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View Full Version : It's real hard choosing a 2nd PD rifle when you already have all the best in a 20cal!



VaniB
03-15-2008, 09:02 PM
Well, I finally printed up about 10 sheets of ballistic data available from the Hornady Ballistics calculator websight link to compare 300 and 400 yard zero performance of the various 55, 58gr, 65gr, 70gr, 75, and 87gr 6mm bullets compared to the performance of my .20 caliber rifle's Sierra 39gr bullet. (20Tactical) Much of what I found also holds true at the 200 and 300 yard ranges too.

http://www.hornady.com/ballistics/ballistics_calculator.php

Compared to all those traditional varmint rifle calibers, we've all heard and know that the 6mm is a step up and advantage in bucking the wind, right? We's assume that the heavier bullet and mass has to be that much more lethal on the PD too, right? Well, think again. Because what I found was that except for the 87 grain bullet, the stats for all these other 6mm cal bullets were dismal when compared to that tiny little 20 cal. And the stats show the 87 grain bullet still drops almost 5" further then the 20 cal at 500 yards when zeroed in at 400 yards. (in case you wonderd, the 39 grain 20 cal trajectory is considerably better at most other yard ranges too....not just at 400 and 500 yards.)The 6mm 87 grain bullet's redeeming quality is that at 500 yards it hits at 727 pounds of energy compared to the 20 cal pill's 413 lbs...even though the 6mm bullet is going 245FPS slower at that distance, and sinking 5" further. Unless you use an 87 grain 6mm bullet, the other lighter 6mm bullets will lose considerable energy, trajectory, and blow all over the friggin place at just 8 mph! For example, at 500 yards the small and light 39 grain Sierra .20 cal bullet is driftng 18.0", while the 58 Grain 6mm is blowing 23.3" to the side, while it only offers 40 pounds more of energy against the 20! Why even bother with a 6 x 47L chambering for a varmint rig if you plan on using these bullets? (and for that matter any of the the other smaller or weaker case 6mm chamberings)

I have previously decided that my second custom smithed varmint PD custom rifle (and accurate informal target rifle) should be the 6 x 47Lapua. I was serious enough that I have already bought the action and stock, and just Friday finished ordering the $80 worth of Lapua cases.

But now, after CAREFULLY comparing the performance of my 20 caliber 39 grain Sierra (BC of .287) doing 3820 FPS at the muzzle, NOTHNG ELSE LOOKS GOOD!!!! The 6x47L is kind of uninspiring in comparison. The 87 grain bullet (the only bullet that I explained is worth shooting) leaves the barrel at 2,975 FPS. So we are already in a deficit of 845fps compared to my 20Tac. But, I'm hoping that the 300 to 400 extra ft.lbs of hitting power of that heavier and better ballistic coefficient 87 grain bullet is what makes the difference and makes it worth doing.
Very simply, if you want to improve on a 20 caliber PD rifle, without some serious compromising.....simply put, there's nothing else out there to choose.

If you want a flat shooting, wind bucking rifle, that maintains a sight picture of the impacting bullet, and which barrel will also last a couple of thousand rounds, lotsa luck finding a substitute for the 20. That I can tell, it's non existant.

That I can tell, I already own the best all-around PD rifle that can be built (20tac-204Ruger),


I'm now a bit less enthused with this new $2,500 6x47L rifle I'm supposed to build. I sure wouldn't mind anybody out there telling me I'm misunderstanding something.....but I'm having trouble contorting the Ballistic statstics to how I'd like them to read.

milanuk
03-15-2008, 10:44 PM
If all you can get out of that 6x47L is 2975... send it back. A stock 6mm BR should be able to do that, with less powder.

Louis Boyd
03-15-2008, 10:57 PM
Very simply, if you want to improve on a 20 caliber PD rifle, without some serious compromising.....simply put, there's nothing else out there to choose.

If you want a flat shooting, wind buckling rifle, that maintains a sight picture of the impacting bullet, and which barrel will also last a couple of thousand rounds, lotsa luck finding a substitute. That I can tell, it's non existant.

If you want to shoot PDs at a measly 500 yards I suppose the 204 is fine. If you want to try them at 2000 yards then perhaps you need a 7mm STW. Wind bucking? Definiitely. Ok, it won't >maintain< the sight picture, but before the bullet arrives you can get back on target. Barrel life? Don't worry, your shoulder will fail before the barrel. ;-)

VaniB
03-16-2008, 12:29 AM
I had to use my Hornady Reloading book (6th edtion) to try and determine max or near max loads. Hornady does not indicate the 6BR with an 87 gr bullet, nor do they list the 6 x 47L or the 6XC. As well, they list the 243 winchester at 3100FPS max with the 87 grain. I'll gladly recalculate the ballistics if I can determine accurate max loads for the different 6mm bullets I listed.

It will still likely stand that the bullets to show a decided ballistics advantage due to my editing the velocity number higher will be the heavier 6mm bullets with a good Ballistic Coefficient.

gt40
03-16-2008, 11:56 AM
VaniB,

Since you are building a new PD rifle and if your new action is strong enough maybe you could consider this one. It shoots bullets with similar weights that your TAC 20 does, but allot faster. You could also chamber your new rifle in .220 Swift and only loose about 100 feet per second according to Mr. Middlestead.

Read the whole thing & tests.

http://www.accuratereloading.com/22-243.html

"Aim small miss small", :D

gt40

vmthtr in green
03-16-2008, 01:17 PM
On paper and on "prarie dog" are two different things. My 6 BR with the 58 Vmax is way more destructive on dogs than my 223 AI with a 50g bullet. I also shoot a 17 Mach IV at 4110 FPS and a 220 Swift AI. Not sure what the big fuss is on the 20. My wind drift with the Swift is 20" better than your 20 at 500.

Mike

Ackman
03-16-2008, 03:43 PM
This is one of the sillier posts. You have some strange ideas. You're also using faulty premise to draw flawed conclusions. And an 87gr is the only 6mm bullet worth shooting?.......are you nuts?

Take the 6BR, excellent for varmints and easy on barrels. It's a relatively conservative 6mm cartridge. A 6BR - my own - shooting 55Bal tips (.276BC) at 3880 with 250yd zero........Using your .20cal numbers, traj/wind identical at 300yds. At 400, trajectory is .2" flatter with the 6mm, windage is .3" less with the .20. At 500, trajectory is .4" flatter with 6mm, windage is .4" less with the .20. They're very close. The 65VMax isn't very far behind. And there are several more powerful 6mm varmint cartridges than the 6BR.

If you believe a .20 cal bullet will hit harder than a heavier .243 bullet doing about the same speed......go out and actually shoot some things.

VaniB
03-16-2008, 06:28 PM
This is one of the sillier posts. You have some strange ideas. You're also using faulty premise to draw flawed conclusions. And an 87gr is the only 6mm bullet worth shooting?.......are you nuts?

Take the 6BR, excellent for varmints and easy on barrels. It's a relatively conservative 6mm cartridge. A 6BR - my own - shooting 55Bal tips (.276BC) at 3880 with 250yd zero........Using your .20cal numbers, traj/wind identical at 300yds. At 400, trajectory is .2" flatter with the 6mm, windage is .3" less with the .20. At 500, trajectory is .4" flatter with 6mm, windage is .4" less with the .20. They're very close. The 65VMax isn't very far behind. And there are several more powerful 6mm varmint cartridges than the 6BR.

If you believe a .20 cal bullet will hit harder than a heavier .243 bullet doing about the same speed......go out and actually shoot some things.


Ackman,

I'm the only one who believes a 20 makes one helluva PD rig? There's no truth that I can shoot 1/4" MOA groups with it from out of my converted 700, it shoots flat out to 450yds+, has minimal wind drift, recoils little, and heats up little while I maintain a 2,000 round barrel count with it? Yea.....I'm nuts. :rolleyes: ...and that's why so many other guys have posted the same findings and satisfaction with their 204 Ruger and other 20 cal rifles compared to their bigger booming rifles that they report they are more often leaving home in the closet.

