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Cabin Mike
03-10-2008, 01:32 PM
To All,
The conditions were not good this past weekend. We had 9” of snow fall between Friday noon and Saturday noon with stiff winds swirling most of the weekend. I did finally get a little testing done during a break in the weather Saturday into Saturday evening. Sunday was a day of more stiff swirling winds that wouldn’t allow any meaningful testing.

Rogers Muzzle Device that I have has one each of the following weights: ½ oz Aluminum (can only be used by it’s self or last in any sequence), 1 oz Aluminum, 2 oz, 3 oz, 4 oz, & 5 oz Stainless Steel. With this weight assortment there won’t be as many different sequence variations as originally thought (I thought there would be 3 weights of Aluminum & 3 of Stainless Steel). I still think there will be enough different sequences to find the needed weight. I’m sure the weights used could be changed by using more aluminum weights to possibly increase the variations in the lower weight sequences if needed.

The criteria I decided upon with my testing was to shoot five groups of three shots with each weight sequence tried. I would measure the groups for the total vertical outside to outside. Then I would drop the low and high groups. Then I averaged the remaining three groups. I’m hoping that this would give me enough data to help lead me the right direction with the weights and help me analyze the results so I could understand what I’m seeing and why.

With the difficult shooting conditions I was not able to see the definitive results I was hoping for. I did see some promising groups at some of the weight sequences. My measured groups were in a range of 0.240 to 0.580 outside to outside. There was very good variance with different weight sequences showing the affects of changing weights. I hope to have better weather for meaningful testing next weekend. I really think the optimum weight sequence is there, I just have to find it and then test it against my old adjustable tuner with its proven setting.

I would like to add that Rogers Muzzle Device is one very well made piece of equipment. It shows that he takes great pride in what he is doing. The fit and look of it is awesome. I would like to thank Roger and Bill for allowing me to test this new Muzzle Device.

Mike Sherrill

p.s. Here are a couple of pictures.

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/03-09-08_Muzzle_Device_4.JPG

Rogers Muzzle Device

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/03-08-08_snow_4.JPG

A little snow anyone?

RvA
03-10-2008, 04:49 PM
Mike,

I really appreciate you taking the time and effort to test this device, it really means a lot and I'm sure a lot of good data will come from it. But I really don't think you could have tried to pick worse conditions to shoot in!! I just hope the next time you go out you have a better day.

Best,

Roger

DonMatzeder
03-10-2008, 05:28 PM
I don't know your position on ringing a barrel is, heck I don't know my position on that, but do you think you could narrow the options by ringing it in with the weights and then making small adjustments in configuration from there?

Kathy
03-10-2008, 05:54 PM
Friend Mike:

My friend, thank you for giving of your time to run these tests......

You are like me, and Roger, and all of us, we want to know..........you have no axe to grind.......if this new idea is not sound, you will discover it...if it is sound, you will discover that too...

If the world don't end, I should have SPEC rifle #4 ready to do the initial tests latter part of the week......it will also have one of Roger's Muzzle Devices on it.......

Mike, I don't mean to place any pressure on you my friend, but, a bunch of folks are awaiting the outcome of your tests....me too....

Do I hope this thing works, oh yes....does Roger hope it works, are you kidding?.......but if it don't work, it don't work.....if it does, it does...and, no one do I trust more to evaluate it, than you......

Michael......you always close with this statement: "Man, I love this game."

Well bud, the light is on you......don't mean to apply pressure at all....but, whether you desired it or not, we await you........good or bad.

Your friend, Bill Calfee

Pepper1079
03-10-2008, 08:03 PM
Hi Mike, What is the weight of the bare tuner and is it also adjustable?
Jim

RvA
03-10-2008, 09:20 PM
Pepper,

The base device is 5oz and no it's not adjustable.

Best,

Roger

Cabin Mike
03-11-2008, 07:28 AM
Don, actually Bill used his process for measuring the down force exerted on my barrel by the adjustable tuner that I have been using for the last several years. This tuner has been set at the same spot since it was determined to be the best setting. He then determined the weight sequence on the Muzzle Device that provided the closest match to the adjustables down force. That was my starting point.

In my limited testing most of it was done around this weight sequence, changing it in small increments. I have a couple of sequences that I want to test in better conditions as well as try new sequences farther from this beginning setting.

