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jaybic
06-16-2008, 02:25 PM
Hello,

I am having my Rem 700VS in 22-250 rebarreled into a .308. I have a new Kreiger 1:10 tube on the way and am having the action "trued" up and lugs and boltface lapped. It is intended to be my long range coyote swatter.

I am wondering how critical it is to replace the recoil lug with a larger one. I have had one smith tell me not to worry about it, and another one told me I really should change that out do to the caliber upsize and increased torque.
He said after all that money invested, why not just not skip this piece.

I thought a recoil lug was just a big washer until he explained what it does.
I am afraid that putting in a new lug we be cause to have to re-bed and lead me into even more money.

What do you do in my case? BTW, the stock is HS precision with alum block bedding if it makes a difference.

Thanks for any advise fellas.

Jaybic

beemanbeme
06-16-2008, 04:37 PM
Uuuuhhh, I ain't the brightest bulb in the pack but the recoil lug on a 700 is a washer with a hunk of metal hanging down on one side. A smith with an IQ equal to his hat size could change it out. Hell, I could do it. If needed, dimeral some bedding out of the slot in the stock and dob in some new bedding to fit the new recoil lug and you're done.
While you're having that other work done, you might as well do that. As it is, since it's on your mind, it'd worry you if you didn't do it. :D

Old Timer
06-16-2008, 04:50 PM
.308 OMG

Man I hope you are not wanting to sell those hides to a fur dealer :)

Ramsh00ter
06-16-2008, 04:54 PM
I promise you the factory lug on your rifle is not anywhere near flat! I gournd one a few years ago, and it had to take almost .005" to get the tapper out. Imagine what kind of stress that puts on the barrel when you wrench it down. Ended up throwing it away and buying a good one.

The good replacements like from Holand are ground to be flat and parallel.

It makes no since to go thru the work of truing the action and then use a stamped out piece of metal between the action and barrel shoulder.

For my money, if you are not willing to change the lug, don't waste yuur time trueing the action.

Regarding the smith that says don't change it, find another smith, he obviously does not understand what it takes to make these things shot to our expectations.

Regarding Bedding, if you dremial out the recoil lug to do a patch job, that is exactly what you will get, a patch job. Will it work, prob. Will it work to the full potential of the rifle, I wouldn't take the chance. Rebedding the rifle is not that big of a deal.

Remember, an accurite rifle is a system. It is not a bunch of high dollar parts put together to shoot. Leave out a step or two, and you suffer.

JMHO

Randy

Ramsh00ter
06-16-2008, 04:57 PM
A 308 makes a great Yot rig, knocks their pecker in the dirt in a heart beat , LOL

karls42
06-16-2008, 06:42 PM
A Gunsmith will tell you to use a custom lug.
A Blacksmith will tell you the factory lug is just fine.

wnroscoe
06-16-2008, 06:59 PM
I am wondering how critical it is to replace the recoil lug with a larger one. I have had one smith tell me not to worry about it, and another one told me I really should change that out do to the caliber upsize and increased torque.

After market lugs are about $28.00, ground flat and are parallel on both sides. Money well spent. A smith worth his salt wouldn’t re-use the factory lug for a long range live varmint rifle, ditch the smith that said to use it. I've been using the Tubb Lug with very good results but, any of the quality after market lugs will work great. Good luck.

tlo
06-16-2008, 07:40 PM
I just took a run upstairs to take a look at my ..223 40X that I had Hart Barrels rebarrel a couple of years ago. It has the factory recoil lug and it groups 50 Noslers over VV N-133 into nice little groups.

Tom

wnroscoe
06-16-2008, 08:38 PM
I just took a run upstairs to take a look at my ..223 40X that I had Hart Barrels rebarrel a couple of years ago. It has the factory recoil lug and it groups 50 Noslers over VV N-133 into nice little groups.

Tom

Did they surface grind it??

beemanbeme
06-17-2008, 08:55 AM
Whether you bed a rifle all at once or in stages, if it's done right, you end up with the same thing.
If it's a DIY, it's best to do it in stages.

jaybic
06-17-2008, 10:24 AM
I am going to go ahead and change the lug out after reading this.

