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View Full Version : Republic of California gone mad! Interfering in interstate comerce.



Brian Voelker
06-12-2008, 03:21 PM
I just received a letter from the Department of Justice Bureau of Firearms, Sacramento,CA and as of July 1, 2008 , California Penal Code section 12072(f)(1) prohibits all FFL's from shipping to an FFL in California unless prior to delivery, the FFL intending to deliver, sell or transfer the firearm obtains a verification approval number for the California Department of Justice Bureau of Firearms. This includes transfers that occur at gun shows. The verification approval number, which the Bureau of Firearms provides in a Firearms Shipment Approval letter, confirms that the intended recipient of the firearm shipment is properly licensed and listed in the state's database of persons/entities authorized to receive firearm shipments. If the intended CA FFL is not listed in the state's database, the transaction will result in a Do Not Ship letter, and it is a crime for the intended recipient to receive the firearms (Pen. Code, 12083,subd.(c)(1)).
This does not apply to type 03 (curio and relic collectors) and type 06 (ammunition dealers).
Visit ag.ca.gov/firarms for additional info to sign up.
This is just insane and government gone bad!
BV

Mr. D
06-12-2008, 03:43 PM
I got caught up in that trying to buy my CZ #453 Varmint in 17 HMR. It is a major pain that combined with some local gun dealers that were jerks made the out of state purchase too much trouble. The local gun dealers were the main problem. They wanted to charge $150. plus registrations charges to receive the rifle. Finally, I gave up on all the nice, local dealers and went to a pawn shop with an FFL. They'll sell me anything I want at 10% over wholesale with a very nice attitude without the "I'm a gun expert and you're not" attitude!

Having said that, we have to realize that these restrictive laws that hurt us all come from a need in some states to try to get a handle on crime. If guns that have not been registered for decades are used in crimes it makes it harder for the police to prosecute criminals. I have both registered and unregistered firearms (I know!), but I keep all the records so if they are stolen the police can prosecute the theif because they have the serial numbers. Secondly, my self defense handguns are all registered because if I "double tap" some criminal, I don't the unregistered handgun to be an issue.

By the way, I am aware that many of the gun laws are ineffective and even worse some seem to be designed to deter gun possession, so no need to repeat that argument. They don't ask me when they make new laws!

Paul Fielder
06-12-2008, 03:44 PM
I just received a letter from the Department of Justice Bureau of Firearms, Sacramento,CA and as of July 1, 2008 , California Penal Code section 12072(f)(1) prohibits all FFL's from shipping to an FFL in California unless prior to delivery, the FFL intending to deliver, sell or transfer the firearm obtains a verification approval number for the California Department of Justice Bureau of Firearms. This includes transfers that occur at gun shows. The verification approval number, which the Bureau of Firearms provides in a Firearms Shipment Approval letter, confirms that the intended recipient of the firearm shipment is properly licensed and listed in the state's database of persons/entities authorized to receive firearm shipments. If the intended CA FFL is not listed in the state's database, the transaction will result in a Do Not Ship letter, and it is a crime for the intended recipient to receive the firearms (Pen. Code, 12083,subd.(c)(1)).
This does not apply to type 03 (curio and relic collectors) and type 06 (ammunition dealers).
Visit ag.ca.gov/firarms for additional info to sign up.
This is just insane and government gone bad!
BV


explain this to me again in english. Do I read this correctly:


I, (Paul Fielder) as an FFL Holder in Texas have to get a letter from Califonia Dept. of X, BEFORE I can ship to you (Brian FFL) holder who is in California stating it is OK??

If this is how I'm reading it, I as an FFL Holder in Texas would just not allow any buyers from California to bid / purchase any of my guns to avoid the bs.....or is this the states intention??

thanks,

pf

Rich-Allen
06-12-2008, 03:54 PM
Paul,

I believe you are reading this correctly. it seems they are intending to make it so difficult for FFL's to ship to California they stop doing so.
Remember, it will only start with Calif. It could be your state next.
As a California resident I urge you to rethink not selling to California. We are victims of the legislators they liberals love to reelect each year. This is an abomination and Schwarzenegger will be hung out to fry by the NRA.
I hope the NRA files a lawsuit to stop this.