As for your 6BR using 55BT's..... Well, excuse me if I went to check out your stated stats on my own to see what you're raving about. Ok... I'll give you 3,800 FPS as likely doable and a more practical number then your qouted 3,880. Let's also compare apples to apples by staying with a 300 yard zero, instead of 250. (so I can use the same Hornady Ballistic calculator) Yes, you may very well chronograph a hot 3,880 fps with your loads, but then I can also increase my numbers on my Tac20 to 3,900 fps by loading it hotter too. Ok....on that premise, your 55 grain Nosler is very close in wind drift and trajectory to the 20 cal Sierra BK at 400 and 500 yards, (the .20 has the slight edge in both categories)But your 55BT has the almost the same velocity. (the .20 having the slight edge again) But granted..... I'll conced that your 55BT bullet IS hitting harder at both ranges. It's 706 ft.lbs vs 526 at 400 yards, and 547ft.lbs at 500 yards vs 413ft.lbs.

While I already have a rifle that I know does shoot the 39BK at 3,820FPS and does 1/4" 5 shot groups, I would be less inclined to build a rifle BASED ON THE HOPES OF BEING ABLE TO USE THE NOSLER 55BT BULLET.....to get only an increased improvement in ft.lbs energy ratings. This light bullet is the only varmint designed bullet available with a high .276 BC rating. If the rifle doesn't like the Nosler, then I'm SCREWED! Because other bullets with their lower BC will do a lower performance.

I don't think I am wrong to choose my next long distance PD rifle based on superior wind and trajectory performance...as well as ft.lbs energy on the target. Otherwise, why bother buildinga $2,500 PD rifle that's inferior to my 20Tac???

Say what you will, but you will have a hard time making the case that the 87grain VMax with a 400BC isn't a superior round hitting a PD at 771ft.lbs of energy at 500 yards, compared to your 55 gr BT hitting a t 547 ftlbs at 500 yards. (I'm probably estimating too low a muzzle velocity too at 3050 fps) But, even at the less then max 3050 fps muzzle velocity, that bullet which is 32 grains heavier then your 55 gr Nosler leaving the barrel at 3800 fps, is only 119FPS slower at 500 yards. But it hits 174 ft.pounds harder, and drifts almost 3" less. And the kicker; it also drops over 6" less!! In the event the rifle would not like the 87V max, then I could try the 75 grain Vmax which provides still all the way around better numbers then the lighter 55-58-65 grain bullets by Hornady, or Nosler.

If I were to build a 6 x 47L PD rifle, I should base it on a 55BT and pass up the 87's stats.....? As an other opinionated subscriber here once said: Are you nuts?

Now don't go crazy on me! Knowing how hot around the collar you can get, I like it better in the other threads when I happened to be on the same side as you, jumping on somebody elses ass! :D


BTW.....If anybody else agrees with Ackman, and you think that I have it wrong basing a new 6 x 47 Lapua PD varmint rifle on the 87 gr VMax for the longer 400-700 yard PD shots....then let me know. (like I say the numbers of the 87 are superior and not too far in speed of the 55's at 500 yards. .....and I still believe for out to 400 yards the 20Tac is hard to beat.


Oh BTW, Mike,
In response to your quote: My wind drift with the Swift is 20" better than your 20 at 500.
With the 6BR that Ackman has, or the 6 x 47L I'm proposing, we have a barrel after 1,100 rounds....you don't.

If barrel life didn't matter on a PD rifle, I'd go with a brake on a .260 AI or .257/284, 22-250 AI, etc.

BJS6
03-16-2008, 07:38 PM
Vani,

You are comparing the start of the upper end of 20 calibre performance range with the lower end to mid range 6mm performance.

If you want something to carry on where the Tac 20 leaves off why not get a bigger cased 6mm like a 6mm-284 or some such or a 25, maybe a plain old 25-06 ?

You are talking about a high performance rifle, you need to burn some powder and accept that the barrel will not last forever. Hell, you'd probably be happy to buy a new barrel now and then if the rifle has shot a pile of varmints way out yonder.

The barrel doesn't have to last forever, you don't have to be able to self spot your misses/hits, they will be making more powder so it is OK to burn up a decent amount with every trigger pull.

I had a 204 for a while as well as a 17 Mach IV and a 22-250AI. Shooting bunnies the small calibres will kill then just as dead but the 22-250AI sure has a lot more spectaculare terminal performance. A big cased 6mm or 25 will be even better.

I think you are trying to compromise to much if a long range rifle is what you really want.

Bryce

VaniB
03-16-2008, 08:09 PM
Vani,

..........I think you are trying to compromise to much if a long range rifle is what you really want.

Bryce

Yes Bryce...."compromise" is exactly what the whole deal here is about. And, as far as I can tell, the 6BR that a lot of guys like (and deservedly so), and the turbo charged 6 x 47Lapua that I propose to have built, should compromise very little. It seems to get it all done efficiently and with little sacrifice.

I won't know until I actually build the 28" barreled rifle with the 10 twist and shoot the 87's out of it. But, this should be the 400-800 yard rifle that takes over where my 20Tac leaves off. That I can tell, short of using a 25-06 sized cartridge, the 6x47L ought to send 87's down range on a PD to put on a good enough show, while I can still maintain a sight picture (with use of a muzzle brake), and I think the barrel should last 1,700 -2,000 rounds.

As always....you're a gentleman to correspond with.

Doug Rumbaugh
03-16-2008, 10:23 PM
I think you are under estimating the 6x47 because I get 3150 fps from a 105 AMAX If you want something that is flatter shooting than your .20 and on another level for power (like 7 times as much power), run these numbers:

7mm 162 AMAX BC .625 @ 3300 fps 7 STW/7x68 Improved

it delivers over 2100 ft-lbs at 600 yards

Put a muzzle brake on it and you can call your shots.

VarmintGuy
03-16-2008, 11:12 PM
VaniB: Your "2nd Prairie Dog Rifle" of course should be in caliber 204 Ruger!
I am in my fourth year of happiness using my 204 Ruger Rifles for Varminting!
This is an extremely efficient, accurate, flat shooting, straight shooting and effective cartridge for Prairie Dog Hunting!
Don't try to confuse folks with facts (ballistic table information) - I have found it is next to futile! I have, though, made "some believers" in the 20 cals by shooting along side them out in the Varmint fields!
I have been Hunting Prairie Dogs and other Varmints for going on 50 years now - there are few cartridges that compare better for "all around Varmint Hunting" than a 204 Ruger!
From Gophers to Coyotes this is an amazing and easy to use Varmint round!
The splendid accuracy, amazing ballistics and lack of recoil are just a few reasons the 204 Ruger does so well in high volume Varminting situations - like Prairie Dog Hunting!
Other considerations that also make the 204 Ruger a top choice for Prairie Doggin - things like slowness to heat barrels and powder efficiency, cost per shot, barrel life and brass life MUST be considered for high volume shooting.
I wouldn't choose the 204 Ruger for "2,000 yard Prairie Doggin" because I wouldn't consider shooting at a Prairie Dog from 2,000 yards away!
I have seen quite a number of Prairie Dog Hunters TRY to hit a LONE Prairie Dog at ranges past 1,000 yards and I have NEVER seen one strike the creature with fewer than 8 shots! Some have taken 20+ shots to finally "connect" with said lone Varmint! Thats NOT efficiency.
I have seen a couple "long rangers" (1,000 yards plus shots) shoot at a "covey" of Prairie Dogs on top of a mound and strike a random Prairie Dog in the midst of the cluster! This by the way is how most folks get into the official or un-official "1,000 yard club"
I would rather do my shooting from 200 to 600 yards and thin the Varmints out for the ranchers who's property I Hunt on. The 204 Ruger does just fine in this realm - and that was what it was designed to do.
I am guessing you might get 8 or 10 quick rounds off in a high volume situation with the 6x47L before it would need a "cool down" - meanwhile, I with my 204 Ruger, or you with your 20 Tactical would still be pickin off Varmints!
I was just this hour downstairs loading 204 Ruger ammunition for one of my four Varminters in this caliber - it uses 26.0 grs of powder to obtain excellent accuracy and the aforementioned wonderful ballistics! I just checked a site to see what the 6.5/284 uses for powder charges! One loading showed 53.0 grains of powder! And that double sized powder charge (twice the expense!) pushes a larger and more expensive projectile! These things, along with recoil, barrel life and barrel heating must be considered in a high volume shooting situation!
I wish you the best of luck with the 6x47L if you decide to go that way - but I recommend a 204 Ruger in a heavy barrel factory configuration!
My four factory 204's are splendidly accurate!
Save the dollars from the custom job and use that money to fill your gas tank to drive to the Prairie Dog towns - as it now looks like $4.00 a gallon gasoline will be a reality, by summer!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

