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View Full Version : Reade Range 1000yd BR League Rule Changes for 2008



John Hoover
02-23-2008, 07:11 PM
After a lot of thought, we decided to change the light gun rules beginning 2008. The weight limit for light guns is now 17 lbs. That is basically the only restriction. The are still restrictions regarding the rests & sandbags. Our rules can be viewed at www.readerange.org. Click on the bulletins tab.

Also new for 2008 - We're also going to introduce a factory class. These rules can also be viewed in the Reade Range website.

4Mesh
02-24-2008, 12:55 AM
LMFAO!

You mean to tell me the folks who just got done boycott'ing the World Open because there were 17lb guns allowed to shoot there, are now changing thier mind!

Yer too funny... Ya know, those guns with the extra weight are gonna kick yer ass don'tcha. :D:D

I bet'cha Darryl's just beside himself!

DDCC
02-24-2008, 09:22 AM
Sorry to disappoint you here Phil but Darryl thought it was a very good idea indeed to take the "limitations" (especially barrel diameters) off the 16 1/2 # class. With a newly formed 1000 yard range the change in rules should be very interesting to new shooters in that area of Pennsylvania and elsewhere.
With the addition of a factory class this year, it was a no brainer to remove the rules from the 16 1/2 lb class so any factory guns could shoot in the light gun class too. Last season at Reede, we had several new shooters with guns that were over the 16 1/2 lb limit and barrel muzzle diameter limits.
The barrel diameter was the problem with the factory class guns entering into the Light gun class. Savage has two or three models that weigh around 13# with a 1" muzzle diameter and it was either limit the weight of the factory guns to 11# or allow any "factory" gun to shoot in the factory class.
Now if someone wants to shoot two classes by using their Savage or other factory gun in the light gun class the door is wide open. No more muzzle diameter restrictions on the light guns at Reede. A very good idea. We're still shooting ten shots not five and the weight limit is now 17#. Way to go John and Dianne for the change, I'm all for it.

As for a boycott of the WO, not true from my standpoint. Shooting at Reede last season and building a new garage and many other projects here, I was simply to busy to come to the event.

With the amount of shooting at Reede planned this season, the mileage being 65 (to Reede) as compared to 110 to Williamsaport, Carol and I will be very busy again this year too.

With names such as the Hoovers, Conzos, Murtiffs, Murtaugh and others, the Reede range certainly has the compitition.

Later
Darryl

oneflyer
02-24-2008, 09:24 AM
After reading the bulletin. There are no restictions on barrel diameter, etc. Smacks of IBS rules to me. Do I see 5 shots for record next?

oneflyer
02-24-2008, 09:29 AM
Daryll- Smacks of hypocrisy to me.

DDCC
02-24-2008, 09:48 AM
Frank
I doubt very much if John and Dianne have any thoughts of "ever" changing the ten shot string to five as the to IBS have in their light gun rules.

As for your second comment---Lets just say for the good and welfare of a new range establishment, there's an advantage to opening up the light gun rules which I explained in my first post. Please read it again.

The old saying must be true, "you can teach old dogs new tricks" after all.:)

Did you ever think that maybe, just maybe, I'm mellowing in my old age:) to be "for" the change?

Later
Darryl

oneflyer
02-24-2008, 10:30 AM
Yes just maybe age has something to do with it.

DDCC
02-24-2008, 10:43 AM
Yep, age has a lot to do with it plus the amount of years in the 1000 yard shooting game.
No hypocrisy on my part what so ever. I honestly welcome the change of rules at Reade and commend John and Dianne for it.

Later
Darryl:)

Fireball Fred
02-24-2008, 10:58 AM
John, Darryll, and whomever else it may concern,
Bravo!! to have the foresight to change rules so new shooters can enter the sport, wow now that is change for the good of the sport!!
just look at the groundhog shoots that bring competitors in by the truckload. also the insight to keep the 10 shot rule that will keep competition alive. just one look at IBS records and one can quickly see that 10 shots make shooters deal with wind and heat more. that is what keeps the playing field even, meaning that once newbees learn to read wind conditions they have as good of a chance as the fellow with a fat wallet and his own machine shop to win a relay. again Kudo's and best of luck to the new range, sincerely :)
Greg Moyer

John Hoover
02-24-2008, 11:51 AM
After reading the posts regarding our decision to change the rules, Dianne, Tom Murtiff and I decided to respond. First of all, one of the main reasons for the change is that we've been approached by several individuals who have purchased the new Savage rifle. Under our "old" 16 1/2 lb. rules this gun would have been illegal. It was our goal to come up with rules so we don't have to turn any shooters away. We've also had interest from shooters who attend groundhog matches. This new rule will allow them to compete at 1000 yards.

