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Swifty
02-19-2008, 02:00 AM
Hey guys, for some reason when I seat bullets for my .220 Swift I get shavings of copper off my bullet jacket that gets scraped off by the neck of my brass. I have tried a number of different things to try to stop this. I have trimmed, full length resized, neck sized, chamfered, and deburred. I reload for a number of other calibers and have never experienced this problem before. I just started reloading for my .220 and I have noticed that the thickness of the neck on this brass seems thicker than I think it should be. (But as I said I'm new to this caliber) Could this neck thickness be my problem??? Any ideas or suggestions?? Thanks in advance!

Swifty
02-19-2008, 02:02 AM
Oh and I suppose I should mention, I am using Winchester Brass and seating 50 gr. Sierra Blitzkings. Although I have tried a couple other bullets and the same thing occurs!

fireball10x
02-19-2008, 02:40 AM
Maybe your seating die is adjusted too low and the case is in the die too far and its making the neck smaller as you seat it.measure the diameter of the neck on a resized case then run it through your seater and remeasure it, if it comes out smaller back the die out a little if it comes out the same then it could be neck thickness or the decapping pin expander button is the wrong size and not expanding the neck enough.And did you champher the inside of the neck after you sized it.Measure the neck on a loaded round and subtract the bullet diameter .224 then divide by 2 and you have your case neck diameter if the total diameter of the loaded round is say .254 then your necks are probably too thick .015.But I still think you should champher the in side of the neck more.Do you have a neck turner?

John Kielly
02-19-2008, 02:43 AM
I recall a similar issue on another forum where a shooter was distorting the ogive of the projectile while seating & ripping the jacket about. He posted pictures to the site too. Now in his case, what was very evident was that he had done a very unsatisfactory job of chamfering the inside neck of his cases. In the photos, you could see curls of turnings like lathe swarf all around the neck of the case.

In your case, you're loading relatively fragile projectiles, designed to fragment explosively into a pretty tough case. I can think of a couple of possibilities.

Neck chamfering. If it's been done lightly or not at all, then the square edge of the case mouth could shave bits off the softer jacket.

Neck Sizing. Is it possible that your sizing die is squeezing the neck down more than is desirable for the projectiles you are using.

Case necks that haven't been satisfactorily cleaned inside after firing can act as an abrasive in some circumstances. While I wouldn't expect it would result in shaving the projectiles, it could inhibit the projectile sliding enough to maybe cock it sideways a tad if your seating die doesn't suit the projectile ogive.

ultramagmed
02-19-2008, 07:37 AM
I recall a similar issue on another forum where a shooter was distorting the ogive of the projectile while seating & ripping the jacket about. He posted pictures to the site too. Now in his case, what was very evident was that he had done a very unsatisfactory job of chamfering the inside neck of his cases. In the photos, you could see curls of turnings like lathe swarf all around the neck of the case.

In your case, you're loading relatively fragile projectiles, designed to fragment explosively into a pretty tough case. I can think of a couple of possibilities.

Neck chamfering. If it's been done lightly or not at all, then the square edge of the case mouth could shave bits off the softer jacket.

Neck Sizing. Is it possible that your sizing die is squeezing the neck down more than is desirable for the projectiles you are using.

Case necks that haven't been satisfactorily cleaned inside after firing can act as an abrasive in some circumstances. While I wouldn't expect it would result in shaving the projectiles, it could inhibit the projectile sliding enough to maybe cock it sideways a tad if your seating die doesn't suit the projectile ogive.


with John, I have had the same problem years ago when I first stated reloading. I didn't chamfer enough, I now make sure I get a noticeable bevel on the inside of the case neck. I also use a Lyman "vld" chamfer tool and have been very happy with the results. Hope this helps.

Thanks, JKM.

f d shuster
02-19-2008, 07:45 AM
Swifty: Your problem could be the sharp edge that is left after de-burring, using the standard case mouth de-burring tool: looks like a rocket ship. A simple test is: after "standard" de-burring of the case mouth, take a flat-based bullet and try to balance it on the case mouth. Most likely it will fall onto the floor/bench. I have been using the K&M inside taper neck reamer for years ( $24.00). It will cut a more gentle entry angle. A cut of only 1/32" deep, from the case mouth is necessary. After that, I can take a flat-based bullet, gently sit it on the case mouth, and without pushing it in, it will remain in place, even when I rotate the case with the bullet pointing down. I first discovered the shortcomings of the "rocket ship" tool when attempting to seat flat based bullets that had a pressure ring. Unless your brass is stretching a lot, this should be a one-time operation. The taper neck reamer works so well, I fitted the cutter to my Forster case trimmer. Still use the "rocket ship" for inside/outside, but then do the inside with the taper cutter.

