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View Full Version : A long range action- Don't read it



PPP MMM
02-12-2008, 06:52 PM
A long range precision rifle single action of appropriate size to match the cartridges that are commonly used for this job (.30-378W, .338-378W, .338 Lapua, .338AI Lapua,.338 Allen, .375 Allen etc.)

Shoot well
Peter

BJS6
02-12-2008, 07:04 PM
If you don't want opinions/comments why spend an hour typing all that lot out !!

Here's my comment:

Peter, you are a clown of the highest order !

Jackson~in~GA
02-12-2008, 07:09 PM
Read only as I'm not interested about any of your comments.

Peter


Hmm, Then why post it?

BJS6
02-12-2008, 07:11 PM
Post 3 - refer last sentence of post 2 for the answer !!

Dusty Stevens
02-12-2008, 07:23 PM
wow. I think I'll go make one in SAE dimensions without all the extra add ons.

Frank Svenson
02-12-2008, 07:29 PM
So why not take all the extra time you spend typing and build one?
From all your posts it sounds as if you have the knowledge and maybe the skills.

Butch Lambert
02-12-2008, 07:38 PM
He likes to see hisself in print.
Butch

Jay, Idaho
02-12-2008, 07:39 PM
I was ready to comment on lug height, firing pin travel, depth of bolt carburization, cone angle, extractor design and a few other things and then I saw that comments were not wanted. But I enjoyed reading about the design concepts even if it would be cost prohibitive in today's market when compared to Lawtons, Surgeons, BATs and a number of other popular actions. US gunsmiths usually avoid receivers with Metric threads anyhow.

paul.222
02-12-2008, 09:00 PM
I believe he's a legend in his own mind!

Lucky Shooter
02-12-2008, 09:16 PM
to make you happy.

I didn't read it.

A. Weldy

Dusty Stevens
02-12-2008, 09:22 PM
http://www.pages.drexel.edu/~jg95/graphics/smartass/care_room.jpg

BJS6
02-12-2008, 09:36 PM
Good point lucky, just so Peter doesn't get to excited, I didn't read it either, I just saw who it was from and new it "was a crap" !!


Hey Peter, you know how start up an .........

http://i32.tinypic.com/2ijdy1.jpg

Bryce

Zebra13
02-12-2008, 09:49 PM
Good point lucky, just so Peter doesn't get to excited, I didn't read it either, I just saw who it was from and new it "was a crap" !!


Hey Peter, you know how start up an .........

http://i32.tinypic.com/2ijdy1.jpg

Bryce

Bryce,

I know I'm going to Hell just for having seen this...

Justin

BJS6
02-12-2008, 10:01 PM
Only if you laugh at it for more than 5 seconds Justin !!! :D


It is in slightly poor taste but fits the context of the moronic post that started this thread !!

Spott3r
02-12-2008, 11:47 PM
I'm still laughing...

Kiwi's can fly!!!

:D:D:D

P.Ericson
02-13-2008, 02:35 AM
PPP,

You really should try the "Blog" thing out. The whole thing is invented by people like you, who likes to make statements, but donīt like other peoples ideas.

Tony Z
02-13-2008, 03:50 AM
Stavax is a far superior steel using the inverted double melt process and chemical nitriding is better hardening option as distortion is minimal. I already use 32 x1.5 threads and most importantly you don't list a roller bearing on the cocking piece and extraction cam. These are a must have on a large magnum.

If i didn't know any better most all of these ideas were taken from one of my actions recently posted on 6 br.com. I nicknamed it Remroid, a Remington on steroids but you won't find that in a search. Nothing you post is original. All been done by many of the good smiths worldwide.


The attachment is of one of my earlier trials using the reduced bolthead style. Just a one off giant Hall B, 60 mm in diameter with a drop port.

From one smartass to another.

pduryee
02-13-2008, 10:56 AM
My Grandad said that since we won that war "we got to chose". Therefore I won't even read in metrics.

Zebra13
02-13-2008, 01:26 PM
[QUOTE=BJS6;385948]Only if you laugh at it for more than 5 seconds Justin !!! :D




Bryce,

Well, I'd better get out my hot weather gear because it's been over 12 hours and I'm still laughing!

