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View Full Version : best high velocity 22lr for 100 yard accuracy



TexasJoe
02-11-2008, 09:22 PM
Hi,my question is what is the best high velocity 22lr ammo for 100 yard benchrest? thankks!

karls42
02-11-2008, 10:11 PM
I would go with the one that shoots the smallest groups.

_Shorty
02-11-2008, 10:19 PM
Yeah, that, and you should really consider forgetting about high velocity ammo in that quest. Match ammo is typically not 'high velocity' for many reasons. High velocity ammo behaves worse in the wind, as it is more affected by it. High velocity ammo will also pass through that 'trans-sonic' speed zone on its way out to the 100-yard line, where it goes from super-sonic speed back down to sub-sonic speed and the turbulence it experiences while doing so can and likely will upset the bullet's flight in a less than predictable manner, resulting in less accurate/repeatable points of impact. You're much more likely to get the results you're after if you use match ammo, for example, the stuff made by Eley or Lapua, than you are if you're using high velocity ammo. Match ammo stays below the speed of sound to avoid the problems associated with passing through that mach 1 barrier, and because it is less affected by the wind by staying sub-sonic. Is there a special reason you ask about high velocity stuff in particular?

TexasJoe
02-11-2008, 11:07 PM
Well ,what happened was shooting my kimber 22" barrell,1 in 9 twist it pretty consistently shoots 1" or better at 100 yards with RWS,or Eley etc..I believe they are about 1050fps. But with my 18" barrel SVT 1 in 9 twist kimber at 100 yards it did awful with the same ammo,Wolf,eley,rws etc.. BUT when i passed some federal bulk box auto match at 1200 fps,then their even cheaper bulk stuff at 1280 fps it did better..so I thought maybe high velocity is the way to go?? Thanks for your knowledge and help,Joe.

_Shorty
02-11-2008, 11:46 PM
I assumed .22 LR, and you said .22 LR, but I suppose a 1:9 twist indicates .17 HMR or HM2, no? A little strange to see a 1:9 twist barrel on a .22 LR gun, unless it's something like a conversion kit on a .223 centerfire gun. Although I do believe that Kimber's website incorrectly states their .22 LR guns have a 1:9 twist, which should have been text written for the same gun but in the .17 calibers. I'm pretty sure the Kimbers in question, in .22 LR, actually have a 1:16 twist.

Anyways, that aside, I think you're just running into the reason why people test different lots. They may find one particular lot shoots horrible in their gun, but another lot of the same ammo may perform much better. But in looking for good benchrest accuracy, especially out at 100 yards, you're going to have much better luck sticking with standard velocity match ammo. It just may take trying a few different lots before you find the performance you're after, and it's not a given that what performs well in one gun barrel will also perform well in another gun barrel. It's certainly possible, but all barrels are different and will tend to show preferences to different lots. If you really can't get that one gun to shoot with any lots of match ammo that you try, but the other one seems to shoot with some of them, perhaps there are issues with that one gun to be investigated and taken care of.

edit - Yeah, take a look here. The page says 1:9 right-hand twist, but if you click the Specifications link at the bottom of the page it brings up a table that shows different twist ratios for the .17 and the .22 LR barrels. The .22 LR barrel does indeed have a 1:16 twist. It would be rather strange if it did have a 1:9 twist, given the typical .22 LR ammo available. I think the 60-grain Aguila stuff is about the only stuff that shoots decently from a 1:9 barrel, such as a converted .223 as I mentioned before. Anyway, here's the page with the Specifications link at the bottom. http://www.kimberamerica.com/rifles/kimber1722/svt.php

Douglas
02-12-2008, 07:15 AM
My club has a 100yd benchrest .22lr match that I use a factory hvy barrel 40X; it has a mid-barrel and a Hoehn tuner on it. When I did my testing and tuner setting I tried several different velocity ammo at 25yds. I found a few that did pretty good, but when I went out to 100yds, the best of what I had on hand was Eley Biathlon @ 1083fps. Not sure if the Biathlon made the difference, but that was the only higher speed stuff I had at the time. I have since gotten some black box @ 1080 but haven't tried it yet. Thanks, Douglas

TexasJoe
02-12-2008, 09:30 AM
Thanks friends,at least I know my twist rate,Kimber should fix their site! I will try biathalon too.Joe.

plumbago
02-12-2008, 03:05 PM
Texas Joe: I don't disagree much with the idea that match or standard velocity ammo may be better in alot of rifles concerning accuracy. But there can be exceptions, for instance my old original 30" barreled Ballard .22. At 100 yds range a good quality hi-velocity ammo always is more accurate. My take on this is it takes more velocity to overcome the barrel resistance of the 30" length, and still have enough velocity to stabilize the bullet to 100 yds. For me Lapua Speed ace seems the best, but CCI MiniMagHP also works very well..............best regards Plum

_Shorty
02-12-2008, 03:08 PM
Wow, that's one long barrel! They say a typical standard velocity round gets the highest velocity from a barrel that's about 16" long and slows after that, so your thoughts are probably on target, as it were.