Tom, Dianne and I have attended matches at different 1000 yard clubs over the years and will continue to do so, but when the opportunity presented itself for us to start a club 18 miles from home, we jumped at the opportunity. The range is a great place to shoot! Last year we shot only 8 matches but the winning 6 match group was 7.7615". The winning 6 match score aggregate was 94. Our small group of the year was 4.798" and our high score was 99.

The bottom line is we like to shoot and hope this change will get more people to the range to compete. They can shoot the rifles they have and not have to worry about a lot of rules, only make the 17lb. weight restriction.

Hope to see you at Reade Range in 2008!

John Hoover
Dianne Hoover
Tom Murtiff

Yukon Kid
02-24-2008, 02:58 PM
I'd have to pass Williamsport to visit you guys but if the "bug" ever gets me I would love to try out your range. It is a great pleasure to shoot on your relays at Williamsport so please try to attend a few this year. Your friend, The Yukon Kid a.k.a. Peter Flisock

Joe Salt
02-24-2008, 06:30 PM
I am so gratified to see that those who, in the past, were so much against change have finally seen the light. I have worked toward getting all 1000 yard shooters on the same page for so long and have had to face strong objections, a lot of the objections coming from John and Dianne Hoover, Tom Murtiff and Darryl Cassel. Most recently those objections surfaced when our Original Pa 1000 yard club changed light gun rules to allow the use of stock tape. Oh, what a rackus that was. And what a ruckus was brewed when we allowed 17 lb. light guns to shoot at the World Open. Screams of how unfair that would be are still ringing in my ears. But to see that they have now come around to my point of view puts a huge grin on my face. I will be approaching the Original Pa. 1000 yard club members with this, to have light guns weigh 17 lbs. and to take away those restrictions I have always thought were so stupid. I just never thought my biggest supporters would be John, Dianne, Tom and Darryl. Just goes to show you, when you're right, you're right.

DDCC
02-24-2008, 09:30 PM
Joe.

Have to clear a few items up for you here.

A history lesson is called for too. In the infancy or beginning of the 16 1/2 lb class at Williamsport, Bruce Bear (President at the time) along with Steve Warner made the muzzle diameter rules (.950") and the stock width of three inch rule, the weight rules (16 1/2Lb) along with most "all" of the other rules we used in the beginning and right up to 2005. Very little changed from those early years execpt we eleminated the 11 # class.

True----Some of us have been against change because all our records were fired using the rules that Bruce came up with at the time. For you to say they were "stupid" is a slap in the face to Bruce and Steve.

Opening up the light guns and bringing a factory class to Reade range this year was a welcomed and needed change. As they explained, John and Dianne did it to allow the factory guns with 1" muzzle diameters to be able to shoot in the light gun class which was a good idea. Without light gun rule changes some of the factory guns being manufactured "now" would not be able to shoot in the light gun class if it was left with muzzle diameter resrictions. May as well open it up and just weigh the guns in the LG class. That was another good idea.

As far as getting "all" 1000 yard shooting on the same page, I doubt that will ever happen. Even if all 1000 yard clubs had a 17# limit, some organizations would want to hold on to their 10 shot for record while others want to keep it at 5 shots and maintain their records. Some allow mechanical rests in the butt stock in their light gun class while others hold to the sandbag rules in the rear of the stock.

As far as John, Dianne, Tom and myself supporting you----My comment to that is----Please don't think we are supporting you Joe, it sounds as if you are "supporting us" and the Reade range by saying you are "now" going to approach the members at Williamsport for a major rule change like John and Dianne have already done for the members at Reade.
The change was neccessary for growth at the Reade range and that's why the rules were changed. You had "nothing" to do with the change what so ever.

John and Dianne are doing whats best for the Reade range and it's future. It was a move to bring in new shooters and that's the bottom line. No more, no less. When your right your right (you said) doesn't apply here at all Joe.

I must say, this is going to be a new concept to get used to ----Shoot whatever you want in the light gun class as long as it's not over 17# and not over 40 cal.
The rules committee won't be to busy now.

Hope that cleared some things up.

