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BigMacky
02-10-2008, 10:18 AM
How is Eley Biathlon Labeled? Does it include a velocity? And has anyone chronographed any lately and knows how accurate the label velocity is compared to the velocity that is measured? Are there different Speeds available?

Thanks .... Fred

ThaiBoxer
02-10-2008, 12:40 PM
I don't think it is in their current product line. I still have the last I was able to buy, it shoots well in my Benchmark barrel. It was boxed with a blue label and says Biathlon EPS. Different speeds were available, I tested several lots. I have no idea how the measured velocity compares to the label, and even if I had info it would probably not be of use to you in determining anything.

If you find a source let me know, I'd like to test some more.

Best,

BigMacky
02-10-2008, 12:43 PM
Hey Ben ...

Yeah I know they dropped it .... I'm not looked for a quantity of it .... what I need is something that shoots chronographed around 1085-1090 ... need about 2 bricks. (12 boxes at least)

Thanks .... Fred

brad541thb
02-10-2008, 02:21 PM
Most of the Eley Biathlon I have shot was in the 1063 to 1076fps range I believe. This ammo was awesome. Some say it was too fast, but I don't know. The stuff shot probably better than any other ammo in my Suhl barrel, and my Benchmark barrel as well. I shot the smallest 5 shot group I've ever shot with the Benchmark barrel that Gene Davis put on my Suhl last year with this ammo. The 1st group below is it. Outside to outside measured .280 at the widest point. I deducted .204 for bullet diameter. It looks even smaller viewing it in person. ;)

http://www.hunt101.com/data/546/medium/23790IMGP2216.JPG

brad541thb
02-10-2008, 02:39 PM
If you can find that lot number in the attachment, I'll guarantee it to shoot.

Brad

_Shorty
02-10-2008, 09:20 PM
In your gun.
If you can find that lot number in the attachment, I'll guarantee it to shoot.

brad541thb
02-10-2008, 10:26 PM
Shorty,

I believe any good barrel will know good ammo when it shoots it. ;)

That's why all the great lots of Eley are bought up faster than you and I can usually get to them.

_Shorty
02-11-2008, 02:08 AM
You take any random lot of Tenex, and any random gun, and you will get random results. The fact that you've found a lot that shoots good in a gun of yours is meaningless to anyone else, because there is no telling how it will shoot in any other gun. You could have found the absolute most consistent lot of ammunition ever produced, but if the bullet's a poor match for the bore in question, everything goes out the window. The only thing that ammunition X in gun Y tells you is how ammuntion X shoots in gun Y. How ammunition X is going to shoot in gun Z is an unknown until you actually shoot it in gun Z. You can indeed prove that ammunition X is capable of giving consistent performance, given the observation of its results from gun Y. But you cannot prove that ammunition X will be that good in any gun. Even if gun Z is also a proven performer with the right ammo, that does not in any way, shape, or form mean that ammunition X is going to also shoot well in gun Z. It is not an absolute. Each and every barrel is an island unto itself.

So, like I said, in your gun.

BigMacky
02-11-2008, 02:23 AM
Hi guys,

I need this ammo for a specfic test that I'd like to try. My main question is more about the velocity of Biathlon rather than it's accuracy. I'm looking for something that will chronograph somehwere above 1075fps .... the closer to 1085fps the better ... or even higher. :eek:

Thanks ... Fred

Douglas
02-11-2008, 05:27 AM
Fred, if my memory serves me, I think crono results of Eley was about 20fps higher than what is listed on the box label. I think the testing was done on this forum last summer. You ought to be able to get 2007 Biathlon from Gene Davis or the other guy(?), I've got a few boxes that are listed at 1083. I think Biathlon is all pretty much higher speed, by your post it sounds like you must have Biathlon; but could you use Match or Tenex that had the velocity you desire? Thanks, Douglas

BigMacky
02-11-2008, 05:38 AM
Hey Doug,

It doesn't have to be Biathlon .... what I need is ammo that actually shoots fast. (as close to 1085 as possible) I've shot some Black Box that showed "higher speeds" on the box but when chronographed did not always show higher "measured" speeds. And I know it's not the chronograph or how I am set up or using it.

I've heard that Biathlon generally shoots faster than Black or Red Box ... that's the only reason I'm asking about it.

I have some Black Box that is labelled at 1047 and measures 1049-1052 on the average partially down range and I need something that measures 1080-1085 or so.

Fred

Sanglen
02-11-2008, 05:49 AM
I found a batch of Eley Biathlon that worked really well in my barrel. I was looking for something with good consistency which I could use in prone-practice and not having to worry about distant flyers.