Roger, I'm hoping for better weather this weekend. I know the snow will be gone, I think only the piles are left now. I just hope that we don't have a front blow through causing poor wind conditions. I really want to have conditions that will provide meaningful testing of your device. I know you and Bill have put a lot of work into this device and I want to test it to the best of my ability. It is a fine piece of workmanship.

I noticed you shot well at Bill Meyer's place last weekend. Congratulations on your shooting. I'm guessing you were using one of your new Muzzle Devices, correct?

Mike Sherrill

Douglas
03-11-2008, 08:11 AM
I have been following this from the start and have a couple sets of Roger's weights for the adjustable muzzle devices (haven't tried them out yet due to crappy conditions). But the thought just occurred to me, what are we trying to accomplish using Roger's new non-adjustable device? Is it because we want to save weight, eliminate consequences of moving parts, reduce initial cost. There's very little doubt in my mind that this is going to work, but is a non-adjustable going to be better than an adjustable with the addition of Roger's weights, or is it a wash or what? I know over on the centerfire side those guys want the devices locked up tight, but is this much of an issue with rimfire? Thanks, Douglas

RvA
03-11-2008, 09:49 AM
Mike,

I hope you get better weather too. hard to do anything when all the tails are going in circles. No I left that baby home this weekend and I shot my Hoehn with the weight kit. I new that was on the right spot, the new one I haven't had time to do a full test on just yet. Just a real quick one to make sure it was going to do somehing other just look pretty, well maybe a little more the just that but not much. (I've been real busy make weight kits) So I'm hoping to do some real testing this weekend with the new device.

Douglas,

The whole thought behind this device is twofold,

1) To get rid of the moving parts and the vibrations that go with them
2) To start with a lighter base. (I've heard tell of rifles needing a lighter device then is currently out there)

And this is based on what I believe to be a fact. Once you find the right weight for a rimfire you don't need to adjust the tuner again.

I locked my Hoehn at 250 with a short piece of alum welding rod cut to fit between the setscrew and the ball and that helped. So I do know a locked device will work, now we just have to shake out this new one and see what it can do. I really believe this will evolve into a very good device.

Best,

Roger

Hardhead Dave
03-11-2008, 10:58 AM
Hi,
Last year I screwed the adjusting sleeve tight against the end of the threads of Marci's tuner and made the set screw so it would lock the sleeve tight also. Then I started tuning with the available weights on Marci's rifle. It worked best with the lightest aluminum weight. It worked great thereafter.

I used Roger's weight set a few days ago and found by just adding the aluminum adaptor as the only weight. It tightened the groups more and they were very round 5 shot groups. Adding the half ounce weight opened the group size. This should be at .100 at fifty yards. The tests were at 35 yards and shot .060s.

Just for curiosity, with this setting, I just picked a bullet from each of three different lots at random and they all just made 1 tiny hole. At .025 at 35 yards.

I took some time to work with my Anny using a prototype of Roger's new fixed design. By starting with the basic unit on the barrel and adding weight incrementally, it was obvious on the target that the groups started large then got smaller and proceeded to open up again.

I did not have much spread of velocities to work with. I would shoot 2 of one lot and two of another lot about 25 fps different, and got the preceeding results.

Just for grins I shot several groups in the Anny with year old Lapua and Eley. I alternated shots between each and saw the groups get smaller and then larger as noted above. I felt the lube difference would be minimized by alternating each shot.

This was done at the 35 yard indoor area that was available to test with. Outdoor testing will follow.

I was convinced last season that the moveable sleeves on the available tuners was causing inconsistant results. That was why I made all of our tuners lock up positive.

Dave

Cabin Mike
03-24-2008, 12:52 PM
To All,
I have been testing Rogers’s Muzzle Device for the last 3 weeks, during conditions that allow meaningful test results to be obtained. After testing 3 days in 6 different conditions (am, pm, & under lights) I found a setting using his solid muzzle device, that duplicated the results experienced with my old adjustable type tuner.

This past weekend I tested a new addition to his muzzle device over 2 days both am & pm. It is a spool that uses the concept of using distance as leverage to create the down force instead of using all weight to do so (see attached picture). The initial testing of this spool looks very promising.