BrentD
02-12-2008, 04:14 PM
Plumb,
My 29.5" barreled Martini shot MUCH better with subsonic Lapua Midas L than with any high velocity. It would average just a smidge over 1"/10 shots at 100 yds with many targets considerably better than that. High velocity would not hold 2" ever, and I ran an awful lot of lead through that rifle.

I did my best to test the "slowing" hypothesis but could not verify it. I doubt it matters much if at all. Longer barrels were definitely faster with high velocity, but the same (not slower) as shorter barrels with standard velocity ammo.

The most accurate barrel I have ever had is my current 17" Lilja lined into my 28" #2 octagon Winchester barrel on a modified 85 Winchester.
Brent

_Shorty
02-12-2008, 05:01 PM
Here's a post (http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/showthread.php?t=5131) from a suppressor manufacturer that tested a Contender barrel by cutting it down an inch at a time and measuring muzzle velocity. He doesn't directly say that 16 inches was the highest speed, and that it was slower with the previous longer lengths. But what he does say is that once they got to 16 inches the velocity started dropping, I presume because there is still powder burning and the bullet is leaving the muzzle before it completes burning. And he also says accuracy started suffering at 12 inches. It would be interesting to find more data, for sure. I'll have to keep my eye out for a cheap gun with a long barrel to satisfy my own curiosity, if more data isn't already out there to be found.

edit - whoops, look just past halfway down the page for the post from Chessman.

pacecil
02-12-2008, 08:10 PM
From Shorty; where it goes from super-sonic speed back down to sub-sonic speed and the turbulence it experiences while doing so can and likely will upset the bullet's flight in a less than predictable manner, resulting in less accurate/repeatable points of impact.

Don't think there is any "turbulence" in transition from sonic to subsonic. What there is is a change in the drag coef. that causes a lesser effect of wind while the bullet is in subsonic flight. Bullet flight is NOT "upset" during the transition period.

DonMatzeder
02-12-2008, 08:14 PM
Wrong again Cecil....

pacecil
02-12-2008, 08:57 PM
Okay I'm willing to learn. Explain it to me.

tim
02-12-2008, 09:31 PM
This has been written and rewritten any number of times, probably best by Frank Tirrell, who supplied high speed photos. Essentially as the bullet goes back below supersonic it breifly becomes unstable for a distance, sometimes a fairly long distance. It is primarily that realization responsible for so much match ammo being sub sonic.
And Cec, please, God almighty, please, if you don't believe this , disagree quietly, all by yourself. Rumor has it that several board members have taken up a collection to get you a coach, a guy named Vito.

_Shorty
02-12-2008, 09:33 PM
About a third of the way down the page is a section titled "The transonic problem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_ballistics)" that has some details.

pacecil
02-12-2008, 09:59 PM
Here I go with my tail between my legs!!! Who's Vito?

TexasJoe
02-13-2008, 12:19 AM
Wow! thanks for all the info,I am glad to be a new member.It is fun to see alittle good ole bickering! I bought alot of ammo today,I willpost the results,thanks again everyone.texas Joe.

HuskerP7M8
02-13-2008, 06:53 AM
About a third of the way down the page is a section titled "The transonic problem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_ballistics)" that has some details.

Shorty,

Wikipedia is a wonderful source of information and I use it often, but it is not unusual to find errors there.

This is a quote from the Wikipedia page: "Every day hundreds of thousands of visitors from around the world make tens of thousands of edits and create thousands of new articles to enhance the knowledge held by the Wikipedia encyclopedia."

In other words, take the info there with "a grain of salt" and try to verify it elsewhere if possible. I remember once reading on Wikipedia that Leprechans were the cause of Global Warming. It was corrected quickly, but some of the more technical issues can gererate controversy and evolve over time.

That being said, I don't have a stance on the transonic stability issue. However, I have seen credible data from both sides of this issue.

pacecil
02-13-2008, 10:31 AM
I wasn't going to post here again as I ran off with my tail between my legs but the other posters kinda "coached" me and made me reconsider.

