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Wheres-Waldo
02-10-2008, 08:06 PM
Ive got a Rem Model 700 short action, currently w/ a .308 bolt face I want to make something of.

Right now its as-is from the factory, and I was wondering, with lapped lugs, a trued up face...ect, will a 700 S.A. be a worthy action of a BR set-up?

Are there any issues that a 700 S.A. is synonomous for?

I know it doesnt come with the rigidity, or maybe even the bedding surface of a Hall, or Stolle, but for a competative, local BR set-up for a first BR rifle, would I be in the clear?

Dennis Sorensen
02-10-2008, 08:15 PM
It would get your interest going... a very accurate rifle can be built... but...

I believe the money spent on the action plus suitable action work, etc will be close the cost of a custom action... and down the road the custom action will always have higher resale value.... and I think the custom action will most likely have the edge on accuracy as well.

Bnhpr
02-10-2008, 09:24 PM
Ive got a Rem Model 700 short action, currently w/ a .308 bolt face I want to make something of.

Right now its as-is from the factory, and I was wondering, with lapped lugs, a trued up face...ect, will a 700 S.A. be a worthy action of a BR set-up?

Are there any issues that a 700 S.A. is synonomous for?

I know it doesnt come with the rigidity, or maybe even the bedding surface of a Hall, or Stolle, but for a competative, local BR set-up for a first BR rifle, would I be in the clear?

I'm building a 700 Hunter class for score rifle right now on a 700. What is attracted me to this discipline is the restrictions. 6x scope, and 10 lb restriction, I think it will be more about shooting and less about .100" groups

I say go for it. I am.

Heck, if I really get into it, I may buy a $1200 action, but for now, I'm playing with 700's.

But, what to heck do I know, I've never even shot in a benchrest match, so, I've set myself a goal to come in dead last this summer, and have fun doing it.

Ben

Wheres-Waldo
02-10-2008, 09:49 PM
Ben, I like your style....

alf
02-10-2008, 10:07 PM
Don't try and kid yourself on the accuracy requirements of
a competitive Hunter Bench gun.

There's no such thing as too much.

Al.

vmthtr in green
02-11-2008, 09:08 AM
Don't try and kid yourself on the accuracy requirements of
a competitive Hunter Bench gun.

There's no such thing as too much.

Al.

That 1/16" dot is pretty hard to hit and would love a gun that would consistently shoot in the .100". I also shoot a Rem 700 based HBR rifle and don't feel undergunned with it. I don't win, but I am competitive with the rest in our area.

Mike

Bnhpr
02-11-2008, 09:58 AM
That 1/16" dot is pretty hard to hit and would love a gun that would consistently shoot in the .100". I also shoot a Rem 700 based HBR rifle and don't feel undergunned with it. I don't win, but I am competitive with the rest in our area.

Mike

Is the winner always shooting a custom?

Bnhpr
02-11-2008, 10:02 AM
Don't try and kid yourself on the accuracy requirements of
a competitive Hunter Bench gun.

There's no such thing as too much.

Al.

Oh, I don't, I just have a wife with tight purse strings.

Putting my limited cash in a new lathe and good barrel this year.

Maybe get that BAT next year.

vmthtr in green
02-11-2008, 10:06 AM
Is the winner always shooting a custom?

Nor sir. It is pretty mixed at about 50-50 with Custom VS Rem builds. I would have to look back and see the match reports to give an accurate number.

Mike

flatlander
02-12-2008, 10:39 AM
Once upon a time, before the liberals that run flea-bay banned the sale of barrels, triggers, bolts, etc., you could sell the factory bolt out of a 700 for enough to buy an oversize PTG custom bolt and get rid of nearly all the bolt/receiver slop in a 700 action. If you have a lathe, tooling, & skill to true the action yourself, I believe it's worth building a LR prone rifle for highpower on a 700. When it comes to BR, I've got my doubts.