Yote
06-12-2008, 04:40 PM
By the way, I am aware that many of the gun laws are ineffective and even worse some seem to be designed to deter gun possession, so no need to repeat that argument.

ding ding ding ding. We have a winner. Yes, that is exactly what they are for.

The law mentioned in the first post is exactly for that reason. Bury you in paper work till it's too much hassle and not worth the effort.

I hope the NRA jumps all over it.:mad:

Brian Voelker
06-12-2008, 05:41 PM
Paul,
I am a FFL holder in IOWA and I received this letter. I do some business in all states and the only worse I have seen is selling to New York City and Island residents. I tried calling NRA and was disconnected and am guessing they are aware of it. The Federal government needs to reign in the Republic of California! Some one out there needs to get a clue. It is by the people,for the people.
BV

Ramsh00ter
06-12-2008, 05:49 PM
Every post I read of yours, you bash Bush, you bash the Republicans when they are trying to protect this nation.
But yet, you support the Democratic/Liberals in their feel good do nothing actions when they are passing laws and regs to prevent us from protecting ourselves?

Honestly, I stopped reading them, gave me too much of a headache.

Having said that, we have to realize that these restrictive laws that hurt us all come from a need in some states to try to get a handle on crime. If guns that have not been registered for decades are used in crimes it makes it harder for the police to prosecute criminals. I have both registered and unregistered firearms (I know!), but I keep all the records so if they are stolen the police can prosecute the theif because they have the serial numbers. Secondly, my self defense handguns are all registered because if I "double tap" some criminal, I don't the unregistered handgun to be an issue.


Look at virtually every crazy regulation we have on the books, gun reg or anything else, who is behind it... the frigg'n liberal Democrates.

The Politicians of the state of California have no desire to get a handle on crime, they just want to show everyone they are earning their pay, "look I passed this law. Doesn't do a frigg'n thing, but by god I passed it."

I live in the Peoples Republic of California, and shake my head everyday at these fools.

I spoke a few years ago in front of the Long Beach City Council oposing another feel good law banning FFL's operated out of your home within the city of Long Beach. Mind you, there were no reported crimes as the result of the selling of firarms from a home, but they felt they needed to stop it.

I told them we don't need more laws, we already are not willing to inforce the ones we have. If a gun was sold illigally out of a home, then the book should be thrown at the violater.

Did it do any good, nope, they had already made up their mind.

A friend of mine had a thriving business selling supplies and guns to the Trap and Skeet community, this was his retirment side income. Immediately put him out of business.

I don't know about you, but I have not heard of anyone using an Kriegoff Skeet gun with AA hand loaded shotgun shells in a crime? Have you?

So you just keep on supporting these simple minded liberals, then one day when you are faced with the need to "Double Tap" somebody breaking into your house, you can thank them for only being able to use a water pistol with die it.

Maybe by then the liberals will have develope a die for your water pistol that has a GPS tracking system in it, then after the cops send your die to the lab they can find the guy and slap his hands........ Oh that's right, some liberal will come along and pass a law outlawing the water pistol because the die might get in someone's eye or stain their cloths......tisk tisk.....

That mentality is not too far off from the people you support.......

One question, after you help elect Obama (which won't happen), and the anti gunners come out of the woodwork to overturn the 2nd, are you going to be a good law abiding liberal and turn your guns in?

Randy

Rusty Carr
06-12-2008, 06:44 PM
I am lucky enough to live in Ga. This state is really two states, Atlanta, and rural Ga. I am further blessed to live in the rural part. So far, we have been spared the most restrictive parts of the laws such as outlined in California. For instance, instead of individual guns being registered, law abiding people who can pass a thorough background check can get a concealed carry permit. If I'm not wrong, studies have shown states with similar laws have lower reported cases of gun violence. I know I'm preaching to the choir, but why is it so hard to get pols to see hard evidence? Thanks, Rusty in Ga.

crb
06-12-2008, 07:45 PM
I am lucky enough to live in Ga. This state is really two states, Atlanta, and rural Ga. .

Could you please clarify that Atlanta is everything inside I-285 ? :D As long as we keep electing governors from rural GA we will be ok.