As far as the .308 for a coyote gun goes, I already have a 22-250 and a pair of .223s and a .243 that are my calling rifles. Usually, calling is a 75-200yard shot deal.

Here is where the .308 comes in. I hunt out in North Dakota quite a bit and its not unusual to see a coyote laying on a hay bale 600 yards away or catch him running a fence line way out there while I am wondering down a section line road, windy days or simply a mouthy one that hangs up way out and thinks he is safe.( Considering how well I shoot, he probably is:D).

I hope to use a 110 grain V-max and some Varget ideally, but what ever load I find that shoots well(168/175 smks?), I would rather hit him too hard and lose the hide, than hit him too soft with CF .22 and lose the entire coyote to suffer and die off in a hole.

Otherwise, I do skin and sell the hides.

Thanks for the help guys. I appreciate it.

Jaybic

Ramsh00ter
06-17-2008, 12:33 PM
I just took a run upstairs to take a look at my ..223 40X that I had Hart Barrels rebarrel a couple of years ago. It has the factory recoil lug and it groups 50 Noslers over VV N-133 into nice little groups.

Tom

We aren't saying the factory lug will not work, of course it can. And you may luck out and get a flat one.

But in factory rifles today, the odds are against you.

When building a rifle, a less than $30.00 part seems like a pretty cheap insurance policy.

Randy

tylerw02
06-17-2008, 01:18 PM
For what its worth, even the fancy after-market lugs may be out of square and need a good surface grind job. I bought a Badger lug for my last custom barrel and the smith said he HAD to surface grind it.

Ramsh00ter
06-17-2008, 04:14 PM
For what its worth, even the fancy after-market lugs may be out of square and need a good surface grind job. I bought a Badger lug for my last custom barrel and the smith said he HAD to surface grind it.

That is why I use the Holand, they just make good products.

But I have also learn the hard way, take nothing for granted!

If you get a bad one, just kissing it on the surface grinder is not a big deal, trying to make a factory stamping flat and square is another story.

One other thing to mention here, most of the aftermarket lugs are bigger than the standard. I don't think that is of any advantage, it is just the way they make them. If you a lug any bigger than the factory, you have other problems you need to deal with.

JMHO

Randy

tylerw02
06-17-2008, 04:15 PM
Being too big also posed me a problem with the H-S stock. I had a heckuva time relieving stock material so that it would fit. It wasn't a fun endeavor.

jaybic
06-17-2008, 04:29 PM
Thats kinda what I am worried about. The lug is cheap but fitting it will generate other stock relief/bedding issues that will end up costing another several hundred dollars. The same smith said being that it was an HS Precision stock with the alum bedding block, that I shuld not have to bed it but we could always do that later in the process. If he has to carve up the stock to get the new lug in, isnt rebedding nearly automatic?

Thanks,

Jaybic

tylerw02
06-17-2008, 04:55 PM
Bedding isn't a big deal. You can get a lug that fits the H-S stock, nearly the same size as the factory lug. But anytime you install a barrel, it really needs rebedded.

Dennis Sorensen
06-17-2008, 05:46 PM
I like and use Holland lugs because they are the same size as the receiver and they look good...:)

That being said, in my opinion it is a toss up if it will shoot any better than with the factory lug...

Has anyone actually tested the difference in accuracy between a factory lug that may be out 1/2 thou and a lug that is dead true?... with all other things equal... not an anecdotal case, but an actual test...? Show the results please ...

wnroscoe
06-17-2008, 05:50 PM
The same smith said being that it was an HS Precision stock with the alum bedding block, that I shuld not have to bed it but we could always do that later in the process.

Bed it, it's just a matter of time before it moves.


If he has to carve up the stock to get the new lug in, isnt rebedding nearly automatic?

Yes but, bedding is a simple job that all shooters should learn to do. Devcon 10110 with a good release agent is about as simple as it gets.

Rflshootr
06-18-2008, 04:59 PM
Why don't you just have your original factory lug surface ground and reuse it?
Probably won't take more than a couple of thousanths per side to get it right and it will still be plenty thick to handle a wimpy little 308.

Ramsh00ter
06-18-2008, 05:51 PM
I like and use Holland lugs because they are the same size as the receiver and they look good...:)

That being said, in my opinion it is a toss up if it will shoot any better than with the factory lug...