Don't get me wrong - I'd much rather see a beginner shooting a trued 700 than not shooting at all. But take a few minutes to browse "The List" and look at all the used BR rifles for sale at reasonable prices before you tell me that "There's no way I can afford a rifle built on a custom action." By the time you pay someone who is actually capable of doing a good job to true a 700 - plus the cost of the 700 action/donor rifle - and all the parts to make it competitive in BR, you're going to be better off buying a used BR rifle. This from a guy who currently owns three nice LR prone rifles built around 700s - but I did all the work myself, rather than pay someone else to do it. And, I'm in the process of upgrading my LR prone battery by adding a couple of rifles built around BAT 3L actions.

alf
02-12-2008, 07:07 PM
Your money outlay is the same on barrels,stocks, and triggers.
Why cut corners with the action?
Unless you can do the work yourself, sell the 700, put that cash towards
a custom action, and cry once.
Or, buy a good used gun with a custom action, with the idea it will need a new barrel.
A 700 CAN be competitive, a custom WILL be.

05 and 06 Wis. State Hunter match combined:
77 shooters, 13 Rem's, the rest custom.

Al.

vmthtr in green
02-12-2008, 07:10 PM
05 and 06 Wis. State Hunter match combined:
77 shooters, 13 Rem's, the rest custom.

Al.

See how good my memory is, I stand corrected, thanks Al.

Mike

alf
02-12-2008, 07:18 PM
But a stat for the other team:

In 06, Mike took 2nd in the 2 gun with a 700.

3rd was shot with one, also.

Wind tends to even things out sometimes.

Al.

Bnhpr
02-14-2008, 07:02 PM
Good info I thought.

3 B's of shooting.

http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek063.html

alinwa
02-15-2008, 12:25 AM
Where's,


Before you get misled by the "Rem will shoot" idea let's put some things in perspective.........I agree wit' alf BTW, he told ya' good.


To actually get the rifle to shoot as accurately as a custom action will take some money, in fact it'll take enough money to buy a used custom action..........BUT!!! ..........and this is a big BUT!.........The Remington may shoot as ACCURATELY as a custom in theory, but it'll never shoot AS WELL! Pure ACCURACY is only part of the equation, the gun must also handle well. Trying to slick up a Rem so that it cycles like a custom will really ramp the price up. And trying to decipher whether the gun is trying to shoot or not is HARD!!! It's hard enough with the gun/bags on automatic let alone having to fiddle with the whole setup. With a custom rifle you can learn to shoot, with a customized Remington rifle you can chase your tail 'til the cows come home sometimes!


Here's the thing. A Rem will always be a fight in the bags...........I've just within the last year switched to shooting left-handed. After 35yrs of shooting from my right shoulder I'd developed a pretty fine presentation to the rifle.......OVER!!........ I'm now shooting from my left, I get a chance to re-learn all of the moves. I'm finding out all sorts of interesting things about human-to-gun-to-bag geometry. My BIGGEST fight right now is cycling the action without buggering my baggage. I have 5 Rem's and several others. The cocking effort on the Rem700 is just hideous after running a Borden or a BAT, I can't get over it. I'm fiddling with extensions and offsets for the Rem bolthandle.......I've completely reworked, polished and rehardened the cocking ramp...even tried lowering the pitch of the ramp as much as I dare. Polished firing pin body helps a lot......but I CANNOT get the 700's to within walking distance of a custom action. I CANNOT cycle a Rem700 action without rocking the rifle, especially with the little skinny hunter forearm......


Now, if you're doing the work yourself and you're willing to work for $3.00/hr, have at it.......but fah'GIDDABOUT all you've ever heard about just "lapping lugs" and "truing the face of the bolt". You've got to do EVERYTHING or nothing IMO.....





Remember, this is MY OPINION :):):) formed from spending LOTS of money on Remingtons and Remington clones.....





--You've got to sleeve the action for rigidity. (Or choose to barrel block the rifle... if you do this, mount the scope on the barrel block)
--You've got to align bore it to give yourself a centerline to work with and then true the action face and lug abutments to this centerline.
--You've got to find or force a centerline on the bolt, install "Borden Bumps" or sleeves on the front and rear of the bolt and face it to centerline.
--You've got to face the lugs front and rear to this same centerline and reset your clearances
--You've got to polish the firing pin shaft and replace the spring. Probably have to rework the entire assembly.
--You've got to extend the bolt handle to gain leverage. I also rework the cocking ramp at this point, a labor of love, ain't NO easy way IMO. This is icky-picky stuff.


And NOW you get to the real stuff. You've got to re-time the entire system. Cocking/trigger timing, extraction timing, bolt lug clearance and bolt-handle without buggering the rotation of the lug seats.


After this is done you get to fiddle with the shroud until you get it to quit flinging shots..........or not......who knows.

And it still won't shoot like a custom.


