PDA

View Full Version : ammo rules



nickthe
02-20-2008, 08:38 AM
I just heard that you would have to manufacture one million rounds a year in order to qualify for use in a official match.

Well with the cost of good rim-fire ammo doesn't this work against the growth or preservation of this great sport.

At these prices one small (US) company could really have a shot at creating a win win....... What do you people think?

jobs, fare prices, quality control, 3 grades red (practice) white (intermediate) blue (match)

nick the *****

nickthe
02-20-2008, 04:55 PM
220 views and not one response, eley or lupa could charge a buck a round what's going to stop them?
Im sure by summer there will be a shortage on powder of some other thing.

DonMatzeder
02-20-2008, 05:35 PM
a million rounds is less than the BR community shoots in a season and we are a very small percentage of the folks that shoot it just in the US. No need to change any rules. Some bean counter just needs to figure out how much we shoot and the price we pay. A small dedicated line could be run very efficiently and profitably. The patented Eley priming process may be the road block. Government won't allow the old process and Eley syphons off the profit with their patent. Just a guess.

nickthe
02-20-2008, 07:32 PM
perhaps with some R&D and yankee ingenuity a new priming system, more accurate, will flesh out. Who knows this new US company may become the envy of the world.

daletheman_3
02-21-2008, 01:53 AM
I have wondered why either Eley or Lapua does not have a factory in the states also. With the demand by US shooters, and the fact that they would cut out import taxes and some shipping costs, I would think it would pay off for them. In theory they would be able to deliver good quality ammo for less than we pay now. But then again.. they have no reason to ask for less as long as we buy it......:(

I for one would love to see a US mfg start making good quality ammo, like federal did. Maybe CCI would look into this (they make a few shells here and there :D). Anyway, we can only hope..

missing
02-21-2008, 10:55 AM
aren't Federal and CCI owned by the same company?
If they shut the Federal "Match Ammo" line down why would they start one up as CCI? Generally CEO's don't like to admit that they made a mistake.
JMHO - you all have a good day now - "missing" cdpersons

nickthe
02-21-2008, 02:06 PM
you would think after the R&D and tooling, that this ammo could be produced relatively inexpensively

Rich In Kansas
02-21-2008, 03:11 PM
American manufacturers will make the ammo we need if they see a nitch where they can make money. If they think they can make a profit they will jump in with both feet. There are startup cost and materials cost. I am sure they look at these issues on a regular basis. That is why they add some products and drop others on a regular basis. They don't care so much about us as they do their pockets and stockholders.

Rich

John Kielly
02-21-2008, 05:10 PM
aren't Federal and CCI owned by the same company?

Yes

tim
02-21-2008, 05:17 PM
you would think after the R&D and tooling, that this ammo could be produced relatively inexpensively
A. You'd be very surprised at the total ongoing cost
B. The economics is no better than the CF bench game, the total number of participants is fairly small compared to, say, the number of guys that buy Remington golden bullets to punch holes in cans.

nickthe
02-21-2008, 08:46 PM
that go's back to my point of having to make one million rounds in order to qualify for sanction match....

If that rule didn't exist that would open up the door for a grass roots effort to R&D something hear in the states by a small group of people.

Maybe 100k rounds first year and then if all go's well a million.

John Kielly
02-21-2008, 08:59 PM
If that rule didn't exist that would open up the door for a grass roots effort to R&D something hear in the states by a small group of people.

Maybe 100k rounds first year and then if all go's well a million.
I may be getting to be a cynic as I get older, but over the years, I've seen more than one instance where the man cleaned up with his exclusive revolutionary gismo at one match but the suckers who bought it when he launched it couldn't make it work at all.

nickthe
02-21-2008, 09:51 PM
I may be getting to be a cynic as I get older, but over the years, I've seen more than one instance where the man cleaned up with his exclusive revolutionary gismo at one match but the suckers who bought it when he launched it couldn't make it work at all.

Who do you think lost more money the "sucker" or the guy that paid to R&D and manufactured a ton of gismo's that no one wanted after the word was out?

If this trend of upping 22 ammo prices is not changed 22 matches we be only the sport of kings and congress.

TangoTwo
02-22-2008, 07:21 AM
that go's back to my point of having to make one million rounds in order to qualify for sanction match....

If that rule didn't exist that would open up the door for a grass roots effort to R&D something hear in the states by a small group of people.

Maybe 100k rounds first year and then if all go's well a million.


I don't think 20 cases of ammo is even worth the effort to tool up for production. You can't even think of any return on investment with such a small lot. A million rounds isn't that much in a year.

Ken

nickthe
02-22-2008, 10:01 AM
I don't think 20 cases of ammo is even worth the effort to tool up for production. You can't even think of any return on investment with such a small lot. A million rounds isn't that much in a year.