Justin

Chisolm
02-13-2008, 03:19 PM
Stavax is a far superior steel using the inverted double melt process and chemical nitriding is better hardening option as distortion is minimal. I already use 32 x1.5 threads and most importantly you don't list a roller bearing on the cocking piece and extraction cam. These are a must have on a large magnum.

If i didn't know any better most all of these ideas were taken from one of my actions recently posted on 6 br.com. I nicknamed it Remroid, a Remington on steroids but you won't find that in a search. Nothing you post is original. All been done by many of the good smiths worldwide.


The attachment is of one of my earlier trials using the reduced bolthead style. Just a one off giant Hall B, 60 mm in diameter with a drop port.

From one smartass to another.
Tony
Any chance of getting some more information and pictures of your action.
I searched tonyz at 6br didn't find anything on the action but came up with a lot of other intersting information from threads you had posted on. Including some tensioned barrel stuff.;)

James

ArtinNC
02-13-2008, 04:41 PM
Now we have a PPP MMM and a MrD what do we get next??????

Sam Walker
02-13-2008, 06:08 PM
It never ceases to amaze me how some people are so metric-phobic !
Metric is good !
regadrs
Sam

Spott3r
02-13-2008, 06:16 PM
Nice looking action TonyZ. Is there more?
Thanks for the post, mate.

:D

Ps. Sam, same goes for drinking beer, eh? As in how much can a bloke down. I guess when it's warm like up North where you are it isn't much of a problem, eh...lol.

BillPa
02-13-2008, 08:16 PM
Only if you laugh at it for more than 5 seconds Justin !!! :D


It is in slightly poor taste but fits the context of the moronic post that started this thread !!

Bryce...thats enough dang it !!!!!

I just blew a chunk of peanut butter and jelly sandwich out my nose!

Knock it off!

Bill

BJS6
02-13-2008, 08:20 PM
You obviously managed to clean up the keyboard well enough Bill !! :D

Bryce

Zebra13
02-14-2008, 11:35 AM
...PM sent.

Thanks,
Justin

cntryboy1289
02-14-2008, 12:00 PM
I asked if he had ever designed an action and I guess this was his answer to that question.....

I think he thought it would hush us all up about the Mauser Post. Since I was told not to comment on it, and since I didn't take the time to actually read it, I won't waste any more time on it!!

Sounds to me though as he wasn't very creative. Guess ol' Peter and Paul did a pretty good job afterall.

PPP MMM
02-17-2008, 04:44 AM
Good point lucky, just so Peter doesn't get to excited, I didn't read it either, I just saw who it was from and new it "was a crap" !!


Hey Peter, you know how start up an .........

http://i32.tinypic.com/2ijdy1.jpg

Bryce,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Bryce, stop banging within the family.

Shoot well
Peter

4Mesh
02-17-2008, 11:40 AM
I finally read this mess and have not even looked at page two yet. Had I not read all of page one, I was about to say the things that Jay from Idaho said in his post. I think I'd have added a few items as well.

I don't like that receiver thread, and the metric part does not bother me even one bit. The bolt face recess makes me wonder. If this action is DESIGNED in Metric dimensions, then why not 3mm deep in stead of 3.2 (1/8") We must make up our minds I say. I mean, My action is a ground up design and I didn't comprimise on too many dimensions from what I would have wanted them. Like 0.

To Jay's list, I would like to add the Bolt Diameter, Square material is a pain in the ____s, I don't like one piece bolts even one little bit, EDM is the biggest waste of time I've ever heard of. Mea ning less. Threading after heat-treat... Thanks anyhow. 45Degree Lugs mean that the ramps which are much more important than surface, do not make enough contact without doing a 4Axis 3D electrode and Sinker EDM the Receiver Ramps in. That sounds like a real hoot.

I don't like dovetails.

And this action does not even address the largest problem of all. Peter, you have some more drawing to do.

All in all though, a reasonable action if you have the manufacturing equipment to deal with the built in design flaws. Simple is better.

I'll say this, a guy needs a full shop of equipment to build this baby.

PPP MMM
02-17-2008, 08:03 PM
I finally read this mess and have not even looked at page two yet. Had I not read all of page one, I was about to say the things that Jay from Idaho said in his post. I think I'd have added a few items as well.