I look forward to my continued testing of this muzzle device. I have a couple more things I want to test before my final thoughts are formulated. Roger has certainly put a lot of time and effort into machining this Muzzle Device and it shows in the quality and workmanship. We are all fortunate that Roger & Bill have teamed up on this project.

Mike Sherrill

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/03-23-08_Tuner_Spool_3.JPG

Muzzle Device with Spool

Bill Myers
03-24-2008, 02:02 PM
A few questions,I think that it is good that you are doing the testing & i hope that it works out ok,But my questions are,Bill Has already stated that once the correct weight is added to the barrel ,it will be dead & no more adjustments will be necessary,How do you all know this if you are now testing this threory to in fact ,see if it will work,It is going to take all year,winter through late fall to see in fact if the rifle will stay in tune,a few sessions will only get the rifle in tune,What will it do when its 90 degrees outside& there is a lot of moisture in the air.The real test will be ,when you jump in your car & drive 1000 miles to shoot & the conditions are no where near what you have at your home range.Roger is a very good friend of mine & i hope that he can get to work, BILL

RvA
03-24-2008, 02:33 PM
Bill I couldn't agree with you more.

More testing is definitely required before I will ever call this device a workable solution. But you have to start somewhere, and between what Mike and myself have seen so far it looks good. This is also why I asked Mike to leave the details out. I don't want to mislead anyone on what where doing one way or the other. And I'll tell you this Mike's testing data is good. It show the good, the bad and the ugly. Which is what I wanted to see.

Once we get the design where it's not changing quite so quickly I will find a few more testers around the country and ask them to try it out and see what they come back with. As much as I want this device to work I'm not going to just whip it together and say "here tis guys, now see if it works." No, I don't work that way . I want this puppy bullet proof going out the door the first time!

Best,

Roger

tim
03-24-2008, 02:44 PM
Might I ask a question please? I apologise if somehow I missed this in an earlier post. In everything I have ever read as well as everything in my own testing I have come to believe that when you get close to you tune using a "standard" type adjustable tuner, 1 or 2 clicks will make a difference in finalizing your setup. By using even alloy weights, is it not quite possible that by virture of their weight, that we either overshoot or undershoot an ideal tune because the "value" of a single weight seems considerably more than 1 or 2 clicks.

RvA
03-24-2008, 03:35 PM
Tim,

These are just my observations and what I have heard from other shoots too, so please do keep that in mind.

From what I have seen over the past few years is that once you find the right weight for your rifle it's a done deal. I have changed my rifle between two stocks, one a Meredith and the other an Edge and two bedding method one a screwed the other a glue-in and I have never changed my tuner setting or weight. Oh, I have tried others but I keep coming back to the same setting and weight time and time again.

And, not to dispute what you say about one click in either direction making a difference Tim, but I have never been able to prove that to myself. (and i have tried belive me) I have been going between 225 and 250 with 3 1/2oz of weight for the past year on my Hoehn Tuner, as those two spots showed the best results. Everything on either side of those two numbers +- 10 or so clicks works ok too.

Now do we need more testing of this device, most definitely! I have to be able to prove that it's going to hold over different conditions, temperatures and everything else to boot. The last thing I want is for anyone to have to mess with this device once you find the right weight.

More to come on this one for sure!

Best,
Roger

steve b.
03-24-2008, 05:31 PM
I'm not sure if I understand something: how do external conditions, such as temp, altitiude, ect. influence the vibrations of a barrel, and - if so, are they large enough to induce a change on a target, or more seen in a calculation on a computer?

I have wondered this, and thought that a barrel in tune stays there.

Would a tuning fork change it's pitch when moved about the country?

?

s.

DonMatzeder
03-24-2008, 05:51 PM
I think there are several stages of tune. If you tune to the 90* point on the sine wave, the barrel is stopped while it changes directions. This is a velocity dependent tune and changes with weather. If you tune to the 180* point of the sine, the barrel remains stationary and that tune is not velocity or weather dependent. So my theory goes anyway. I'm not sure anyone has the true answer to why it works at all.

Bill Wynne
03-24-2008, 09:42 PM
Tuning is somewhere between physics and superstition. I am leaning toward physics.