VaniB
03-17-2008, 12:14 AM
Thanks Doug,

I keep looking around the websights but can only find loads like this for the 6BR and 6BR Improved (Dasher, etc)and not the 6x47:L
http://www.6mmbr.com/varmintloads.html
http://www.6mmbr.com/6BRImproved01.html

But, I really can't tell at which point these higher charge loads are going to start to cause loose primer pockets, tight bolts or premature barrel wear.

So rather then post high numbers that I can't be sure about, I stick with stats that I know are more modest. But, I'm with you and believe that I should be able to get 3,150 FPS out of the 6x47Lapua....with still some room to go. Heck, the smaller Dasher cases are being stated in that 2nd link to be doing 3,300FPS! That oughta make some 87gr stats even more impressive in getting more energy, and less trajectory drop and wind drift way out at 500 yds and beyond. (compared to other lighter bullets) An 87gr doing 3,300 FPS would be equivlent to 928Ft.lbs at 500 yards!

I'm really trying to keep away from the larger cases that you briefly mentioned, as I believe they are not nearly as efficient and will start burning out barrels faster. As well, I believe that to be able to maintain a sight picture at 200 yards or beyond with a muzzle brake, even a 17 pound rifle (probably what my rifle will weigh) shouldn't go beyond a 6x47 size case. And furthermore, I really believe what a lot of guys on this websight have to say (who do a whole lot of PD shooting).....that the big boomers wear on you too. They just take away your joy so you won't want to use them anymore, after awhile.

EDIT:

Varmint Guy,
I was posting at the same time you were. I just found your post and went through it.
That was some fun reading. For a moment, I thought I was reading an outdoors magazine. :) Yep....you are the kind of 20 cal shooter that I was referring to about having heard nothing but good things about it, and had helped convince me that a 20Tac would be a fine choice for my first custom PD and paper punching rifle. I can't tell you how pleased I am with my 20Tac. After all those years of shooting factory rifles, it's uncanny for me to have a rifle now that has trouble shooting 5 shot groups over 1/2" with first time new test loads.......including the bore fouling shots!! Though, I have to admit that using quality dies and applying anal reloading techniques (such as using 3 concentricity gages) really helps. :D

I agree with you that a 204 Ruger has to be just as good if not better then my 20Tac. But....I gotta do something
else other then another 20....if for nothing else just a little change-up. It will also be interesting to see just what that 87 grain 6mm bullet does out there at 400 yards and beyond where the 39 grainers start getting just a bit tired.

axlenut
03-17-2008, 12:51 AM
Well, it does seem logical that a smaller bullet would have less area for the wind to push on. But I don't think it works that way, mass, aerodynamics and gyroscopic effect have some play in the equation, which is all beyond me.

My very favorite varmint cartridges are the .22-250 and .257 Roberts Ackley Improved. Now my .257 AI will start a 75 grain V-Max out at around 3,500 fps (for .25" -.30" 10 shot accuracy) and absolutely vaporize a squirrel (there ain't no chucks around here) as far as I can hit with it, maybe 350 to 400 yards. Past that I can't see their little heads sticking up out of the hole and things get too ify. The .22-250 will max any 55 grain pill out to velocities where they don't arrive at the target having unraveled somewhere short of the fur. Same killing range. Really cool cartridges, but big bang and recoil. My 6mm PPC is a neat choice too, but range is limited to about 250 yards, and it shoots best with 70 grainer's.

So I have decided to try the 204 Ruger, because I don't wanna have to reform or fireform brass. So that's my next project, a completely custom, geewiz, bells and whistles, maxed out squirrel eradicating Klingon disruptor. Not because of paper ballistics, but for the mild mannered popgun report, and because it won't leave me with a concussion after a day of splattercating squirrels. I look at the .204 as a .223 on steroids, nothing more. I guess it's just a matter of taste, and having something to discuss over a brew at the PX.

tylerw02
03-17-2008, 12:58 AM
I love the .204 Ruger. I've managed prairie dogs close to 600 yards with them. I've confirmed with a Leica several at 550. It shoots like a laser and does descent in the wind. Its cheaper to load, recoils less, and heats up more slowly than many of the other rifles. I've really put the .220 Swift and .22-250 shooters to shame on our hunts. Generally, I find after 500 yards, you're out of usable gas if there is any wind and your hit percentages go down....the .204 Ruger is just a tool in the tool box.

I tend to shoot .17HMR and .17 Ackley Hornet out to 300 yards (sometimes more with the Ackley).

I use my .204 with near perfect success into the 400 yard ranges in about any conditions and into the 500s calm. After that, I pick up a bigger gun. The 6mmAI (I've only taken it on one trip...BTW, 87s go 3400-3600 fps...maybe more when RL17 comes out) seems to do the trick and have a higher hit percentage up to around from where the .204 Ruger runs low on petro 600-650. After that, I pick up the 6.5-284.

If I could have only one PD rifle what would it be? The .204 Ruger!!!!!!!!! If I could have two? .204 Ruger and 6mm AI.

Ackman
03-17-2008, 12:59 AM
Ok, this silly thread is getting really silly now. If you love the .204 great, lots of people do. If you think it's the best thing ever, that's fine too.....nothing wrong with liking whatever it is you like. But your comments don't make a lot of sense.


Ackman,

I'm the only one who believes a 20 makes one helluva PD rig? There's no truth that I can shoot 1/4" MOA groups with it from out of my converted 700, it shoots flat out to 450yds+, has minimal wind drift, recoils little, and heats up little while I maintain a 2,000 round barrel count with it? Yea.....I'm nuts. :rolleyes:

***************Roll your eyes all you want. Go back and read what I said was nuts.

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As for your 6BR using 55BT's..... Well, excuse me if I went to check out your stated stats on my own to see what you're raving about. Ok... I'll give you 3,800 FPS as likely doable and a more practical number then your qouted 3,880.

***************You don't have to "give me" anything. Every target is filed with the chrono tape attached. The accuracy load with that 55BT combo happens to be 3881. Best accuracy with the 55BK is 3919. Those aren't max and nobody's increased anything for your benefit. There are faster loads, but those are the ones I use.

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Let's also compare apples to apples by staying with a 300 yard zero, instead of 250. (so I can use the same Hornady Ballistic calculator) Yes, you may very well chronograph a hot 3,880 fps with your loads, but then I can also increase my numbers on my Tac20 to 3,900 fps by loading it hotter too. Ok....on that premise, your 55 grain Nosler is very close in wind drift and trajectory to the 20 cal Sierra BK at 400 and 500 yards, (the .20 has the slight edge in both categories)But your 55BT has the almost the same velocity. (the .20 having the slight edge again) But.....your bullet IS hitting harder at both ranges. It's 706 ft.lbs vs 526 at 400 yards, and 547ft.lbs at 500 yards vs 413ft.lbs.