Later
Darryl

h-bar
02-25-2008, 05:56 AM
Hey Darryl some day before you die maybe you will be able to see past yourself!!! You seem to only want things that are all self serving to you!!! What is funny here is you guys all say well the rule changes are to get more people to shoot. Well that is what Joe tried to do at Williamsport. Darryl age has not changed you you are the same egocentric guy you always were!!!!!!


Joe Salt- Looks like the 17 lb thing is looking up!!!! The flip flops have flipped so you should have very little resistance!!!

Joe Salt
02-25-2008, 08:05 AM
Anyone who knows what's going on knows that Bruce Baer is well aware of going to 17 lbs. and no other restrictions on light guns. He put up a petition last year asking to do that very thing. Bruce Baer and Steve Warner made the original rules for light guns thinking they were the best rules for the times. But Bruce knows times change and sometimes rules need to be changed too. The only person who wants to portray what I said to be a slap in the face to Bruce and Steve is Darryl Cassel. I respect Bruce and Steve and they know it. I haven't been the only one who has spent the last few years working toward getting 1000 yard shooters together, there are people in the IBS who want the same thing and they have found a board of directors at Pa. who want to work with them (finally!). I have been told that there are agenda items at the IBS to change their 5 shot record to a 10 shot record. That will make us closer still and I have hopes that the day will come when we all have the same rules and have the same intentions of getting all 10 shots in one hole. I know thinking of yourself as my supporter must gall you, Darryl. But those are the facts, you're supporting an idea that I have been pushing for quite some time, so a supporter you are and I'll take help where I can get it, even from you. :cool:

oneflyer
02-25-2008, 09:23 AM
Now let's get on with it!! I have always felt that one set of rules across the country was the best way to go. I always felt that we had the rules pretty well established- if you built a gun to Williamsport classification then you could shoot anywhere in the country. I will however change that stance to whatever my club wants to do, if we accomodate more shooters by tweeking the rules then lets get on with it!!!!!!!!!!! I dare say that if the rules were changed in Williamsport it would have a dramatic impact on every club across the country. Lets not be the anchor on this boat, lets be the engine.

DDCC
02-25-2008, 10:05 AM
Now let's get on with it!! I have always felt that one set of rules across the country was the best way to go. I always felt that we had the rules pretty well established- if you built a gun to Williamsport classification then you could shoot anywhere in the country. I will however change that stance to whatever my club wants to do, if we accomodate more shooters by tweeking the rules then lets get on with it!!!!!!!!!!! I dare say that if the rules were changed in Williamsport it would have a dramatic impact on every club across the country. Lets not be the anchor on this boat, lets be the engine.


That is an excellent statement Frank and if 10 shots is being discussed then that would be for the betterment of the sport. The course of fire would be a point of contention though. I'm refering to the NBRSA.

H-Bar
As for your statements , I am not pushing for anything that benifits me at all and never have. Please explain what has ever been self serving or ever benifited me in any way at Williamsport or Reade? I'm not that good of a shooter anyway so really nothing could ever benifit me. I do like a level playing field for everyone though and that's where the rule structure came in. I am for the change that John and Dianne have made at Reade range because I think it will bring in new shooters especially with a "factory class" added this year. Again, this does not benifit me at all. Not sure if I'll shot the factory class but, maybe just to add numbers of shooters. Over the years at Williamsport, I was for the rule structure of the guns and being on the rules committee tried to make sure the guns met all of the criteria set forth.
I won't build a new gun for a wide open 17# class. I will continue to shoot my old Williamsport legal 16 1/2# rifle at Reade.
Quite possibly, you might understand the operations and future of the Williamport range better had you ever been a Board member which I don't think you are/were.


Joe

Regardless of what you say, I don't think "anyone" from the Reade organization was supporting you when and for the reason the change was made. It was done "only" because of a factory class being added this year and I think John and Dianne wanted to make sure that the new factory class guns with a 1" diameter muzzle could be shot in the light gun class. Hence, the rule change to bring in new shooters who want more shooting and could enter their factory rifle in the light gun class. It was a very good idea from the Hoovers. You said last year Bruce passed a pitition around to open up the light gun class to 17# with no restrictions. How many signed it?
As per your last statement in your post, you have my permission to take "me" off your support list. My support is for John and Dianne and the Reade range and will stay that way. "They" have certainly taken the lead in implementing the new rule change decision.

