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Bill Wynne
06-19-2008, 09:29 PM
We know that one political party has always been against anything we do that could help with this energy crisis that we find ourselves in.

Why do you think that is? What do they think can be gained? Could it be that some of their members are beginning to hear the cries of the people and would like to change their position on this matter but don't know how?

Concho Bill

Yote
06-19-2008, 09:33 PM
Bill, I think the party that doesn't want to help the energy crisis is biding their time. I think they want things to get worse and worse and the American people to get more bitter and more bitter. This is an election year, and they will do what's necessary to get their candidate elected whether the people suffer or not.

jackie schmidt
06-19-2008, 09:41 PM
William Jefferson Clinton won the Presidency running on a slogan coined by James Carville. "It's the Economy, Stupid'.
Well, I have a gut feeling that the Democrats might have painted themselves into a corner. $4+ a gallon Gas will trump just about everything this comming election, and The Democrats are singing the same old tune. They vote against drilling, against Nuclear, and against Coal. But many Americans will ask, "how the heck am I going to get to work next week".
Do you think the Chineese have figured out how to slant drill right over into Florida's Waters.
Think how stupid we must appear to the rest of the World. We are sitting on Energy Reserves that are the envy of the World, and we won't even develop them because an idiot named Al Gore has conned America into beliveing that there is something evil in living the American Dream.
Norway, one of the more Green Countrys on the Planet, has more offshore platforms per population than any other country.
France produces 75 percent of it's electricity with Nuclear.
God, are we stupid.........jackie

Big Al
06-19-2008, 10:27 PM
Get real. They are just waiting for one world government. Then it will be OK. When they have made every last one of the Human race a slave to their ideas, things will get better.

The folks that think Jesus is going to jerk them up to the sky and save them, will be in for a surprise. "Unless those days be shortened, no flesh would survive".

Yes, I do believe both sides of the aisle is Mankind's enemy. A product of greed?

Rock63
06-19-2008, 11:12 PM
To blame our situation on one party or the other is to prove that you have zero understanding of the simple reality: Both parties, all of them, are united in their failure to act, united in their implementation of barricades to prevent drilling, united in their refusal to build refineries, united in their refusal to permit alternative energy projects like Nuke, Wind, Geothermal, etc.

If you want to play the blame game, then point at yourself. You are the bozo who stood by, watched it happen, voted for the turkeys, and never made a big deal out of these issues that now you think are important.

To blame one party or the other tells me that you fail my political IQ test and should not have the right to vote or own guns. You are drinking the coolaid, you have bought into the concept that the Dems and the Repub's are actually very different creatures, when in fact they both work together to take your money and mine.

Quit drinking the party coolaid gentlemen, it is time to wake up to the sad sad reality that our political system is disaster that does not work for us.

RayfromTX
06-20-2008, 07:01 AM
The EPA was created by the Nixon administration. The offshore oil exploration ban was pushed and signed by George HW Bush. It was extended by Bill Clinton. Every year, congress has taken active steps to continue its existence.

Until 1973, the Texas railroad commission controlled the price of oil. That was the year that they met for their monthly meeting and decided to let the taps to Texas oil flow at full volume as there was no longer any surplus production in Texas. That surplus had always been used to control the price of oil. 1973 was the year that the Texas railroad commission lost it's powerful position in the energy market and became a bit player.

In the 80s, the energy market collapsed due to three things, a global recession that reduced demand, energy conservation measures brought on by the 70s energy crisis, and an inability of opec to control production the way the railroad commission had from 1930-1973.

In the 80s and 90s and until recently, the industry stood nothing to gain by drilling offshore as there was plenty of cheaper oil to develop elsewhere. The oil companies are the best representation of multinational business that I can think of. In spite of individuals within the industry, the industry as a whole is not patriotic or beholden to American interests. If "they" really wanted to develop the oil reserves in ANWR and off the American coasts, the PR campaign that would be launched would swallow whole any politician or environmentalist that stood in the way. It has started already and the savvy politician will step aside and pretend that drilling off the coast was their idea all along, as John McCain has started to do this week.

It was much easier to control the oil market when three men in Texas had control of the tap. In a global energy market with so many varied interests vying for control, we are in a brave new world where it is impossible for you and I to know what is controlling the price at the pump.

One thing I'm sure of is that it isn't the democrats or the republicans in the USA. We just don't have that kind of power anymore and aren't smart enough to properly use the influence we do have.