And fah'GIDDABOUT those windy days when the playing field is "leveled in your favor a little".....It ain't leveled ONE BIT! The dude with the smooth shooter will always have that much less to worry about, that much more time to spend riding the wind.... competitive HBR rifle need be every bit as accurate as a PPC group gun.


All or nothing IMO :)


opinionsby



;)



al

Spott3r
02-15-2008, 01:49 AM
Where'sWaldo and Ben,

Last year I was fortunate enough to shot HBR. It was a hoot and I am very glad I did.
I used mostly Federals Gold Medal Match 168gr HPBT. Near the end of the season I changed to the 175gr HPBT.
With the 175's I managed a 49 score.
The trigger had been worked on and was a crisp 3lbs.
Scope was the Leupold 6x.
As a beginner it was very helpful just to shoot and get to using wind flags.
I am always amazed at how accurate that rifle is. Even with the shorter barrel. It also improved my trigger control.
This year the LTR is put to the safe for Hunting season - Elk I hope.
I now know what great accuracy it is capable of and feel very comfortable with it. Especially when it's time to take it for a walk in the field.
I hope to get a good action and barrel my own rifle for this years HBR. The Lathe should be up in the shop in the next week.
Have fun,
Spot
John M. Paton
:D

Tesla
02-15-2008, 04:04 AM
The action is important, but the barrel is the key. Put together by a competenet gunsmith and the proper load, you are as good as anyone with a custom action! Exsamples are abundant. Rifles built on Savage actions win competitions! I know it sounds shocking! They raddle than a b...! A LOT of custom actions are "improved" copies of a REM 700! Well, with a "modified bolt handle" or 416SS or single shot or some other useless feature. They even make custom actions out of aluminum! I know most BR competitions are won by " the custom action crowd", but what about the losers of those competitions- custom actions too:right? What about skill? My $200 Rem 870 shot as many doves and geese as my $10,000 Beretta SO9!

Bnhpr
02-18-2008, 08:18 AM
Alinwa makes some really good points,especially about ergonomics. thanks Al.

Here is some interesting stats about what people are having success with.

http://www.pa1000yard.com/results/toplists.php?cls=Light+Gun&grsc=Score&topct=100&year=2007

h-bar
02-18-2008, 10:32 AM
You should have had that toplist sorted by group size rather than score!!!

Bnhpr
02-18-2008, 11:07 AM
You should have had that toplist sorted by group size rather than score!!!

http://www.pa1000yard.com/results/results.php?cls=Light+Gun&week=10&sortby=Group&showshoots=No&tops=No&topct=10

Is this better? Pretty much 50/50 for BAT and Remington in the top 2 groups per relay, with a few other scattered in there.

I still think the action is less important then the shooter/barrel/gunsmith.

This is a good data set to work though.

Ben

chino69
02-18-2008, 12:05 PM
Everyone's comments here with regards to custom actions is good advice to be heeded. I have several trued Remington 40X actions, sleeved bolts, etc. and the next venture will be a true custom action. The only thing I can say in favor of going the Remington route is that, if you don't have the initial cash outlay, you can perform the accuracy enhancements in incremental steps. At the end, you still have a trued Rem. action and the price will be the same or close to that of a true custom.
Chino69

Octopus
02-18-2008, 04:14 PM
I have a very expensive 40X. It started life at a discounted price of only $1200+ shipping and etc. Added a Edge stock, two new triggers, action work a new barrel. An then new firing pin and springs. The list gos on. I try not to add up the $. But I passed $3,000 a long time a go.


My Panda was very cheap. $2,000 with two new barrels. Rifles and barrels were all from Jim Boden. I got the rifle from the orginial owner who was always winning with barrel #1. It was a proven shooter.

The Panda has been perfect. Load it up and go shoot. Nothing to work on but the loads. I am now up to barrel #5. When I want to shoot tight I use the Panda.

The Panda can be boring. Nothing to work on. It always shoots. If the group is to big I have to take the blame. But with the Rem 40X "do it myself" project there is always something to do and something to buy. And if the group is a little large I can always find issues other than the shooter to blame. The Rem 40 is just plain fun. And I am always finding new barrels to play with.

alinwa
02-19-2008, 12:26 AM
Ya' know??? Odd as it is, I happen to agree with Octopus that a Rem project can be "more fun" ............... that truly good shooting rifle can be "boring". I took a 6PPC varmint hunting once and had it set up where the squirrels were all within 300yds. Boring :) although once the wind picked up it got somewhat challenging. (also it must be noted that beyong 300yds the 14twist 6PPC is wort'less as tits on a boar hog.....)


building a Rem from the ground up and getting it to actually shoot well is rewarding project, a learning experience.