***************Increase the zero to 300, the 55 shoots flatter, windage stays the same. And again, those 6BR velocities aren't pumped, they're what gets used every time out. Prairie dogs aren't big enough to be concerning yourself about ft/lbs....it doesn't take even 413 of them to kill one.
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While I already have a rifle that shoots the 39BK at 3,820FPS and does 1/4" 5 shot groups, I would be less inclined to build a rifle BASING MY HOPES ON ONE NOSLER 55BT BULLET.....to get just an increased improvement in ft.lbs energy. This bullet is the only varmint designed bullet available with a high .276 BC rating. If the rifle doesn't like the Nosler, then I'm SCREWED! Because other bullets with their lower BC will do a lower performance.

******************You don't get it. Nobody's basing their hopes on anything. The 6BR just wants to be accurate and this one shoots about everything really well. It likes anything 55-65 grains and they all blow the crap out of things. I use the 55 BlitzKing and the BalTip but prefer BT's precisely because it has the highest BC and the gun shoots them into tiny little groups. If it didn't I'd just use something else. If that something else didn't shoot quite as flat or had a little more windage, so what? The targets would never know and nobody'd be screwed. Again, are you nuts?

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I don't think I am wrong to choose my next long distance PD rifle based on superior wind and trajectory performance...as well as ft.lbs energy on the target. Otherwise, why bother buildinga $2,500 PD rifle that's inferior to my 20Tac???

*****************Why bother? Only you can answer that. Choose whatever you like. It's your money.

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Say what you will, but you will have a hard time making the case that the 87grain VMax with a 400BC isn't a superior round hitting a PD at 771ft.lbs of energy at 500 yards, compared to your 55 gr BT hitting a t 547 ftlbs at 500 yards. (I'm probably estimating too low a muzzle velocity too at 3050 fps) But, even at the less then max 3050 fps muzzle velocity, that bullet which is 32 grains heavier then your 55 gr Nosler leaving the barrel at 3800 fps, is only 119FPS slower at 500 yards. But it hits 154 ft.pounds harder, and drifts almost 3" less. And the kicker; it also drops over 6" less!! In the event the rifle would not like the 87V max, then I could try the 75 grain Vmax which provides still all the way around better numbers then the lighter 55-58-65 grain bullets by Hornady, or Nosler.

****************It doesn't take an 87gr bullet to kill a gopher. Do you really think a few more lbs/ft are gonna matter? And your numbers are wrong anyway. An 87gr bullet isn't necessary for pd's, but if I want to shoot them it won't be with the 6BR. There're a couple 6-250's, a couple 243AI's, a 6mmAI, and a .240 Gibbs and they'll all do a much better job. All this ft/lbs stuff for a 3lb target........stop throwing all your program-generated numbers around and go learn what stuff does/doesn't do by actually doing it.

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If I were to build a 6 x 47L PD rifle, I should base it on a 55BT and pass up the 87's stats.....? As an other opinionated subscriber here once said: Are you nuts?

Now don't go crazy on me! Knowing how hot around the collar you can get, I like it better in the other threads when I happened to be on the same side as you, jumping on somebody elses ass! :D


BTW.....If anybody else agrees with Ackman, and you think that I have it wrong basing a new 6 x 47 Lapua PD varmint rifle on the 87 gr VMax for the longer 400-700 yard PD shots....then let me know. (like I say...at 500 yds the numbers of the 87 are superior and practically the same speed of the 55's. .....and I still believe for out to 400 yards the 20Tac is hard to beat.

*****************Now it's 400yds. At 400 the windage/elevation with 55's and 39's are almost identical.

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Oh BTW, Mike,
In response to your quote: My wind drift with the Swift is 20" better than your 20 at 500.
With the 6BR that Ackman has, or the 6 x 47L I'm proposing, we have a barrel after 1,100 rounds....you don't.

*************You really have no idea about barrel life do you.


This stuff goes nowhere. You're confused about this stuf and throw numbers around without really even knowing what it is you're saying. A .20 and a 6mm are two completely different animals and trying to compare them is senseless. Love the .204, that's fine. The bandwagon has a lot of riders. And it's a good looking case. I've looked at numbers trying to justify a .20 cal. I also shoot the .223AI, accuracy loads with 40's are at 4100 and 4200. On paper with 40's at 4150 it's very close to the .204, actually shoots flatter. They're close enough that I personally don't see any reason going to a .20 bore size in .204 Ruger configuration. But the case does hold almost 1gr more powder than a 223AI. I just had a 22-204 built along with another 223AI and there's nowhere near $2500 invested in either of them. That first 223AI has 1200-1500rds through it.....the throat has grown about .012".

kolineman
03-17-2008, 11:33 AM
Why not build a 20-250 Improved. Want a hot-rod, gotta pay the price. Kevin Weaver of Weaver rifles built mine, shot 39 gr Sierra's at 4375 fps...50 gr Bergers at 4075 fps. Very, very flat. Awesome work for coyotes with the 39's.............

VaniB
03-17-2008, 12:28 PM
Ackman,

That was interesting reading.

To sum it up, I'm simply trying to find a rifle to use for PD hunting to shoot at 400 to 500 yards and beyond, where my 20Tac leaves off. Yes you are right that a small animal like a PD, (or a paper target which I commonly hunt at my local firing range) doesn't require a whole lot of Ft.Lbs of energy delivered onto the mark. This is precisely the reason, why I'm very satisfied with my 20Tac for the first 400-500 yards.

It's choosing a 2nd rifle to pick up after 400-500 yards that will still maintain a sight picture (with a muzzle brake if necessary), low barrel wear, and very good wind bucking and trajectory aspects is tricky. And I was saying that all the aspects of my 20Tac PD rifle for those first 400-500 yards had left me spoiled where I want similar performance in the next rifle for 500 yards and out. I don't want a barrel burner, or something that doesn't let me see the hit. Settling for no less then to have all these aspects in one rifle IS NOT AN OPTIONand greatly reduces the choices. Now you see why it can be tricky?

I think you and I agree tha the 6BR is a superior round, with the stretched 6BR (in the form of a 6x47 Lapua) being my preference because it has more horsepower for heavier bullets out IN THE DISTANCE. That I can tell, this is the only cartridge that will provide all my forementioned demands. Again, I stress to you "IN THE DISTANCE". Because I already have a great 20cal rifle, and don't need to duplicate the same PD ass-wumpin performace up close to 400-500 yards with a new $2,500 6mm cal rifle.

"IN THE DISTANCE" is where the heavier and higher ballistic coefficient bullets of the 6mm cal bullets like the 87's come in to play. It's not for no good reason that a lot of distance shooters skip over the .400BC 87grain bullets and choose the .500 BC 105grain bullets altogether. But, being I'm shooting PDs at long distance ....and I'm not after competition paper at long distance....the 87's with their VMax tip, and less recoil, are preferred over the .500BC 105's and some other great VLD bullets.

If I had a straight 6BR (non-improved and not a 6 x47Lapua) with a certain twist barrel like you already have, then I'd proceed in trying to work with it to meet my mentioned goals. But, being I am starting fresh in building a $2,500 rifle, doesn't carefully fine tuning the case choice, twist, and bullet weight to deliver the demands that I clearly layed out here on this post make a little more sense to you now? I realize with so much information I present in my long posts, it can be confusing to others of what my actual goal is. I really believe that if I choose wisely, I can get a 6BR based rifle (in the form of a 6x47 Lapua) to meet the forementioned demands. (ie; great trajectory, wind bucking, maintaing a sight picture, long barrel life, all in a rifle intended for shots beyond 400 yards, and out to 700+)

EDIT:
PS Ackman.... about your quote; "I just had a 22-204 built along with another 223AI and there's nowhere near $2500 invested in either of them ".....When I refer to a custom rifle as costing me $2,500.....I'm including the rifle action and stock, the scope, rings, dies, and reamer....all of which I needed to buy. When it's all done, it's going to be a good bit over $2,500 sitting there on my bench. YMWV depending on what you already have on hand.

Tyler,
I was hoping I'd hear from you, as I know you have a lot of experience with PD shooting and that you've used a lot of differen't calibers. Thanks for the input.