Putting on my flame suit. It is good old fashioned asbestos so don't waste your energy.(pun intended)

The power we have now is the power of our vast consumption. We could control the price of oil by radically cutting back on consumption. Where we once had control of the supply because we had the largest production capacity, we now have the largest consumption capacity. For a short time we can still wield that as a weapon to cause a short term collapse of energy prices. (we won't) In the near future we will give up that ability as well, as china and india surpass our rate of consumption. At that point we will be an observer, able only to mitigate the effect of energy prices through conservation, much as european countries have for the past 25 years. (they raise huge tax revenues from energy to encourage conservation by their people)

In closing, I'd like to make this point. Our beliefs are controlled by those that pay for our information outlets. We tend to believe what we are told if it fits with what we already believe. That is how the conflict between democrats and republicans is maintained. That conflict keeps us occupied with fighting one another while those that control the major wealth reserves and sources in the world operate with impunity. They don't view democrats or republicans as enemies or allies but as access to but one nation of large but ever shrinking influence.

RayfromTX
06-20-2008, 07:27 AM
This is what I mean about not viewing either party as enemy or ally. The democrats will be the new friend of the oil industry because they will be in power. As soon as the republicans lose control they lose their power broker friends.



T. Boone Pickens, the Texas oilman who gave $3 million to the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth and who numerous GOP sources said was being looked to as a funding source this year, is sitting the race out.

“He is not giving anything to 527s involved in the presidential race this cycle, and has communicated that…to Republican strategists and operatives,” said Pickens spokesman Jay Rosser.

Rosser said Pickens “has a much broader public policy initiative in mind that will focus on energy, and is approaching that in a bipartisan manner.” He only “contributed last cycle because they were in play, and were so heavily funded on the other side.”

Paul Fielder
06-20-2008, 07:45 AM
We know that one political party has always been against anything we do that could help with this energy crisis that we find ourselves in.

Why do you think that is? What do they think can be gained? Could it be that some of their members are beginning to hear the cries of the people and would like to change their position on this matter but don't know how?

Concho Bill


....the Money trail Bill!!

I think Phil has it right....sign the petition.

pf

Phil Deese
06-20-2008, 08:03 AM
Rush Limbaugh has been saying,"If it's good for America it's bad for democrats", I think that's where we're at right now. It's an election year, and they fell the best way to get elected is make the economy as bad as it can be so it can be blamed on Bush!! I'm not saying the republicans wouldn't do the same thing if they were in power, but we as concerned citizens have an opportunity to seize this moment and try to do what's right for the majority of the country......regardless of party affiliation!!
I agree the shooting sport is important to all of us, but unless we stand-up and are counted on this issue the suffering will continue and progressively get worse!!

Drill Here, and Drill Now

chino69
06-20-2008, 09:00 AM
France produces 75 percent of it's electricity with Nuclear.
God, are we stupid.........jackie


Jackie,
Just to add to your thread concerning France's nuclear power program which supplies approx. 75% of their energy needs. This program was something France implemented correctly and should be the model for the rest of the world. For example, France has implemented standardization in their design and operation that is used for every one of their nuclear plants. This means that if there is a modification required to a piece of equipment it can be implemented throughout their entire fleet. Every plant in the U.S. is a different design, different contractors, different reactors. Implementation of change/modification, in the U.S., is a bureaucratic and engineering challenge and adds to the expense.

The other plus to the French system is they reprocess their fuel via a breeder reactor program; drastically minimizing their waste and refueling costs. We can thank Jimmy Carter for cancelling the breeder reactor program in the U.S..

Jackie, you and I both know that this country has the brains, ingenuity, and talent to solve our problems. We just need a true leader with courage and vision to set an agenda and goals. If we had acted after the first Arab Oil Embargo, as the French did, we would be independent of foreign oil and have a viable energy policy second to none.
Chino69

Paul Fielder
06-20-2008, 09:23 AM
.....that I see a thread that states the French can do something better than the U.S.

My day is ruined:-)

pf

Mr. D
06-20-2008, 10:13 AM
.....that I see a thread that states the French can do something better than the U.S.

My day is ruined:-)

pf

They do healthcare better too! :(

tylerw02
06-20-2008, 10:15 AM
They do healthcare better too! :(

On paper maybe...and if your heart is bleeding. Not in practice.