This particular batch of Biathlon shows statistical values which was better then any of the tenex-lots I had tested in my barrel during 2007. The reason for this is that Eley Biathlon is unsorted Tenex (normaly they produce Tenex from the five machines and sort away the ammo that doesnt stand the quality test and label it Match) but here they just decide to run a Biathlon-batch and dosnīt sort it. If you are lucky you can find a lot that has tenex-characteristics (or better) for a much better price.

Unfortunately Eley has decided to remove it from their 2008-program. Maybe they werent making enough money of it? Just my guess...I still have some 15000 shots left though so Im set for 2008:)

Attached is a statistical draft from my ammo-analysis. Standard-deviation and variation-coefficient (for exit-velocity) is lower then for the Tenex-lots I tested.. The graph was introduced in order to try to determine any connections between exit-veliocity and ammo-weight. I have found no such connection for the Eley-ammo. The Lapua-ammo however is a different story...it could be worth while to sort your good Lapua-ammo (Midas, Master, Biathlon:)

BigMacky
02-11-2008, 07:09 AM
Thanks Sanglen,

If I'm reading this right the speed on the ammo was 1074 and what you chronographed was between 330.6 and 334.3 meters/second which is 1084 to 1096 feet/second ... is that correct?

Did you by chnace chrono any other lots?

Thanks ... Fred

Sanglen
02-11-2008, 10:33 AM
yea that right, I was averageing about 1085 to 1090for that lot. Which of course is highly dependent on the barrel you use.

I "chrono" all my lots looking for small exit-velocity deviations in combination with small round groups. I havnīt tried any other Eley Biathlon yet, got lucky and found a good batch that workes well for me at the moment.

On the tests I have done the last 5 months it has been fairly easy to identify the flyers as shoots with a deviating exit-velocity, I would probably contribute 85-90% of my flyers to inconsistent group-velocity...and the rest...yea well...Im getting a concentricity-gague this spring, since I have a feeling that that might do the trick...let you know in 6 months:)

_Shorty
02-11-2008, 03:57 PM
I thought it was generally agreed that any inconsistency in concentricity was taken care of by a tight match chamber anyway.
Im getting a concentricity-gague this spring, since I have a feeling that that might do the trick...let you know in 6 months:)

Douglas
02-11-2008, 05:07 PM
Fred, my memory isn't the best so I did a search and it was you who did the chronograph testing last May. I know you do a lot of experimenting, different things; I take my hat off to you, you have more ambition than most folks. I'm not being a smart ass, just curious, what are you trying to accomplish this time?

PS: pretty sure you can get all the Biathlon you want from the usual suspects. Thanks, Douglas

missing
02-11-2008, 06:43 PM
there is only one thing I can say about the Eley Biathlon that I have shot - shoots good when it goes off. I average 4 misfires per 100 - but the ones that fire drive tacks - just alittle disconcerning in a match to hear that click.
you all have a good day now - missing - cdpersons

BigMacky
02-11-2008, 06:51 PM
Douglas ...

Not sure about the ambitiuous .... there are those that would say I have too much time on my hands ... but Thanks

What I'm testing is this ... I'm sure everyone has been reading about the Calfee method of finding the correct tuner weight by shooting two ammos with different velocities and getting them to group into a single group.

Well that one made me "bite" and I was trying to figure out some way that I could increment my tuner in small weight intervals so I could test it out. Well I'm no machinist but a friend of mine Roger Von Ahrens is .... so I asked Rog if he could make me this "thing" that I described. He says sure. Couple of hours later he calls me back and says .... I've been thinking about that tuner with incremental weights that you asked me for .... well I think I mught have something in mind that works better .... and he sure did.

I got the first prototype and can't wait to get my hands on the ammo that I need to test it out .... Here's a picture of it ... it goes on the end of a Harrell Tuner ... first you add a 1 oz adapter and then you have weights that weigh 5, 3, 2 ,1 and 1/2 ounce. That lets you increment your tuner from 9 ounces all the way up to 20.5 in 1/2 ounce incerments. You don't even need tools cause they screw together. Not only that, but they look nice enough to use them full time on your rifle once you find the right weight.

Here's a picture of one ....

http://www.cyberfanatics.com/weights.jpg

Kent Owens
02-11-2008, 06:57 PM
Fred,
What is the length and contour of your barrel? Just curious. If it's an .850-.875 diameter and between 24-26" long I got a feeling about 15 ozs. total weight will work well once it's dialed in. Keep us updated on how the experiment goes. Good luck.