I don't like that receiver thread, and the metric part does not bother me even one bit. The bolt face recess makes me wonder. If this action is DESIGNED in Metric dimensions, then why not 3mm deep in stead of 3.2 (1/8") We must make up our minds I say. I mean, My action is a ground up design and I didn't comprimise on too many dimensions from what I would have wanted them. Like 0.

To Jay's list, I would like to add the Bolt Diameter, Square material is a pain in the ____s, I don't like one piece bolts even one little bit, EDM is the biggest waste of time I've ever heard of. Mea ning less. Threading after heat-treat... Thanks anyhow. 45Degree Lugs mean that the ramps which are much more important than surface, do not make enough contact without doing a 4Axis 3D electrode and Sinker EDM the Receiver Ramps in. That sounds like a real hoot.

I don't like dovetails.

And this action does not even address the largest problem of all. Peter, you have some more drawing to do.

All in all though, a reasonable action if you have the manufacturing equipment to deal with the built in design flaws. Simple is better.

I'll say this, a guy needs a full shop of equipment to build this baby.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

To answer your concerns.
1) The thread is what I'll have and not what you like.
2) The bolt face is designed with safety at first at mind
3) The depth of the recess is designe around 1.65mm thick rim of the Weatherby case. So one doesn't end up with a thin hook(ala Mauser).
4) To add to the bolt diameter? 21mm bolt is 3.22 mm larger than that of 700 Remington. (There are still experts gunsmiths who are fitting .460WM in it)
5) The bolt is two lug designe with the lugs larger than the main body diameter (the lug diameter is 27mm)
6) The CNC doesn't mind which profile has to do. After everything is set up, it's just [Select Program, Enter the Program, Lock the Program]
7) CNC machined one piece bolt, including the handle is it a bad idea???
8) EDM not very fast, but precise.
9) TIN coated tungsten carbide thread insert in the CNC doesn't mind one little bit to cut 46HRC thread.
10) Ramps? I assume that you mean the locking shoulders. 90 degree or 45 degree will be made by CNC into 0.001mm on both ends (the seats and the bolt lugs) without a glich.
11) The CNC machined dovetail with single one piece base/ring mounts partially splited (6 bolts) fitted to the dovetail on the receiver will return to zero everytime.
12) It's not the major drawing to do, it's the one who criticises it to have the basic knowledge of engineering.

I'm talking about Industrial CNCs machinery and not some hobby Grizzlys made in China.

After shopping around I found a forger who can forge all the basic shapes needed to make the square action and the one piece bolt that will cost me as much as 50 pieces of .300WM cases. If I provide them with the steel.

Shoot well
Peter

4Mesh
02-17-2008, 08:54 PM
Hi again Peter.

1: You will be disappointed.
2: Only surprised that with all metric dimensions, you used SAE here.
3: Stronger yet if you do away with the additional .2mm depth
4: Wrong direction. I have one at 19mm and it's too large. Bullets still hit the barrel cone which on my rifles is 60 degrees, not 45, and I am talking about a 416 Rigby case without the belt that will tilt the case down even more.
5: I fully understand.
6: Your inside receiver ramps are what I was referring to. They will be difficult at best.
7: Yes I think so. It's my personal preference after having made both.
8: Unnecessary expense for no gain in performance.
9: I prefer another method for several reasons.
10: I would like to see tooling for that. As I said, Sinker EDM only. How else will you make a 4th axis move, with your 45 deg lug engagement and a radial profile to match at the same time. Not happening with conventional tooling that spins.
11: My system does not have to return to zero because it doesn't move to begin with.
12: I have the basic knowledge. I've already built mine. Already shot it, and it's proven to work. I've designed a thing or two in my day as well. Most of them have been successful.

Absolutely then, get started and follow through with the production. Just, get two blanks made and roughed out, so that when you find the problems you have with this one, you can get started on revision two.

I like your choice of materials and most of the design. However, I disagree with some of the details is all. Of course, My reply was not for you to dispute, only to read and not reply to! ;)

PPP MMM
02-18-2008, 01:22 AM
As I always say, "There is nothing that is ever perfect" and this action too is no exception.

2) There is no SAE measurement anywhere in the action. It's only a coincidence that the depth of the face happens to be 3.2mm which coresponds to or close to 1/8". The reason for being 3.2mm deep is that the Weatherby .378WM case has rim 1.65mm thick. On my simple calculation it's 1.5mm for the hook and 1.65mm for the rim leaving 0.05mm clearence some tolerances my come to the play here. Metric doesn't to have rounded figures.