Just in case, I may hang a chicken feather off my new barrel that Bill Myers recently installed for me anyway. :)

Concho Bill

Joe Friedrich
03-25-2008, 12:45 AM
Roger, like the spool. Is that different length sections between the main body and end of the spool?

Good luck with the testing, it's different to say the least.

Joe

RvA
03-25-2008, 10:53 AM
Steve, I've been thinking about this and I don't think the environmental changes will affect the barrel to the extent we have to worry about it, the wax and the power…. Now that’s a whole different story.

-----

Don, you might be onto something there in your theory, which also goes along with the observation of once you find the right weight and setting you never have to change it again.

-----

Bill I hear ya, I even talked a lady in some deep swamp in the south about some chicken bones and some sort of dried lizard gizzards :eek: Back then it was Voodoo

-----

Joe, yupper, their add-on sections to get the spool out further. I thought it would be better than making 4 different spools for testing.

Cabin Mike
03-25-2008, 10:58 AM
Here is a picture of the Spool & Spoolie sections.

Mike Sherrill

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/03-20-08_Roger_s_Spool_Extension.jpg

steve
03-25-2008, 11:05 AM
I like it, Kinda looks like a blunderbus (sp?).

Joe Friedrich
03-25-2008, 11:15 AM
Thanks Mike for the picture. I will assume weight can be added to the end of the spool?

Roger, very creative, looks real nice. What's the length of the sections if you don't mine me asking?

Joe

Fred J
03-25-2008, 12:20 PM
Roger:
What is the total weight of the spool as pictured?

RvA
03-25-2008, 01:12 PM
Joe, yupper weights can be screwed right on the end of the spool section.

-----

Fred, the spool and the 3 extensions weight 3 1/2 oz

chisqr
03-25-2008, 02:43 PM
I'm not sure if I understand something: how do external conditions, such as temp, altitiude, ect. influence the vibrations of a barrel, and - if so, are they large enough to induce a change on a target, or more seen in a calculation on a computer?

I have wondered this, and thought that a barrel in tune stays there.

Would a tuning fork change it's pitch when moved about the country?

?

s.

A tuning fork will definitely change it's pitch when temperature, air pressure, and humidity change. All these things affect the speed of sound in air with is connected to the oscillation frequency (pitch). But only the temperature is going to have much of an effect on the phyiscal oscillation frequency of the tuning fork itself. That's the critical part related to barrel vibration.

Because of this, the frequencies of tuning forks used in laboratories are specified at a particular temperature.

For any physical system, natural vibration frequencies are dominated by the length and the mass of what is vibrating. Temperature affects the length and also the speed of sound in the metal.

Barrels are a lot more complicated though because the effective vibration length is affected by points of contact or attachment with the rest of the rifle. It is conceivable that to the extent things like humidity affect, say the stock, it could have an influence on the vibration of the barrel.

How much of a change these things might produce at the target is a much more difficult question that is probably best answered by testing. But they can have an effect in principle.

Temperature is probably the dominate weather factor, and it's effect on the length of a barrel is pretty easy to calculate. Even so, the change in length is pretty small.

RvA
03-25-2008, 03:19 PM
chisqr,

I was thinking about that when I made my reply to Steve, but I don't think the overall length change in the barrel would be great enough to effect the tuning. I mean in the range where shooting these rifles, let take an extreme -20 to 110 how much will the barrel really change? A couple of tents at best? I'll have to dig out the books and do the math to be sure but it can't be much. I think the temperature effect on the ammo will be a much larger factor to deal with.

Best,

Roger

Vibe
03-25-2008, 04:23 PM
chisqr,

I was thinking about that when I made my reply to Steve, but I don't think the overall length change in the barrel would be great enough to effect the tuning. I mean in the range where shooting these rifles, let take an extreme -20 to 110 how much will the barrel really change? A couple of tents at best? I'll have to dig out the books and do the math to be sure but it can't be much. I think the temperature effect on the ammo will be a much larger factor to deal with.