Paul Fielder
06-20-2008, 10:17 AM
....in the surrender dept.

sorry, couldn't stand it....too easy:-)

pf

Mr. D
06-20-2008, 10:35 AM
When many assume drilling in ANWR will help us, you should ask big oil why they want us to take the risk of drilling in ANWR while they send all the oil to China and India instead of dedicating it to U.S. needs! Greed might be the answer. There are plenty of places to drill in the U.S. if the Oil Companies would not take our resources and sell them to the highest bidder. The international oil companies will drill where they can to make the most profit and that isn't the U.S. We're harder to screw! It would be interesting for the U.S. government to offer drilling rights only to any companies that would agree to sell the oil to the U.S. at a given markup! Sound like socialism, but so does our military! Maybe American only oil companies would build refineries here and take care of their citizens like those countries so many hate do! Oil is helping the citizens of many countries our NeoCons don't like. What's Big Oil done for you lately since they bent you over!

Neither Capitalism nor Socialism were handed down by God, each, or a mix of the two are as good as we make them and by how fairly they treat us. Right now Capitalism is abusing us because of our "no regulation, smash and grab policies"! Our leadership is helping their corporate contacts loot the treasury and empty our pockets while they make us afraid of any kind of change. Before you shoot at me get some independent information on how we really stack up to other countries in standard of living, healthcare, savings rates, infant mortality, crime, etc, etc. We are going down hill because we are afraid to change and look honestly and open mindedly at new ideas! When we all think we are #1, we need to say in what way! :confused: :confused: Maybe we are #1 in the % of citizens in prison, highest national debt, obesity, most nuclear weapons, % of GNP spent on military offense, most nuclear attacks on other countries, lowering educational levels, negative trade balancea, weakening of our currency, decline of the middle class, influence of religion in government, etc, etc. You know, some things I don't want to be number one at! :eek:

This is a great country, but it won't be if we keep thinking we are automatically #1. It must be insulting to other industrialized countries that we think that way!

Bill Wynne
06-20-2008, 10:41 AM
I like my health care just fine. It's called health insurance. You just pay for it yourself.

Concho Bill

Mr. D
06-20-2008, 10:49 AM
I like my health care just fine. It's called health insurance. You just pay for it yourself.

Concho Bill

I am happy you can afford it! Don't assume it will be gone just because you don't vote for McCain! I have Medicare plus AARP and I like it better than any plan I've seen, and I used to negotiate health care programs for 1500+ teachers. I studied them all and flew around the country looking at them. It's possible for everyone in this country to have Medicare for less money than what is spent now if we could get the myths out of the way created by the healthcare industry!

Paul Fielder
06-20-2008, 11:00 AM
When many assume drilling in ANWR will help us, you should ask big oil why they want us to take the risk of drilling in ANWR while they send all the oil to China and India instead of dedicating it to U.S. needs! Greed might be the answer. There are plenty of places to drill in the U.S. if the Oil Companies would not take our resources and sell them to the highest bidder. The international oil companies will drill where they can to make the most profit and that isn't the U.S. We're harder to screw! It would be interesting for the U.S. government to offer drilling rights only to any companies that would agree to sell the oil to the U.S. at a given markup! Sound like socialism, but so does our military! Maybe American only oil companies would build refineries here and take care of their citizens like those countries so many hate do! Oil is helping the citizens of many countries our NeoCons don't like. What's Big Oil done for you lately since they bent you over!

Neither Capitalism nor Socialism were handed down by God, each, or a mix of the two are as good as we make them and by how fairly they treat us. Right now Capitalism is abusing us because of our "no regulation, smash and grab policies"! Our leadership is helping their corporate contacts loot the treasury and empty our pockets while they make us afraid of any kind of change. Before you shoot at me get some independent information on how we really stack up to other countries in standard of living, healthcare, savings rates, infant mortality, crime, etc, etc. We are going down hill because we are afraid to change and look honestly and open mindedly at new ideas! When we all think we are #1, we need to say in what way! :confused: :confused: Maybe we are #1 in the % of citizens in prison, highest national debt, obesity, most nuclear weapons, % of GNP spent on military offense, most nuclear attacks on other countries, lowering educational levels, negative trade balancea, weakening of our currency, decline of the middle class, influence of religion in government, etc, etc. You know, some things I don't want to be number one at! :eek:

This is a great country, but it won't be if we keep thinking we are automatically #1. It must be insulting to other industrialized countries that we think that way!


...you alway post. Everyone knows how your liberal mind feels D & this is no surprise or anything new.

www.AmericanSolutions.com/DrillNow

pf

Paul Fielder
06-20-2008, 11:04 AM
I like my health care just fine. It's called health insurance. You just pay for it yourself.

Concho Bill

...for a family of 4 Bill. Gotta have it and keep finding a way to pay it.....the govt. taking it over just scares me.