That said, if you want to learn to SHOOT, nothing can beat a well made custom rifle. A rifle made from a custom action.


I'm an inveterate experimenter. I first got a true 6PPC just to use it as a baseline. I now use a 6PPC to try to learn to read the wind and to use on ANY day with ANY cartridge being tested just to baseline the conditions. I'm lost in any project without I've got a trusty Borden 6PPC close at hand just to tell me what's going on out there. A while back a guy brought an AR50 50BMG out to the 300yd range. It was a blustery day and he was trying to "sight it in". I tried to shoot it for him to see where it was but was lost until I'd set up a good shooting rifle next to it.



Now beyond 300yds it's anybody's ballgame and the 6PPC doesn't do much good. I'm learning to shoot the tight-twist 6BR for baselining at longer range. There's still plenty of room for experimentation at long range BUT........it's awful hard to evaluate stuff with those gaps in the flag readout. In the end I have to drop back to 100yds and a slew of flags more often than not. At least at 100yds with four flags and a Beggs Wind Probe I can sometimes SEE what I've done wrong! :)



When it's all said and done........I'll just betcha' that if the money's on the table Ol' Eight-legger will reach for that Boring Borden what???




LOL


al

sundance
02-19-2008, 09:26 AM
Al,

Could you expand on you comments:

"--You've got to polish the firing pin shaft and replace the spring. Probably have to rework the entire assembly.
--You've got to extend the bolt handle to gain leverage. I also rework the cocking ramp at this point, a labor of love, ain't NO easy way"

Are you polishing the firing pin tip were it goes through the bolt face or the shoulder / spring stop and the bolt bore? or both?

Are you blending and polishing the tool marks out of the ramp or changing the ramp shape/angle?

Thanks
MG

alinwa
02-19-2008, 12:59 PM
Weirdly enough, polishing the SHAFT of the firing pin dramatically reduces bolt-lift. By replacing the wobbly and prone-to-binding factory spring with a nice straight one and polishing the shaft of the firing pin and the ends of the spring, you'll find bolt lift to be reduced. I'm experimenting with the use of a brass washer on both ends of the spring..........to anyone who understands my point, help me out with this experiment??? Try this with me???


Also, if you're gonna' run competitively using hot PPC-type loads you must reduce the diameter of the firing pin tip to eliminate blanking. This requires that the bolt be bushed.


Re the ramp, yes to both. And often it needs to be re-hardened as well.



al

ultramagmed
02-22-2008, 12:30 PM
This requires that the bolt be bushed.


What is done when a bolt is "bushed"?

alinwa
02-22-2008, 07:32 PM
"Bushing" the bolt generally means that you've decreased the diameter of the firing pin but occasionally I'll meet someone who calls a bushed bolt one which has "Borden Bumps" on it. I used it to mean that the firing pin diameter is reduced.


Bushing the firing pin is a process wherein the machinist bores the firing pin hole out and sleeves it to a smaller diameter, then he grinds the firing pin to reduce the DIAMETER (nothing to do with the length) or replaces the pin with a skinnier one. Reducing the diameter of the firing pin allows you to shoot hotter or higher pressure loads like the BR or PPC loads. Shooting hot loads in a rifle with a too-large firing pin will result in "piercing" or blanking primers.


Do a search of these forums to see some of the bushing processes described, bushing a firing pin is a fairly serious endeavor.



hth



al

Dennis Sorensen
02-22-2008, 07:56 PM
Here is a link to an older post I found searching for "bushing" and my name as I remembered posting it...

http://www.benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43901

... and Al, you said "piercing" ... LOL :D ... you are getting more mellow...

alinwa
02-23-2008, 02:35 AM
Yeahh I said "piercing" with "quotation marks" ...... :D ...... ONLY because it's been accepted terminology for so long. We're working to change that :)


Change takes time...


Mellow??? I wasn't gonna' light up until some hoser jumped in with "but, but, but won't making the firing pin smaller make it more prone to pierce primers?"

that was bait, you blew my setup :D:D:D


al