Talon1959
03-17-2008, 12:30 PM
What rifles do you have in .204? I was wondering if your shooting one of the XR-100's in .204. Have a good one.

VarmintGuy
03-17-2008, 12:45 PM
Ackman: You are CHOOSING TO IGNORE the benefits and performance of the 204 Ruger!
THAT, is silly!
Buying a custom Rifle in caliber 223 Ackley Improved (and we ALL know they are WAY more expensive than a good factory Rifle!), buying the expensive dies, fireforming ALL the cases needed for Colony Varminting and the increased recoil of heavier calibers (the 223 Remington Ackley Improved included) are factors that are NOT SILLY either!
Been there done that (AI's)!
Don't ignore these factors.
That, is silly!
Especially when a Prairie Dogger or Colony Varminter can get such sensational ballistics and lethal performance from a FACTORY CARTRIDGE - and do it much cheaper with less effort!
I am glad you are enjoying the extra work and extra investment that wildcatting mandates!
Enjoy your rigs - BUT - don't denigrate the fine 204 Ruger in any way shape or form while you are doing the above!
That, is silly!
The 204 Ruger is an absolutely outstanding "all around Varminting cartridge" and some of us who actually OWN and HUNT with 204 Ruger's won't let you get away with such a bold faced error as you are trying to get away with!
Those of us that Hunt Varmints year round and Hunt them at night, KNOW the benefits of of a Rifle with no or very little recoil!
The difference in recoil from the 223 Remington Ackley Improved and the 204 Ruger makes for a noticeable advantage to the 204 Ruger!
Tylerw02 is right, that out past 550 yards or thereabouts there are better calibers, for that use EXCLUSIVELY, but 99% of all Varmints are killt at ranges under 550 yards!
And thats where the 204 Ruger shines!
And that is NOT SILLY - its a fact!
Ignore it if you wish, but again - that would be silly!
Before besmirching a fine and popular round like the 204 Ruger I suggest you buy one and actually put it to use for a year or so under all Varminting conditions (including night Hunting!) and then I am sure YOUR silly opinion will be changed!
I have been Varminting for a long time and have seen many fad cartridges come and go - the 204 Ruger IS not a fad, it is for real!
It will cut down on loading bench and range bench time with its factory brass availability - and the money one saves going with the factory Rifle, less expensive dies and good barrel and brass life will be better spent on fuel, for, more Hunting excursions.
I am not easily impressed with calibers or new cartridges - nor am I overly critical of same!
I am so impressed with the 204 Ruger cartridge as an "all around Varminting cartridge" that I declare it as one of the top three "all around Varminting cartridges", of all time!
I had occassion to watch a recent episode of the TV show "Predator Quest" where the host was Hunting Coyotes in Nevada using his new Rifle in caliber 204 Ruger! The host had called in a threesome of Coyotes and his partner shot at and missed one of the Coyotes. They all took off at warp speed angling away from the host. He killt that Coyote at an absolute flat out as fast as it could run speed, with a single shot from the 204 Ruger! And it was NOT a close in shot. That Coyote I am estimating was 250 - 280 yards out and leaving at 45 MPH! No holdover, very little "lead" needed, no recoil and splendid lethality! At the instant of the shot that Coyote tumbled and rolled never to move again!
The host was obviously impressed! As was I.
Then later in the same show he accomplished another similar shot with the same result.
I have as yet to kill a running Coyote with any of my 204's. All have been standing or walking shots at ranges out to 425 yards (lots of Coyotes here in the high plains of the Rockies are call shy and they hang up "out there"!).
At 4,200 F.P.S. it does NOT take long for that 204 Ruger projectile to cover 250 yards! The more speed ones bullet has, the less "lead" necessary on running Varmints.
I hope you get the chance to actually use a 204 Ruger afield.
Long live the 204 Ruger!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

tylerw02
03-17-2008, 01:38 PM
No problem. I usually am quite skeptical about cartridges. I worried about fouling and heat with the .204 Ruger when it first came out. But I guess it was late '04, I bought one anyway. I thought it would never catch on and be another .17 Rem.

I was pleasantly surprised. Never would I have thought I'd have a barrel with performance like that that stays clean, heats slow, costs less to shoot than the big 22s and after 4k rounds the barrel still shoots well under moa.

The .204 Ruger is the varmint colony hunters' dream!

Hornady got it right. Maybe the new 6.5 Creedmoor will be the 6.5mm equivalent to the .204 Ruger as a varmint round and do to the .260, 6.5x47, and 6.5-284 what the 204 Ruger did to the .223, .220 Swift, and .22-250.

Duce
03-17-2008, 03:22 PM
I have shot a few Pdogs here in Kansas and for distance and wind I like the 243 WSSM
with these ballistics
Distance (yds) Velocity (fps) Energy (ft.lbs.) Short Trajectory (in.) Long Trajectory (in.)
Muzzle 4060 2013 - -
50 - - -0.5 -
100 3628 1607 0.0 0.6
150 - - -0.2 0.7
200 3237 1280 -1.2 0.0
250 - -- -2.9 -1.5
300 2880 1013 -5.6 -3.9
400 2550 794 - -12
500 2243 614 - -25.5
and it is a 6mm

Duce

Talon1959
03-17-2008, 03:49 PM
My varmint and predator hunting is always inside of 200 yards where I hunt. I have a Savage 11 in .204 and I can't think of hunting bobcats and yotes with anything else. Maybe a .223 (only because I don't have one yet) :cool:

I shoot factory Hornady 40 grain V-max's because that's what the rifle likes. I say shoot what you have confidence in and rock and roll. :D

RayfromTX
03-17-2008, 04:05 PM
VaniB
I have a 204ruger that is actually too much fun to shoot. It is seriously cutting into my practice time with my 6ppc. I just love it. For my second rifle I am building a switch barrel. I have a second 204ruger barrel and a 243ai barrel. When I head to the fields my plan is to screw on the 243ai barrel. If I decide that the shots out past 500 just aren't there that day or week, I will just screw on the extra 204 barrel and shoot it while my other 204 is cooling. I like the 105 grain bullet out to almost 1000 and I don't expect to be burning up the barrel too soon because as I said, the 204 is just too fun to shoot. Why punish my shoulder except for the occasional long splash shots.

My advice is to build a switch barrel and don't compromise. Make sure that your scopes, stocks, and triggers are the same so changing from rifle to rifle is less hassle and more natural.

Doug Rumbaugh
03-17-2008, 07:44 PM
The 6x47L shooting 105 AMAX's @ 3125 gives you half as much wind diflection, 4 times the energy and is slightly flatter than your 20 at around 500 yards. Now, after 500 yards the differences majorly increase as the 39 grainer fades. That would, and was, my choice in the 500-1000 yard range.

Ackman
03-17-2008, 11:06 PM
Well Vani, your first posts are so full of nonsense it was hard to know where to begin. Now you're saying what you want is for shots past 4-500yds.... this was never mentioned before.

There's no free lunch. If you want to reach out farther, throwing bigger bullets fast enough to shoot flat takes horsepower. A 6mm can do good things with the right combination. What works for me is pushing 70's through a 243AI at 3800-3850. A 6mmAI will push them about 4100. A 70BT at that velocity will flip a rockchuck 18" in the air at 650yds. Not the same thing as lobbing heavy target bullets through paper. Going fast and flat with bigger bullets takes powder capacity and there's no getting around it. Some cases might give more velocity per grain of powder than others, but there's no magic.