Has anyone actually tested the difference in accuracy between a factory lug that may be out 1/2 thou and a lug that is dead true?... with all other things equal... not an anecdotal case, but an actual test...? Show the results please ...

I read your posts all the time and you are among the guys that I pay attention to. You have a wealth of knowledge that I appreciate you sharing.

I am not trying to be argumenative, just offer an opinion.....

Can I prove a aftermarket lug is better, maybe, but prob not. To prove it, you would have to take more than one rifle, barrel them with the factory lug, then test. Then pull the barrels, set the shoulders back and test again.

Would that be a valid test, prob not. By putting the barrel back up in the lathe and cutting again, you are changing more than just the shoulder depth for the thicker lug, you are slightly changing the harmonics of the barrel. So any results could be questionable. It would require you to rebed the rifle, another variable that is difficult to control.

It is like so many things we do to make these things repeat, we do them because we gain confidence in the package. We eliminate a variable. But no body can prove they improve accuracy. So the debate goes on......

If we go through the trouble to square up an action, make everything concentric. Turn the tenion/shoulder of the barre square and concentric. Chamber the barrel to be precisely in line. Then put a stamped out washer between them, didn't we just throw away alot of that precission work? I think so.

With a lug that is absolutely flat and square increases our chances of removing a barrel and putting it back on with the same tension and stress. I don't believe you can do that with a factory lug. JMHO

So in response to you challenge, I can't prove it, nor have I, nor do I intend to try. But I will continue to use either an aftermarket lug or one that has been surface ground to be flat and square.

Do I thinky your wrong, nope! But I think you are leaving something on the table by short cutting a cheap step.

Randy

Dennis Sorensen
06-18-2008, 10:37 PM
Randy... I kind of agree with you... adding a nice lug is kind of eliminating a possible problem and it is a piece of mind thing...

but this fellow is making a " .308 long range coyote swatter" ... not a competitive rifle at all... with just a good barrel and no action work it will probably shoot in the .3's... not much better with all the work... but completely accurate for long range coyotes... I think a 6mm would have been better though...

I think a true test would involve fitting lugs of equal thickness, one lug with a 1/2 thou taper... test with the true lug first, get your best load working and then install the "off" lug... headspace would not change... barrel free floated of course... shoot away...

... it's a good forum... :)

Ramsh00ter
06-18-2008, 11:47 PM
You are right, it is a good discussion, I like these, exchange of ideas is always good.

He did mention in his opening post he was having the action worked. Now how much he is doing is another thing that would make a difference.

I am one of those that is spoiled by the BR rigs and Long Range stuff, I am always looking to do every thing I can to make them shoot better. You get spoiled.

Your idea for a test is a good one. I would think it would have to be done to more than one rifle to validate the findings.

Regarding a 308 for a Yote gun, it works for me, as I am a 308 nut. Actually I have one that I love to shoot Ground Squirrels with :D:D An't the flatest shoot thing in the world, but man when you dial in the range, it just works!!!

Anyway, what ever he does with this rifle, I am sure it will work, I just have a tendancy to go over kill, then I never have an excuse. Never the thought in the back of my mind, "maybe I should of replaced that lug"

Catch you guys later, going hog hunting, got to get my stuff ready.

Randy

jaybic
06-19-2008, 08:43 AM
Hello all,

Thanks for all the insight as I have learned a great deal from this discussion. As I mentioned earlier, I am going to have the lug installed and damn whatever extra costs go with it. The action is being "trued" and the bolt face and lugs are being lapped but I have a question. To be honest, I have heard the word "trued" many times on here and I am paying to have it done and really dont know what it entails exactly.

I apologize for asking perhaps a dumb question but other than the lug/bolt face work, what else does truing consist of?

As far as the caliber choice, I did think of a 6mm or similar but I already have 3 other .22 cal coyote rifles and a .243 which is currently the largest caliber I own. I wanted to go with an inherently accurate and proven round with a wide range of bullet options as I also may have the opportunity to go elk hunting with it next fall.

I know that my rifle will not be competitive in the benchrest arena but I do hope when all is said and done, it will turn out to be a good bit more accurate than the standard box stock long range varmint rifle.

Anyway, thanks for your time and input. It is valuable to me.