Later
Darryl

Yukon Kid
02-25-2008, 11:48 AM
16 1/2lb is 16.5 lb. and I hope it stays that WAY !!!! Change for change sake is BULL, NOT when all the records are at 16.5 lb. I am in favor of the Super Shoot allowing the 17 lb limit, BUT that was IT !!! This is NO personally tiff, or popularity contest, this is the foundation the club established at the berginning and upon that "rock" we built the game !!!! OUR guns are unique just as the wind is Unique at Williamsport !!!! Peter Flisock a.k.a. The Yukon Kid

6.5fan
02-25-2008, 04:08 PM
I am glad to see the reade range change to 17lbs.the other 1/2 pound dosn't mean anything.we proved that years ago at the nationals and in the world open in the heavy gun class.I like to see 17lbs I'm all for it:D:D:eek:

Patt Capehart
02-27-2008, 10:36 PM
Just to add our two cents worth...the Northwest 1000 Yard Clubs Secretary's Secretary has had great relations with Darryl, John, Diane, Joe and Phil Bower. I couldn't have done it without all the help from all of you.
We have allowed 17 lb. guns at our Championship Shoot for 2 years, an all seems to be going fine. If PA. wants 17 lb.ers, let'er rip....we just want to shoot and follow all the rules. Best wishes to John, Diane and Darryl for great success, and to Joe Salt and all the PA club members for continued great shooting. Let us know how to go Joe and we are ready for it!!! As for fuzzy faced Bruce Baer, get on back here this year and lets have some great times and steaks!
You guys are all top notch in my book, and our club members feel the same!! Sure would like to see Bill and Diane Shehane also, and any of you guys from PA or Reade Range for our Championship Shoot. It's a doozy!!!
Best to you all, Pat Capehart

DDCC
02-28-2008, 10:08 AM
Hello Pat and Duane

Thank you for the very nice response to all concerned.

When is your Championship match this year? Carol and I had a great time at your very first match and you certainly have progressed since that time. I must say you folks catch on fast. It "must" be in the Montana water;).

Is there still camping allowed at your range during the championship match?

I wish for continued good luck and growth in your organization. You folks have always been top notch in Carol's and my book also.

As always
Darryl

Patt Capehart
02-28-2008, 05:54 PM
Hi Darryl...the Championship Match is August 8, 9 and 10, with August 8th being pratice date. Steak fry on Saturday night, lunch served on Saturday whenever we can fit it in. Lots of great prizes for shooters to win. There is camping with electric and water fill as you drive in. Hope to see you and Carol there and anyone from Pennsylvania Club or Reade Club would be most welcome.

Plugger
02-28-2008, 07:44 PM
Come over to the dark side John, and join the IBS. We'll be gentle with you.

Natty Bumpo
02-29-2008, 07:26 AM
Me thinks the IBS/Jedi mind trick wont work on anyone who's shot at Williamsport ---even if long ago and far away.... especially Masters John and Diane....your only hope --if there's a chance go for young Adam (though the Williamsport Force may still be strong within him)....beware : Princess Marissa's destiny is to come to his rescue...
this gets just better and better---I can't wait for the next episode....

John Hoover
02-29-2008, 04:28 PM
Over the year's we've (the Hoover's) really enjoyed shooting at both Williamsport and IBS ranges. However, according to the by-laws of the Western Pa Cal. 30 League, we are not able to affiliate with either of those clubs. The only reason we've decided to go to our 17lb rules is because of adding the factory class and the new Savage rifle. We didn't want to be a club that is continually changing our rules and since this is the first year we'll be shooting 10 matches, we decided to make our rules as simple as possible. Personally, we will still be shooting 16 1/2 lb. rifles regardless of where we shoot.

We've had some posts and personal emails from individuals who use their screen names. It would be great to know "who" we're talking to and would appreciate people adding their names to their responses.

Once again, we want to stress that we as a club are just getting started. We're where Willliamsport was 30 years ago. We wish all clubs success for 2008.

John & Dianne Hoover

4Mesh
03-01-2008, 12:08 AM
John,

Come on now, that’s not the “only” reason for this. Be honest, you loathe the idea of this and everyone knows it. You didn’t use the 05 PA rules for nothing. You were willing to boycott shooting over a hunk of tape and yes Darryl, that’s a lie about you not boycotting, just look at the 06 results. Were you working on your garage while the heavy guns shot but not the light guns? And, I’m sure Darryl contemplated suicide rather than endure spending the rest of his life not having enough reasons to disqualify someone, manufactured or otherwise. I’m sure he’ll find solace that he can still go to the line between the siters and records and lift their gun out of the bags to disturb it, (checking the bags for legality of course) and cheat them that way. People from all over are well aware of what to expect when ole' DC's around.