I certainly don't expect it from them.....I feel it is my responsibility.

pf

rudedog
06-20-2008, 11:22 AM
I work in refineries every day,and I have wondered why gas has not gone up before this.They are able to make enough gas for us no problem,they just boost their feed rates if they need more production.New refineries would be nice. I've had a thought in he back of my head for a couple of years now.Are the people in our government or industry forward thinking enough to run most of the world out of oil before we use our oil.
Rudy Manuel

tylerw02
06-20-2008, 11:36 AM
Before you shoot at me get some independent information on how we really stack up to other countries in standard of living, healthcare, savings rates, infant mortality, crime, etc, etc. We are going down hill because we are afraid to change and look honestly and open mindedly at new ideas!

Says the man that throws all his support behind the MOST LIBERAL person to ever run for president (okay maybe second or third most....FDR and Wilson were pretty f'in socialist) rather than the most independent, isle crossing member of Congress. You, Mr D, have no business suggesting independent information to anybody.

Chuck Bogardus
06-20-2008, 11:42 AM
We gotta think up new terms, guys.

I'm a liberal.

Washington and Jefferson were liberals.

And when you trot out "communist" or "socialist," you sound like a McCarthy reject from the fifties.

IMHO, what it boils down to is fiscal responsibility. You have the party of increasing welfare handouts on one side, and you have the party of "how the heck we gonna pay for that?" on the other...

tylerw02
06-20-2008, 11:46 AM
We gotta think up new terms, guys.

I'm a liberal.

Washington and Jefferson were liberals.

And when you trot out "communist" or "socialist," you sound like a McCarthy reject from the fifties.

IMHO, what it boils down to is fiscal responsibility. You have the party of increasing welfare handouts on one side, and you have the party of "how the heck we gonna pay for that?" on the other...

If you've ever read any political history and applied it, you'll see that liberal today doesn't mean the same thing as it did when Washing and Jefferson were "liberals". By today's standards, they are LIBERTARIAN.

chino69
06-20-2008, 12:03 PM
I've had a thought in he back of my head for a couple of years now.Are the people in our government or industry forward thinking enough to run most of the world out of oil before we use our oil.
Rudy Manuel

I've had the same thoughts too. Dry up the rest of the world's supply first and then start tapping our reserves. Our land is easily defensible against outside attack, we have plenty of natural resources and grasslands for crops and livestock to feed our people. What do the Saudis have if they run out? It's hard to survive on sand and in the desert. Maybe that's part of the strategy.
Chino69

Chuck Bogardus
06-20-2008, 12:43 PM
Actually, I think that part of what we are looking at is a strategy which is aimed at crippling US capitalism... Not just on energy, but on a lot of things...

If you look at a concept, and someone says "Hey, that's bad for business," whammo, you've got 47 different left organizations protesting in favor of it. China and other nations don't allow that crap - and I think that they encourage it here.

For that matter, do we even know that some of the folks posting, and claiming to be just concerned citizens, are actually in the United States?

Big Al
06-20-2008, 01:47 PM
How anyone can go away from a visit to any of today's topics, and not see the hands of social engineering involved, in ever aspect of America today is beyond me?

This is what happened when we let the lawyers take over government.

Why didn't we see, that lawyers would be the ruination of America?

Social engineering has been the hall mark of the so called self appointed ruling class (lawyers) for over a century.

What would happen if Americans refused to ever vote for another lawyer candidate?

What if the first question asked by any American was are you an attorney? If the answer was yes, then the walk away would begin.

Chuck Bogardus
06-20-2008, 03:37 PM
Problem is that we have the lawyers basically making the laws. Then interpreting them...

No checks and balances in that system.

tylerw02
06-20-2008, 05:44 PM
I am happy you can afford it! Don't assume it will be gone just because you don't vote for McCain! I have Medicare plus AARP and I like it better than any plan I've seen, and I used to negotiate health care programs for 1500+ teachers. I studied them all and flew around the country looking at them. It's possible for everyone in this country to have Medicare for less money than what is spent now if we could get the myths out of the way created by the healthcare industry!

Quality or quantity? How is it going to be affordable without one group of people getting the shaft? I don't want to buy health insurance through the government or anybody. Who are you to say I must? Better yet, who are you to say I must buy somebody else health care insurance?

Supply and demand dictate how much, the quality, and the price of helath care to be offered. If everybody gets "free" health care, demand will increase. If so, quality must decrease or price must increase to provide enough. So which do we want?

If government sets price and does all the paying, we have increased demand....so either we'll have reduced quality, or a reduced supply.

Its simple simple economics. I know that doesn't usually get taught in Commie-for...I mean California. Its obvious by the way the state operates, but what can a guy do?