Bnhpr
02-19-2008, 07:48 AM
May get scolded for this one...

This used to happen to me with 22-250

A good chamfer and I roll the bullets between my fingers, which have a tiny residue of case lube on them helps tremendously.

I would not be afraid of rolling the bullets on the pad, and putting a tiny bit of case lube on the bullets, and wiping them as the loads go in the ammo box.

Ben

crb
02-19-2008, 07:54 AM
I have added a new twist to my trimming/deburring routine. After I do the inside/outside chamfer I twist the case mouth on a green Scotchbrite pad that is laying on the workbench.

anyrange
02-19-2008, 08:11 AM
I had a similar issue. See article.
http://home.comcast.net/~jesse99/HowNotToSeatBullets.html
I now use a little cone shaped cutter to deburr the neck OD's.

Swifty
02-19-2008, 10:01 AM
Thanks for the advice so far guys, I am going to try a few different things and see what happens. First of all I am going to figure out my case neck diameter because I think that is the problem. When I look at the neck it just looks way too thick. I do not have a neck turner, maybe this is something I need to invest in? I dont know much about neck turning. Anyhow, I really don't think it is a chamfering/deburring problem because I have tried neck sizing then chamfering/deburring the HECK out of the cases before loading and they still do it. I am using an RCBS Trim Mate Pro Electric tool and I really dont think I have been skimping on my chamfering and deburring. And I dont think it is the seating die that is doing it either, I have tried playing with that. I set my seater die the same as I usually do (maybe that is wrong), but what I do is put a case in my press and run it to the top of the stroke then screw the seater die down until it touches the case then back it out two full turns. Another thing I am gonna try is a different lot of brass as this brass is probably all from the same lot because I bought two bags at the same time and that is the only brass I have bought so far for my Swift.

gt40
02-19-2008, 10:46 AM
First off I use new Winchester brass that I get from MidwayUSA and only had one problem that I explain bellow. Not the brasses fault.

Have you tried a long shank socket (without the ratchet) with fine steel wool packed fairly tight into it? After you debur inside and out put the bullet end into the steel wool and turn the case back and forth which will polish the inside and outside of the neck mouth.

I also like this which length trims, and deburs inside and out exactly the same for each case. Once adjusted you never have to touch it again. You only have to adjust the outside debur and the OAL of case. Pretty easy to adjust. Oh, I almost forgot. If you do get one check the inside guide to make sure it is the one you ordered. The second one I ordered had a 20 caliber in the 22 caliber box from the factory. There happened to be a good movie on TV when I used the 20 cal. on 100 new .220 Swift cases. I didn't notice that the cases were wabbeling :eek: and I had to send it back for a replacement. Not Midways fault.

If you notice in the photo that I made a small aluminum tray to catch the brass filings. I also offset the trimmer on the base so when I push down on the spring loaded case holder it stays flat and not flip over.

If you order one of these they are for particular calibers.
RCBS Trim Pro 3-Way Cutter 22 Caliber
Product #: 145038
Status: Available
Our Price: $44.99 Sale!
Compare at: $45.99 You save $1.00!
Average Customer Rating: Top Rating

http://www.midwayusa.com/ebrowse.exe/browse?CurrentSort=manufacturer_a&CurrentCountRet=50&CurrentManufacture=AnyCompany&CategoryString=9315***731***695***8935***&CategoryID=19913&BrandID=&page=1&KeyWord=&TabID=1&company_select=AnyCompany&search_keywords2=&sort1=manufacturer_a&PageSelect=1&RecordsReturned=50&PageSelect2=1&NextButton.x=8&NextButton.y=12&RecordsReturned2=50

gt40

PS: I do not know what kind of reloader you have, but you should be able to just barely start to seat the bullet then stop and rotate the case and then complete the seating process. This can straighten up the bullet if it is starting in crooked which can cause the case to scrape the side of the bullet.

karls42
02-19-2008, 03:52 PM
If you use the old style 45 deg cutters you will ALWAYS damage the bullet, just pull down a loaded round and take a look. No brainer, just use one of the "low angle" 28 or 30 deg chamfers. Works like a charm.