Even for Darryl, these are some hefty half-truths at best. And I say that after years of practice at attempting to find some truth, in spite of what he writes. Certainly you can’t be surprised that people reading this stuff are saying the things they are. I mean, I can remember getting a letter in the mail from you asking for the current PA club board to UN-DO that which was done while your wife and Darryl were on the board, and need I say, were a large part of its decisions. Somehow I guess “now” those things became a bad thing for the club, which I’m sure still enjoys your deepest concern about it’s future.


Please explain what has ever been self serving or ever benifited me in any way at Williamsport or Reade?I’m not sure you’d want to go there with me…


Quite possibly, you might understand the operations and future of the Williamport range better had you ever been a Board member which I don't think you are/were. Understanding the future is not so hard. Understanding the past is what makes some scratch their head.


As for a boycott of the WO, not true from my standpoint. Showed to be an outright lie I believe. Nice try Darryl. Hey, don’t feel offended, nobody is surprised.


Yep, age has a lot to do with it plus the amount of years in the 1000 yard shooting game.
No hypocrisy on my part what so ever. I honestly welcome the change of rules at Reade and commend John and Dianne for it. It must have killed you to type that.

It has long been known where “your support” could be found Darryl, it certainly was never with this club. Support… That’s a very fitting term there. You can go on forever with your bs Darryl. Say whatever you want. Say what you want about Joe. You’re right, he’s not a great politician, doesn’t have practice at lying, says what he feels, even if it’s wrong, and he doesn’t have the fullest understanding of the rules under which we are governed in this club so he makes some procedural mistakes. We’ve made some mistakes in what we’ve done here but none we didn’t fix. I began with Joe on this because I gave him my word I would help him. (mine means something). I’ve taken some crap for him, he’s taken some for me, and we’ve both been called about everything under the sun at one time or another by lots better folk than you. But you know what?

After all the things I’ve ever heard anyone say about Joe, and there have been many... I have NEVER heard anyone say Joe Saltalamachia cheated them. I have NEVER heard someone say Joe was dishonest to them. Well, I can’t say the same for you Darryl.

And John, I’m Phil Bower, aka 4Mesh.

Natty Bumpo
03-01-2008, 07:16 AM
In the old days someone would challenge someone to a duel for this....
might I suggest lightguns at 1022 paces.....
but wait---with or without tuners,,what contour barrel,,,could we do attached tape,or cheeck pieces,,,16.5# or 17#,,,and will there be a separate women's division?......well?

DDCC
03-01-2008, 10:41 AM
Phil
To bad you honestly don't know just "half as much" as you "think" you do.

To address your attacking post toward John and I, let me just say that your still full of it as I remember.
As far as your comments about a lie, you are way off base and a duel is in order here. I was told long ago to not get in a pissing contest with a skunk but in this situation, guess it's a nessesary evil.

You forget one thing here-----"I" never disqualified anyone. It was a vote by the three members who were on the rules committee to do that if there was an infraction of the rules. You would be surprised how many members came to the rules committee and President about guns that were on line that they felt needed checked. As you may or may not know, the President is the head of all committees by the by-laws. The Presidents I served under "knew the rules" (your comment) quite well and the order was handed down to the rules commitee to carry out the rules formulation and what to look for. No more no less. It's a chain of command situation which maybe you don't understand yet. When my wife and Hubie (President at the time) were disqualified in the same year, I guess the rules committee did their job very well. When someone is guilty of an infraction of the rules that warrents disqualification then that person should be. When that procedure is
by-passed, then the credibility of the entire range suffers. You must have strong rule structure and abide by it.

As far as boycotting anything, your way off base again. Carol and I shot in the 2006 WO (light guns) and had a good time doing so. We missed the 2007 WO because of all the work we are doing here with a new garage in 2007. We were simply too busy to come down and I don't care what you think one way or another.
I'm 68 now and slowing down and can't seem to get things done in the same time frame I did when I was 40. We are all guilty of that as we get older. I was also recovering from a hernia operation at the time of the WO and was told by the Doctor what to lift and what not to. I had left it go too long and felt that my 67# rifle was not a good idea to be lifting and carrying to far. As a matter of fact, when the WO was going on, I was doing the wiring in the garage which didn't take alot of lifting. The money saved not going to the WO was put into electric supplies.
We will be busy here for years and to shoot at Reade plus improvements we want to do on this mountain will keep us away from the WO again. That's not boycotting at all. Just too much to do.