Paul Fielder
06-12-2008, 09:27 PM
Paul,
I am a FFL holder in IOWA and I received this letter. I do some business in all states and the only worse I have seen is selling to New York City and Island residents. I tried calling NRA and was disconnected and am guessing they are aware of it. The Federal government needs to reign in the Republic of California! Some one out there needs to get a clue. It is by the people,for the people.
BV

What are your intentions as an ffl in regards to all this?? I just got the letter right after your thread....I'm so ticked off about it in general I don't know what to say. I have sent some neat guns to California and made new email friends from these transactions but this is stupid and has no common sense to it other than to discourage guns being sent in to the state....what is it going to take for the gun owners of Cal. to say enough?? Only when they can exchange guns between cal. residients between themselves.

I do so little biz it's not that anyone would miss me but I think it is the fine gun owners in California who need to take it back, not the fed govt. or even the NRA. I certainly do not want to punish the buyers of California like Rich but the fact is WHY did I find out about this today and not weeks ago.

It is a sucker punch in the gut as far as I'm concerned. I do not need a pre approved letter to send any gun to NY (maybe just the state) never sent anything the NYNY.

Really mad....

pf

Bullet94
06-13-2008, 05:10 AM
Iím just glad I donít live in Cali CRAZY. Is California really part of the United States?

Brian Voelker
06-13-2008, 01:47 PM
Paul
My first intentions which usually are trouble involved the liberal way by hiring 1000 or so buses in various California cities and offering free rides to Sacramento and free camo t-shirts and all the free soda and water for the bus ride there. No restrooms on buses and no potty stops and let them out on the front steps of the legislature buidings of the capitol.
Let them clean up the mess!
Rich
Sounds like the ATF needs more money to enforce what is already on books. We already have the EZ check federal system on the internet to look up FFL holders. Did they say if a serial number or type of gun was required for the letter? If it is, the law is illegal! It constitutes a registry of firearms.
BV

Paul Fielder
06-13-2008, 01:59 PM
...why have this?? There is no need for it.

https://www.atfonline.gov/fflezcheck

I always go here and check the ffl I receive to make sure it is accurate and current before shipping. This is insane.....there is already a check system in place w/ ATF. This is a Califirnia state issue, not an ATF issue best I can tell.

I need to look over my papers again but it appears as if 'I' have to 'register' with California dept of X if I want to ship to your state??

I'm going to give my gal w/ the local ATF a call and see if I can confirm if your contact is being honest about this not being just a "California thing". Don't get me wrong, I won't be surprised if Mass or NY do the same but would be VERY surprised to see this become a trend w/ the majority of states & going nation wide.

It seems ATF would be leading the charge and not California if there was a serious fraud issue with FFL's!!

Sorry for the rant but it seems unnecessary.......Funny, I have NEVER heard from the Dept. of Firearms in Texas. I only deal with ATF??

pf

Michael Sherman
06-13-2008, 01:59 PM
Ok, so the law abiding folks get approval to ship firearms to and from California and the dishonest folks don't so...this law accomplished what?

crb
06-13-2008, 02:06 PM
How long will it take them to give the approval ? Couple of days ? Couple of weeks? Couple of months ?? Couple of years ???

Paul Fielder
06-13-2008, 02:14 PM
Ok, so the law abiding folks get approval to ship firearms to and from California and the dishonest folks don't so...this law accomplished what?

This only applies to FFL holders.

My guess this is nothing more than a liberal agenda to discourage out of state ffl's from sending more guns "into" California....period. Notice they are not concerned about a gun LEAVING the state.....at least I cannot find anything about needing a letter to receive a gun being shipped from California......only shipping into that state.

Again, ATF would be making a nation wide law if they are seeing broad FFL fraud issues.....but they have already a system for us in place to check the ffl before shipping.

pf

Mr. D
06-13-2008, 02:57 PM
This only applies to FFL holders.

Notice they are not concerned about a gun LEAVING the state.....at least I cannot find anything about needing a letter to receive a gun being shipped from California......only shipping into that state.


pf


The law drove me nuts when I tried to buy my CZ 17 HMR out of state, but my understanding is that I cannot ship from California to another state without going through an FFL. I think I can take to another state and sell it as I am no longer in Calif. jurisdiction. I also believe other states had to agree to enforce California's laws. They've also tightened up buying items from another state and escaping state sales taxes! Not so easy to do anymore. Also part of the reason for the FFL laws I believe!

