested. And if it is Obama, I suspect that we'll have a mixture of waffling indecision, and severe overreaction... I suspect that the harshest measures will be within the United States, probably around restrictions on travel. And they'll send stern letters overseas.

Mr. D
07-02-2008, 10:38 AM
On the other hand if we elect McCain we know what the policies will be, that is more NeoCon militarist solutions to foreign policy. So far what Osama Bin Ladin said he planned to do to the U.S. is working perfectly. Go back and read what his spoken game plan was! He spelled it out! 9/11 was intended to put us right were we are today! If we had gone after Al Qaeda with all our resources instead of the NeoCon nation building in Iraq that Bush said he was against, things might be much better today! We played right into Bin Ladin's hands according to his own words. McCain will continue to do the same! McCain gave honorable service to his country, but his imprisonment didn't seem to allow him to learn from our mistakes in Vietnam. I don't think he is objective about how that worked out for us! He believes when a hammer doesn't work, get a bigger hammer. His message for the future is the same old Bush "Freedom" with very few common sense details. It's just possible that people in other countries don't think like us and nation building doesn't work until they start building a nation like ours. Polls have shown many Muslims don't want a democracy! They want a theocracy with their sect in charge! Many Christian Americans are not so different in their opinions about our government!!

tylerw02
07-02-2008, 10:53 AM
Can you not address the issues, Mr D?

HovisKM
07-02-2008, 12:18 PM
On the other hand if we elect McCain we know what the policies will be, that is more NeoCon militarist solutions to foreign policy. So far what Osama Bin Ladin said he planned to do to the U.S. is working perfectly. Go back and read what his spoken game plan was! He spelled it out! 9/11 was intended to put us right were we are today! If we had gone after Al Qaeda with all our resources instead of the NeoCon nation building in Iraq that Bush said he was against, things might be much better today! We played right into Bin Ladin's hands according to his own words. McCain will continue to do the same! McCain gave honorable service to his country, but his imprisonment didn't seem to allow him to learn from our mistakes in Vietnam. I don't think he is objective about how that worked out for us! He believes when a hammer doesn't work, get a bigger hammer. His message for the future is the same old Bush "Freedom" with very few common sense details. It's just possible that people in other countries don't think like us and nation building doesn't work until they start building a nation like ours. Polls have shown many Muslims don't want a democracy! They want a theocracy with their sect in charge! Many Christian Americans are not so different in their opinions about our government!!


The reason what Osama said is working is because he knew/knows the liberals in this country will never allow us to finish the job the way it needs to be. YOU and YOUR lib friends are playing into his hands, no me. The resurgance of the Taliban and their forces in Afghan is a direct result of letting NATO and the United Nations start making the decisions for us over there. The U.S. military has been warning of a resurgance there for the last couple of years but we are trying to keep the peace instead of making the peace, there is a big difference between the two.

Hovis

Chuck Bogardus
07-02-2008, 12:22 PM
Psyops... Tell the enemy you LIKE what he is doing that is hurting you, and maybe he'll do something else.

Phil Deese
07-02-2008, 02:25 PM
One thing I was taught in the Corps is the only thing the enemy understands is power!! If we are weak and he senses that you are already at a disadvantage. It's hard to make friends with someone whose ultimate goal is to kill you. I think McCain will be a strong leader...he understands how the enemies of this country think....he spent 3 or 4 years with them. Obama on the otherhand has never done anything noteworthy in his 40 some-odd years on this planet.......except show he has very poor judgement at picking friends!!

As far as the United Nations is concerned......the building needs to be leveled and occupants need to be evicted!!

Mr. D
07-02-2008, 02:47 PM
It's hard to make friends with someone whose ultimate goal is to kill you.



Phil,

That's why the Japanese fought to the death and committed suicide in the Pacific Islands. They were taught to fear and hate us too! Your approach guarantees war for eternity!

It may also be hard to make friends with countries that go half way around the world to bring you a war and occupy your country when you have never attacked them! Did I miss when Iraq attacked the U.S. with their WMD we can't find?

Maybe this country has been led down the B.S. path just like other countries. How many questions do we ask when our president asks us to attack a country that posed us no real threat! How many things did Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld tells us that turned out to be accurate? Pretty low %, but some still listen to the pro war line! The only answer they can imagine is military force. That's why many of us won't support McCain and another decade of wars. Iraq, then maybe Iran, then how about Syria then .................

Phil Deese
07-02-2008, 03:58 PM
How soon we forget!! As I recall the UN served several resolutions that Mr. Hussin either chose to ignore or refused to obey. Mr. Bush even went to the UN to get us in there to examine. All of the democrats had been saying for 2 years before the 2000 election that Mr Hussin had WMD's...were was that evil Bush then...re-hashing old facts just seems to make the water muddier!! Remember the old saying" Repeat things long enough and people will start believing it" I think you have feel into that trap!! I guess Israel will wait for the "Do Nothing" congress before they attack Iran....don't bet on it!!

Back to the original discussion....this country needs a strong and decisive leader.....Obama doesn't fill the shoes!! An empty suit at best!!

HovisKM
07-02-2008, 04:48 PM
SOOOO..according to you Mr D. we shouldn't have defeated the Japs....that's makes as much sense as everything else you say.

Hovis

brad541thb
07-02-2008, 05:43 PM
D,

We learned after WWI that you can't just sit iddley by and let the rest of the world do as they please. Eventually it will come back to bite you and maybe even destroy you if you look at Germany and how they bounced back to fight us again in WWII. Now if you ask me, we pounded them in WWI, and cleaned up the mess all to well by helping rebuild their country. Most other countries would have not done so, and probably would have taken over Germany. Our government chose to turn their heads about what was going on and tried to stay out of it only to realize the enemy is not running, but coming to get you eventually. You have got to learn to fight fire with fire when it comes time. And when you don't your fire may become only a spark. Then it is too late.

I'm not the biggest Bush fan, I've said that many of times here. But I will give him credit about making America safer than it was since 9/11. He also under his power captured Suddam Hussein.