To say that anything ever benifited me at Williamport is a far cry from the truth. I was on the Board under Bruce Bear, Bill Hagerman and Hubie Hakes and they wanted the rules carried out and that's what I did when I was on the committee. You or nobody else can say I didn't do my job as best I could in any capcity I served while at Williamsport. It's amazing how some people "think" that one person is "making up the rules" as they go. Simply not true and it can't be true for the club credibility to survive. You must adhere to the By-laws and rules set down years ago.

I will repeat slowly so you can understand, Darryl and Carol was "for" the 17# rule change at Reade for the reasons already explained by John, Dianne and myself in this thread. It had everything to do with a new factory class to be instilled this year. To bad you just can't grasp that but it's true. It wasn't done to get close to "any" sanctioning body as it's impossible anyway as per the Reade range By-laws. It may be hard for you to understand because I was always against changing the 16 1/2 # class rules at Williamsport. The situation is completly different for the two ranges, even now.

As far as sending out letters to you or anyone else concerning change, you must be kidding. I may have talked to you by email in the past as just my opinions but nothing else. Maybe you forgot, when Hubie stepped down so did I and that was before any rule change took place so why would I have talked to you during the time I was still on the Board, about change??

In addressing support of the Williamport range-------Any Board member in the years I served on the Board know of the support I always gave to that range. Even behind the scenes financial help was given that most don't know about. It was our way of giving back to the club since I was a life member. Williamport was always my top priority during match weekends but, I have now come to the opinion that shooting isn't everything in the World.

So in closing, I'm sure the Williamport range will continue on a positive path as it always has done.

If I ever see you again Phil, a face to face conversation is in order about calling someone a lier. Fair enough ? We can set up that duel.

Darryl

Yukon Kid
03-01-2008, 12:24 PM
OK, fellows your "barrels" are now empty!!!! Peter Flisock a.k.a. Yukon Kid P.S. I mean both gun barrels and fuel barrels!!!

4Mesh
03-01-2008, 09:34 PM
Well Darryl, if you were half as smart as you think YOU are, maybe you’d have seen this as a good thing a decade ago, when people from all over the country told you it was. Take particular note to the fact that it did not take me a decade to see it. YEARS ago, I wanted to allow 17# guns here, even when it was shot down because of your lobbying. My opposition to it for the regular season was based solely on the potential for loss of members from fears, real or imagined. Most of those fears were instilled in people by those of you who went around telling people how “disadvantaged” they’d be… and a zillion other things. Oh, you’ll see Buck Roger’s Ray Gun!!! Ewwwwww. I’m here laughing thinking about Joe talking one night all animated, saying “Bring Buck Rogers Ray Gun! Shoot it! Make a believer out of me! I don’t care! Stick lasers on the gun! Just put the holes closer’n we do now and Ill be impressed! ” omg he was funny…

Now, lets go back a few years. Winter 2005, you and 3 others said that if we tried to change the heavy gun rules back the way they were since the dawn of time, that you would quit shooting (and assured us many others would follow. Well they haven’t, other than those who’ve died and unfortunately that’s a large number.). You were so opposed to those changes in fact, that you went to find old members who’d not shot for many years to come join the cause and vote against the changes. Obviously you felt as you always did that there’s no sense in letting the people who shoot decide. No no, you know better what to do, and you will decide for everyone.

Well, those who predicted the decline in attendance (you) made certain that prophecy came true, cause when the rules got put back, you quit. At the same time, the stock tape on lg’s got legalized and despite opposition to that, (probably cause nobody put it on anyhow), John, Dianne and Hubie continued to shoot the LG class, but quit the HG class that very match. You had not shot a match to that time in 06 but via email, said to me you intended to, and with that, 05 match 10 was your last regular match. Joining the others in the World Open, you shot in the LG class only, fulfilling your prophecy that you would not shoot in the HG class if the rules were put back (sound like a boycott…)

At the same time in the beginning of that year, a vote came up to allow IBS legal guns at the WO, to which you were all vehemently opposed and lobbied heavily to the easily influenced membership how bad this would be. That vote was shot down unfortunately, so you came and shot the WO LG only, but still had a corncob up your ass about the HG rules so you boycotted that as you said you would. However, in 2007, that vote was heavily in favor of allowing IBS shooters to shoot, and with that, NONE of you shot.