Ken

THAN WHY DO YOU NEED THE RULE!:confused:

DonMatzeder
02-22-2008, 10:07 AM
To keep someone from claiming to be a company and loading their own ammo.

nickthe
02-22-2008, 10:19 AM
To keep someone from claiming to be a company and loading their own ammo.

ok, so that would be.. a threat to the game?
looks like that it could promote competition and growth, and maybe start a new ammo company

nickthe
02-22-2008, 11:15 AM
I may be getting to be a cynic as I get older, but over the years, I've seen more than one instance where the man cleaned up with his exclusive revolutionary gismo at one match but the suckers who bought it when he launched it couldn't make it work at all.

while we are talking about suckers how about the guy on a fixed income at the time in his life when he finely has the time to enjoy shooting but cant afford to be competitive has to shoot k-mart specials or just quits

TangoTwo
02-22-2008, 02:08 PM
ok, so that would be.. a threat to the game?
looks like that it could promote competition and growth, and maybe start a new ammo company

Maybe not a threat to the game, but quite possibly to himself or the shooter next to him. From an even field concept, the ammo would have to be readily available for all competitors. Hence, the arbitrary one million figure. This is only my thought, not necessarily the original or current reasoning behind the rule.


Ken

Wilbur
02-22-2008, 06:56 PM
Some rules exist because of perception. To speak of such in a logical sense does not address the issues behind the rules. "What if" can quickly become a perceived reality regardless of the likelihood of occurrence.

Suppose for the moment, the ammo rules were simplified to "readily available ammunition". Sounds good at first blush. Now, what does readily available mean? Even within actual readily available ammo there has been concern that the good lots have been withheld for selected individuals. Sadly, friendships have been lost and bridges burned because of ammo.

Again, consider the "what ifs" when evaluating seemingly stupid and overly restrictive rules. A good question to kick around is how did the rule evolve in the first place.

garrisone
02-22-2008, 08:38 PM
Yes my friend I agree with you. There should be some American company that will produce some good ammo and then we could grow -have fair prices and not be gouged .garrisone.

missing
02-22-2008, 10:08 PM
I am new to this forum but is this "even field" thing only applicable to ammo?
I think that we are kidding ourselves if we think that every "lot" of ammo is available to us all. Hypathically speaking if I were to develope a rifle that was superior to anything else out there and I only wanted to make one and shoot if myself would it be outlawed because it wasn't readily available to all. If one of the major ammo companies ran 1,000,000 rounds of "special" ammo and only release it to shooters whom they sponsor they would have met the rule requirement but it sure wouldn't be an even field. So why the million rounds rule? Hey, I will be the first to admit its their association they can make whatever rules they want and if a guy is offended he doesn't have to shoot. I just think that this even field thing is a perceptial thing and a joke that cannot truely be enforced. I am on the BoD of a shooting association and our rules for 22 rf ammo states "unaltered factory ammo". We have no way of proving if someone has altered ammo other than asking a shooter for a sample and sending it back to the factory and asking for them to certify that it is "as manufactured". How practical is that? How can I prove if a guy has altered the lube in some way? I can't - I may have a pretty good idea - but prove it - I can't. So as far as I am concerned the rule is a joke. If an even field is truely what you are after then the people putting on the match should supply the same lot number of ammo to all competitors - but then some people will complain "my rifle does not like that brand or that lot". My friends this is a no win battle - I think that it is an almost un-enforceable rule - and what is the point of it if it cannot be truely enforced?
Sorry for running on - just one of my pet peves - Lets be honest about this - it is not an inexpensive sport - you buy the best that you can afford and do the best with it that you can. What makes you think that if an American company makes good match ammo it will cost less than the foreign ammo - the way I remember it when Federal was in the game their prices were as high as anybodies. - you all have a good day now - the missing

Wilbur
02-22-2008, 10:15 PM
"Kidding ourselves" appears to be the popular alternative.

bill s
02-22-2008, 10:31 PM
Some of the last UM1 I saw went for $1200 a case when red box Eley was less than that....:confused:

nickthe
02-23-2008, 12:29 AM
If the rule was designed to create some kind of even playing field than calfee guns should be outlawed after-all how many people have access to this limited number of very expensive guns?

Joe Friedrich
02-23-2008, 01:22 AM
Nick, there is no guarantee that every rifle he builds is a winner, He will agree to that. He has his chosen few who are very good shooters. The price for one of his rifles or pistols are what people who are selling them are getting, and doubling or tripling their profits of what they paid Bill for his work. It is what it is.

The same goes for the ammo, we can bitch, moan and get all worked up about the should Be's, it's not going to change a thing. It is what it is until it's not anymore.

Missing, I could not agree more with your post.

Joe

nickthe
02-23-2008, 02:53 AM
I no more think that calfee guns should be restricted than, I think small batch 22 ammo should be.
My point is sport should be allowed to progress with out restrictions on far innovation.
Waiting for the big guys to do it is self limiting by what the traffic will bare, if its not broke for them (PROFITS) why change any thing.

thanks
,

TangoTwo
02-23-2008, 08:25 AM
Some rules exist because of perception.

A good question to kick around is how did the rule evolve in the first place.

Wasn't there, didn't hear it first hand, but, the story goes:

Early on in 50/50 a shooter suggested that he may just load his own ammo. Milt Cook didn't particularly like the sounds of hand loaded ammo in his game. He oulawed it then and there. The one million rounds a year is a number he pulled out of the air. If you never had the pleasure of meeting Milt, suffice it to say, he was many things to many people, but, undecisive he wasn't.

Ken

Tom C.
02-23-2008, 10:23 AM
of all the different lines a maker makes have to add up to a million
will lapua really make a million rounds of it's x-act ammo
or will they just sell to a select few. i can see a black market
developing now would you be willing to pay a buck a shot?