Bullets hitting the end of the barrel?
I can't see it to happen with SMK pointed bullets to hit the 21mm cone/barrel/recess, as the side difference is only some 3mm, and the bullet point should be pointing directly into the chamber. There are no ramps as this is a single action, but if you happen to be right and it will happen it can be easily fixed by borring a partial slanted hole from the front to the bottom of the inner diameter using a single pointed borring bar. Just to give the case more straighforward entry angle. (maybe just 2-3mm lower at the rear would be plenty) Something like the Wichitas used to have ( Good point, you've mentioned, I didn't think it was needed, but I'm always willing to listen)

10) I do'nt quiet understand you here, but a cartridge with 45 degree shoulders will rest fully in the shoulders of the chamber, both "can" be machined by a single point tool. If we happen to cut the two into four pieces lengthwise we will get the "model" of the bolt/receiver scenario. Nothing special to worry about. If it will create any unnecessary problems it always can be made square 90 degree with a shallow rounded groove at the root of the lugs.

I think that I finally know what do you mean. You mean the locking cams ( I guess). Only the locking lugs of the bolt would be slanted on the CNC to move the bolt forward by 2.5mm the rest of the necessary pin movement would be taken care of the cocking cam in the rear end of the bolt.

??? Don't like square??? It always can be made round 47-50mm diameter with the bottom milled 3mm deep from the end of the front of the loading window to the end of the receiver to have a flat part to combat the torque.
The top can be milled to the dovetail and leaving 12mm at the front untouched to give a solid stop.

Where I live the Police Red tape is the main enemy.
All the specifications and materials have been selected and funny enough someone still wants a better action. Something like the trued Remington 700.The perfect action.
It's pitty that they can't go and buy one of mine, so they could rave about what an ACTION they have.

Shoot well
Peter

4Mesh
02-18-2008, 12:20 PM
Peter,

I agree, nobodys action will ever be perfect.

I still think 3mm is safer than 3.2, expecially with the shallow heads on some belted cases.

Bullets hitting the end of the barrel. I'm just going to say that in competition, I have had this happen to me several times. I remember 2 this past season. Here's the deal on mine. I have a bolt that is .702" diameter, (1.83cm). On either side, there also are raceways where there is no support to the case. When a case is put in too quickly and happens to get sideways, they will get smashed. Now, I already did exactly what you are doing because this used to happen to me with an action I had a long time ago with a .750" (19mm) bolt body and a 416 Rigby case. The case body was .592" (15mm) and there was only 2 mm on either side there. You have 3. I'm telling you it will happen at the most inopportune time. Again, I have a 60deg cone and still they hit occasionally. It is a great improvement over other systems though. The trouble with it is that it makes my chambering operation much more difficult since now the length to diameter ratio of my boring bar is at 10:1, so even my custom made bars have trouble reaching that for for chambering. My extra coned shroud hanging there helps feed issues, but makes construction much more difficult.

10: I think I may be the one misunderstanding you. I thought that when you said the 45 degree lug would increase the locking lug surface area, that you mean the receiver and bolt lugs will be cut on a 45 where they mate (cone against cone). I have heard of this being done before, and I understand your logic. However, making closing ramps on that 45 cone, along with 45 degree helical motion will be interesting to say the least. Just think for a minute about that geometry. It's complex. It will have to begin with rotation with only a point of contact, and worse yet, will close fully with a very small point of contact. CNC or no, I don't see how they will go in and make adequate contact. I may be misreading what you are saying, I'm not sure. I think you will see the bolt get jammed from time to time as you turn when closing. Do a 3D model on that and see what happens before building it.

Did you ever try to work on a square action? What a pain. Do you know how nice it is to simply weld up jaws and bore them, then go throw a part in and have perfect contact, along with something that needs indicated only to maybe .0005. You just tap the jaws and it's dead on. Well, I'll take that over making something that the jaws deform while I'm machining. If perfection is your aim, do away with the square receiver.

I'm sure the paperwork is a pain there. Do what you must. I"m sure you'll be happy with it when it's all done and there's no doubt in my mind it will perform well.

Good luck with it.