Ackman
03-17-2008, 11:30 PM
Ackman: You are CHOOSING TO IGNORE the benefits and performance of the 204 Ruger!
THAT, is silly!
Buying a custom Rifle in caliber 223 Ackley Improved (and we ALL know they are WAY more expensive than a good factory Rifle!), buying the expensive dies, fireforming ALL the cases needed for Colony Varminting and the increased recoil of heavier calibers (the 223 Remington Ackley Improved included) are factors that are NOT SILLY either!
Been there done that (AI's)!
Don't ignore these factors.
That, is silly!
Especially when a Prairie Dogger or Colony Varminter can get such sensational ballistics and lethal performance from a FACTORY CARTRIDGE - and do it much cheaper with less effort!
I am glad you are enjoying the extra work and extra investment that wildcatting mandates!
Enjoy your rigs - BUT - don't denigrate the fine 204 Ruger in any way shape or form while you are doing the above!
That, is silly!
The 204 Ruger is an absolutely outstanding "all around Varminting cartridge" and some of us who actually OWN and HUNT with 204 Ruger's won't let you get away with such a bold faced error as you are trying to get away with!
Those of us that Hunt Varmints year round and Hunt them at night, KNOW the benefits of of a Rifle with no or very little recoil!
The difference in recoil from the 223 Remington Ackley Improved and the 204 Ruger makes for a noticeable advantage to the 204 Ruger!
Tylerw02 is right, that out past 550 yards or thereabouts there are better calibers, for that use EXCLUSIVELY, but 99% of all Varmints are killt at ranges under 550 yards!
And thats where the 204 Ruger shines!
And that is NOT SILLY - its a fact!
Ignore it if you wish, but again - that would be silly!
Before besmirching a fine and popular round like the 204 Ruger I suggest you buy one and actually put it to use for a year or so under all Varminting conditions (including night Hunting!) and then I am sure YOUR silly opinion will be changed!
I have been Varminting for a long time and have seen many fad cartridges come and go - the 204 Ruger IS not a fad, it is for real!
It will cut down on loading bench and range bench time with its factory brass availability - and the money one saves going with the factory Rifle, less expensive dies and good barrel and brass life will be better spent on fuel, for, more Hunting excursions.
I am not easily impressed with calibers or new cartridges - nor am I overly critical of same!
I am so impressed with the 204 Ruger cartridge as an "all around Varminting cartridge" that I declare it as one of the top three "all around Varminting cartridges", of all time!
I had occassion to watch a recent episode of the TV show "Predator Quest" where the host was Hunting Coyotes in Nevada using his new Rifle in caliber 204 Ruger! The host had called in a threesome of Coyotes and his partner shot at and missed one of the Coyotes. They all took off at warp speed angling away from the host. He killt that Coyote at an absolute flat out as fast as it could run speed, with a single shot from the 204 Ruger! And it was NOT a close in shot. That Coyote I am estimating was 250 - 280 yards out and leaving at 45 MPH! No holdover, very little "lead" needed, no recoil and splendid lethality! At the instant of the shot that Coyote tumbled and rolled never to move again!
The host was obviously impressed! As was I.
Then later in the same show he accomplished another similar shot with the same result.
I have as yet to kill a running Coyote with any of my 204's. All have been standing or walking shots at ranges out to 425 yards (lots of Coyotes here in the high plains of the Rockies are call shy and they hang up "out there"!).
At 4,200 F.P.S. it does NOT take long for that 204 Ruger projectile to cover 250 yards! The more speed ones bullet has, the less "lead" necessary on running Varmints.
I hope you get the chance to actually use a 204 Ruger afield.
Long live the 204 Ruger!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Not again. You've learned a couple new $3 words..... "denigrate" "besmirching." And you won't let me "get away with such a bold faced error......" as I'm trying to "get away with." Well ain't you the one though**. Still the pompous self-important windbag. And you're such a complete bore that struggling through one of your posts is painfully difficult. As with everything else you post, this one is mostly complete nonsense. Not even worth answering.

BTW-It's "bAld-faced", not "bOld faced"....."bold face" refers to font.

**As Edith Bunker used to say.....

tylerw02
03-18-2008, 12:26 AM
My 6.5-284 launching 100gr Nosler BTs at around 3500 sure has thrown some pd's in the air! 140s do a number on them.

One particular prairie poodle I swear flew 5 ft in the air at 650 yards with a 100 gr pill.

VarmintGuy
03-18-2008, 12:04 PM
Ackman: Don't answer anything - fine with me.
I didn't ask you to.
Nor did I ask you to go into your immature mode where you completely "IGNORE" facts and other folks real life in the field experiences and head right to the school boy tactics of trying to insult and denigrate others. All the while NOT interjecting any evidentiary items or facts.
You are simply a joke with a pre-teen mentality.
Unable or unwilling to enter into mature discourse.
Those are your problems - I would suggest you try to deal with them, somehow.
And for the record I will not let you get away with a BOLD FACED (or glaring!) error like you are trying to do!
If it takes another post to point out the error of your "misconceptions" I won't hesitate to get that done!
The 204 Ruger is an absolutely splendid "all around Varmint cartridge" and nothing in any of your posts indicates anything different!
I AGAIN suggest you purchase a 204 Ruger use it for a couple of years and THEN maybe someone will care what you say about it?
Til then I strongly urge you to try to make a manly attempt at "maturing", significantly!
He-he - somehow I think you don't have it in you!
Facts, figures and real life experiences PLEASE - keep your childish behavior to yourself if you don't mind. Your behavior is way below the dignity of this forum.
It never ceases to amaze me how quickly your type resorts to insults when you are unable to argue a contention.
He-he.
You may consider my 4 years of at the range and in the field experiences with 4 different Rifles in 204 Ruger caliber, and my relaying said experiences and observations, to you and others as pompous - I don't!
Your "silly" observation and ignorances are duly noted, now try to come up with an enlightened argument.
Again, I don't think you have it in you!
Long live the wonderful 204 Ruger!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Ackman
03-18-2008, 05:50 PM
****************First there's 1), then 2) in the same post. This is a mixed up fellow.
1) Ackman: Don't answer anything - fine with me. I didn't ask you to.
2) .......now try to come up with an enlightened argument.


OK Varmint Guy, give it a rest. Your opinion of anything doesn't matter to me. And nobody cares what you like to shoot, and nobody's trying to convince you of anything. And especially, nobody needs to prove anything to you so cut the self-righteous crap.

VarmintGuy
03-18-2008, 11:35 PM
Ackman: Shrink your head down just a bit their buddie!
I am still waiting for some, ANY enlightened evidence or experience you may have with a 204 Ruger!
I am not expressing opinions alone here Ackman - I am backed up by ballistic tables, four years of in the hunting fields and at the range experiences, and by the learned opinions of not just those who post here but of my friends who also own and shoot Rifles in 204 Ruger caliber!
I have one friend who is an accomplished Colony Varminter and he has 6 Rifles in caliber 204 Ruger so far! I say so far because my man Armand has 25 Rifles in caliber 22-250 alone, I am sure he will have another 204 or two by summer!
His opinion of the 204 Ruger is so high that he and I were conversing and we were comparing calibers for Varminting (a couple months back now) and he opined that if he were starting Varminting today that he would only buy and use Rifles in caliber 204 Ruger!
That is a strong recommendation from a life long shooter, wealthy person and experienced Varminter who could have (and has!) Varmint Rifles in virtually every caliber imagineable!
I completely agree with him - if I were to start Varmint Hunting today instead of back in 1958, I would be just happy as a clam with a bunch of Varminters in caliber 204 Ruger ONLY!
Its that good!
And if you THINK ballistic tables LIE then prove it!
Also if you have PROOF to the contrary of my opinions then post it!
And indeed, you DO need to prove up or shut up!
I will have to thank you for knocking off the immature tripe in your latest posting BUT your latest posting is again void of anything definitive or credible!
Not ONE credible thing!
You are not trying, ANY MORE, to convince me of anything.
Especially with your unsubstantiated, bold faced, tripe!
LONG live the 204 Ruger!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

tylerw02
03-19-2008, 12:23 PM
Ackman, sounds as though you were the first one to start attacking somebody in your very first post.

The ballistic data suggests to match the .204 Ruger with a 39 SBK at 3900 to 500 yards, one must push a 87 gr V-Max to 3675 fps to match drop nearly identically. To push that bullet at that rate, you can beat the .204 Ruger in the wind by .6" per 1 mph. The lighter 6mm projectiles offer no advantage over the .204" projectiles beyond 500, so why consider them? Owning both a .20 and a 6, I can confirm this data is pretty much right on.