bigdaddytacp
02-19-2008, 06:49 PM
Thanks for the advice so far guys, I am going to try a few different things and see what happens. First of all I am going to figure out my case neck diameter because I think that is the problem. When I look at the neck it just looks way too thick. I do not have a neck turner, maybe this is something I need to invest in? I dont know much about neck turning. Anyhow, I really don't think it is a chamfering/deburring problem because I have tried neck sizing then chamfering/deburring the HECK out of the cases before loading and they still do it. I am using an RCBS Trim Mate Pro Electric tool and I really dont think I have been skimping on my chamfering and deburring. And I dont think it is the seating die that is doing it either, I have tried playing with that. I set my seater die the same as I usually do (maybe that is wrong), but what I do is put a case in my press and run it to the top of the stroke then screw the seater die down until it touches the case then back it out two full turns. Another thing I am gonna try is a different lot of brass as this brass is probably all from the same lot because I bought two bags at the same time and that is the only brass I have bought so far for my Swift....I would do a chamber cast and check your chamber neck diameter...I got a lot of Winchester Swift brass and the neck walls were so thick that they wouldn't chamber in a factory P64 factory chamber when loaded.....my chamber will take max of .018 walls and std .224 bullets with .03 total clearance....I spin a old bore brush with OOO steel wool on it in the beveled case mouth to get a smooth edge for seating molly bullets.....Winchester didn't care when I called them about possible problems with the Swift brass....said chambers vary....mine is exactly on published neck diameter...263in. hth...good luck and good shooting-loading!!

Swifty
02-19-2008, 10:47 PM
So you guys have me convinced to try a different more gentle sloping chamfering tool however the only problem I have is that I like to to chamfer/deburr using my RCBS Trim Mate Case Prep Center which has a removable chamfering cutter attatchment that is held on with a hex head. It is a 45 degree cutter I believe. My question is this; can I get a bolt on attatchment cutter that replaces my 45 degree cutter that can be put on my Case Prep Center???

JeffVN
02-20-2008, 08:43 AM
Yes you can. I recently swapped out the old chamfer tool with a new one on my prep center. I got my replacement at Midway for 10.95.

JeffVN

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=356834&t=11082005

ultramagmed
02-20-2008, 09:46 AM
So you guys have me convinced to try a different more gentle sloping chamfering tool however the only problem I have is that I like to to chamfer/deburr using my RCBS Trim Mate Case Prep Center which has a removable chamfering cutter attatchment that is held on with a hex head. It is a 45 degree cutter I believe. My question is this; can I get a bolt on attatchment cutter that replaces my 45 degree cutter that can be put on my Case Prep Center???

I also use a RCBS Trim Mate Case Prep Center. Mine has a small "allen" screw that acts as a stud, just turn the 45 degree chamfer off and turn the new one on. You may need to hold the other stations from turning, depending on how tight the bit is on the stud. PM if you have any questions.

JKM

Dennis Sorensen
02-20-2008, 11:08 AM
Measure your expander ball on the resizing die... try and get one slightly larger... ?

Swifty
02-20-2008, 03:20 PM
Dennis,
I will measure the expander ball on the sizing die but I dont think that is the problem seeing as this same thing happens with new brass if I dont even size them (I have tried all sorts of things). Anyway, what should the diameter of my expander ball be??

Dennis Sorensen
02-20-2008, 03:37 PM
Dennis,
I will measure the expander ball on the sizing die but I dont think that is the problem seeing as this same thing happens with new brass if I dont even size them (I have tried all sorts of things). Anyway, what should the diameter of my expander ball be??

I don't know what the exact measurement is but if you have thick brass and a tight neck in the sizing die the brass gets over sized quite small... then the expander ball is supposed to expand it... how ever the brass will spring back a bit after going over the expander ball... and in your instance if the expander ball was larger it would not leave such a tight neck for the bullet to enter... you may not be able to get a larger expander ball, I don't know... I would contact the die maker and see...

BJS6
02-20-2008, 03:52 PM
I agree with Dennis,

All the low angled chamfering and lubrication in the world are only masking the problem, that being the inside diameter of the neck is to small before seating the bullets, the "neck tension" is to high.

Get a Lee Collet neck die and a Redding body die and you will be sweet. The Collet neck die will size the case onto a central mandrel to have about 1 - 2 thou neck tension, end of bullet shaving !!

Bryce

WhelenMan
02-20-2008, 04:51 PM
One thing I've always done to help with brass shavings is to polish the inside of the case necks and mouths with 4-0 steel wool wrapped around a Q-tip. I picked it up from Varmint Al back when I started reloading and have always found it helps not only with consistency but with brass shavings.

Just Mike
02-20-2008, 05:10 PM
To answer your question about the diameter of the sizer ball, I went down to loading room and measured a couple .22 cals: 2 for 22-250 measured .223 and one for 22Hornet was .222 (as it should be).