Best,

Roger
Thermal expansion of steel is 0.00000645in/in/°F
So a 20" barrel will be 0.005" shorter at 40°F than it will be at 90°F - which is about 1/6 of a tuner (of "current" design) revolution using 32TPI. I believe that smaller adjustments have proven to have significant effects.
-20°F to 110°F is a 130°F change, or a 0.017" change in a 20" barrels length. 0.020" with a 24" barrel.

steve b.
03-25-2008, 04:32 PM
ok, that makes sense..

so, let's say i have a 10.5lb gun built by meyers, and it is shootin good at his shop during the mid winter season, with temps in the 40's and below. he ships it off and now we're shooting it in vegas during the summer when it's 115 degrees. i'm assuming that the rifle needs to be retuned due to the change in temp?

meyers has built some nice rifles for a few of the guys down here, especially a wicked little sporter, and i wonder how to: 1 - identify the changes, and 2 - how to manage them, especially with a sporter.

anyhow, thanks for answering the first questions.!

s.

chisqr
03-25-2008, 04:42 PM
I should have been more clear. I would have guessed that the practical effect of thermal expansion would be insignificant. I was just trying to give a direct answer to Steve b.

Vibe beat me to it, but I did what I thought was a worst case and assumed RvA's temp range, 316 stainless (which has a big coefficient for steel), and a 30 inch barrel.

The expansion coef. is 0.0000173 / deg C. This give a change in length of 0.037 inch.

With more reasonable temp. extremes, the proper alloy of steel, and barrel length it would be less.

In any case I would have thought RvA was right about the effect on the ammo being the biggest factor.

RvA
03-26-2008, 11:54 AM
OK guys, it's been about 15 years since I did these calculation so bear with me.

From the info I can find Barrel steel (416) has a CoE of 5.5 and Alum 25.

So if we take a normal 26" Barrel and go through the extremes of -20f to 110f we end up with a growth of 0.0103" for the barrel. Now lets not forget our little deivce on the end of this tube is going to change too. So if our aluminum device has a free length from the muzzle of 3" it will grow .0054" so we will in effect have a change of 0.0049" to deal with. That would be 5 clicks on a Hoehn tuner.

From experiences that’s not enough change to worry about.

Best,

Roger

Vibe
03-26-2008, 12:36 PM
From the info I can find Barrel steel (416) has a CoE of 5.5 and Alum 25.

Check


So if we take a normal 26" Barrel and go through the extremes of -20f to 110f we end up with a growth of 0.0103" for the barrel.
I got 0.01859" for that set of conditions and extremes. That's a significant difference.


Now lets not forget our little device on the end of this tube is going to change too. So if our aluminum device has a free length from the muzzle of 3" it will grow .0054"
Again I came up with a different result of 0.0975" for the alum.


so we will in effect have a change of 0.0049" to deal with. That would be 5 clicks on a Hoehn tuner. I'm really confused as to how you got a smaller number here than either of the other components. Added together we would have 0.02634" Or as you put it in terms of clicks @1 per 0.001" 26 clicks.


From experiences that’s not enough change to worry about.

Best,

Roger
I had heard several people say that 5 click would take them from in tune to out, 25 would take them in,out,and back to somewhere else, possibly in or out.

RvA
03-26-2008, 03:27 PM
Vibe,

I subtracted the tuner growth from the barrel growth to come up with that smaller number, why because, the tuner is beyond the muzzle and as the barrel grows the node is going to move along right with it. And being the tuner is beyond the muzzle it's effect will be even more pronounce then when the tuner is in its cold state from the increase in its cantilever effect on the barrel.

Now could I be full of hot air.... could be. But it worked in my mind’s eye. I mean we could really get nuts with this theory Vibe, but what really matters is when the bullet hits the paper. That’s the real deal, and from what I've seen so far from the testing Mike and I have been doing I'm on the right track with this design. Would it be nice to have the “Why” it’s working sure, but I know I don’t have the equipment or the cash flow to even begin to measure what’s really going on here. So I take the results I see at the target and go from there. What else can we really do?

Best,

Roger

Vibe
03-26-2008, 03:36 PM
as the barrel grows the node is going to move along right with it.
You could be right in that. But at this point I'm not quite ready to take it as a "Given".


And being the tuner is beyond the muzzle it's effect will be even more pronounce then when the tuner is in its cold state from the increase in its cantilever effect on the barrel.
This, on the other hand, I will take as a "Given" could be good or bad. We'll have to see what extended testing in those conditions reveals.


from what I've seen so far from the testing Mike and I have been doing I'm on the right track with this design.
I fully agree and am rather excited to see how it plays out.