PPP MMM
02-18-2008, 03:53 PM
any good in explaining things well enough for someone else to actually understand. In this occasion I've ment the rear of the lugs/receiver matting surfaces as well to be under a 45 degree angle. The idea is from Gilkes action.
If it will work or not that's another story, as I've never done anything of this nature before. I just like the concept of it, more contact area, no sharp corners, centering the bolt, etc.
I personally like the Gilkes action and 95% of its features. I don't like the one pass of the large end mill to form the lugs and the only thing that I really hate is the Sako extractor weakening the bolt head.
The hassle with the Red tape, the trial and error, the fiddly bits here and there is not very appealing to me. One can spend a lot of time and money to get eventually everything as one wants, but is it worth the effort?

The quicker and easier way it would be to use 50mm diameter 4340, PH-17 round bar and to copy the best of the Gilkes action and change the few bits to the personal liking. Use the fat bolt, locking insert, longer bolt nose, contoure properly the locking lugs, different extractor, etc. Maybe some other time in the future.
As I don't shoot nor have an intention to shoot in competitions and don't have any large calibres at the moment, so for .300WM a trued Remington and 52x52x150mm long barrel block made of 4140 hold down by four M10x1mm is all I need at the momment.

The easiest way to make the long slanted loading platform is to use a vertical drill and drill (from the front) a 15mm diameter hole under the desired angle/length first and than to drill from the other side (the rear) with a larger drill in the lathe until the holes join. Then to bore right through with a single point boring bar slightly under the desired finnish diameter. Once that's done the bar can be turned around and machined from the front as desired.The straight hole would have an angled rounded platform to assist loading straight into the chamber. A thing to remember is to keep in mind that this is the bottom of the receiver while drilling, milling all the other holes.
If you or any of you want to make the action that I've described feel free to do so. If you can change the things to make it even better, it's to your credit.

Shoot well
Peter

4Mesh
02-18-2008, 04:23 PM
How soon do you think you'll have it finished? I'm sure it will be nice when you get it done.

Tony Z
02-20-2008, 09:46 AM
In 96 i did a 3 lugger with 45 degree mating lugs. The theory says that the shear forces on load is such that it is directed into the center of the bolt body and not in a sraight linear direction as with a square cut lug. Maybe more than double the strength for a given lug size. But the closing ramps and required angles are a real pain to machine into either the insert or even the bolt itself. I used this action for a season and then binned it. As far as i'm concerned, the 45 angle just increases bolt lift because of increased mating surface (1.414 x) as compared to the same height square lug, and is just not performance enhancing enough to justify a future use for me. There is a definite wedge effect on the lugs into their mates with real heavy loads and required much more bolt leverage force to the point of where i just got tired of repairing galled surfaces. Strength, for sure, but how strong does an action really need to be?

When i went to the three lugger in square lug design, same materials used all round, same case, same pressures in the same barrel, it has had no galling ever right up to present day. 45 is different and novel, but until you build one and have to fit barrels to one and have to put up with all the associated problems, you will do it just the once. At the time i did start a very neat little point blank action for a 6 PPC that has never been completed, and probably never will.

The two photos below are firstly of the bolt of the discarded action which is 25mm in diameter, and a photo of the uncompleted PPC action.

Tony Z.

PPP MMM
02-20-2008, 03:29 PM
Thanks for shearing your experience and confirming that the "wedge effect" exists and is able to negate any gains in the contact surface. I've never done anything of this nature, but I had some doubts about it in the back of my mind. You've confirmed it. So I better take your experience and go square.

Shoot well
Peter

Lynn
02-26-2008, 03:12 PM
Peter is this square action going to be the basis for your longrange hunting rifle? If so forget about making it another 375 H-H magnum.
How far are you planning on shooting deer with it?
Lynn

PPP MMM
02-26-2008, 03:37 PM
Peter is this square action going to be the basis for your longrange hunting rifle? If so forget about making it another 375 H-H magnum.
How far are you planning on shooting deer with it?
Lynn,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

The action/bolt is to be big enough to take 16.5mm (0.65") rim without any reservations, but I have my mind set on a .338Lapua. shooting 300SMK. For the time being the deer is safe. There was a YouTube clip of .338Edge/950y.elk on a Longrangehunting. Amazing.

Shoot well
Peter