BigMacky
02-11-2008, 08:19 PM
Hey Kent ....

This one is 25" long and is a straight taper measuring .903" .... I'm thinking somewhere around 16 ounces.

Fred

Kent Owens
02-11-2008, 08:29 PM
Fred,
I'm guessing it'll take less weight than you think. May not take as much weight as a straight .850 barrel. You'll figure it out once you begin testing. Best of luck.

BigMacky
02-11-2008, 08:40 PM
Hey Kent,

I don't have any hands on experience figuring what weight tuners go on what barrels ... I would have thought that a barrel with more mass would need a heavier tuner to stop standing waves ... sound like you're saying that this is not the case??? What's the key here?

Fred

brad541thb
02-11-2008, 09:26 PM
Shorty,

I don't know you from Adam or Eve, but the more you post the more I think you haven't a clue what the frick you are talking about. :confused:

I believe your the same guy that came on here and said bad things about Joe Cowan who bent over backwards to please you, but you were too much of a jerk to help.

_Shorty
02-11-2008, 10:10 PM
Do you only have one gun? I imagine you have several. Do they all shoot as well as the next when you feed them the exact same lot of ammo? Or do they all behave differently? I'm quite sure if you ask any competitive shooter with several competitive guns that they have seperate lots set aside for each gun. That seems to be the consensus of people both here and elsewhere, and in anything I've read. Each gun is tested with different lots until they find a lot that *that* gun likes, and then they buy as much of that lot as they can to keep *that* gun happy. And then they go testing for the next gun, where they just start all over and do the same thing. Find a lot that *that* gun likes. I sincerely doubt you will find anyone here or in any other shooting sport that takes one gun, tests ammo with it, and then feeds each and every gun they own that particular lot that proved good in that particular gun. What's next? After they find a tuner setting for one gun they change all the tuners on all their other guns to those same settings because, hey, it worked there, so that's *the* setting! Same thing. You lot test for a particular gun/barrel because all guns/barrels are different. Quite a strange thing to contest.
I don't know you from Adam or Eve, but the more you post the more I think you haven't a clue what the frick you are talking about. :confused:

brad541thb
02-11-2008, 10:34 PM
Talk to the guys that shoot a lot better than you or I that know more as well about finding a killer ammo, and I believe they will tell you that in the same conditions that was tested from one great gun, barrel, and shooter who knows what they are doing, and they sell some of that same great ammo or tell another great shooter about the particular lot, more times than not that same ammo will shoot very well in the other persons gun.

I talked to others who know killer ammo. Killer ammo more times than not will be recognized by one precision barrel to the the next. That's usually why more barrels than not will usually win with the Eley ammo. If you doubt that, go look at all the guns and shooters who shoot Eley ammo vs Lapua or any other brand. Now explain that one smarty. It's not a brand thing but rather a good ammo thing being shot with precison barrels with good shooters who know what they are doing. Eley ammo for the most part is doing what the other brands aren't, and that's competing on a national level day in and day out. The fact is that they are making the most consistant ammo right now and the same thing can be said for last year and the year before that.

Brad

ThaiBoxer
02-11-2008, 11:02 PM
Hey Fred, if you are still looking for Biathlon drop me an email or PM.

_Shorty
02-11-2008, 11:36 PM
Brad, you're saying "with Eley ammo" as if that's all that mattered. Grabbing the box that says Eley. It's not that simple. I already stated that competitive shooters will lot test for a gun, so why you're saying it back to me as if it was something I never said is puzzling. The fact remains that guns and ammo lots need to be matched. That's why those shooters lot test. And that's why they stock up on a lot they find to work well in that gun. The fact that any given lot works well in one gun does *not* guarantee it will shoot that well in another gun. And I believe that's what you're trying to say. All those shooters you're talking about would tend to disagree with that statement. They all test lots until they find what works in one gun. And then they start all over again for the next gun. They may indeed start out with a lot they know works well in gun A, but they know all too well that it isn't necessarily going to give them the same performance in gun B. It might, but chances are good that it won't, and they'll still be in search of a lot that shoots to their satisfaction in gun B. And gun C. And gun D, etc, etc. There is no 'golden lot' that will shoot well in every single gun you put it in. And that last statement is what I believe you're trying to say. But everything I've ever read doesn't support it at all, from very well-known gunsmiths and all those incredibly talented shooters with incredible records shooting with incredible equipment. I didn't say a single thing about my own shooting or my own equipment or my own experience. I'm relaying everything I've read, which is all out there for you and anyone else to read, including right here on this forum. No matter how hard you try to convince me that there are 'golden lots' I will not believe it, not when there is all this other related experience that disagrees with that statement. Sorry, dude. They all say lot-to-gun (and/or lot-to-barrel, which is basically the same) tends to be a one-off, and switching guns means the search begins again.