I know of three common cartridges to do that: the 6mmAI, the 6-284, and the .240 Weatherby. All burn close to double the powder and the bullets cost twice as much.

To 500, the .204 is the clear winner, while beyond 500, the big sixes are the clear winner. The thing about shooting beyond 500 is is you must pay to play. If you're shooting under 500 yards (as that is the range MOST prairie dogs and other varmints are killed), it makes no sense to pay more for the 6mm cartridges that offer no significant improvement in exterior ballistics.

Ackman
03-19-2008, 03:07 PM
This gets real old. OK, for the last time.....

Tyler - My very first post was in response to some flatout wrong assumptions. Now you're making assumptions too.......I don't shoot 87's, never said I did, and don't shoot a 6BR past 500yds. with any bullet, never even mentioned it. So your whole second paragraph is irrelevant and simply doesn't apply. Now I don't give a crap what you shoot and anything you like is fine....whatever makes you happy is what you should be using, and I've said that a few times to a couple different people. I can read numbers from a ballistic program too and don't see anything working better than what already works very well for me.

Varmintguy - Champion windbag. This thread went from silly to sillier, now it's funny and pathetic. You have serious problems.

tylerw02
03-19-2008, 03:25 PM
What advantage does your 6mmBR offer over the .204 Ruger/.20Tac to 500 yards?

tylerw02
03-19-2008, 03:27 PM
This is one of the sillier posts. You have some strange ideas. You're also using faulty premise to draw flawed conclusions. And an 87gr is the only 6mm bullet worth shooting?.......are you nuts?

Take the 6BR, excellent for varmints and easy on barrels. It's a relatively conservative 6mm cartridge. A 6BR - my own - shooting 55Bal tips (.276BC) at 3880 with 250yd zero........Using your .20cal numbers, traj/wind identical at 300yds. At 400, trajectory is .2" flatter with the 6mm, windage is .3" less with the .20. At 500, trajectory is .4" flatter with 6mm, windage is .4" less with the .20. They're very close. The 65VMax isn't very far behind. And there are several more powerful 6mm varmint cartridges than the 6BR.

If you believe a .20 cal bullet will hit harder than a heavier .243 bullet doing about the same speed......go out and actually shoot some things.

Your own suggestion doesn't offer any advantages. I think his premise is to EXCEED the .20, you need to shoot a bigger bullet and push it faster.

What is so strange about his idea that using a mild 6mm offers no advantage to a .20 under 500 yards?

Ackman
03-19-2008, 04:17 PM
What advantage does your 6mmBR offer over the .204 Ruger/.20Tac to 500 yards?

This is tiresome.

Go back and read my damned post. The very first one. A 55gr bullet with larger diameter will hit harder than a 40, otherwise there is no advantage......the two are so close in trajectory/windage as to be the same. Since I already have something that does a certain thing, why be getting something else completely different that does the same thing? That should explain it so you understand. And now maybe you'll knock of this crap. Endless bickering about every dumb thing in a dumb post gets real old. Shoot whatever you want, like whatever you like, and think whatever you want to think, I don't care. Don't be telling me that something is when it isn't, and that I should like something because you think it's wonderful.

tylerw02
03-19-2008, 04:37 PM
This is tiresome.

Go back and read my damned post. The very first one. A 55gr bullet with larger diameter will hit harder than a 40, otherwise there is no advantage......the two are so close in trajectory/windage as to be the same. Since I already have something that does a certain thing, why be getting something else completely different that does the same thing? That should explain it so you understand. And now maybe you'll knock of this crap. Endless bickering about every dumb thing in a dumb post gets real old. Shoot whatever you want, like whatever you like, and think whatever you want to think, I don't care. Don't be telling me that something is when it isn't, and that I should like something because you think it's wonderful.

Which is back to the point...no reason in him getting one! What is his faulty logic?

At 3600, your Nosler has 484 ft/lbs. The .204 Ruger has 449 ft/lbs at 3950 with Sierras. I don't think that really constitutes much...not enough for a prairie dogs to notice ;)

Oh, by the way, by 600, the .204 Ruger will pretty much meet it on energy ;)

His logic seems pretty accurate to me. I'm glad you like your 6mmBR, and you are right, there is no reason for you to get a .204 Ruger, nor is there a reason for the original poster to get a tame 6mm. If he wants to exceed 204 performance, he needs a big 6.

Ackman
03-19-2008, 06:48 PM
Which is back to the point...no reason in him getting one! What is his faulty logic?

At 3600, your Nosler has 484 ft/lbs. The .204 Ruger has 449 ft/lbs at 3950 with Sierras. I don't think that really constitutes much...not enough for a prairie dogs to notice ;)

Oh, by the way, by 600, the .204 Ruger will pretty much meet it on energy ;)

His logic seems pretty accurate to me. I'm glad you like your 6mmBR, and you are right, there is no reason for you to get a .204 Ruger, nor is there a reason for the original poster to get a tame 6mm. If he wants to exceed 204 performance, he needs a big 6.

Tyler.....are you really so obtuse or is this just a put on? Go back and read the posts once more.......

*I never told him to get anything. I said his 6mm info was faulty and used a 6BR as an example.

* The 55 is doing 3881, not 3600. Another bullet is at 3919 using a newer powder lot, but I haven't tried shooting the BT any faster or with that same powder and used the 3880 number. Those are numbers for my rifle with a braked 24" barrel. Numbers can be all over the place from gun to gun, but other people have posted similar velocity. So it's nothing that someone else can't duplicate.

I zero at 250 but ok......300yd zero: 6500' elevation - 80*temp - 1.8" scope height - 10mph cross wind......

300 - Zero - wind 6BR/5.6" --- wind 204/5.5"

400 - drop 6BR/6.4" --- wind 6BR/10.5"
400 - drop 204/6.5" --- wind 204/10.2"

500 - drop 6BR/17.4" --- wind 6BR/17.1"
500 - drop 204/17.6" --- wind 204/16.7"

If you ever do shoot 500yds with either gun, in a 10mph side wind the difference in drift is 4/10"......about 1/2 the width of your little finger. That's it. Otherwise they're identical. If the windage difference were twice or three times that much, it still wouldn't mean squat. Work out the energy level yourself - 55@3880fps. So you tell me that one is tremendously better - or even sorta better - than the other. Except for the 6 having more energy, they're othewise virually identical.

Comprehend?

Armed in Utah
03-19-2008, 11:03 PM
Guess I better not give my experiences with either the 6BR or 204 past 500 yds on p/dogs.......:eek:

VaniB
03-20-2008, 01:57 AM
Tyler,
Well, I must admit that in desiring to share my ideas with others, (and seeking input) I often do what amounts to a lot of thinking out loud. But, through all the rambling, you understood the underlying message I was trying to get accross when you made these comments pertaining to me:



His logic seems pretty accurate to me. I think his premise is to EXCEED the .20, you need to shoot a bigger bullet and push it faster.......What is so strange about his idea that using a mild 6mm offers no advantage to a .20 under 500 yards?"



Yes, Tyler, that in a nutshell is exactly the point I've been making. Thanks.

To VarmintGuys delight, I will reiterate the facts; my 20 is ultra flat shooting, ultra wind bucking, shoots 1/4" groups, at 3,820FPS, recoils low enough to maintain a sight picture at 100 yards. ( With my 16lb rifle, I can see the bullet holes appear on the paper) All this while providing a very long barrel life.

For a couple of years now I had believed that the 6XC cartridge (or at least some sort of an improved Dasher style 6BR cartridge) would be my ultimate "long distance" PD rifle. Because I had always heard how the .243 bullet was more wind resistant then a .22 bullet, I eroneously concluded that it had to be even that much better then when compared to a light 20 cal bullet.