Paul Fielder
06-13-2008, 07:39 PM
believe one would be hard pressed to get a clear reason for this attempt to add yet another law to the books.

Rich in Ca.


...I would bet all I have this is clearly another law to make things more difficult for law abiding Californian's to buy guns!!

Sorry, but this law does nothing but creat more paperwork for laws already in place. I will also go out on a limb and say you were LIED to on the phone and this is just a left coast issue / law that will not spread.

pf

Paul Fielder
06-13-2008, 08:20 PM
Have a talk with Stan Ware. He too was lied to apparently. We have a project in the works and he found out today that this does nothing to affect him. Again, this pertains only to FFL to FFL.

Keep in mind that most fashions, trends and laws start in Ca. and make their way to the remaining states. Other attempts to curb gun ownership in this state have been defeated, and I believe this will be yet another to end up in the trash.

Rich in Ca.

...to support anti gun non-sense....this is one of them. Not sure what the answers are but ATF seems to be content with the safeguards they have in place and your state legislature are trying to stick it to you guys further. I'll go over my paperwork one more time and discuss it w/ my local ATF and make a decision.

I LOVE Texas......have buddies come in from out of town and they just flip out when I get in the hunting truck and they see I have a shot gun, varmint gun in the mattress lying across the hood of the jeep and the deer rifle stiking out the window......"We can't do that"

"YES WE CAN...and the Federal Game Warden will be joining us shortly" Let's go kill something....I doubt we will EVER see your problems here as the spirit of the Alamo lives on....no offense....but too many on the left coast have let the foxes take over the hen house.

Take it back...

pf

Mr. D
06-14-2008, 02:42 AM
The laws about a private individual have not changed. California residents do not have to possess an FFL to ship a firearm. They do however have to ship to a valid FFL.

Rich in Ca.

Is that accurate Rich? I thought a Calif resident had to use an FFL to ship! Is it also accurate then that an out of state private citizen (non FFL) can ship directly to an FFL in Calif? I thought it had to go through a FFL registration process on both ends. If I sell a firearm in Calif. to another person in Calif. I believe I cannot just ship it myself to an FFL, but I have to fill out paperwork prior to shipping or selling. Am I correct?

You are right about different states may have reasons for different gun laws based on gangs, etc. Gangs maybe less of a problem in New Hampshire, but in some states you may not want a gang member to be able to throw down hundred dollar bills and walk out of a gun show with a box of unregistered 9mm's for his homeboys.

Bullet94
06-14-2008, 04:04 AM
"You are right about different states may have reasons for different gun laws based on gangs, etc. Gangs maybe less of a problem in New Hampshire, but in some states you may not want a gang member to be able to throw down hundred dollar bills and walk out of a gun show with a box of unregistered 9mm's for his homeboys."

Yea, if the gang member canít buy guns at a gun show then the gangs will not have anymore guns, And who decides who the gang members are?

speedpro
06-14-2008, 06:21 AM
Gangsters don't and by law can't legally purchase guns from a FFL holder at a gunshow or on the street "legally"so the laws enaccted to prohibit gangs from buying guns through the process you and I purchase guns don't hold no water.
The local punks steal legally purchased guns and the Gangsters buy them in bulk thru the blackmarket. Liberal enacted laws have always benefitted the "wrongdoer", which makes it necessary for us to continue fighting for our rights to defend ourselves, as they try to strip us of that right too .

Paul Fielder
06-14-2008, 01:02 PM
Taking back your rights in this state is not as easy as one would hope for. This is a huge state where gun owners make up a very tiny portion of that population. Gun owners here would love to have different crooks running our government. We don't. The gun owners here didn't elect the GOVERNATOR, but we are stuck with him.

Rich in Ca.

..not sure I could handle it and would probably have to move.

The Valley is VERY liberal and votes that way but still pro gun. I'm mad at how they vote against their beliefs but comfortable & happy to say they would stand side by side if big brother ever tried to take them away.

pf

Mr. D
06-14-2008, 01:30 PM
Gangsters don't and by law can't legally purchase guns from a FFL holder at a gunshow or on the street "legally"so the laws enaccted to prohibit gangs from buying guns through the process you and I purchase guns don't hold no water.