Jaybic

Ramsh00ter
06-19-2008, 09:17 AM
Dennis will prob be able to give you a more detailed explaination of the truing as he has alot more experience than I do.

In my opinion, there is no one way to do it and many levels of truing.

The goal is to get everything square and in line, elimianting as much stress and tension on combination.

That is what all these custom actions are about, from the box they are near perfect on squareness and alignment. You can take your Remington, spend a fortune on it and come close to a custom action. Cheaper to buy the custom.

For what you are building, you will be fine. The 308 is an inheriently accurate round, I love them. I have a XP-100 pistol chambered in 308 that puts most rifles to shame. I have sent more than one guy home from the range with his tail between his legs trying to out shoot it with their varmint rig (photo attached)

Good luck on your project, let us know how it goes.

Randy

Dennis Sorensen
06-19-2008, 12:40 PM
Basic truing on a 700 action for me is to machine the bolt lug recesses and the action face and the threads as true to the bolt raceway as possible. The bolt lugs are also machined square to the bolt body. Lapping about five strokes is only done to confirm the machining was good. I don't like to lap to make the fit good... This work can be done by set up in a lathe or by specialized tooling.

There is a lot more work than can be done trying to make a Benchrest action out of the 700. It usually isn't worth the cost...

Ramsh00ter
06-19-2008, 01:00 PM
There is a lot more work than can be done trying to make a Benchrest action out of the 700. It usually isn't worth the cost...

That is an understatement Dennis, lol, But......

Bob Brackney in Arizona shoots sleeved 700 in the BR game. And he does very well.

That being said, we would all have a heart attack and go to the poor house if we tried his have his actions matched, you could prob buy two Bat's for less money.

Bob built my last High Power Shilo rig, I have never owned a finner shooting offhand gun. He has the magic touch with Remys.

beemanbeme
06-19-2008, 03:25 PM
"damn whatever extra cost go with it" wow, you're about to send some smith's kids to college. :D

I have a question: I have a 700 varmint special with the alum bedding block. 22-250. I have skim bedded the action onto the bedding block and bedded the recoil lug. Since this work has been done, I have had the action rebarrelled. The post was made that if a rifle is rebarrelled it needed to be rebedded. Since the barrel is free floating, how does that affect the bedding that it needs to be redone?
I just dropped the action back into the stock and went back to shooting.

jaybic
06-19-2008, 04:43 PM
Beemanbeme,

I think we are talking about the very same rifle here. Mine is/was a Rem 700VS(Varmint Special or Varmint Synthetic?) in 22-250 with the HS Precision aluminum block bedded stock. It will come home a .308 when the smith is done.

Sounds like you are asking a smarter version of the same question I had.:)

Jaybic

P.s. What is skim-bedding anyway?

Ramsh00ter
06-19-2008, 05:48 PM
The trick is for the smith to get the lug back in the same position.

If in the process of installing the barrel, the lug twists a degree or two, it can potentially press against the side of the bedding. If does, it can cause problems.

Remember, the lug is really nothing more than a big washer with an extension to act as the lug. It can twist when the barrel is tightened. That is one of the reasons alot of people pin the lugs to the action, acts as an anti rotation stop.

I put a witness mark on the bottom of the action and lug prior to removing the barrel, then it can be confirmed it has not twisted.

So to answer your question, if the action is bedded and the barrel is full floated to the face of the lug, it should not need to be rebedded provided the lug is re-installed in the same position.

That is also one of the reasons that I tape off the bottom, sides and face of the recoil lug before bedding. After the bedding is cured and the tape removed, there is a .004-.005" clearance around the lug, no chance of it binding and puting pressure on the action.

I think the lug should serve one purpose in regards to bedding---IT IS A RECOOIL LUG! It should never be depended on to line up the action in the stock. I only look for the back of the lug to touch the bedding.

I have a couple of Remys that are switch barrel rigs, has never been a problem swapping the barrels.

In the early days of learning to bed, I used to make a perfect fit, had to press the lug into the stock before putting the action screws in. I found it worked better with the clearence.

Regarding skim bedding, my version of it is simply the painting of the inside of the stock with a thin layer of bedding compound to compensate for any low or high spots. It doesn't really add anything to the regidity of the stock.I prefer to remove alot of stock material, install pilliars and do a three step bedding job. But skim bedding does work and can help.