Swifty
02-21-2008, 01:46 AM
I measured up the total width of my loaded rounds at the case necks they are all right at or above .254" so take that minus .224 for the bullet and divide it by 2, I come up with .016" case neck thickness. Isn't this way too thick?? I measured up the case neck thickness on some 22-250 rounds I have loaded up and they are only .013". Is it possible that the thick case neck doesnt expand enough when I run it over the expander ball and doesnt stretch enough when I seat my bullets. I measured my expander ball and that is just a hair less than .223" I took a look at some of my cousins brass for his .220 and the case necks dont appear to be nearly as thick.

Travelor
02-21-2008, 08:46 AM
Swifty, two things come to mind right off. First is the bullet - I love the BlitzKings and would not change them, but they do have thin jackets to assure they really expand when hitting a critter and do not ricochet- this thin bullet jacket could cause a little of the problem.

But I think the real problem is the amount of neck tension you are having when you seat the bullets. I used to use the "conventional" dies that over sized the necks then pulled then over and expander ball to bring the interior neck size to the proper diameter. The problem with these type of dies is that the oversize and stretch the brass and depend upon the brass to have the "proper" spring to assure the correct diameter. The results were one - stretched cases; and two - improper diameter necks.

The solution I found was getting a sizing die that sizes the neck by plunging it through a neck size collet that you can change to different sizes. This allows for adjustments to assure a uniform neck tension (I use .001") and no more stretched cases. I measure the loaded neck diameter and then get a collet that is .002" smaller sizing collet as there is usually about a .001: spring-back. One thing to remember is that just because the collet says a certain size that may not really be the size.

I think that if you get one of these dies (I use Redding but there are others) in combination with a VLD chamfer tool, you will stop this problem.

George

Just Mike
02-21-2008, 11:25 AM
Pardon me for being so blunt. I think you are hung up on case wall thickness.

No matter how thick it is the inside diameter of the neck would be determined by the size of the expander ball. You said yours is a hair under .223. My opinion (worth $.02) is that it is too small. I think if you get a expander .224 you'll solve the problem. The lower angled de burring tool will also help.

Swifty
02-21-2008, 12:00 PM
Mike--

I think you are right about me being hung up on case wall thickness, I am! It just kinda bothers the hell outta me to be honest! I am not saying that anyone is wrong about the expander ball thing but I took the expander ball out of my 22-250 die which I have used for many years, and put that expander ball in my .220 dies and the same thing occurred! Now keep in mind that I have loaded 22-250 ammo with this same expander ball for years and never had the jacket shaving problem. Now my theory is somewhat similiar to what Dennis and a few others have said, and that is the case necks on this brass is so thick that the expander ball tries to stretch it out to the correct dimension but it just shrinks back down. I'm trying a different lot of brass that my buddy gave and I would just about put money on the fact that it will take care of the problem!

Just Mike
02-21-2008, 12:28 PM
Whatever the solution is let us know. And good luck on finding it soon.

VarmintGuy
02-21-2008, 02:41 PM
Swifty: Loading for and using the 220 Swift brings with it certain "problems" or conditions if I could use that term?
I currently load for 5 Rifles in caliber 220 Swift!
Seems each Swift has its preference for "conditions" that have to be dealt with.
One of the conditions you will have to deal with is brass flowing due to the sloping design of the Swift. Among other things your necks may be thickening.
You did not say if this condition happens with new brass or with used brass - or with both.
If its with new brass you are either not chamfering enough or your expander ball needs to be replaced.
If its with used brass then your brass may be flowing (especially if you are using "full bore" loads) more than "normal".
One of my Swifts gets 5 reloads to a piece of brass and I do not load "hot" for any of my Swifts!
Personally I would start with a new expander ball (they're cheap!), along with more pronounced inside neck chamfering. If these things don't work then I would buy a new set of Redding dies for your Swift.
Sell your old ones - this is another relatively easy attempt at solving this situation/condition that is relatively painless, quick and inexpensive.
Then we also have to back up and consider if this "condition" is a real problem. Do you think your accuracy is suffering because of this shaving?
I doubt it.
I have shot countless handloads that have shaved a sliver of copper off of the bullet - with no noticeable effect (bullets disintegrating in flight, loss of accuracy, excessive bore fouling etc).
Some folks think that split necks are caused by excessive inside/outside chamfering - if you are not getting split necks I suggest chamfer the inside necks, some more!
Hope this situation gets solved to your satisfaction soon!
Long live the 220 Swift!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Swifty
03-04-2008, 10:11 PM
Hey guys, it took me awhile before I got around to fixing my problem but I did get it fixed! The only problem is that I changed two variables at the same time so I can't be sure which one fixed it, or both? I got a VLD chamfering tool and got a set of Lee Collet Dies and now I don't have the shaving problem anymore!

John Kielly
03-04-2008, 10:28 PM
Evenhandedness says both contributed their part.