Mr. D
06-20-2008, 07:12 PM
Tyler,

If I believed what you have just expressed I'd be against universal health care too! I just don't agree with your analysis for one, and another issue is a moral one. As to whom has the right to tell you that you have to contribute to the common good, that ship sailed along time ago. In this country it is a moral judgment that most believe in even if it is sometimes abused by the lazy and immoral among us.

Look into the actual experience of other countries. Much of what we hear is propaganda and myth. The actual facts do not make universal health care in many countries look so bad. France, Switzerland, Japan and many other countries are having good success. It does require a different mentality for doctors and insurance providers. Surprisingly many doctors are ready to make less and get back to serving people instead of spending much of their time fighting the system. There are countries that give a free medical education for those willing to stay in the country. Supply and demand then affects the costs. Fear and myth is our biggest enemy.

I just made an appointment on 6/16 with my family doctor. His first open date was in the middle of August. A bum in the park can go to an emergency room immediately and we have to pay for it! This system ain't perfect either. :confused:

tylerw02
06-24-2008, 11:06 AM
Tyler,

If I believed what you have just expressed I'd be against universal health care too! I just don't agree with your analysis for one, and another issue is a moral one. As to whom has the right to tell you that you have to contribute to the common good, that ship sailed along time ago. In this country it is a moral judgment that most believe in even if it is sometimes abused by the lazy and immoral among us.

Look into the actual experience of other countries. Much of what we hear is propaganda and myth. The actual facts do not make universal health care in many countries look so bad. France, Switzerland, Japan and many other countries are having good success. It does require a different mentality for doctors and insurance providers. Surprisingly many doctors are ready to make less and get back to serving people instead of spending much of their time fighting the system. There are countries that give a free medical education for those willing to stay in the country. Supply and demand then affects the costs. Fear and myth is our biggest enemy.

I just made an appointment on 6/16 with my family doctor. His first open date was in the middle of August. A bum in the park can go to an emergency room immediately and we have to pay for it! This system ain't perfect either. :confused:

Mr D., look at the nice long lag times in countries with socialist health care. Look at the poor quality. I've personally talked to people from these countries and they absolutely hate their systems. Further, explain to me how this is going to work efficiently...I've given you simple economic analysis and you dismiss it. Why? Because you don't understand economics I suppose. I don't care about "belief', I'm working on simple and sound economic principles here. No matter how you try to cut it, supply/demand, price/quality are all related. Where does this huge faith in government come from for you?

Explain to me, why I should be forced to purchase something I do not want? How does that fit in with our Constitution? Further, why is it RIGHT?

The "bum on the street" has government health care. Tell me what is going to happen when everybody gets it all free? You seem upset the bum forces everybody to pay for it, do you think it will be anybody when everybody has that ability?

Trust me, you'll get nothing "free". There is no free lunch. You, as old as you are, should understand that.

chino69
06-24-2008, 12:23 PM
I am happy you can afford it! Don't assume it will be gone just because you don't vote for McCain! I have Medicare plus AARP and I like it better than any plan I've seen, and I used to negotiate health care programs for 1500+ teachers. I studied them all and flew around the country looking at them. It's possible for everyone in this country to have Medicare for less money than what is spent now if we could get the myths out of the way created by the healthcare industry!

Mr. D.,
I'm several years away from retirement but I'm interested in what you just posted about how happy you are with your plan. Could you go into more detail?
Chino69

vicvanb
06-26-2008, 04:23 PM
IMHO, what it boils down to is fiscal responsibility. You have the party of increasing welfare handouts on one side, and you have the party of "how the heck we gonna pay for that?" on the other...

The recent Republican Congress outspent the Democrats 10 to one. They converted a budget surplus to record deficits in about one year. Drove the national debt to historic highs. Got us into a $3 trillion war--with NO way to pay for it.

How can anyone claim Republicans are fiscally responsible??? It's a joke!

RStiefel
06-26-2008, 04:29 PM
you're right about your statement, but you can be certain you'll be told it's the democrats that caused this. We put them in office. Remember that next time you vote.

tome
06-26-2008, 06:44 PM
i dod'n't want to high jack this ..but once you're retired & if your house is paid..health care will be your single biggest expense....NEXT..if anybody thinks the current leadership ( both parties ) is going to lead us out of this mess..you're mistaken.. like every bubble..at some point it can't sustain itself..the price will come down..the stock market gets low enough..it becomes a better investment than oil futures.. the only problem..everybody gets hurt in the mean time.

RStiefel
06-26-2008, 07:20 PM
tome!!!