Regarding smarter question Jaybic, your questions and reponses have been good, this is the only way you learn. That is what this forum is all about.

I was fortune enough to have been in contact and learned how to bed rifles from Bob Pease (boy there is a name from the past) back in the 70's, somewhere I still hive a his book on rifle bedding. Beleive me, I asked alot of what I thought were dumb questions, I learned something from everyone of them.

Your are going to find alot of people on here that are very opinionated (myself included), just listen to everyone and form your opinion. Everyone has something to offer.

Randy

Ramsh00ter
06-19-2008, 05:54 PM
You are going to love the 308, they just shoot.

My load has always been 41-41.5 grains of IMR 4895 behind a 168 and it shoots!

The only 308 I have ever owned that would not shoot that load was heavy barrel Sako (Douglas barrel), the only thing it would shoot was H380. Why, I have not clue, lol.

On of my switch barrel rigs is a Sleeved Remington 700, has a Hart 308 and 257 Roberts barrel on it. The 308 barrel is on it all the time.

Randy

Rflshootr
06-19-2008, 05:55 PM
The only reason the action would need re-bedding is if the face of the action was altered (trued). Picture the face of the action out of square and the angle that the lug would be on, in whichever direction the out of squareness is. Once a stock is bedded to the out of square condition, and then the action is squared up, now contact is lost between the face of the lug and the bedding in the lug area. Without rebedding, this would also cause the action to be pulled forward on the bedding job under the action by however much was removed from the face of the action, again possibly causing a mismatch in the bedding.
As far as skim bedding goes, a normal bedding job consists of removing from about 1/16th to 1/8 of an inch of material from under the action and in the recoil lug area. Then it is bedded with whatever material the smith chooses to form a hopefully perfect stress free match under the action and behind the lug. A skim bedding job is just that--removing little or no material from these areas and using a minimum amount of compound to make up any mismatch.

Ramsh00ter
06-19-2008, 06:08 PM
It does not take much to throw things out of wack.

Randy

beemanbeme
06-19-2008, 06:16 PM
In my case, I didn't feel that the action was laying quite true in the bedding block. That is to say, I felt the action was kinda binding as I tightened it into the block.
What drove my first interest or concern was I didn't feel I was getting the accuracy that I felt I should so I went hunting. Understand I am not a smith but I do like to tinker with rifles and I own several 700's and am pretty familar with them. I would tighten the front action screw w/o the rear screw in place and when I put my hand on the top of the action and began to loosen the front screw, I could feel the action relax or move in a unnatural manner so to speak.
I had already bedded the recoil lug (factory, oh Lord forgive me) so I took that bedding out and prepped the action and lug for bedding. (I use Johnson's paste wax) and laid down a coat of epoxy on the bedding block and in the recoil slot. I tightened the rear action screw and let gravity take care of the front end. The next day, I said my usual little prayer that I had put enough release agent on the action and, thank you Lord, they popped apart. At the rear, the block was clear of bedding compound and up the left side but on the right side, it got progressively thicker as it went forward and at the front the bedding compound was around 1/8" thick. So when I was tightening down the action, before the bedding, it was twisting. When I got the rifle, I gave the barrel 500 strokes of JB and while I rested my arm, put a little JB on the bolt lugs and worked those a bit so after bedding the action, it went on to be a pretty consistant winner in the factory matches. And was hard, hard on Pdogs. :D

beemanbeme
06-19-2008, 06:30 PM
I am looking at a Remington 700. Where is the face of the action? Are you tallking about the portion behind the recoil lug? How often do you find one that needs truing? I own and have owned a lot of Rems. I guess I've been lucky.

wnroscoe
06-20-2008, 07:50 PM
I am looking at a Remington 700. Where is the face of the action? Are you tallking about the portion behind the recoil lug? How often do you find one that needs truing? I own and have owned a lot of Rems. I guess I've been lucky.

The face of the receiver is that portion of the receiver just behind the recoil lug. I've trued several and all of them needed a truing cut on the receiver face. The receiver lug abutments are just as bad. With a little work the Remington receiver's clean up nicely.