So I take the results I see at the target and go from there. What else can we really do?

Best,

Roger
Keep up the good work :D

Cabin Mike
03-31-2008, 11:40 AM
To All, I was able to continue my testing of Roger's Muzzle Device this past weekend. I started out with my last weight sequence combination of spooly, spooly, spool, & 1/2 oz aluminum cap (see picture below). I was able to re-produce the same results & accuracy that I experienced the previous testing session. This makes me feel like we are on the right track since we are getting repeatability on different days with similar conditions.

I feel that each testing session is giving valuable information and have a few more ideas to try, hoping to find the very best combination possible. I have found something that seems to be enhancing the results in a positive manner and will be pursuing it in my next testing session. I have discussed all of my findings to date with Roger & Bill and we all feel that it is best to wait until we have had a chance to prove some of our past findings as well as our future results before posting the final results. Roger wants to be able to offer this Muzzle Device in a final version when he releases it.

Mike Sherrill

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/03-23-08_Tuner_Spool_3.JPG

Spooly, Spooly, Spool, & 1/2 oz aluminum cap weight

Gene Corvin
11-16-2010, 09:01 AM
Well I'd say James turned down tuner will work the same way, over on another site I saw pictures of you Timing Method , when the rifle ended up in Time you had an extra 11oz. of weight on a Harrel tuner, so it looks like you've turned a full 360 degrees in about a year, so when someone else changes a little something don't be so hard on them.
>
FA
Foster,
You know when a man has been tuning on his rifles for over a year and still has not finished it's no wonder he can't believe that it can be done in fifteen minutes!

tonykharper
11-16-2010, 10:08 AM
Gene, Foster, you fellas are down south and will see shoots before us up north. after they take the targets down look at the fouling shots, one shot goes awry and then settles down??? the rifles tuned and probably has a von ahrens tuner. if the fouling shots string all over the place this is real simple the tuner cannot adjust for varying velocities. it's not rocket science just common sense............

Talking about commmon sense ------ why does the first shot out of your perfectly clean barrel go awry?

jGEE
11-16-2010, 11:15 AM
Condensation can start forming inside the bbl in just 2 or 3 min. The first shot could be the bbl has been sitting for days or even just 30 min. A dry path then start shooting?....... I think the weather you shoot in has a lot to do with how fast moisture form in your bbls... More humidity the quicker you get a "wet" bbl .... yep i know i am a rookie and Tony shoots matches.. joe

jGEE
11-16-2010, 01:22 PM
Martin , you must have slipped that RVA tuner advice by unnoticed last year,and the second and third best opton advice too.
I'm sure the RVA will work just like the turned down Harrel,or the 8oz.Harrel or the 8oz.with a noodle,or all of them with one or two mid-barrel
tuners added. they're to many different combinations out there on WINNING for everyone to be wrong.
your way this year? my work for you and a few others, but it's not the ONLY WAY and it looks to me that's what you're trying to say in all these posts, if it's not your way it's wrong?
I'm going to let you in on a little secret just between you and me, about 90% of this rimfire game is about the best AMMO you can get and it always will be. tune all you want if you don't get GOOD ammo your just spinning your wheels. now keep that to yourself if you tell anyone I'll deny it!
>
FA

Not to spoil anything and i sure don't remember who said it but ammo is 90% rimfire -maybe more.

A lot of people shoot rimfire because they can afford it........ cheap ammo. The good ammo has gotten out of reach for me and a lot of others......

The tuning myth: Maybe it is true, maybe not.... Maybe ever one has it right, maybe everyone has it wrong. There have been a lot of great shooters come before me - i mean a lot better than i ever will be.

I shoot SK standard plus 95% of the time- economic reasons. What if there is some "magic tune" that will make 30feet per sec ammo shoot? PROBABLY NOT BUT WHAT IF.......... joe

Slick Willy
11-16-2010, 03:04 PM
Foster,this year Charlie Scott shot 2500 and a 2450 back to back after two guys from OK gave him two boxes of Team 2115,they knew it was Killer and it almost cost them,that`s just one of many tales of " It is the Ammo Marty"! They wanted to prove a point and did. I think Charlie`s rifle was tuned!