Now, either what you said then was a lie, or what you say now is, but one way or the other, the shoe fits. Now, if you want to have a “duel”, that’s fine. We’ll just have it. I hope the duel isn’t a bet on shooting in matches where I have to wait over a year for you to pay again like last time.

The letter I referred to was addressed from John and Dianne (or just John, I’m not certain any more). All great ideas I might add. Virtually a carbon copy of what I already had on my agenda. The only trouble I had with it was, I didn’t understand why if some of these were such great ideas that they were not addressed while you and she were there on the board??? I was scratching my head, believe me. In fact, one huge item was put there after a rangemaster’s stand speech from YOU. I have failed in ridding us of that and now it’s another of your wonderful cans of worms left behind. The single biggest detriment to the club, period.


In addressing support of the Williamport range-------Any Board member in the years I served on the Board know of the support I always gave to that range. Even behind the scenes financial help was given that most don't know about. It was our way of giving back to the club since I was a life member. Williamport was always my top priority during match weekends but, I have now come to the opinion that shooting isn't everything in the World. Well, I’ve asked quite a few… None seem to agree. There was stuff went on behind the scenes, that portion of that sentence was a truism.

Rules/classes: Now I must ponder to myself, why would the light gun class rules need changed there, if there is to be another class of factory guns? Factory guns weigh 17#???? So what you’re saying is there will not be a factory class, only one class that now allows factory guns to compete? Or is it that factory guns can not be called factory guns if they don’t also fit the LG class rules? Or there’s different types of factory guns? This is too confusing. I vote for 17# and forget the rest of the crap!

You’ve succeeded in separating these two clubs easily as well as you did the PA club from others. Abe Lincoln didn’t do as good a job of separating the north and south as you have. …2005 rules… Why didn’t you just come right out and say, “If you’re from the PA club or own a heavy gun, we don’t want you here.” It woulda saved a lot of time. From all over the country I answered emails asking wth is this 05 rules about?

I’ll tell you what. You just stop causing issues for this range, stop giving Joe a ration of $&*& all the time, and I’ll stop replying to any of your posts, Johns, or any others about your range. “Fair Enough?” I have not the slightest interest in how you run that place or what you do, or what rules you use. I have no doubt that the range there will do just fine, as will this one, and that using the 17# rules will be the best thing you ever did. If it does not turn out to be, it’s a damn site wiser than 2005 PA rules. I sincerely hope the same happens here but I have a sneaking suspicion that the biggest opposition to it happening here… is there. Time will tell, won’t it?

Good luck with the new club and the new rules. If it doesn’t work out, you can have my job here.

vinny
03-01-2008, 10:11 PM
Guys
Your kinda spoiling the excitement for the first relay. God, I waited all winter spending all my free time sorting, weighing and turning you name it, I did it. I did this with great enthusiasm and anticipation for a great second season and you guys are almost spoiling it. Why don't you all just give it up and settle your differences on or in a nonpublic forum. Like a meeting hall!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hell and to think I have two new rifles to play with and the playground is filled with boys that just want to throw sand in each-others faces.
Try not to air the dirty laundry and remember there are plenty of anti-gunners probably on this forum who just love watching you guys cut each-other up!
Vinny

DDCC
03-01-2008, 10:55 PM
You just don't learn do you.

First off, I haven't even talked to Joe by Email or phone about anything in many months or maybe years now so don't even insinuate it. I answered his post on this thread because of the content of what he was saying to "me" about support. That didn't concern "you" at all so don't say it did.


I wasn't giving anyone a rash of $33$ as you just stated.
I'm sure Joe can do his own talking without having someone like you doing it for him. You would certainly be the last person for that.



As I mentioned earlier, I don't have any desire to shoot at Willaimsport at this time. What happens there, happens and I just hope it's good for everyone concerned, even you.

During our years at Williamsport, Carol and I had fun, made many friends and made some enemy's too which is par for the course when being on the Board for so many years. You will find you can't make everyone happy no matter how hard you try and that goes for any organization.

Instead of you mouthing off about things you dont have any idea what your mouthing about, maybe you should get a hobby. You tend to hide behind your computer screen to much which I guess is your style.
Things your accusing me of is so far off base it's rediculous. Get your facts straight before trying to accuse me or anyone else of anything.