You missed the point!

Gang members can't buy unregistered fireams "because of the laws" passed that irritate honest shooters like us. I hate the laws too when I want to buy a gun, but it is an attempt to keep felons from buying guns by the carload by just flashing the money. I'm old enough to remember when you could do that at gunshows, shooting ranges and on the street! I'm sorry that's the way life is today! I don't like it either.

Mr. D
06-14-2008, 01:41 PM
That is correct.
One does NOT have to possess an FFL to ship to an FFL. If as a resident of the state of California you are selling a handgun, you must then go through a FFL dealer. Taking back your rights in this state is not as easy as one would hope for. This is a huge state where gun owners make up a very tiny portion of that population. Gun owners here would love to have different crooks running our government. We don't. The gun owners here didn't elect the GOVERNATOR, but we are stuck with him.

Rich in Ca.

Rich,

I'm stuck with the same irritating laws as you are and they are a pain. I'm not sure I want an L.A. gang to be able to buy carloads of guns at gun shows by just flashing the cash the way it used to be. It doesn't do much good if they can drive to Reno or Las Vegas and get the truckload of unregistered 9mm's, etc. for their next driveby shooting! Yes, gang members and felons will always find a way to get guns, but we can make prosecution easier when they break the law and wind up with a registered gun they've stolen or bought illegally. If some sleeze offerers me double the worth of a handgun at a shooting range, my arse is grarss if I sell it to him and he gets caught with it in a robbery or driveby shooting!

I can buy the guns I want, I just have to be irritated with the extra cost and hassle of all these gun laws. There are allot of laws I have to follow because of dishonest people. Try to build and sell a house and you have a ton of laws and paperwork expenses because of dishonest builders that I have screwed buyers in the past. Of course honest builders and shooters hate it being this way!

Bullet94
06-15-2008, 01:50 AM
You missed the point!

Gang members can't buy unregistered fireams "because of the laws" passed that irritate honest shooters like us. I hate the laws too when I want to buy a gun, but it is an attempt to keep felons from buying guns by the carload by just flashing the money. I'm old enough to remember when you could do that at gunshows, shooting ranges and on the street! I'm sorry that's the way life is today! I don't like it either.


Mr. D

Do you really believe that gangs canít buy guns "because of the laws". I thought gangs didnít give a darn about laws. Nice to hear that the gangs are law abiding when it comes to gun laws. I always thought the only people that go by the laws were the honest citizens.

Mr. D
06-15-2008, 02:07 AM
Brian,

I bought my CZ 17 HMR about six months ago and I heard that was the law back then. I guess they were wrong about the date of enforcement or I misunderstood. A local FFL told me the reason was it is that it was a check to verify that the receiving FFL really exists and it isn't a straw man sale based on a fake FFL. The FFL told me he didn't want to bother with getting the #'s. That's why local gun stores want a big piece of change to accept out of state sales transfers. I wound up ordering the rifle locally because it was actually less expensive. I would think the gunshops of Calfornia, etc. would love the law as it cuts down on out of state competition, but would they admit it????

Joe S
06-15-2008, 12:15 PM
You missed the point!

Gang members can't buy unregistered fireams "because of the laws" passed that irritate honest shooters like us. I hate the laws too when I want to buy a gun, but it is an attempt to keep felons from buying guns by the carload by just flashing the money. I'm old enough to remember when you could do that at gunshows, shooting ranges and on the street! I'm sorry that's the way life is today! I don't like it either.

You`re right, the laws irritate the honest shooter. They do nothing though to prevent a gang from weapons. Here is an example of a few gang bangers out shopping.
http://www.mlive.com/flintjournal/index.ssf/2008/06/atf_police_investigate_thefts.html

Mr. D
06-16-2008, 03:03 AM
Of course gangs and felons can still get guns illegally, but it makes it more difficult for them and easier to prosecute them and their suppliers than having it legal for them to buy a box of legal guns at gun shows by just slapping down cash and walking away. Ask any conservative, anti crime prosecutor.