So when the 6x47L Lapua brass case came out, I thought I had my dream gun all figured out. So, I purchased my HS Varmint stock, a new .243 bolt faced 700 SS action, before I had even finished putting a scope on my custom 20Tac and trying it out.

Well, I fired my 20Tac for the first time during the last month......exactly a year after my gunsmith had handed it over to me. (oh did I mention that I'm a procrastinator? :D ) I couldn't believe the accuracy I was getting with my bore foulers and first time experimental loads!

I had previously always considered the 20 cal some kind of small and fringe cartridge. I had always thought of it as too small and light. After the firing range results, I started to take the rifle more seriously and ran a series of ballistic comparisons. I ran it against practically every 6mm weight bullet out there. For a 400 to 450 and maybe up to 500 yards, nothing compares to it. There is no reason to use a harder recoiling gun for the first 450 yards of PD shooting. And to closely maintain the same kind of impressive ballistics, you are absolutely right that I would have to push a heavy bullet out of a big case. And, at that point, as Ackman would say, "their are no fee lunches". Their is going to be significantly more powder useage, recoil, and barrel wear involved. Where I had previously printed many pages of ballistics using the Hornady ballistics calculator from their websight, it only went up to 500 yards. I just discovered this ballistics calculator, and printed sheets to compare and study all the 6mm grain bullets side by side: http://www.eskimo.com/~jbm/ballistics/traj_basic/traj_basic.html
This websight allows me to calculate the ballistics beyond 500 yards and out to 700 which would likely be my desired practical max. I keep coming up with the same conclusion that the 87 Grain Vmax with a 400BC at a MV of 3150 FPS, is better then any other weight bullet. (And I also calculated somebody elses preference; the Nosler 55BT with a .276BC doing a MV of 3800) The lighter bullets shine for the first few hundred yards, but start to substancilly lose their advantage where I can't justify using them. Yes, their might be higher velocity loads possible with these lighter bullets in a 6x47, but so too with the 87. So I picked safe and doable muzzle velocity numbers, without getting carried away with max figures that might be pushing the limits.

I don't believe I want to try a 243 AckleyI. I just can't stand to think of the barrel wear. In fact, if a barrel burner, is an option, I would seriously consider a 20/250. There's some intersesting posts about it by guys like "1holer", "DAA", and "20-250AI" over at Saubier. Some really serious yote hunting done with this round. (not that I ever intend to use my rifle for that) There's some posts about the 50 grain bullet doing 4,100- 4,200fps, but I'm satisfied enough with the ballistics of that 20 cal 50 grain berger doing 4050fps, and did calculations on that number. At 600 yards the 87 grain 6mm bullet drops -36.3" zeroed at 400 yards....while the 50 grain Berger 20-250 drops only -25.7

Like I said, a 20 cal is one very impressive cartridge for a varmint rifle. It makes it hard for me to be enthusistic about a 6mm. But, the fact is from all ballistic data indications, that the 6x47L (using 87grVmax) will still be a fairly qualified improvement at 500-700 yard shooting over my 20Tac. As good as the 20Tac ballistics are, 500-700 yards is no longer its practical range.

I'm still leaning on the 6x47Lapua with an 87 grain bullet as a pretty darn good compromise. It would do very well on PD for the 600-700 yards. What I have found is that the ballistic show that it goes 40FPS faster at 600 yards then what the 55 grain BT bullet is doing at 600 yards.But because it so much heavier it hits with 688ft.lbs vs the 413ft.lbs of the 55grain bullet. Though the 87 grain bullet drops 5" more then the lighter 55 grain BT bullet, it blows over 6" less! Those are pretty good numbers, and I suppose a sacrifice of the 5" drop is a good trade off for the wind bucking and powerfull hitting energy. The 50 grain 20-250 bullet on the other hand would hit with 493 ft lbs of energy at 600 yards, and drops 6" less then the 55BT 6mm bullet! But the "lunch" to pay here is using a badly overbore bullet.

I still haven't ruled any of the 20 or 6mm cartridges out.
Like I say, the 20's got me spoiled and it's hard to find a good 600-700 yard supplement.

As far as Ackman goes....I think he's a good guy....just opinionated. (yea...like I'm not?) I find this amusing as he kind of reminds me of that TV Marine gunny guy, or "Red" from "That 70's Show". It's kind of neat to have the temperment and skill like that to make your point known just short of calling someone a dumb ass. :D

I think a lot of this information on this thread might be enlightening to some folks that weren't fully versed in the 20's and the 6mm's for varmint purposes. Other guys like Ackman will be content with what they have......and I can accept if they don't care to see things my way.

tylerw02
03-20-2008, 11:42 AM
I don't think Ackman was paying attention to what I was saying. That is all good and well. I'm sure he is a great guy. Most people are opinionated. Its funny to watch Varmintguy and him go at it about ever quarter or so.

Ack had no place, as I quoted his first post, to say you were being silly and using faulty logic when there is no flaw in it. I used the hot numbers from my load books (I don't know what velocity is possible with the tame 6mmBR, never owned one---I'm a hunter and not a BR guy) to do my calculations which showed 3600-3650 as a max load. Anyway, either cartridge works quite well and you asked about a 6-6.5x47, not a 6mmBR in the first place.

As far as energy is concerned, it doesn't take much to kill a prairie dog, just depends on if you want the "red mist" and the dramatic effect. I've killed dogs out past 500 and the terminal affect isn't that great with the .20. On the otherhand, the dramatic effect isn't that great at any range if you use Lapua or Berger match bullets. I haven't done much testing with my AI past that range on dogs yet, but using the dent'n'scratch specials to fire-form my AI brass, there is pretty good terminal effects past 600 yards with the 6mmAI. My 6.5-284 really does a number with 100 gr Nosler BTs out at 700+ yards...then the 140 Bergers are just hole-punchers for pd carcases.

Anyway, being skeptical from the beginning, I'm a real 204 Ruger advocate...and .204" caliber in general.

If you want to supplement your 20, a hotter 6mm is the way to go. The 6mmAI or the 6-284 would do the trick with 87 gr V-Maxes, pushing them to 3600 with a better BC than any of the .204" bullets. I've heard of some guys hitting 3700 with 87s, but I tend to believe that is pushing it. Both cartridges require some sizing if you want high quality brass. One can use 7x57 Norma brass and neck to 6mm and fireform for the 6mmAI (myself, I just use Win) or you can take Lapua 6.5-284 brass and neck to 6mm for the 6-284. Myself, I went with a 6mmAI so I wouldn't mix 6-284 and 6.5-284 brass.

Roger T
03-21-2008, 02:01 PM
Vani,why would you want to increase your (range) by only 100-200 yds,if you want to build a new rifle,build one that will at least double your present limits.It really doesn't cost that much more(well that depends)build for Accuracy.It's true that velocity will help but it's no good if you can't hit what you aim at,(that being said) I do own 2 6-284s with 12 twist barrels that will shoot the 87 gr V-Maxs at 3725 with H-1000 and group in the low .2s at 200 1.3 at 500 and 4.6 at 800.The most USED of the two has 4326 rds. through the tube with 2 set backs and recrowns.Not that this is for everyone but it WORKS for me.I do have a 204 also and a .223,222mag,5.6x52.6PPC,.243 ,6mm Rem,the 6-284s,257 AI,260, 260 AI 6.5 IHMSA,6.5x222mag,6.5 284.270 win 270 WSM,7-08,280 AI,7mm STW,308 win 30-06 300win,300 RUM,338 Lapua,375HH ,416 Rigby,458 win. The options are many, they all have their uses and they all have their TRADE OFFs. Enjoy shooting the Cal. Cart. of your choice.

tylerw02
03-21-2008, 02:17 PM
Roger brings up quite a good point. A custom rifle is going to run you at least 2k and probably close to half that again on optics, dies, and brass. If you make that much investment, why only increase range 100-200 yards? A 6-284, 6mmAI, 6.5-284, .25-06, .25-284, etc will get you another 300 or 400 yards easy.