You honestly don't deserve a reply to any of your posts but I tried to explain the situation which I see was not to your liking. You don't have to agree with me and I most certainly don't have to agree with you either so maybe we should just leave it at that and agree to disagree.

I think this thread has run it's course.


Later
Darryl

4Mesh
03-01-2008, 11:37 PM
I have made every effort not to contact you Darryl. Your misunderstanding on what the difference is between a few months, many, and years pretty much shows what a glazing over this is getting. Years? It has not been years, or many months has it? Certainly not enough months. A few... at best. If anyones memory is failing here, it's not mine.

Once again, please, stay out of decisions here, directly or by proxy, and I will stay out of there. Remember the part about not pleasing all the people all the time, great point.

We will agree to disagree, and yes it has run it's course.

Natty Bumpo
03-02-2008, 05:44 AM
Bummer!
..........now I gotta go back to watching extreme fighting on cable.

Charles E
03-02-2008, 09:35 AM
The past is just that.

One thing I don't want on my tombstone is a scorecard charting the number of times I was right versus the number of times I was wrong. Yeah, I think I'm right more often than wrong, but it isn't how I want to be remembered. When my father died, it fell to me to decide what words would go on the stone. I picked "A good man," because I couldn't think of any higher praise.

As to all the worries about technology: There will always be technological improvements. They will always cost money. If the rules prevent design improvements, that money will just go into manufacturing improvements. Or is the Remmy really just as good as a BAT?

Old records are just that, too. They are *old records* and they will be broken, for one reason or another. Is Tiger Woods better than Jack Nicholas? who knows. Even if they had to use the same equipment designs -- and they don't -- living at different times makes a difference.

We are better off not ruling out design improvements. They don't cost any more, often not as much. I started shooting long-range in part because the design of point-blank rifles was stagnant. Now that's opening up some. And I think most agree that to the extent we're losing shooters, it isn't because of those design changes (tuners just now), but because of the cost of travel. A tuner is a lot cheaper than a new action.

Just where is it we want to go?

DDCC
03-02-2008, 09:42 AM
I have made every effort not to contact you Darryl. Your misunderstanding on what the difference is between a few months, many, and years pretty much shows what a glazing over this is getting. Years? It has not been years, or many months has it? Certainly not enough months. A few... at best. If anyones memory is failing here, it's not mine.

Once again, please, stay out of decisions here, directly or by proxy, and I will stay out of there. Remember the part about not pleasing all the people all the time, great point.

We will agree to disagree, and yes it has run it's course.

__________________________________________________ ____________

Yes it has run it's course but, Just to jog your memory one last time--- Life members of the Williamsport club still have voting rights don't they. I am a life member as are some of the older shooters at Williamsport so don't you ever tell me to stay out of anything. If my opinion don't match yours your welcome to disagree.

The last time I talked to Joe Salt on the phone was when we lived over in Driftwood and we moved to our new place Nov 12 2006 with a different phone number. The call was before that date by the way. How long is that Phil? Remember Joe began as President in Jan of 2006. He's been in that office for two whole years now starting on his third.
Please get you facts together before posting next time. Your again reaching for straws.

I want to apoligize to all the 1000 yard shooters in the country for this display of nonsense from Phil and I. It should never have come to such a heated debate on this or any other forum. Many words should not have been spoken however when "I'm" attacked personally I will respond acordingly and I think you will agree. To discredit anyone on an open forum is uncalled for and I will "try" to do my best in the future to avoid such behavior regardless who it comes from.

Good shooting to all in 2008. Hope many records are broke and the bullets that Vinny has been working on may just do it I hope.

Later
Darryl

PS-------Well said Charles E. Didn't see your post before I sent mine in.

lngrng
03-15-2008, 08:24 PM
Children......... behave!
Sometimes the best solution is to just walk away and shut up, that's what I finally did..............I found that I couldn't win an argument with a fool no matter how I tried. Regardless of what question I asked, I never received an honest response, instead, a twisting of words to make the respondent look right..........probably only to himself and his followers! The rules are written in black and white and intended to be exactly what they say, unfortunately, they can be interpretted by the people in charge to mean what THEY wish them to mean. Fortunately, the majority of people are smarter than they are..........most likely due to the fact that they don't have their own agenda.

The guilty know who they are, and their response proves this!