Douglas
02-12-2008, 06:45 AM
Fred, I gotta hand it to you, man you are on top of it. I was curious about the same thing ever since Calfee posted his method of setting a tuner. He uses Eley ammo of two different velocities, 40fps difference. I think he uses 1035 and 1075, but I think anything as long as it's 40fps difference is okay, I have some 1080 and some 1040 I was going to try whenever it warms up here. I don't think he uses a chrono either, just whatever the box says. The one thing he never explained though is he does it at 42yds; I wonder if that's by design or by circumstance where he shoots? it makes a difference where I shoot because our targets are set at 50yds, not sure whether that 8yds makes a difference? If it does matter into the equation, I can set up a tempoary target at 42yds.

Speaking of Calfee, remember a while back when he posted about a tuner that you could only adjust by adding/subtracting weights? Fred, your design is very much along the same lines, I like it a lot. That must have been quite a machineing job to produce the various weights. I think you got something there; keep up the good work.

Thanks, Douglas

_Shorty
02-12-2008, 07:35 AM
Well then, to stay on topic, I don't even follow Calfee's logic in setting up a tuner in this fashion. He wrote that this would guarantee the muzzle is stopped, but it seems to me that this is just an indication that it is actually behaving differently for both speeds. The differing speeds, with all else being equal, should result in a different POI. Launching any given projectile at different speeds, but same angle, should result in differing points of impact. So if you do find a tuner setting that makes a 1040 ft/s bullet hit the same place as a 1080 ft/s bullet, wouldn't that mean that you've only managed to find the setting that places the muzzle slightly lower when the faster bullet leaves? Seems to me that if you did indeed find a setting that stops the muzzle dead so it is in the exact same position all the time then this would make it even easier to see the different POI that you would get from the different velocities. If you had the perfect gun that did not move at all and launched the bullet absolutely perfectly every time, and you had the perfect bullet that flew perfectly every time, and had perfect conditions, no wind, etc, then a 1040 ft/s bullet is never going to have the same POI as a 1080 ft/sec bullet out at 42 yards, or 50 yards, or 100 yards. By the time the bullet reaches those distances there should be more than enough difference in POI to easily be observed and measured. Spending a few minutes with an online ballistics calculator (http://www.eskimo.com/~jbm/calculations/traj/traj.html), punching in an Eley Tenex EPS bullet of .224" diameter, 0.150 BC, no wind, a 100 yard zero, and results at 1 yard intervals showed easily noticable differences in rise, even with its single-decimal accuracy, even at the 42 yard mark.

I forget the finer details of Calfee's experiment right now, so I don't know if he was using a 42 yard zero too, or a 50 yard, or whatever else. But if he was indeed zeroing at 42 yards as well as having the target at 42 yards, then I guess the difference in POI in that situation would be a good deal smaller anyway, from what I can tell from fiddling with data and that calculator. There would still be some difference, but I guess in the real world there's the real world variations to deal with anyway. I guess it's hard to argue with results, and he seems to be very happy with the results he gets while following his method. But it just seems to me, keeping perfect theoretical ballistics in mind, that this method would still leave some room for improvement. Did he say this was a good starting point? Or that after doing this you were done fiddling with the tuner? Guess I should go read that one again and refresh my memory.

BigMacky
02-12-2008, 09:00 AM
Hi Douglas,

You need to thank Roger Von Ahrens for this design and the machining job. My first thoughts only got Roger to thinking and figuring out the "right way" to make this setup.

Without getting into an "ad" .... you can contact Roger at Roger@robvon.com

He can fill you in on all the details .... Fred

Joe Friedrich
02-12-2008, 11:45 AM
Fred, Roger did a fine job with these weights, and Thanks to the both of you. This is a very easy system to use and it will help those looking for small increments. I've had the pleasure of testing one for Roger.

Take Care.....Joe

_Shorty
02-12-2008, 01:22 PM
Douglas, huh?
What I'm testing is this ... I'm sure everyone has been reading about the Calfee method of finding the correct tuner weight by shooting two ammos with different velocities and getting them to group into a single group.

Tom C.
02-13-2008, 03:11 PM
midway shows em for sale on their site. box, brick, case.