The transonic effect is described by some as "turbulence". It's not, rather it is a "change in the center of pressure". No air turbulence is involved with this. Also the change in C of P in a 22 rimfire bullet is very slight. It's somewhat like the change experienced in a ball, which is zero. So, okay, I admit to being about 20% wrong....but I was 80% right! Wait a minute, that must mean Don and Tim were 80% wrong and only 20% right!

plumbago
02-13-2008, 04:41 PM
BrentD: This old Ballard is being shot in east central Florida so it must be the salt air or density altitude causing the anomolee. One thing for sure I don't think I'll take the hack saw to the barrel to see what happens. Just kidding of course. Now not to confuse the issue, but this rifle shoots target grade and standard velocity extreamly well as long as you stick to 50 yds. Usually MOA (1/2") or less with an occassional flier, usually a dropped shot. Trouble is I have a pretty good selection of Eley, Lapaua, Wolf and some lesser brands in the target and standard velocity. Like I said it shoots great groups at 50, but when shot at 100yds with this same selection of SV the groups don't hold.....so maybe its the gun or just me, but I don't think so because like I said as I start using high velocity at the 100 yd range, the groups start comming back. As I go up in velocity from 1050/1070 to say 1135 fps from Aguila Standard extra or Win Dynapoints the groups get better. Even better yet as I go up to higher velocity using 1200 to 1250 or so from Fed AM or 510 the groups improve. The best groups very near MOA are obtained using CCI mini mag HP at around 1260 amd the best groups are with Lapua Speed Ace at 1300 something.......So its easy to say the Lapua is the best quality ammo in this range and that accounts for it, but I really don't have much of a choise of selection of high quality high velocity ammo. All I know is that regardless of which high velocity ammo all of it holds together better as far as groups go then the target or standard velocity in this 30" barrel. I'd sure like someone to give me a good explanation for this other than mine of bullet drag in the 30" barrel. Well maybe I just hack the barrel off and see..........Plum

BrentD
02-13-2008, 05:07 PM
Plum, I can't help ya with an explanation. I do know that my rifle shoots best with Eley Tenex EPS running at 1164 fps. Faster and slower does not do as well. This is true for 100 and 200 yds. I shoot mostly 200 however.

Brent

BillBrawand
02-13-2008, 05:16 PM
back yrs. ago when I BUILT MY RIFLES I CALLED REMINGTON THEIR ANS. WAS AFGTER 16 INCHES WAS OK I MADE MINE 18 INCHES USING FICCOHI 320 BLUE BOX I BROKE WORLD RECORD IN SPORTER CLASS IN DUBLIN GO. FEW YRS. AGO. SHOT 100 YD .160 IN OIL CITY PA. 1995 MARCH. RON DILL DID ARTICLE IN NBRSA NEWS SOME YEARS AGO ON SOME TARGETS I SENT HIM THAT WERE SHOT OVER 2WK. PERIOD . TEN TARGETS AVERAGED ABOUY .150 AT FIFTY YDS. FICCOHI ELEY SEEMED TO DO BEST IN MYU HART BARRELS. P.S. MY SPT. WAS 52WIN. MY TEN TARGETS WERESHOT WITH SAME GUN WITH HEAVIER STOCK. ALSO BROKE LIGHT VARMINT CLASS IN JOHNSON CITY TENN. ALONG WITH SOME OTHER SHOOTERS. BILL BRAWAND. WITH REM 40X.

tim
02-13-2008, 08:56 PM
Here I go with my tail between my legs!!! Who's Vito?

I believe he was with the Gambino shooting team out of NYC, kind of a close range specialist. By the way I'm not sure if you're 80% wrong or 20% wrong but I guarantee you're a 100% pain in the stones.

TexasJoe
02-13-2008, 10:57 PM
:confused: With all good standard velocity taget stuff awful in my 18" barrel kimber svt. But as soon as I put cci velocitors, winchester power points,and even federal match pistol bulk box at 1200 fps MUCH better,a few 1: groupes to 1 1/2 at 100 yards,but like the other fellow mentioned, not target stuff is the high velocity ammo! The really odd thing is my 22" barrel kimber does awesome with all the target rws,eley,lapula etc that my 18" does really bad! any advise? thanks.

karlssoni
02-14-2008, 08:11 AM
It would be interesting to swap barrels and see what happens.

plumbago
02-14-2008, 10:45 AM
Et al: I should clarify: when I said "all" HV ammo shoots better groups at 100yds from the 30" that's not exactly true.......Most of the bulk pac stuff, Experts, Fed 750 etc., don't hold up very well as far as groups go. I don't shoot Remington period....There are some others yet to try such as Win Power Points. Still the problem remains, with the exception of the Laupa speed ace or the Eley HV which I hav'nt tried yet, its really tough to find realy good quality High Velocity. Any other HV ammo suggestions? Plum